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MR. BERNACCHI:-And does the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee agree, not only in new areas, but also in old areas?
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, I have not visited enough of the old areas to really make an estimation of what the situation is, but I can say this much, that there does seem to be a greater demand in new developing areas and also in industrial areas for cooked food stalls operating under hygienic conditions. And there has been quite a number of unlicensed cooked food stalls which have been seen in the industrial areas and in newly developing areas. What the number may be in the older areas, I am not in a position to say. Perhaps, Mr. BERNACCHI with his wide experience could give me some information. (Laughter).
MR. BERNACCHI :—At the invitation of the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee, I could, indeed, say that they are on the increase everywhere in Hong Kong without any really effective steps being taken to control them. Now, coming down to the answer to the third part of my question, the Hawker Control Force only operates really in certain limited areas, and is the answer in respect of the Hawker Control Force confined to those areas in which it does operate?
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, as far as the Chairman of the Hawker Management Select Committee and I are aware, they are supposed to operate in certain designated areas. As you are aware, Mr. Chairman, we have discussed this matter with you. There is general agreement that in most of the areas where the Hawker Control Force are operating the morale and efficiency leaves much to be desired. I believe you, yourself, are very aware of this, Mr. Chairman, and we know that you are taking effective measures as fast as you are able to, to bring about an improvement in the situation.
MR. BERNACCHI: --The object of my question, Mr. Chairman, was that, for instance, in Shau Kei Wan the Hawker Control Force controls a hawker bazaar. There are illegal cooked food hawkers a few yards away from the hawker bazaar, and in Chai Wan the Hawker Control Force controls the hawker bazaars, there are illegal cooked food stalls a few yards away from the controlled bazaars. Does the Hawker Control Force have any control over these illegal hawkers only a few yards away from the bazaars which they control?
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, in answer, a few yards away from the main question, I take it. (Laughter).
CHAIRMAN:-The position is that they do have their specific areas and they do not go outside them as far as I am aware. If they did, it would not be a question of "a few yards"; it would be a question of a few yards further and a few yards further until they would find themselves round the next block.
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MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, in further answer to what you have just said, may I say that they are already sufficiently ineffective in the areas that they are supposed to control and that is why they do not go farther.
MR. BERNACCHI-I agree in fact with both Mr. SALES and yourself, Mr. Chairman, that it is not concerning the question, and the question has not been answered. The question is, to quote, "does the Council through the Urban Services Department in any way control the conditions of these unlicensed stalls", not, "prosecute for being unlicensed cooked food stall holders." The object of the question was clearly "does the Council, accepting that there is this enormous number of illegal cooked food stalls in operation in Hong Kong, control the conditions under which they operate, or not?"
CHAIRMAN:--I would say "no," Mr. BERNACCHI. If they are unlicensed, they would be prosecuted.
MR. BERNACCHI:--But as, in practice, prosecution is of doubtful benefit, could consideration be given to controlling the standards from which they operate?
CHAIRMAN: -I think the answer is contained in Mr. CHEONG-LEEN'S reply somewhere, where he said that he had asked for a review of the situation to be carried out. This is in liaison, I think, with the Environmental Hygiene or Food & Food Premises Select Committee; to see if a list of conditions can be worked out under which cooked food stalls can be satisfactorily operated, perhaps not as strictly as at present, although probably on special sites.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I had hoped that this portion of my reply would have been sufficient to explain to Mr. BERNACCHI the position, not that he himself is not even more fully aware of it than I am, but I might add a few words by way of additional explanation and it is this, that in Chai Wan in particular there is a large number of illegal hawkers and also illegal cooked food stall hawkers. Many of them have been there for years, seven or eight years and they have been tolerated. It was originally the purpose of the Hawker Control Force there to bring the situation under control and despite the fact that there are over 20 members of the Hawker Control Force there, there is still a large number of illegal cooked food stalls operating in Chai Wan. This matter is now being reviewed by the Urban Services Department and it is hoped that as the Department gets additional liaison staff, and as steps are taken to strengthen and improve the efficiency of the Hawker Control Force, a greater degree of control of cooked food stalls, particularly improving the standards of licensed cooked food stalls and clamping down on unlicensed cooked food stalls, will take place. By that time I hope we will be able to give some priority to Chai Wan.
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MR. BERNACCHI:-And does the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee agree, not only in new areas, but also in old areas?
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, I have not visited enough of the old areas to really make an estimation of what the situation is, but I can say this much, that there does seem to be a greater demand in new developing areas and also in industrial areas for cooked food stalls operating under hygienic conditions. And there has been quite have seen in the a number of unlicensed cooked food stalls which
industrial areas and in newly developing areas. What the number may be in the older areas, I am not in a position to say. Perhaps, Mr. BERNACCHI With his wide experience could give me some information. (Laughter).
MR. BERNACCHI :—At the invitation of the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee, I could, indeed, say that they are on the increase everywhere in Hong Kong without any really effective steps being taken to control them. Now, coming down to the answer to the third part of my question, the Hawker Control Force only operates really in certain limited areas, and is the answer in respect of the Hawker Control Force confined to those areas in which it does operate?
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, as far as the Chairman of the Hawker Management Select Committee and I are aware, they are supposed to operate in certain designated areas. As you are aware, Mr. Chairman, we have discussed this matter with you. There is general agreement that in most of the areas where the Hawker Control Force are operating the morale and efficiency leaves much to be desired. I believe you, yourself, are very aware of this, Mr. Chairman, and we know that you are taking effective measures as fast as you are able to, to bring about an improvement in the situation.
MR. BERNACCHI: --The object of my question, Mr. Chairman, was that, for instance, in Shau Kei Wan the Hawker Control Force controls a hawker bazaar. There are illegal cooked food hawkers a few yards away from the hawker bazaar, and in Chai Wan the Hawker Control Force controls the hawker bazaars, there are illegal cooked food stalls Does the Hawker a few yards away from the controlled bazaars. Control Force have any control over these illegal hawkers only a few yards away from the bazaars which they control?
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, in answer, a few yards away from the main question, I take it. (Laughter).
CHAIRMAN:-The position is that they do have their specific areas and they do not go outside them as far as I am aware. If they did, it would not be a question of "a few yards"; it would be a question of a few yards further and a few yards further until they would find themselves round the next block.
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MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, in further answer to what you have just said, may I say that they are already sufficiently ineffective in the areas that they are supposed to control and that is why they do not go farther.
MR. BERNACCHI-I agree in fact with both Mr. SALES and yourself, Mr. Chairman, that it is not concerning the question, and the question has not been answered. The question is, to quote, "does the Council through the Urban Services Department in any way control the con- ditions of these unlicensed stalls", not, "prosecute for being unlicensed cooked food stall holders." The object of the question was clearly "does the Council, accepting that there is this enormous number of illegal cooked food stalls in operation in Hong Kong, control the conditions under which they operate, or not?"
CHAIRMAN:--I would say "no," Mr. BERNACCHI. If they are un- licensed, they would be prosecuted.
MR. BERNACCHI:--But as, in practice, prosecution is of doubtful bencfit, could consideration be given to controlling the standards from which they operate?
CHAIRMAN: -I think the answer is contained in Mr. CHEONG-LEEN'S reply somewhere, where he said that he had asked for a review of the situation to be carried out. This is in liaison, I think, with the Environ- mental Hygiene or Food & Food Premises Select Committee; to see if a list of conditions can be worked out under which cooked food stalls can be satisfactorily operated, perhaps not as strictly as at present, although probably on special sites.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I had hoped that this portion of my reply would have been sufficient to explain to Mr. BERNACCHI the position, not that he himself is not even more fully aware of it than I am, but I might add a few words by way of additional explanation and it is this, that in Chai Wan in partic- ular there is a large number of illegal hawkers and also illegal cooked food stall hawkers. Many of them have been there for years, seven or eight years and they have been tolerated. It was originally the purpose of the Hawker Control Force there to bring the situation under control and despite the fact that there are over 20 members of the Hawker Control Force there, there is still a large number of illegal cooked food stalls operating in Chai Wan. This matter is now being reviewed by the Urban Services Department and it is hoped that as the Department gets additional liaison staff, and as steps are taken to strengthen and improve the efficiency of the Hawker Control Force, a greater degree of control of cooked food stalls, particularly improving the standards of licensed cooked food stalls and clamping down on unlicensed cooked food stalls, will take place. By that time I hope we will be able to give some priority to Chai Wan.
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