HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
CHAIRMAN: ---I am in some difficulty here, Mr. Hu. I am answering this question because the matter arose under the chairmanship of Mr. BERNACCHI (one and a half years ago), and it did not seem fair to ask Mr. SALES, the present Chairman, to answer it. (Mr. SALES raised his hand). But he seems to be willing to volunteer to answer your supplementary, so if he wishes to he may go ahead.
MR. SALES-Sir, if I recall the matter, the charges were not raised. The basis of charging was adjusted. We had commercial and non-commercial-two charges, instead of three-charity, non-profit and commercial rates, so this is the position. As a matter of fact, I am inclined to believe that the non-profit making organizations benefit from the new scheme.
MR. HU:-What about the commercial ones?
MR. SALES: -Presumably those who benefit from the use of the City Hall for personal profit should be expected to help defray the expenses of the City Hall. Sir, may I add with your permission, that the Select Committee at that time considered very carefully the whole structure of the rates, the costings submitted to the Select Committee on the basis of which there was a heavy deficit each month, and in an effort to make it less so that a greater service might be given to the public in the library and the museums and the art gallery sections, the commercial hirers of the City Hall were asked to pay what I consider a very reasonable increase in rates.
MR. HU:-Mr. Chairman, through you, may I ask Mr. Sales if statistics show that most of the hirings of the concert hall and theatre, are by private schools, and do they pay the commercial rate?
MR. SALES: --No, Sir. Private schools pay the non-profit-making organizations' rate, so that private schools are not prejudiced in any way. The report which was tabled to-day shows very clearly the use to which the various facilities of the City Hall are put, and also Sir, I suggest that the last statement showing how each section of the City Hall stands in relation to income and expenditure should be sent to Mr. Hu as that will clarify the position in his mind.
MR. HU-Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Can I have the assurance of Mr. SALES, through you, that the private schools can enjoy the non-commercial rate of the hiring of the concert hall and theatre?
MR. SALES-Sir, that is definitely so, unless of course the private school uses the City Hall for a commercial purpose.
MR. BERNACCHI :- Mr. Chairman, before asking two supplementaries, may I be permitted to supplement the answer myself by saying that I have the impression, and I couldn't say for sure, but I have the impression that commercial interests were generally consulted in 1964 before the paper was originally laid before the City Hall Select Committee.
MR. SALES: Sir, that is so.
MR. BERNACCHI-I would now like to ask two supplementaries. Number one. You say that the paper on revised charges was issued to the Standing Committee on the 21st December, 1964 and approved by the Committee on the 28th December, 1964. Was it approved in a meeting of the Committee or was it a presumption paper?
CHAIRMAN:-Presumption paper.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Then the second matter, and in asking this I don't wish to be taken in any way as criticising the increases, because I was indeed a member and Chairman of the City Hall Select Committee that agreed the increases, but as it was a matter of much importance to the public, why was it not placed on the agenda for the Committee of the Whole Council the Standing Committee of the Whole Council- and why was it later not placed before a public meeting of the Council as a proposal in open Council to be adopted as a motion?
CHAIRMAN: Sir, at the material time I was in Europe and am somewhat at a disadvantage. I must ask indulgence to look up the papers and let you have an answer in writing or in Standing Committee, whichever you prefer.
MR. HU:-Mr. Chairman, through you, just a last clarification I want to get from Mr. SALES. For example, private schools want to have their closing ceremony of the year. They want to have the concert hall for four hours; should they pay commercial rate or non-commercial?
MR. SALES: Non-profit-making rate, that is very clear. Of that Mr. Hu can rest assured.
MR. HU:-Thank you.
(20) MR. HENRY H. L. Hu asked the following question:
Could the Chairman kindly inform this Council what measure or measures should or could be taken with regard to the unreasonable delay by this Council in carrying out its own motion? e.g. the system of dual languages for the meetings of the Council.
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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
CHAIRMAN: ---I am in some difficulty here, Mr. Hu. I am answer- ing this question because the matter arose under the chairmanship of Mr. BERNACCHI (one and a half years ago), and it did not seem fair to ask Mr. SALES, the present Chairman, to answer it. (Mr. SALES raised his hand). But he seems to be willing to volunteer to answer your supplementary, so if he wishes to he may go ahead.
MR. SALES-Sir, if I recall the matter, the charges were not raised. The basis of charging was adjusted. We had commercial and non-commercial-two charges, instead of three-charity, non-profit and commercial rates, so this is the position. As a matter of fact, I am inclined to believe that the non-profit making organizations benefit from the new scheme.
MR. HU:-What about the commercial ones?
MR. SALES: -Presumably those who benefit from the use of the City Hall for personal profit should be expected to help defray the expenses of the City Hall. Sir, may I add with your permission, that the Select Committee at that time considered very carefully the whole structure of the rates, the costings submitted to the Select Committee on the basis of which there was a heavy deficit each month, and in an effort to make it less so that a greater service might be given to the public in the library and the museums and the art gallery sections, the commercial hirers of the City Hall were asked to pay what I consider a very reasonable increase in rates.
MR. HU:-Mr. Chairman, through you, may I ask Mr. Sales if statistics show that most of the hirings of the concert hall and theatre, are by private schools, and do they pay the commercial rate?
MR. SALES: --No, Sir. Private schools pay the non-profit-making organizations' rate, so that private schools are not prejudiced in any way. The report which was tabled to-day shows very clearly the use to which the various facilities of the City Hall are put, and also Sir, I suggest that the last statement showing how each section of the City Hall stands in relation to income and expenditure should be sent to Mr. Hu as that will clarify the position in his mind.
MR. HU-Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Can I have the assurance of Mr. SALES, through you, that the private schools can enjoy the non-commercial rate of the hiring of the concert hall and theatre?
MR. SALES-Sir, that is definitely so, unless of course the private school uses the City Hall for a commercial purpose.
MR. BERNACCHI :- Mr. Chairman, before asking two supple- mentaries, may I be permitted to supplement the answer myself by
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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
39
saying that I have the impression, and I couldn't say for sure, but I have the impression that commercial interests were generally consulted in 1964 before the paper was originally laid before the City Hall Select Committee.
MR. SALES: Sir, that is so.
MR. BERNACCHI-I would now like to ask two supplementaries. Number one. You say that the paper on revised charges was issued to the Standing Committee on the 21st December, 1964 and approved by the Committee on the 28th December, 1964. Was it approved in a meeting of the Committee or was it a presumption paper?
CHAIRMAN:-Presumption paper.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Then the second matter, and in asking this I don't wish to be taken in any way as criticising the increases, because I was indeed a member and Chairman of the City Hall Select Committee that agreed the increases, but as it was a matter of much importance to the public, why was it not placed on the agenda for the Committee of the Whole Council the Standing Committee of the Whole Council- and why was it later not placed before a public meeting of the Council as a proposal in open Council to be adopted as a motion?
CHAIRMAN: Sir, at the material time I was in Europe and am somewhat at a disadvantage. I must ask indulgence to look up the papers and let you have an answer in writing or in Standing Committee, whichever you prefer.
MR. HU:-Mr. Chairman, through you, just a last clarification I want to get from Mr. SALES. For example, private schools want to have their closing ceremony of the year. They want to have the concert hall for four hours; should they pay commercial rate or non-commercial?
MR. SALES: Non-profit-making rate, that is very clear. Of that Mr. Hu can rest assured.
MR. HU:-Thank you.
(20) MR. HENRY H. L. Hu asked the following question:
Could the Chairman kindly inform this Council what measure or measures should or could be taken with regard to the unreasonable delay by this Council in carrying out its own motion? e.g. the system of dual languages for the meetings of the Council.
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