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In fact, I would say that Mr. BERNACCHI, to preclude such measures. Mr. BERNACCHI's Motion was intended as an effort to control the situa- tion which at present exists and which at present is out of control. In spite of the fact that we are at present in a situation which is out of control, still find no evidence to prove that meat and fish sold in the fresh air is any less hygienic than meat and fish sold in markets. Sometimes the markets are just as dirty as the stalls outside, and therefore I do not see that we have an argument, and at least we have no evidence on this point.

I think we must be realistic, we have either got to accept the situation where hawkers are going to sell meat and fish without control, or we are going to accept a realistic solution and organize and have hawkers selling fish and meat in hygienic conditions with a certain amount of control. Therefore, I am going to support the Motion.

DR. DENNY M. H. HUANG:-Mr. Chairman, the fact that hawking has become such a serious problem here is itself a pathological phenom- enon of our society. Having our streets and neighbourhoods disturbed by all sorts of noxious sounds and smells and sometimes virtually blocked to traffic is a feature hardly imaginable in any prosperous industrialised city such as we claim Hong Kong to be. However, in the absence of a modern labour law to lay down a minimum wage for our workers and the lack of an adequate social welfare system, we have been obliged to tolerate the existence of hawking in certain trades, cooked food stalls among others. Last week, I visited several markets in our resettlement estates and also the Mong Kok market and found that a fresh fish stall occupies far more space than usual, the site is invariably wet and dirty and the fish offal smelly and serving as an attraction to flies.

With these facts in mind, though I appreciate the good intention of our senior Member, Mr. BERNACCHI, I am compelled to object to this Motion on the following grounds:·

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It is unhygienic as flies are the most important insects which transmit diseases. While we sympathize with the lot of un- licensed hawkers, we must not fail in our duty to safeguard the health of the general public.

It is undesirable, for it occupies far too much space where space is so precious and fresh fish stalls, as I said before, always flood the site and create a stench.

It is unnecessary because in every market and resettlement estate fresh provision shops are always available. In fact, I have seen a licensed meat shop used merely as a storeroom while transactions were made in the street so as to compete with unlicensed street hawkers.

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It is unfair to licensed fresh provision shop owners. Council has laid down many requirements for such applicants, such as plentiful water supply, adequate drainage etc., and it would appear very unfair to them if we were to license hawkers who can hardly meet our regular requirements.

The

Mr. Chairman, I agree that there is a necessity to relax the licensing of certain hawker trades but there must be a limit. With the aforesaid remarks, I am regretfully obliged to oppose the Motion.

THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF MEDICAL AND HEALTH SERVICES: -May I say a few words on the Motion from the public health point of view though at the risk of repeating some of the remarks of earlier speakers.

It is well known that fish decompose readily and should therefore be handled in a cleanly manner and used as fresh as possible. Bacterial poisoning from fish can occur. The fish may be diseased, or the bacteria may gain access and grow as the result of contamination. Proper facilities for handling and storage of the commodity would be lacking in the case of hawkers and it would be difficult for them to prevent spoilage and to avoid the sale of unsound food to the public.

Furthermore, cutting and cleaning of fish is an essential part of the service in the local fish retail business, and hawkers will simply have to give comparable service if they want to sell any fish at all, and there is, in my opinion, no reason to suppose that hawkers will be contented with selling the small and cheaper species of fish only, as they will inevitably have to compete with licensed fish retailers in markets and fresh provision shops. It would not be difficult to visualize that without the most basic facilities for cleansing and for disposal of the extremely offensive refuse, very serious sanitary and fly nuisance will be created.

I personally feel that it will not be in the interest of public health to permit the hawking of fresh fish, and therefore find myself unable to support the Motion.

MR. JAMES M. H. Wu:-Mr. Chairman, this afternoon we have heard arrangement for and against the present Motion to allow hawkers to sell fresh fish. Well, I hate to think that because there is still so much smuggling of drugs and narcotics going on, and because we have not been able to control 100% the trafficking of drugs as well as opium smoking, that we should give up all laws controlling such. I need, of course, not mention the legalizing of prostitutes that Dr. HUANG proposes.

MR. PETER C. K. CHAN:-Mr. Chairman, I have no prepared speech. I came to listen, and I will try to see both sides of the coin, while I stand on my feet and on the ground and look at the hawker situation.

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