1965 — Page 327

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

Page 327 of 382

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

DR. WOO: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, what is the time limit for a member to repeat a question in the Council?

CHAIRMAN: -I do not get your point Sir. I am not aware there is a time limit to repeat a question.

DR. Woo: -I believe six months. But in this case, 7th September and 1st February is less than five months.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, I do think this is relevant, since I think quite obviously there is nothing else but favouritism to Appointed Members.

MR. SALES: ---Mr. Chairman, if the Elected Members, specifically the Civic Association Elected Members, are prepared to ignore the needs of the poor children of Hong Kong for recreational purposes in splitting hairs over the time limit, then there is, Mr. Chairman, no hope for the Civic Association at the next election. (Laughter).

DR. Woo: -On a point of clarification, I am reminding Mr. SALES about the time which must lapse before a question can be asked again.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. SALES, since when has he set himself up for a one-man gallop poll for Hong Kong?

MR. HU: -Mr. CHEONG-LEEN asked about exhaust fumes at the October meeting. (Laughter). Yet he now asks another question on the same subject at this meeting.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN : · On a point of order, or clarification, I believe my question in October had more to do with exhaust fumes from petrol engines. Today the emphasis is on diesel engines. (Laughter).

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, excuse me. I think Mr. Henry Hu makes such good sense that he ought to be seated on this side of the table. (Laughter).

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, could the permission of the Reform Club be obtained?

CHAIRMAN: -Do you wish to proceed with the question?

DR. WOO: -Have you answered my question?

MR. SALES: Dr. Woo is confused. The time limit refers only to Motions. I was wondering whether his colleague, Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, might have set him right as Chairman of the Standing Orders and Procedures Committee, but he didn't know either. (Laughter).

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, Dr. Woo did not ask me specifically on that. He asked the Chairman.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

633

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, if as you pointed out in your reply, there is much demand for open ground for purposes other than recreation, then for that reason as well as for the reason which I am now requesting, Government must take a decision rather than prevaricate on this matter. We are asking not for the whole; if we can't get the whole, we want part. If Government decides that a part of that land is needed for storing of motor cars for big business and other such people, why is it then that Government doesn't come out and say so? That is my point. We have asked for a decision; we want to develop that part that is being used for recreation. Why is it that a decision has not been taken, one way or another, that is my point?

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS: -Mr. Chairman, before I try to answer that question, could Mr. SALES explain what he means by prevarication in his context? I am not aware that you told any lies in your answer, or that I told any lies in September.

MR. SALES: -Did I suggest that a lie was told by either you or your Official colleague? I suggested that Government prevaricated in reaching a decision, by suggesting that there were other demands as a reason for not reaching a decision, and giving us control over part of the land that we want. I think that that is very clear, and has been clear all along.

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS: -Mr. Chairman, he is accusing Government, and me who gave the answer, of prevarication.

MR. SALES: -I have accused you, Sir, and all those associated with you of having prevaricated on this matter. I don't withdraw my accusations.

MR. BERNACCHI: -Mr. Chairman, although Mr. SALES is a member of many bodies, including the Reform Club also-(laughter) I must refer him to one of the Standing Orders which says that a Motion of criticism can only be--I am sorry-a criticism of a member can only be taken on a substantive Motion.

MR. SALES: -I did not criticise, Sir, I asked a question and made a statement. It was not criticism. It was my belief that this state of affairs existed because of the replies given to me here and in Select Committee. If I wanted to introduce a Motion of censure, I would have done so.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, arising out of what has been said so far, and referring particularly to that portion of what you have read out as being the reply from the Director of Public Works to Mr. SALES at the previous meeting, could you put it to Government that since land sales have fallen off and the price of land is not as high as

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Page 327 of 382 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL DR. WOO: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, what is the time limit for a member to repeat a question in the Council? CHAIRMAN: -I do not get your point Sir. I am not aware there is a time limit to repeat a question. DR. Woo: -I believe six months. But in this case, 7th September and 1st February is less than five months. MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, I do think this is relevant, since I think quite obviously there is nothing else but favouritism to Appointed Members. MR. SALES: ---Mr. Chairman, if the Elected Members, specifically the Civic Association Elected Members, are prepared to ignore the needs of the poor children of Hong Kong for recreational purposes in splitting hairs over the time limit, then there is, Mr. Chairman, no hope for the Civic Association at the next election. (Laughter). DR. Woo: -On a point of clarification, I am reminding Mr. SALES about the time which must lapse before a question can be asked again. MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. SALES, since when has he set himself up for a one-man gallop poll for Hong Kong? MR. HU: -Mr. CHEONG-LEEN asked about exhaust fumes at the October meeting. (Laughter). Yet he now asks another question on the same subject at this meeting. MR. CHEONG-LEEN : · On a point of order, or clarification, I believe my question in October had more to do with exhaust fumes from petrol engines. Today the emphasis is on diesel engines. (Laughter). MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, excuse me. I think Mr. Henry Hu makes such good sense that he ought to be seated on this side of the table. (Laughter). MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, could the permission of the Reform Club be obtained? CHAIRMAN: -Do you wish to proceed with the question? DR. WOO: -Have you answered my question? MR. SALES: Dr. Woo is confused. The time limit refers only to Motions. I was wondering whether his colleague, Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, might have set him right as Chairman of the Standing Orders and Procedures Committee, but he didn't know either. (Laughter). MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, Dr. Woo did not ask me specifically on that. He asked the Chairman. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 633 MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, if as you pointed out in your reply, there is much demand for open ground for purposes other than recreation, then for that reason as well as for the reason which I am now requesting, Government must take a decision rather than prevaricate on this matter. We are asking not for the whole; if we can't get the whole, we want part. If Government decides that a part of that land is needed for storing of motor cars for big business and other such people, why is it then that Government doesn't come out and say so? That is my point. We have asked for a decision; we want to develop that part that is being used for recreation. Why is it that a decision has not been taken, one way or another, that is my point? DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS: -Mr. Chairman, before I try to answer that question, could Mr. SALES explain what he means by prevarication in his context? I am not aware that you told any lies in your answer, or that I told any lies in September. MR. SALES: -Did I suggest that a lie was told by either you or your Official colleague? I suggested that Government prevaricated in reaching a decision, by suggesting that there were other demands as a reason for not reaching a decision, and giving us control over part of the land that we want. I think that that is very clear, and has been clear all along. DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS: -Mr. Chairman, he is accusing Government, and me who gave the answer, of prevarication. MR. SALES: -I have accused you, Sir, and all those associated with you of having prevaricated on this matter. I don't withdraw my accusations. MR. BERNACCHI: -Mr. Chairman, although Mr. SALES is a member of many bodies, including the Reform Club also-(laughter) I must refer him to one of the Standing Orders which says that a Motion of criticism can only be--I am sorry-a criticism of a member can only be taken on a substantive Motion. MR. SALES: -I did not criticise, Sir, I asked a question and made a statement. It was not criticism. It was my belief that this state of affairs existed because of the replies given to me here and in Select Committee. If I wanted to introduce a Motion of censure, I would have done so. MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, arising out of what has been said so far, and referring particularly to that portion of what you have read out as being the reply from the Director of Public Works to Mr. SALES at the previous meeting, could you put it to Government that since land sales have fallen off and the price of land is not as high as 632 12 Page 327 of 382

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of 382 632 12 Page 327 of 382 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL DR. WOO:Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, what is the time limit for a member to repeat a question in the Council? CHAIRMAN:-I do not get your point Sir. I am not aware there is a time limit to repeat a question. DR. Woo:-I believe six months. But in this case, 7th September and 1st February is less than five months. MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, I do think this is relevant, since I think quite obviously there is nothing else but favouritism to Appointed Members. MR. SALES: ---Mr. Chairman, if the Elected Members, specifically the Civic Association Elected Members, are prepared to ignore the needs of the poor children of Hong Kong for recreational purposes in splitting hairs over the time limit, then there is, Mr. Chairman, no hope for the Civic Association at the next election. (Laughter). DR. Woo:-On a point of clarification, I am reminding Mr. SALES about the time which must lapse before a question can be asked again. MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. SALES, since when has he set himself up for a one-man gallop poll for Hong Kong? MR. HU:-Mr. CHEONG-LEEN asked about exhaust fumes at the October meeting. (Laughter). Yet he now asks another question on the same subject at this meeting. MR. CHEONG-LEEN : · On a point of order, or clarification, I believe my question in October had more to do with exhaust fumes from petrol engines. Today the emphasis is on diesel engines. (Laughter). MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, excuse me. I think Mr. Henry Hu makes such good sense that he ought to be seated on this side of the table. (Laughter). MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, could the permission of the Reform Club be obtained? CHAIRMAN:-Do you wish to proceed with the question? DR. WOO:-Have you answered my question? MR. SALES: Dr. Woo is confused. The time limit refers only to Motions. I was wondering whether his colleague, Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, might have set him right as Chairman of the Standing Orders and Procedures Committee, but he didn't know either. (Laughter). MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, Dr. Woo did not ask me specifically on that. He asked the Chairman. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 633 MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, if as you pointed out in your reply, there is much demand for open ground for purposes other than recrea- tion, then for that reason as well as for the reason which I am now requesting, Government must take a decision rather than prevaricate on this matter. We are asking not for the whole; if we can't get the whole, we want part. If Government decides that a part of that land is needed for storing of motor cars for big business and other such people, why is it then that Government doesn't come out and say so? That is my point. We have asked for a decision; we want to develop that part that is being used for recreation. Why is it that a decision has not been taken, one way or another, that is my point? DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS:-Mr. Chairman, before I try to answer that question, could Mr. SALES explain what he means by prevarication in his context? I am not aware that you told any lies in your answer, or that I told any lies in September. MR. SALES: -Did I suggest that a lie was told by either you or your Official colleague? I suggested that Government prevaricated in reaching a decision, by suggesting that there were other demands as a reason for not reaching a decision, and giving us control over part of the land that we want. I think that that is very clear, and has been clear all along. DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS:-Mr. Chairman, he is accusing Government, and me who gave the answer, of prevarication. MR. SALES: -I have accused you, Sir, and all those associated I don't withdraw my with you of having prevaricated on this matter. accusations. MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, although Mr. SALES is a member of many bodies, including the Reform Club also-(laughter) I must refer him to one of the Standing Orders which says that a Motion of criticism can only be--I am sorry-a criticism of a member can only be taken on a substantive Motion. MR. SALES: -I did not criticise, Sir, I asked a question and made a statement. It was not criticism. It was my belief that this state of affairs existed because of the replies given to me here and in Select Committee. If I wanted to introduce a Motion of censure, I would have done so. MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, arising out of what has been said so far, and referring particularly to that portion of what you have read out as being the reply from the Director of Public Works to Mr. SALES at the previous meeting, could you put it to Government that since land sales have fallen off and the price of land is not as high as

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Page 327 of 382

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

DR. WOO:Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, what is the time limit for a member to repeat a question in the Council?

CHAIRMAN:-I do not get your point Sir. I am not aware there is a time limit to repeat a question.

DR. Woo:-I believe six months. But in this case, 7th September and 1st February is less than five months.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, I do think this is relevant, since I think quite obviously there is nothing else but favouritism to Appointed Members.

DR. Woo:-On a point of clarification, I am reminding Mr. SALES about the time which must lapse before a question can be asked again.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. SALES, since when has he set himself up for a one-man gallop poll for Hong Kong?

MR. HU:-Mr. CHEONG-LEEN asked about exhaust fumes at the October meeting. (Laughter). Yet he now asks another question on the same subject at this meeting.

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, excuse me. I think Mr. Henry Hu makes such good sense that he ought to be seated on this side of the table. (Laughter).

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, could the permission of the Reform Club be obtained?

CHAIRMAN:-Do you wish to proceed with the question?

DR. WOO:-Have you answered my question?

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, Dr. Woo did not ask me specifically on that. He asked the Chairman.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

633

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, if as you pointed out in your reply, there is much demand for open ground for purposes other than recrea- tion, then for that reason as well as for the reason which I am now requesting, Government must take a decision rather than prevaricate on this matter. We are asking not for the whole; if we can't get the whole, we want part. If Government decides that a part of that land is needed for storing of motor cars for big business and other such people, why is it then that Government doesn't come out and say so? That is my point. We have asked for a decision; we want to develop that part that is being used for recreation. Why is it that a decision has not been taken, one way or another, that is my point?

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS:-Mr. Chairman, before I try to answer that question, could Mr. SALES explain what he means by prevarication in his context? I am not aware that you told any lies in your answer, or that I told any lies in September.

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS:-Mr. Chairman, he is accusing Government, and me who gave the answer, of prevarication.

MR. SALES: -I have accused you, Sir, and all those associated I don't withdraw my with you of having prevaricated on this matter. accusations.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, although Mr. SALES is a member of many bodies, including the Reform Club also-(laughter) I must refer him to one of the Standing Orders which says that a Motion of criticism can only be--I am sorry-a criticism of a member can only be taken on a substantive Motion.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, arising out of what has been said so far, and referring particularly to that portion of what you have read out as being the reply from the Director of Public Works to Mr. SALES at the previous meeting, could you put it to Government that since land sales have fallen off and the price of land is not as high as

1965 — Page 327

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