Page 348 of 382
674
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-On a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman, if Mr. BERNACCHI is not sure of what I said, I will be glad to read the Motion once again. (Laughter). But bearing in mind that members do wish to get away early, I will be glad to hand him a copy of my speech for study later on this evening.
MR. SALES:-Mr. Chairman, if no other members wish to speak, may I as seconder, say a few words? First, this motion was introduced by the particular Select Committee of which I believe Mr. BERNACCHI is a member. It was adopted unanimously by that Select Committee.
MR. BERNACCHI:-On a point of order, it was adopted unanimously at a meeting at which I was not present.
MR. SALES: Yes, I believe in his absence. Nevertheless, Mr. BERNACCHI had the opportunity of putting his views if he had wanted to. I believe that this is an improvement of the Standing Orders of the Council, as I believe also, that the Select Committee should carry on reviewing the Standing Orders, so as to keep improving them, because there are many possibilities of the Standing Orders being improved upon by this Council in the public interest, and I think also that the Standing Committee ought to take upon itself the conducting of a seminar on Standing Orders so that all Urban Councillors, both official and unofficial, may benefit from attendance. This afternoon we had a striking example of the Chairman of one of our political parties not knowing his Standing Orders. (Laughter). So this example can be repeated time and again. Therefore, Sir, in all seriousness, I think that the study of Standing Orders will mean better meetings, and I commend that study to all my colleagues.
DR. BELL:-Mr. Chairman, like Mr. BERNACCHI, I hadn't really intended to speak on this motion, but I too was a little puzzled by it. I couldn't quite see the advantages of it or even the disadvantages of it. It seems to me a very innocuous sort of thing, and didn't seem to make very much difference; but I do feel that perhaps some of the ultra vires motions which Mr. CHEONG-LEEN has managed to get passed by the Committee of the Whole Council rather quickly, because we have been sort of dissolved from being a Council into the Committee of the Whole Council, and then resumed as the Council again, might very well not have got passed if we sat a little bit longer in Committee of the Whole, the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. So I think, like Mr. BERNACCHI, I also will abstain from voting on this Motion.
MR. SALES:-Mr. Chairman, may I clarify this situation. Dr. BELL as usual spoke with tremendous earnestness, and with every great eloquence, but what she says does not tally with Roberts Rules of Orders or any known system of Standing Orders. This is the correct way of procedure, and there is no doubt about that. I have tried to explain in the past. There is a vast difference between a Standing Committee of the Whole Council, and the Council going into Committee of the Whole. I will not do so again, because evidently my efforts have not produced the results that I had intended they would. (Laughter).
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
675
DR. BELL:-On a point of clarification, I don't think I have ever heard Mr. SALES expounding on either of these Committees.
MR. HU: Mr. Chairman, originally it was the Council in Committee of the Whole. Now it is to be changed to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. If you change the wording from Council in Committee of the Whole to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council, does it correspond with other sub-sections in Standing Orders?
MR. SALES:-Sir, the amendment to the Standing Order introduced today does not at any time affect the power of the Council going into Committee of the Whole. That is understood. We did that today and we can do that at any time that we wish. Even at a meeting a Member may suddenly move that the Council go into Committee of the Whole, that is a procedural device. Now, the Standing Committee of the Whole Council is a meeting which has to be convened. It is an entirely different matter, and it is a Standing Committee of the Council and not Council going into Committee of the Whole. Sir, may I move that the question be put?
CHAIRMAN:-Motion proposed. Motion carried with two abstentions.
MR. HU:-Mr. Chairman, I am also abstaining from voting.
CHAIRMAN:-Motion carried with three abstentions.
CHAIRMAN: In view of the fact that this Motion, Item 4(3) has been carried, Mr. CHEONG-LEEN'S Motion listed as 4(4) cannot be debated at this meeting, but will be referred to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council.
DATE OF NEXT COUNCIL MEETING
CHAIRMAN:-That concludes the business of this meeting, but there is one notification I must make about the date of the next meeting. Her Royal Highness Princess Margaret will be arriving in Hong Kong on the 1st March, the day of which this Council would normally meet. The programme shows that Her Royal Highness will arrive at Queen's Pier at 4 p.m. and I believe that the Members of this Council will be included in the welcoming party. In view of this I propose, unless
Page 349 of 382
676
...
Page 349 of 382
Page 348 of 382
674
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-On a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman, if Mr. BERNACCHI is not sure of what I said, I will be glad to read the Motion once again. (Laughter). But bearing in mind that members do wish to get away early, I will be glad to hand him a copy of my speech for study later on this evening.
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, if no other members wish to speak, may I as seconder, say a few words? First, this motion was introduced by the particular Select Committee of which I believe Mr. BERNACCHI is a member. It was adopted unanimously by that Select Committee.
MR. BERNACCHI:-On a point of order, it was adopted unani- mously at a meeting at which I was not present.
MR. SALES: Yes, I believe in his absence. Nevertheless, Mr. BERNACCHI had the opportunity of putting his views if he had wanted to. I believe that this is an improvement of the Standing Orders of the Council, as I believe also, that the Select Committee should carry on reviewing the Standing Orders, so as to keep improving them, because there are many possibilities of the Standing Orders being improved upon by this Council in the public interest, and I think also that the Standing Committee ought to take upon itself the conducting of a seminar on Standing Orders so that all Urban Councillors, both official and unofficial, may benefit from attendance. This afternoon we had a striking example of the Chairman of one of our political parties not knowing his Standing Orders. (Laughter). So this example can be repeated time and again. Therefore, Sir, in all seriousness, I think that the study of Standing Orders will mean better meetings, and I commend that study to all my colleagues.
DR. BELL:-Mr. Chairman, like Mr. BERNACCHI, I hadn't really intended to speak on this motion, but I too was a little puzzled by it. I couldn't quite see the advantages of it or even the disadvantages of it. It seems to me a very innocuous sort of thing, and didn't seem to make very much difference; but I do feel that perhaps some of the ultra vires motions which Mr. CHEONG-LEEN has managed to get passed by the Committee of the Whole Council rather quickly, because we have been sort of dissolved from being a Council into the Committee of the Whole Council, and then resumed as the Council again, might very well not have got passed if we sat a little bit longer in Committee of the Whole, the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. So I think, like Mr. BERNACCHI, I also will abstain from voting on this Motion.
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, may I clarify this situation. Dr. BELL as usual spoke with tremendous earnestness, and with every great eloquence, but what she says does not tally with Roberts Rules of Orders or any known system of Standing Orders. This is the correct
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
675
way of procedure, and there is no doubt about that. I have tried to explain in the past. There is a vast difference between a Standing Committee of the Whole Council, and the Council going into Committee of the Whole. I will not do so again, because evidently my efforts have not produced the results that I had intended they would. (Laughter).
DR. BELL:-On a point of clarification, I don't think I have ever heard Mr. SALES expounding on either of these Committees.
MR. HU: Mr. Chairman, originally it was the Council in Com- mittee of the Whole. Now it is to be changed to the Standing Com- mittee of the Whole Council. If you change the wording from Council in Committee of the Whole to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council, does it correspond with other sub-sections in Standing Orders?
MR. SALES: -Sir, the amendment to the Standing Order introduced today does not at any time affect the power of the Council going into Committee of the Whole. That is understood. We did that today and we can do that at any time that we wish. Even at a meeting a Member may suddenly move that the Council go into Committee of the Whole, that is a procedural device. Now, the Standing Committee of the Whole Council is a meeting which has to be convened. It is an entirely different matter, and it is a Standing Committee of the Council and not Council going into Committee of the Whole. Sir, may I move that the question be put?
tions.
CHAIRMAN:-Motion proposed. Motion carried with two absten-
MR. HU:-Mr. Chairman, I am also abstaining from voting.
CHAIRMAN: -Motion carried with three abstentions.
CHAIRMAN: In view of the fact that this Motion, Item 4(3) has been carried, Mr. CHEONG-LEEN'S Motion listed as 4(4) cannot be debated at this meeting, but will be referred to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council.
DATE OF NEXT COUNCIL MEETING.
CHAIRMAN: --That concludes the business of this meeting, but there is one notification I must make about the date of the next meeting. Her Royal Highness Princess Margaret will be arriving in Hong Kong on the 1st March, the day of which this Council would normally meet. The programme shows that Her Royal Highness will arrive at Queen's Pier at 4 p.m. and I believe that the Members of this Council will be included in the welcoming party. In view of this I propose, unless
No comments yet.
Private notes are available after approval.