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operation between officers of my department and the other law-enforcing agencies concerned, not the least of which, of course, is the Urban Council itself.
CHAIRMAN: ---Ladies and Gentlemen, on a point of clarification, and for the benefit of Mr. Hu, Mr. BARTY was quite right in surmising that the definition of a "public officer" or "public servant" can be found in the Interpretation Ordinance. It says in that Ordinance:
"public officer or public servant means any person holding any appointment or discharging the duties whether permanent or temporary, of any office, the emoluments of which are wholly or in part derived from the revenues of the Crown, and any employee or member of a public body whether temporary or permanent and whether paid or unpaid and any Justice of the Peace."
MR. HU:-Thank you Sir.
CHAIRMAN:-The motion has been proposed and seconded. Does any other member wish to speak?
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I rise to support Dr. BELL's motion. I always support the motions which she puts forward before this Council. It is a far safer course to support them than not to support them. (Laughter). To-day I detect a lack of fire in the speech which she has made. Instead of her usual eloquent advocacy of the cause, she has shown considerable restraint. That, Mr. Chairman, is not Dr. BELL'S fault. I suspect she was reading from the text of a speech prepared by the Resettlement Department. (Laughter). Still, Sir, I am quite sure that I am speaking for all the Appointed Members when we say that this motion has our entire and whole-hearted support, as has the work of the Resettlement Policy Select Committee.
MR. WILFRED WONG:-Mr. Chairman, I would like to support this motion without any strings attached to it.
CHAIRMAN:-May I put the motion to the vote?
DR. BELL: ---Mr. Chairman, may I have my right to reply?
CHAIRMAN:-Certainly, Dr. BELL.
DR. BELL:-Mr. Chairman, perhaps Mr. SALES is very discerning in detecting that I wasn't over-enthusiastic about this motion. Mr. BERNACCHI in his seconding speech has pointed out that when this motion was first suggested, the wording frightened me. I was very loth ---in fact I refused to move a motion which gave anybody the power of arrest without warrant, and I refused to move it, and it went back for further discussion to the Select Committees involved. But in the
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
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end I agreed to move this motion for the reasons put forward, that are I think in the balance those that one considers to be primarily important, the health and safety of the other residents, the convenience of the other residents who, after all, are proportionately far greater than the number of hawkers who are there. At the same time, on the other side of the scales, you have the hawkers who are desperately trying to eke out a very meagre livelihood for themselves and their families, but I have confidence in the department's officers for the very reason perhaps that they are not trained in hawker control, but are trained to deal sympathetically with regard to the housing of these people in the estates, and because they will, I think, weigh the two sides of the question before they use these powers. Therefore my speech was deliberately lacking in fire, and it was not prepared by the Resettlement Department. (Laughter). It was in fact prepared in con-sultation with myself and had a great many amendments inserted by myself. I do feel that the important point which Mr. BERNACCHI has made about power of arrest, but at the same time using every other means available to persuade these hawkers to maintain the standards of cleanliness and order in the estates without recourse to arrest, is very vital.
CHAIRMAN: -Ladies and Gentlemen, we will now put the motion to vote.
The motion was carried, with 21 votes for. The Deputy Director of Medical and Health Services abstained.
(2) MR. B. A. BERNACCHI moved the following motion:-
That this Council has no confidence in the Chairman's interpretation of the Standing Orders.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, it is with no pleasure that I move to propose the Motion that stands in my name.
"That this Council has no confidence in the Chairman's interpretation of the Standing Orders".
Mr. Chairman, you are a very good administrator and I hope your name will go down in history as the author of a plan which is the first real plan as to how to deal with the hawking problem in Hong Kong generally over the next 10 years. In fact I suggest that it be called the "Tingle Ten Year Plan". The Plan is sympathetic to the hawkers, yet provides a hope for solution to the almost insoluble problem of hawking. Having said these words I do not think, Mr. Chairman, that you are a good Chairman of the Urban Council. You might have been over
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operation between officers of my department and the other law-enforcing agencies concerned, not the least of which, of course, is the Urban Council itself.
CHAIRMAN: ---Ladies and Gentlemen, on a point of clarification, and for the benefit of Mr. Hu, Mr. BARTY was quite right in surmising that the definition of a "public officer" or "public servant" can be found in the Interpretation Ordinance. It says in that Ordinance:
"public officer or public servant means any person holding any appointment or discharging the duties whether permanent or temporary, of any office, the emoluments of which are wholly or in part derived from the revenues of the Crown, and any employee or member of a public body whether temporary or permanent and whether paid or unpaid and any Justice of the Peace."
MR. HU:-Thank you Sir.
CHAIRMAN:-The motion has been proposed and seconded. Does any other member wish to speak?
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I rise to support Dr. BELL's motion. I always support the motions which she puts forward before this Council. It is a far safer course to support them than not to support them. (Laughter). To-day I detect a lack of fire in the speech which she has made. Instead of her usual eloquent advocacy of the cause, she has shown considerable restraint. That, Mr. Chairman, is not Dr. BELL'S fault. I suspect she was reading from the text of a speech prepared by the Resettlement Department. (Laughter). Still, Sir, I am quite sure that I am speaking for all the Appointed Members when we say that this motion has our entire and whole-hearted support, as has the work of the Resettlement Policy Select Committee.
MR. WILFRED WONG:-Mr. Chairman, I would like to support this motion without any strings attached to it.
CHAIRMAN:-May I put the motion to the vote?
DR. BELL: ---Mr. Chairman, may I have my right to reply?
CHAIRMAN:-Certainly, Dr. BELL.
DR. BELL:-Mr. Chairman, perhaps Mr. SALES is very discerning in detecting that I wasn't over-enthusiastic about this motion. Mr. BERNACCHI in his seconding speech has pointed out that when this motion was first suggested, the wording frightened me. I was very loth ---in fact I refused to move a motion which gave anybody the power of arrest without warrant, and I refused to move it, and it went back for further discussion to the Select Committees involved. But in the
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
147
end I agreed to move this motion for the reasons put forward, that are I think in the balance those that one considers to be primarily important, the health and safety of the other residents, the convenience of the other residents who, after all, are proportionately far greater than the number of hawkers who are there. At the same time, on the other side of the scales, you have the hawkers who are desperately trying to eke out a very meagre livelihood for themselves and their families, but I have confidence in the department's officers for the very reason perhaps that they are not trained in hawker control, but are trained to deal sympathetically with regard to the housing of these people in the estates, and because they will, I think, weigh the two sides of the question before they use these powers. Therefore my speech was deliberately lacking in fire, and it was not prepared by the Resettlement Department. (Laughter). It was in fact prepared in con- sultation with myself and had a great many amendments inserted by myself. I do feel that the important point which Mr. BERNACCHI has made about power of arrest, but at the same time using every other means available to persuade these hawkers to maintain the standards of cleanliness and order in the estates without recourse to arrest, is very vital.
CHAIRMAN: -Ladies and Gentlemen, we will now put the motion
to vote.
The motion was carried, with 21 votes for. The Deputy Director of Medical and Health Services abstained.
(2) MR. B. A. BERNACCHI moved the following motion:-
That this Council has no confidence in the Chairman's inter-
pretation of the Standing Orders.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, it is with no pleasure that I move to propose the Motion that stands in my name.
"That this Council has no confidence in the Chairman's inter- pretation of the Standing Orders".
Mr. Chairman, you are a very good administrator and I hope your name will go down in history as the author of a plan which is the first real plan as to how to deal with the hawking problem in Hong Kong generally over the next 10 years. In fact I suggest that it be called the "Tingle Ten Year Plan". The Plan is sympathetic to the hawkers, yet provides a hope for solution to the almost insoluble problem of hawk- ing. Having said these words I do not think, Mr. Chairman, that you are a good Chairman of the Urban Council. You might have been over
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