1965 — Page 374

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

#382

Page 374 of 382

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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

agreement with the text of the motion, where it is advocated that we must recover at all times the cost of cleansing from occupiers. I have spoken in the past about my reservations on going into private property, because I feel that it is most difficult to draw a line; why should certain private property be maintained in a hygienic condition at public expense and not other private property? If it is to be made law in Hong Kong, I am sure that the members of the press and I would like to see our domestic premises cleaned by your people without our incurring any expense, so that point must be explicit at all times. But the key sentence—the key clause—in this particular motion is that to go into and clean the communal parts of multi-storeyed buildings. That is something which we must examine as to principle and practice, and for that reason just before we resumed I spoke briefly to my colleague, the proposer of this motion, and suggested to him that he might wish to consider the possibility of this motion being referred to the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee so that the proposal from that Select Committee may be made to us. I would still like to make that suggestion to Mr. BERNACCHI, because at this stage we should not be called upon to approve the motion without these points having been fully clarified. If Mr. BERNACCHI does not himself wish to move the subsidiary motion, the procedural motion, which I hope he will do, because I would then second it...

MR. BERNACCHI: - Perhaps I would give my attitude on this proposal of Mr. SALES, and I am not exercising my right yet to reply. I have given the matter some consideration since he mentioned it to me in the adjournment, but I do think that the Select Committee should have guidance from this Council first, rather than that this motion be merely referred to the Select Committee. If, for instance, the words “in principle” would meet Mr. SALES', and perhaps other members on the Appointed side's doubts on the matter—that “in principle legislation be enacted” so that when it goes back to the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee they have had some assistance and guidance from this Council. I think myself that that would be better than simply referring it blindly to the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee without comment.

MR. SALES: - Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to meet with Mr. BERNACCHI. I would like to see the text of the motion as it stands referred to that Select Committee with the rider, that in considering the draft legislation of the proposed Bill by Government, if the Select Committee deems fit and practicable to include any recommendation as to legislation to enable your Department to go into private buildings for the purpose stated in the motion, then let that Select Committee make that recommendation. I think that should meet Mr. BERNACCHI'S point. The rider should meet his point, rather than amending the text at this stage, because that amendment might be subject to further discussion, whereas the rider does not need to be discussed.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

727

text at this stage, because that amendment might be subject to further discussion, whereas the rider does not need to be discussed.

MR. BERNACCHI: - With your permission, Mr. Chairman because, of course, I am breaking Standing Orders right, left and centre—my point is that of course I have studied the papers that are before the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee, and they appear to me merely to provide legislative authority for voluntary management schemes, and do not contain the text of my motion in any way; and my motion is completely apart from the text of any voluntary management scheme, and although in my motion I specifically except effective voluntary management schemes, I have very grave doubts that by legislation an ineffective voluntary management scheme can be turned into an effective voluntary management scheme.

MR. WILFRED WONG: - Mr. Chairman, if Dr. Alison BELL received notice for the support of Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion at half past six yesterday, I received notice of the support of Mr. SALES' suggestion at half past six this evening. (Laughter).

What Mr. BERNACCHI has proposed, I am all in favour in principle. I have for three years expounded on the unhygienic state of the multi-storey buildings that are owned by co-operatives. I have stressed that legislation should be made in that direction. On the other hand, I believe that the Working Party Report on the multi-storeyed buildings has been produced, and I believe, if I remember correctly, that it proposes to have compulsory legislation for the forming of societies for the managing of multi-storeyed estates. I think the problem is with the co-operative, because if a building owner clogs up his communal places with refuse a summons could be made to the owner. It is really those multi-storeyed co-operative flats that are abusing their privileges, and causing this unhygienic state. I think the Working Party Report was aimed in that direction, and I think we should give that Working Party Report time to have its policies and recommendations implemented. Now there are a lot of legal luminaries on the other side. On this side we have our own registrable lawyer (Laughter) and I think I must refer to our senior member's legal training to govern my views at the present stage. I haven't gone into the legal aspects of it, and in consideration of the fact that there are certain technicalities involved in carrying out the policies we passed in this motion, I am also in favour, being a member of the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee, that this matter should go back to that committee, perhaps with some change in wording, so that we can make this proposal more acceptable. So, Mr. Chairman, I have much pleasure in supporting Mr. SALES' suggestion in this respect.

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#382 Page 374 of 382 | | ין 726 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL agreement with the text of the motion, where it is advocated that we must recover at all times the cost of cleansing from occupiers. I have spoken in the past about my reservations on going into private property, because I feel that it is most difficult to draw a line; why should certain private property be maintained in a hygienic condition at public expense and not other private property? If it is to be made law in Hong Kong, I am sure that the members of the press and I would like to see our domestic premises cleaned by your people without our incurring any expense, so that point must be explicit at all times. But the key sentence—the key clause—in this particular motion is that to go into and clean the communal parts of multi-storeyed buildings. That is something which we must examine as to principle and practice, and for that reason just before we resumed I spoke briefly to my colleague, the proposer of this motion, and suggested to him that he might wish to consider the possibility of this motion being referred to the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee so that the proposal from that Select Committee may be made to us. I would still like to make that suggestion to Mr. BERNACCHI, because at this stage we should not be called upon to approve the motion without these points having been fully clarified. If Mr. BERNACCHI does not himself wish to move the subsidiary motion, the procedural motion, which I hope he will do, because I would then second it... MR. BERNACCHI: - Perhaps I would give my attitude on this proposal of Mr. SALES, and I am not exercising my right yet to reply. I have given the matter some consideration since he mentioned it to me in the adjournment, but I do think that the Select Committee should have guidance from this Council first, rather than that this motion be merely referred to the Select Committee. If, for instance, the words “in principle” would meet Mr. SALES', and perhaps other members on the Appointed side's doubts on the matter—that “in principle legislation be enacted” so that when it goes back to the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee they have had some assistance and guidance from this Council. I think myself that that would be better than simply referring it blindly to the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee without comment. MR. SALES: - Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to meet with Mr. BERNACCHI. I would like to see the text of the motion as it stands referred to that Select Committee with the rider, that in considering the draft legislation of the proposed Bill by Government, if the Select Committee deems fit and practicable to include any recommendation as to legislation to enable your Department to go into private buildings for the purpose stated in the motion, then let that Select Committee make that recommendation. I think that should meet Mr. BERNACCHI'S point. The rider should meet his point, rather than amending the text at this stage, because that amendment might be subject to further discussion, whereas the rider does not need to be discussed. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 727 text at this stage, because that amendment might be subject to further discussion, whereas the rider does not need to be discussed. MR. BERNACCHI: - With your permission, Mr. Chairman because, of course, I am breaking Standing Orders right, left and centre—my point is that of course I have studied the papers that are before the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee, and they appear to me merely to provide legislative authority for voluntary management schemes, and do not contain the text of my motion in any way; and my motion is completely apart from the text of any voluntary management scheme, and although in my motion I specifically except effective voluntary management schemes, I have very grave doubts that by legislation an ineffective voluntary management scheme can be turned into an effective voluntary management scheme. MR. WILFRED WONG: - Mr. Chairman, if Dr. Alison BELL received notice for the support of Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion at half past six yesterday, I received notice of the support of Mr. SALES' suggestion at half past six this evening. (Laughter). What Mr. BERNACCHI has proposed, I am all in favour in principle. I have for three years expounded on the unhygienic state of the multi-storey buildings that are owned by co-operatives. I have stressed that legislation should be made in that direction. On the other hand, I believe that the Working Party Report on the multi-storeyed buildings has been produced, and I believe, if I remember correctly, that it proposes to have compulsory legislation for the forming of societies for the managing of multi-storeyed estates. I think the problem is with the co-operative, because if a building owner clogs up his communal places with refuse a summons could be made to the owner. It is really those multi-storeyed co-operative flats that are abusing their privileges, and causing this unhygienic state. I think the Working Party Report was aimed in that direction, and I think we should give that Working Party Report time to have its policies and recommendations implemented. Now there are a lot of legal luminaries on the other side. On this side we have our own registrable lawyer (Laughter) and I think I must refer to our senior member's legal training to govern my views at the present stage. I haven't gone into the legal aspects of it, and in consideration of the fact that there are certain technicalities involved in carrying out the policies we passed in this motion, I am also in favour, being a member of the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee, that this matter should go back to that committee, perhaps with some change in wording, so that we can make this proposal more acceptable. So, Mr. Chairman, I have much pleasure in supporting Mr. SALES' suggestion in this respect. Page 374 of 382

Baseline (Original)

#382 Page 374 of 382 | | ין 726 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL agreement with the text of the motion, where it is advocated that we must recover at all times the cost of cleansing from occupiers. I have spoken in the past about my reservations on going into private prop- erty, because I feel that it is most difficult to draw a line; why should certain private property be maintained in a hygienic condition at public expense and not other private property? If it is to be made law in Hong Kong, I am sure that the members of the press and I would like to see our domestic premises cleaned by your people without our incurring any expense, so that point must be explicit at all times. But the key sentence--the key clause-in this particular motion is that to go into and clean the communal parts of multi-storeyed buildings. That is something which we must examine as to principle and practice, and for that reason just before we resumed I spoke briefly to my colleague, the proposer of this motion, and suggested to him that he might wish to consider the possibility of this motion being referred to the Environ- mental Hygiene Select Committee so that the proposal from that Select Committee may be made to us. I would still like to make that sugges- tion to Mr. BERNACCHI, because at this stage we should not be called upon to approve the motion without these points having been fully clarified. If Mr. BERNACCHI does not himself wish to move the sub- sidiary motion, the procedural motion, which I hope he will do, because I would then second it . . . MR. BERNACCHI:-Perhaps I would give my attitude on this pro- posal of Mr. SALES, and I am not exercising my right yet to reply. I have given the matter some consideration since he mentioned it to me in the adjournment, but I do think that the Select Committee should have guidance from this Council first, rather than that this motion be merely referred to the Select Committee. If, for instance, the words in principle would meet Mr. SALES', and perhaps other members on the Appointed side's doubts on the matter--that “in principle legislation be enacted" so that when it goes back to the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee they have had some assistance and guidance from this Council. I think myself that that would be better than simply referring it blindly to the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee without comment. MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to meet with Mr. BERNACCHI. I would like to see the text of the motion as it stands referred to that Select Committee with the rider, that in considering the draft legislation of the proposed Bill by Government, if the Select Committee deems fit and practicable to include any recommendation as to legislation to enable your Department to go into private buildings for the purpose stated in the motion, then let that Select Committee make that recommendation. I think that should meet Mr. BERNACCHI'S point. The rider should meet his point, rather than amending the HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 727 text at this stage, because that amendment might be subject to further discussion, whereas the rider does not need to be discussed. MR. BERNACCHI:-With your permission, Mr. Chairman because, of course, I am breaking Standing Orders right, left and centre-my point is that of course I have studied the papers that are before the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee, and they appear to me merely to provide legislative authority for voluntary management schemes, and do not contain the text of my motion in any way; and my motion is completely apart from the text of any voluntary manage- ment scheme, and although in my motion I specifically except effective voluntary management schemes, I have very grave doubts that by legislation an ineffective voluntary management scheme can be turned into an effective voluntary management scheme. MR. WILFRED WONG:-Mr. Chairman, if Dr. Alison BELL received notice for the support of Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion at half past six yesterday, I received notice of the support of Mr. SALES' suggestion at half past six this evening. (Laughter). What Mr. BERNACCHI has proposed, I am all in favour in principle. I have for three years expounded on the unhygienic state of the multi- storey buildings that are owned by co-operatives. I have stressed that legislation should be made in that direction. On the other hand, I believe that the Working Party Report on the multi-storeyed buildings has been produced, and I believe, if I remember correctly, that it proposes to have compulsory legislation for the forming of societies for the managing of multi-storeyed estates. I think the problem is with the co-operative, because if a building owner clogs up his communal It is really places with refuse a summons could be made to the owner. those multi-storeyed co-operative flats that are abusing their privileges, I think the Working Party Report and causing this unhygienic state. was aimed in that direction, and I think we should give that Working Party Report time to have its policies and recommendations imple- mented. Now there are a lot of legal luminaries on the other side. On this side we have our own registrable lawyer (Laughter) and I think I must refer to our senior member's legal training to govern my views at the present stage. I haven't gone into the legal aspects of it, and in consideration of the fact that there are certain technicalities involved in carrying out the policies we passed in this motion, I am also in favour, being a member of the Environmental Hygiene Select Com- mittee, that this matter should go back to that committee, perhaps with some change in wording, so that we can make this proposal more acceptable. So, Mr. Chairman, I have much pleasure in supporting Mr. SALES' suggestion in this respect.

2026-05-13 22:33:42 · Baseline

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#382

Page 374 of 382

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726

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

agreement with the text of the motion, where it is advocated that we must recover at all times the cost of cleansing from occupiers. I have spoken in the past about my reservations on going into private prop- erty, because I feel that it is most difficult to draw a line; why should certain private property be maintained in a hygienic condition at public expense and not other private property? If it is to be made law in Hong Kong, I am sure that the members of the press and I would like to see our domestic premises cleaned by your people without our incurring any expense, so that point must be explicit at all times. But the key sentence--the key clause-in this particular motion is that to go into and clean the communal parts of multi-storeyed buildings. That is something which we must examine as to principle and practice, and for that reason just before we resumed I spoke briefly to my colleague, the proposer of this motion, and suggested to him that he might wish to consider the possibility of this motion being referred to the Environ- mental Hygiene Select Committee so that the proposal from that Select Committee may be made to us. I would still like to make that sugges- tion to Mr. BERNACCHI, because at this stage we should not be called upon to approve the motion without these points having been fully clarified. If Mr. BERNACCHI does not himself wish to move the sub- sidiary motion, the procedural motion, which I hope he will do, because I would then second it . . .

MR. BERNACCHI:-Perhaps I would give my attitude on this pro- posal of Mr. SALES, and I am not exercising my right yet to reply. I have given the matter some consideration since he mentioned it to me in the adjournment, but I do think that the Select Committee should have guidance from this Council first, rather than that this motion be merely referred to the Select Committee. If, for instance, the words in principle would meet Mr. SALES', and perhaps other members on the Appointed side's doubts on the matter--that “in principle legislation be enacted" so that when it goes back to the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee they have had some assistance and guidance from this Council. I think myself that that would be better than simply referring it blindly to the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee without comment.

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to meet with Mr. BERNACCHI. I would like to see the text of the motion as it stands referred to that Select Committee with the rider, that in considering the draft legislation of the proposed Bill by Government, if the Select Committee deems fit and practicable to include any recommendation as to legislation to enable your Department to go into private buildings for the purpose stated in the motion, then let that Select Committee make that recommendation. I think that should meet Mr. BERNACCHI'S point. The rider should meet his point, rather than amending the

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

727

text at this stage, because that amendment might be subject to further discussion, whereas the rider does not need to be discussed.

MR. BERNACCHI:-With your permission, Mr. Chairman because, of course, I am breaking Standing Orders right, left and centre-my point is that of course I have studied the papers that are before the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee, and they appear to me merely to provide legislative authority for voluntary management schemes, and do not contain the text of my motion in any way; and my motion is completely apart from the text of any voluntary manage- ment scheme, and although in my motion I specifically except effective voluntary management schemes, I have very grave doubts that by legislation an ineffective voluntary management scheme can be turned into an effective voluntary management scheme.

MR. WILFRED WONG:-Mr. Chairman, if Dr. Alison BELL received notice for the support of Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion at half past six yesterday, I received notice of the support of Mr. SALES' suggestion at half past six this evening. (Laughter).

What Mr. BERNACCHI has proposed, I am all in favour in principle. I have for three years expounded on the unhygienic state of the multi- storey buildings that are owned by co-operatives. I have stressed that legislation should be made in that direction. On the other hand, I believe that the Working Party Report on the multi-storeyed buildings has been produced, and I believe, if I remember correctly, that it proposes to have compulsory legislation for the forming of societies for the managing of multi-storeyed estates. I think the problem is with the co-operative, because if a building owner clogs up his communal It is really places with refuse a summons could be made to the owner. those multi-storeyed co-operative flats that are abusing their privileges, I think the Working Party Report and causing this unhygienic state. was aimed in that direction, and I think we should give that Working Party Report time to have its policies and recommendations imple- mented. Now there are a lot of legal luminaries on the other side. On this side we have our own registrable lawyer (Laughter) and I think I must refer to our senior member's legal training to govern my views at the present stage. I haven't gone into the legal aspects of it, and in consideration of the fact that there are certain technicalities involved in carrying out the policies we passed in this motion, I am also in favour, being a member of the Environmental Hygiene Select Com- mittee, that this matter should go back to that committee, perhaps with some change in wording, so that we can make this proposal more acceptable. So, Mr. Chairman, I have much pleasure in supporting Mr. SALES' suggestion in this respect.

1965 — Page 374

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