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I am not aware of the proportion of these children that are in fact school children though a fair proportion of such school children, more than likely go to night schools. As regards (b) I certainly agree with you that to charge constantly anyone whether a child or an adult with illegal hawking gives the person not only the impression that he is doing nothing disgraceful, but in many cases gives the illegal hawkers the false impression that the fines are a substitute for a licence fee (such as fixed pitch or even cooked food stall) which he is not qualified to obtain from this Council. Although a different type of person is affected than with minor traffic offenders, the problem is similar and was mentioned by the Chief Justice from the Bench at the opening of Sessions in 1965. I can only say that this is very much to the front of the minds of both lawyers and lay magistrates, particularly where the offender is a child, but a satisfactory alternative has yet to be found.
Your paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) particularly (c) assume that the child illegal hawker is holding the pitch for his absent legal hawker parents. There has been, unfortunately, a marked increase in the number of child hawkers who, in fact, have not this excuse at all. Their parents being at work in a factory, or themselves illegal hawkers, or if legal, hawking from a pitch quite well away from where the child is arrested. As an unofficial member of this Council myself I give it as my own opinion that this sort of thing will not be remedied until the Government introduce a system of compulsory free education.
Finally your paragraph (d) I think should first be referred to the Hawkers Select Committee of which you yourself are a member and I give an undertaking to so refer it. There are of course obvious difficulties in the way of this Council recognizing children to be authorized assistants generally where they are not in the company of or under the supervision of an adult person.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, may I put this supplementary question to Mr. BERNACCHI, through you? Since quite obviously it will take some time before there will be compulsory free education in Hong Kong, would it be possible to find some solution to this situation which has been taxing the minds of lay magistrates, some of whom are also members of this Council? A solution which would be much more acceptable on moral grounds, and for the well-being of the children, rather than to see them coming before the courts once or twice a week
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
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and being fined one or two dollars. Some of these children are as young as nine or ten,-eleven or twelve years. Many of them do not just go to night schools, they go to day schools as well, and their parents might be fixed pitch hawkers or pedlar hawkers, but yet because these children must help their mother or their father. If they have a large family, the mother quite often has to go back home to cook for the children, and so the child, for a few hours during the day, must look after the hawker's stall, and then once or twice a week that child must be hauled into the court. Is that social justice? And will Mr. BERNACCHI agree, that since it is going to take some time for compulsory free education to be enforced, whether or not some solution must be found at an early date?
MR. BERNACCHI:---I thank Mr. CHEONG-LEEN for making a speech under the guise of a supplementary question. (Laughter).
I would say that the Chief Justice has appointed a committee to go into the court procedure as regards hawkers, and this subject would clearly come within the terms of reference of that committee, and if you so wish I will arrange for this matter to be also referred to that committee.
MR. HU: Mr. Chairman, under Standing Orders, is Mr. BERNACCHI entitled to express his opinion in answering? (Laughter).
MR. BERNACCHI :---Standing Orders refer to the "questioner”, not to the "answerer"! (Laughter).
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, regarding the existence of this committee mentioned by Mr. BERNACCHI in his reply to Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, the committee set up by the Chief Justice. Has the Urban Council been consulted about that committee at any time? Is the Hawkers Select Committee aware-or is it represented on that committee at all?
CHAIRMAN: ---We were indeed, Sir, informed at the very beginning of the setting up of the committee at a fairly early stage in the proceedings. We informed the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee about it. I do not think we are represented on the committee.
MR. BERNACCHI : —' -We are not represented on the committee, Sir, and if you will remember, I asked several questions at an earlier Council meeting. The offer was to appoint a representative from your Department, Sir, not from the Hawkers Select Committee, and you-I might say quite rightly-turned that suggestion down, and indicated or the correspondence indicated-quite clearly that you thought that this Council should appoint a representative, but the Chief Justice did not take you up on that suggestion.
MR. SALES: ---Sir, I am much obliged to Mr. BERNACCHI for clarifying that position in public. I was aware of it. I am jealous in fact
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Page 363 of 382
704
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
I am not aware of the proportion of these children that are in fact school children though a fair proportion of such school children, more than likely go to night schools. As regards (b) I certainly agree with you that to charge constantly anyone whether a child or an adult with illegal hawking gives the person not only the impression that he is doing nothing disgraceful, but in many cases gives the illegal hawkers the false impression that the fines are a substitute for a licence fee (such as fixed pitch or even cooked food stall) which he is not qualified to obtain from this Council. Although a different type of person is affected than with minor traffic offenders, the problem is similar and was mentioned by the Chief Justice from the Bench at the opening of Sessions in 1965. I can only say that this is very much to the front of the minds of both lawyers and lay magistrates, particularly where the offender is a child, but a satisfactory alternative has yet to be found.
Your paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) particularly (c) assume that the child illegal hawker is holding the pitch for his absent legal hawker parents. There has been, unfortunately, a marked increase in the number of child hawkers who, in fact, have not this excuse at all. Their parents being at work in a factory, or themselves illegal hawkers, or if legal, hawking from a pitch quite well away from where the child is arrested. As an unofficial member of this Council myself I give it as my own opinion that this sort of thing will not be remedied until the Government introduce a system of compulsory free education.
Finally your paragraph (d) I think should first be referred to the Hawkers Select Committee of which you yourself are a member and I give an undertaking to so refer it. There are of course obvious difficulties in the way of this Council recognizing children to be authorized assistants generally where they are not in the company of or under the super- vision of an adult person.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, may I put this supplementary question to Mr. BERNACCHI, through you? Since quite obviously it will take some time before there will be compulsory free education in Hong Kong, would it be possible to find some solution to this situation which has been taxing the minds of lay magistrates, some of whom are also members of this Council? A solution which would be much more acceptable on moral grounds, and for the well-being of the children, rather than to see them coming before the courts once or twice a week
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
705
and being fined one or two dollars. Some of these children are as young as nine or ten,-eleven or twelve years. Many of them do not just go to night schools, they go to day schools as well, and their parents might be fixed pitch hawkers or pedlar hawkers, but yet because these children must help their mother or their father. If they have a large family, the mother quite often has to go back home to cook for the children, and so the child, for a few hours during the day, must look after the hawker's stall, and then once or twice a week that child must be hauled into the court. Is that social justice? And will Mr. BERNACCHI agree, that since it is going to take some time for compulsory free education to be enforced, whether or not some solution must be found at an early date?
MR. BERNACCHI:---I thank Mr. CHEONG-LEEN for making a speech under the guise of a supplementary question. (Laughter).
I would say that the Chief Justice has appointed a committee to go into the court procedure as regards hawkers, and this subject would clearly come within the terms of reference of that committee, and if you so wish I will arrange for this matter to be also referred to that committee.
MR. HU: Mr. Chairman, under Standing Orders, is Mr. BERNACCHI entitled to express his opinion in answering? (Laughter).
MR. BERNACCHI :---Standing Orders refer to the "questioner”, not to the "answerer"! (Laughter).
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, regarding the existence of this com- mittee mentioned by Mr. BERNACCHI in his reply to Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, the committee set up by the Chief Justice. Has the Urban Council been consulted about that committee at any time? Is the Hawkers Select Committee aware-or is it represented on that committee at all?
CHAIRMAN: ---We were indeed, Sir, informed at the very beginning of the setting up of the committee at a fairly early stage in the proceed- ings. We informed the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee about it. I do not think we are represented on the committee.
MR. BERNACCHI : —' -We are not represented on the committee, Sir, and if you will remember, I asked several questions at an earlier Council meeting. The offer was to appoint a representative from your Depart- ment, Sir, not from the Hawkers Select Committee, and you-I might say quite rightly-turned that suggestion down, and indicated or the correspondence indicated-quite clearly that you thought that this Council should appoint a representative, but the Chief Justice did not take you up on that suggestion.
MR. SALES: ---Sir, I am much obliged to Mr. BERNACCHI for clarify- ing that position in public. I was aware of it. I am jealous in fact
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