1967 — Page 193

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

Page 193 of 259

360

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

CHAIRMAN: ---This is Government practice and it reflects the desire not to limit the freedom of the individual unduly.

MR. BERNACCHI: -Without disclosing in any way the contents of the ten-year plan, is it practicable to implement this ten-year plan without considerably increasing the size of the Hawker Control Force?

CHAIRMAN: -No, Sir, this is a pre-requisite in implementing the plan.

MR. BERNACCHI: --The second part of my question dealt with the $100 increase. You, Sir, say that the difference in pay reflects the importance which Government places on the role policemen play in the community. I am right I think in assuming that this difference in pay existed before the $100 increase was given to members of the Police Force?

CHAIRMAN: -A difference existed. I am not an expert on this subject, but on recruitment of the constable in either of the Forces the basic pay was the same. After that, in each successive year, I believe that the police constable gained an advantage.

MR. BERNACCHI: -Could you, Sir, as Chairman of the Urban Council rather than as Director of the Urban Services Department, put up to Government the suggestion that Hawker Control Force personnel should also receive this $100 increase?

CHAIRMAN: -I would like to consider this matter in Standing Committee, and if it is the majority wish I will then do as directed by the Council.

MR. BERNACCHI: -Perhaps then, Sir, you would put this particular item for the Standing Committee?

CHAIRMAN: -Certainly.

MR. BERNACCHI: -We come now to a supplementary. You say, Sir, in answer to my third limb that something more will be required. Is the rest of your answer, that is from "strong representations have been made" to "with particular reference to the promotion ratios" an indication of what you mean by something more will be required?

CHAIRMAN: ---Yes, the meaning is that to raise the maximum age for recruitment from 25 to 30 years will bring a temporary benefit, a non-repeatable benefit, and something more than merely widening the field of recruitment is required. That something more could amount to provision of quarters, it could amount to better promotion ratios, it could amount to other things not specified.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

361

MR. BERNACCHI: -Are you aware, Sir, that the responsibility of the Hawker Control Force on the ground is very considerable. Could a suggestion be put before the Standing Committee that we should also represent to Government that the promotion rank for Constables on the ground after the recruitment stage is as Corporal?

CHAIRMAN: -This suggestion will also be included in the paper for Standing Committee.

DR. BELL: Mr. Chairman, could I ask a supplementary? You say in the beginning of your answer to Mr. BERNACCHI that the establishment of the Force is 442, does that mean there is no intention to increase the Force beyond that?

CHAIRMAN: ---No, Dr. BELL, there was a gap between strength and establishment until recently of more like 70 or 80 men than the present gap of 49. I am of the opinion that the establishment of the Force will have to be increased considerably, but there is little practical point in my proposing this as long as we are short on existing establishment. It is a question of timing as to when one begins to ask for an increase in establishment. I have no evidence that I should have difficulty in getting a reasonable increase if I ask for it.

DR. BELL: -Mr. Chairman, what is the number of hawkers these people are dealing with?

CHAIRMAN: -That I do not know, because they are not dealing with all the hawkers in the urban areas, they are limited to the control of 28 Hawker Control Force areas. I do not have figures today of how many hawkers there are in those areas.

DR. BELL: -Do you have the figure, Mr. Chairman, of the number of hawkers there are in the Colony, I mean licensed, fixed licences, and where they are likely to be?

CHAIRMAN: The Department has those figures; but to answer the question now: there are approximately 60,000 hawkers. We know of the existence of 33,000 licensed hawkers, and there may well be another 27,000 to 29,000 unlicensed hawkers, but that is an estimate.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: --Mr. Chairman, just a quick supplementary. In the first paragraph of your reply you say that the position is not quite as discouraging as it sounds, then you go on in the second paragraph you say these figures are not encouraging. So what is the situation? Is it discouragingly encouraging or encouragingly discouraging?

CHAIRMAN: -You have me there, Sir. The remark in the first paragraph means that a discouraging tendency has been slightly arrested.

Page 193 of 259

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Page 193 of 259 360 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL CHAIRMAN: ---This is Government practice and it reflects the desire not to limit the freedom of the individual unduly. MR. BERNACCHI: -Without disclosing in any way the contents of the ten-year plan, is it practicable to implement this ten-year plan without considerably increasing the size of the Hawker Control Force? CHAIRMAN: -No, Sir, this is a pre-requisite in implementing the plan. MR. BERNACCHI: --The second part of my question dealt with the $100 increase. You, Sir, say that the difference in pay reflects the importance which Government places on the role policemen play in the community. I am right I think in assuming that this difference in pay existed before the $100 increase was given to members of the Police Force? CHAIRMAN: -A difference existed. I am not an expert on this subject, but on recruitment of the constable in either of the Forces the basic pay was the same. After that, in each successive year, I believe that the police constable gained an advantage. MR. BERNACCHI: -Could you, Sir, as Chairman of the Urban Council rather than as Director of the Urban Services Department, put up to Government the suggestion that Hawker Control Force personnel should also receive this $100 increase? CHAIRMAN: -I would like to consider this matter in Standing Committee, and if it is the majority wish I will then do as directed by the Council. MR. BERNACCHI: -Perhaps then, Sir, you would put this particular item for the Standing Committee? CHAIRMAN: -Certainly. MR. BERNACCHI: -We come now to a supplementary. You say, Sir, in answer to my third limb that something more will be required. Is the rest of your answer, that is from "strong representations have been made" to "with particular reference to the promotion ratios" an indication of what you mean by something more will be required? CHAIRMAN: ---Yes, the meaning is that to raise the maximum age for recruitment from 25 to 30 years will bring a temporary benefit, a non-repeatable benefit, and something more than merely widening the field of recruitment is required. That something more could amount to provision of quarters, it could amount to better promotion ratios, it could amount to other things not specified. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 361 MR. BERNACCHI: -Are you aware, Sir, that the responsibility of the Hawker Control Force on the ground is very considerable. Could a suggestion be put before the Standing Committee that we should also represent to Government that the promotion rank for Constables on the ground after the recruitment stage is as Corporal? CHAIRMAN: -This suggestion will also be included in the paper for Standing Committee. DR. BELL: Mr. Chairman, could I ask a supplementary? You say in the beginning of your answer to Mr. BERNACCHI that the establishment of the Force is 442, does that mean there is no intention to increase the Force beyond that? CHAIRMAN: ---No, Dr. BELL, there was a gap between strength and establishment until recently of more like 70 or 80 men than the present gap of 49. I am of the opinion that the establishment of the Force will have to be increased considerably, but there is little practical point in my proposing this as long as we are short on existing establishment. It is a question of timing as to when one begins to ask for an increase in establishment. I have no evidence that I should have difficulty in getting a reasonable increase if I ask for it. DR. BELL: -Mr. Chairman, what is the number of hawkers these people are dealing with? CHAIRMAN: -That I do not know, because they are not dealing with all the hawkers in the urban areas, they are limited to the control of 28 Hawker Control Force areas. I do not have figures today of how many hawkers there are in those areas. DR. BELL: -Do you have the figure, Mr. Chairman, of the number of hawkers there are in the Colony, I mean licensed, fixed licences, and where they are likely to be? CHAIRMAN: The Department has those figures; but to answer the question now: there are approximately 60,000 hawkers. We know of the existence of 33,000 licensed hawkers, and there may well be another 27,000 to 29,000 unlicensed hawkers, but that is an estimate. MR. CHEONG-LEEN: --Mr. Chairman, just a quick supplementary. In the first paragraph of your reply you say that the position is not quite as discouraging as it sounds, then you go on in the second paragraph you say these figures are not encouraging. So what is the situation? Is it discouragingly encouraging or encouragingly discouraging? CHAIRMAN: -You have me there, Sir. The remark in the first paragraph means that a discouraging tendency has been slightly arrested. Page 193 of 259

Baseline (Original)

of 259 Page 193 of 259 360 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL CHAIRMAN: ---This is Government practice and it reflects the desire not to limit the freedom of the individual unduly. MR. BERNACCHI:-Without disclosing in any way the contents of the ten-year plan, is it practicable to implement this ten-year plan with- out considerably increasing the size of the Hawker Control Force? plan. CHAIRMAN:-No, Sir, this is a pre-requisite in implementing the MR. BERNACCHI:--The second part of my question dealt with the $100 increase. You, Sir, say that the difference in pay reflects the importance which Government places on the role policemen play in the community. I am right I think in assuming that this difference in pay existed before the $100 increase was given to members of the Police Force? CHAIRMAN: -A difference existed. I am not an expert on this subject, but on recruitment of the constable in either of the Forces the basic pay was the same. After that, in each successive year, I believe that the police constable gained an advantage. MR. BERNACCHI:-Could you, Sir, as Chairman of the Urban Council rather than as Director of the Urban Services Department, put up to Government the suggestion that Hawker Control Force personnel should also receive this $100 increase? CHAIRMAN:-I would like to consider this matter in Standing Committee, and if it is the majority wish I will then do as directed by the Council. MR. BERNACCHI:-Perhaps then, Sir, you would put this particular item for the Standing Committee? CHAIRMAN:-Certainly. MR. BERNACCHI:-We come now to a supplementary. You say, Sir, in answer to my third limb that something more will be required. Is the rest of your answer, that is from "strong representations have been made" to "with particular reference to the promotion ratios" an indication of what you mean by something more will be required? CHAIRMAN:---Yes, the meaning is that to raise the maximum age for recruitment from 25 to 30 years will bring a temporary benefit, a non-repeatable benefit, and something more than merely widening the field of recruitment is required. That something more could amount to provision of quarters, it could amount to better promotion ratios, it could amount to other things not specified. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 361 MR. BERNACCHI:-Are you aware, Sir, that the responsibility of the Hawker Control Force on the ground is very considerable. Could a suggestion be put before the Standing Committee that we should also represent to Government that the promotion rank for Constables on the ground after the recruitment stage is as Corporal? CHAIRMAN :-This suggestion will also be included in the paper for Standing Committee. DR. BELL: Mr. Chairman, could I ask a supplementary? You say in the beginning of your answer to Mr. BERNACCHI that the establish- ment of the Force is 442, does that mean there is no intention to increase the Force beyond that? CHAIRMAN: ---No, Dr. BELL, there was a gap between strength and establishment until recently of more like 70 or 80 men than the present gap of 49. I am of the opinion that the establishment of the Force will have to be increased considerably, but there is little practical point in my proposing this as long as we are short on existing establishment. It is a question of timing as to when one begins to ask for an increase in establishment. I have no evidence that I should have difficulty in getting a reasonable increase if I ask for it. DR. BELL:-Mr. Chairman, what is the number of hawkers these people are dealing with? CHAIRMAN:-That I do not know, because they are not dealing with all the hawkers in the urban areas, they are limited to the control of 28 Hawker Control Force areas. I do not have figures today of how many hawkers there are in those areas. DR. BELL:-Do you have the figure, Mr. Chairman, of the number of hawkers there are in the Colony, I mean licensed, fixed licences, and where they are likely to be? CHAIRMAN: The Department has those figures; but to answer the question now: there are approximately 60,000 hawkers. We know of the existence of 33,000 licensed hawkers, and there may well be an- other 27,000 to 29,000 unlicensed hawkers, but that is an estimate. MR. CHEONG-LEEN:--Mr. Chairman, just a quick supplementary. In the first paragraph of your reply you say that the position is not quite as discouraging as it sounds, then you go on in the second para- graph you say these figures are not encouraging. So what is the situa- tion? Is it discouragingly encouraging or encouragingly discouraging? CHAIRMAN: -You have me there, Sir. The remark in the first paragraph means that a discouraging tendency has been slightly arrested.

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of 259

Page 193 of 259

360

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

CHAIRMAN: ---This is Government practice and it reflects the desire not to limit the freedom of the individual unduly.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Without disclosing in any way the contents of the ten-year plan, is it practicable to implement this ten-year plan with- out considerably increasing the size of the Hawker Control Force?

plan.

CHAIRMAN:-No, Sir, this is a pre-requisite in implementing the

MR. BERNACCHI:--The second part of my question dealt with the $100 increase. You, Sir, say that the difference in pay reflects the importance which Government places on the role policemen play in the community. I am right I think in assuming that this difference in pay existed before the $100 increase was given to members of the Police Force?

MR. BERNACCHI:-Could you, Sir, as Chairman of the Urban Council rather than as Director of the Urban Services Department, put up to Government the suggestion that Hawker Control Force personnel should also receive this $100 increase?

CHAIRMAN:-I would like to consider this matter in Standing Committee, and if it is the majority wish I will then do as directed by the Council.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Perhaps then, Sir, you would put this particular item for the Standing Committee?

CHAIRMAN:-Certainly.

MR. BERNACCHI:-We come now to a supplementary. You say, Sir, in answer to my third limb that something more will be required. Is the rest of your answer, that is from "strong representations have been made" to "with particular reference to the promotion ratios" an indication of what you mean by something more will be required?

CHAIRMAN:---Yes, the meaning is that to raise the maximum age for recruitment from 25 to 30 years will bring a temporary benefit, a non-repeatable benefit, and something more than merely widening the field of recruitment is required. That something more could amount to provision of quarters, it could amount to better promotion ratios, it could amount to other things not specified.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

361

MR. BERNACCHI:-Are you aware, Sir, that the responsibility of the Hawker Control Force on the ground is very considerable. Could a suggestion be put before the Standing Committee that we should also represent to Government that the promotion rank for Constables on the ground after the recruitment stage is as Corporal?

CHAIRMAN :-This suggestion will also be included in the paper for Standing Committee.

DR. BELL: Mr. Chairman, could I ask a supplementary? You say in the beginning of your answer to Mr. BERNACCHI that the establish- ment of the Force is 442, does that mean there is no intention to increase the Force beyond that?

DR. BELL:-Mr. Chairman, what is the number of hawkers these people are dealing with?

CHAIRMAN:-That I do not know, because they are not dealing with all the hawkers in the urban areas, they are limited to the control of 28 Hawker Control Force areas. I do not have figures today of how many hawkers there are in those areas.

DR. BELL:-Do you have the figure, Mr. Chairman, of the number of hawkers there are in the Colony, I mean licensed, fixed licences, and where they are likely to be?

CHAIRMAN: The Department has those figures; but to answer the question now: there are approximately 60,000 hawkers. We know of the existence of 33,000 licensed hawkers, and there may well be an- other 27,000 to 29,000 unlicensed hawkers, but that is an estimate.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:--Mr. Chairman, just a quick supplementary. In the first paragraph of your reply you say that the position is not quite as discouraging as it sounds, then you go on in the second para- graph you say these figures are not encouraging. So what is the situa- tion? Is it discouragingly encouraging or encouragingly discouraging?

CHAIRMAN: -You have me there, Sir. The remark in the first paragraph means that a discouraging tendency has been slightly arrested.

1967 — Page 193

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