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MR. BERNACCHI:-I think the normal thing is that Mr. Hu has the last word generally, which he can exercise at this stage as the last word on the amended motion.

MR. SALES-Mr. Chairman, I would like to correct this. Mr. Hu has not got the last word on the amended motion, but he has got the last word on the motion that is before the Council to amend his own, because if the motion to amend his own were passed and it became the amended motion, then the right would pass to Mr. NG.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Is there any difference between what I said and what you said?

MR. SALES: -Yes, a vast difference, Mr. Chairman.

(Laughter).

MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, as regards the practical objec- tions raised by Dr. Woo, there is the small room beyond this Chamber. I think it is known as the Members' Room. It is used for various things including Members' use and it can easily be the interpreters' room. I do not think it would be very difficult to put a glass window in this room.

As regards the proposal now before the meeting to refer this motion back again to the Standing Committee-how many meetings have the various Select Committees had on this motion or the substance of this motion? Dr. Woo says that he was the Chairman of a special Ad Hoc Committee dealing with this subject. Mr. P. K. NG says that he is the Chairman of the Administration Sub-Committee that deals with this matter. Really, has not the time come for this motion to be debated and passed or not passed in public to-day, and not again have it sent back to more meetings in camera? I repeat my words in second- ing "Lo Yan Mo Darm". Are we elderly people? Have we no guts? I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the Members vote against this amend- ment to enable the main version to be further debated and passed or rejected to-day.

MRS. E. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, I am extremely reluctant not to support Mr. Hu's motion, because in principle I do support it, but I would like to support the amended motion proposed by Mr. NG for various reasons. First of all, unless we have Chinese Members on this Council, there does not seem to be any point in having simultaneous translation, but if we do have Cantonese speaking Members on the Council, then translation will automatically be necessary. The second point is that if we do have Cantonese speaking Members who cannot speak English, the earliest date on which this could happen would be 1971, and I think we should aim at getting this all ready for the next Election. In the meantime, 1970 might be a good date anyhow to introduce it. The third point I would like to mention is the possibility

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of having running commentaries made by Radio Hong Kong on our public meetings. These would reach a far larger audience than we could possibly sit in this building here. Finally as the proposals for simultaneous translation and the introduction of Chinese speaking Members into the Council are already being discussed in our considera- tions on the enlargement of the Council's scope, I cannot see any point at this moment in passing this motion which would prejudice our discussions.

MR. SALES: Sir, I am always a great supporter of Mr. Henry Hu, and to-day also I support his sentiments, Mr. Chairman. It is only on the question of timing that I cannot find myself in agreement with Mr. Hu. There are a few significant points. One, and this has not been brought out in the Council's discussion to-day, is that over a period of years the Council has moved steadily forward in the provision of services in the Chinese language. Virtually everything now is put out in the Chinese language, so much so, that a recent report, if I am not mistaken, was published also in the Chinese language. Secondly, the Council has discussed various ways and means of implementing the proposal for spoken Chinese in our meetings. We have thought that if it is a question of telling the greatest number of people in Hong Kong what goes on in this Council, then the story must be told in Cantonese, not in any other language, because otherwise you would create a serious problem of communication. The Council has agreed that it should be in Cantonese. Then the Council considered what would be the first and best means of achieving this task. Is it better to cater to the handful of people who come to our meetings, or to project the meetings to thousands of listeners? And, the Council agreed that it would be in the best interest to have the meetings relayed to the public as a whole. Thus, we have been moving steadily forward.

There are various other considerations brought out by Dr. Woo, the Chairman of the former Ad Hoc Committee, and Mr. NG, the Chairman of the particular Sub-Committee which is considering the question to-day. We know that we have to amend the Ordinance; that has to be done and that ought to be done without further delay. Then we know that we have got to train interpreters. It is a very difficult task and it ought to be done very carefully. Now, it is significant, Mr. Chairman, that the persons who are advocating that this matter be referred back to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council are Mr. Cantonese speaking people, indeed are Cantonese themselves. BERNACCHI has quoted in Cantonese that "old people have no courage”, that is the correct translation. May I likewise say to this Council that Mr. BERNACCHI and Mr. Henry Hu, in disregarding the views of our Cantonese members, say, in fact, to the public that "Poon Tei Keung m Laar (The local ginger is not hot)”. (Laughter). Is that not right? (Applause).

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