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(c) Is it a fact that the Police have not made a consistent effort to protect that Estate from hawkers as repeatedly requested to do by the Housing Manager of the Estate and the Urban Services Department?
MR. B. A. BERNACCHI, CHAIRMAN OF THE HAWKERS SELECT COMMITTEE, replied as follows:
The policy of this Council on the control of hawkers in Housing Authority estates is: not to permit hawking in any part of an estate designated as prohibited to hawkers by the erection of appropriate signs, except where the licence is specifically endorsed to permit an individual hawker to hawk there.
I will take parts (b) and (c) of the question together. The Council has not so far been able to take effective action to clear hawkers from these parts of the Choi Hung estate where hawking is prohibited mainly owing to insufficient staff. Some hawkers there hold the law in contempt and are persistent to the extent of hawking alongside the notices. Another reason is that in the past, in view of their other commitments, the Police in this district have not been able to co-operate with this Council in devoting continuous attention to enforcing the law as it affects hawking in the Choi Hung estate. Before notice of your question was received, however, the Police and Urban Services Department had agreed a plan for joint and fairly sustained action against these particular hawkers and that plan, I understand, went into effect this morning.
MR. SALES: ---Sir, I am obliged to the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee for his positive reply to my questions. Now I would like to ask the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee, through you Sir, whether it was not a fact that the Choi Hung Estate was declared prohibited area to hawkers on the 15th October, 1965.
MR. BERNACCHI:-I am not certain of the exact date, but it was declared prohibited to hawkers or parts of the estate were declared prohibited to hawkers, about that date.
MR. SALES: Will the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee be satisfied with a statement by the Manager of the Choi Hung Estate made on the 3rd November, which I will ask your permission to read:
"The estate was declared a prohibited area to hawkers on the 15th October. Nevertheless, today, when nearly all my staff were collecting rents, 112 hawkers were counted on the estate. Twenty were selling cooked food or live poultry."
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MR. BERNACCHI:--I have no doubt that the Manager of the Choi Hung Estate was acting in all good faith when he made that statement, but of course to enforce the law as to prohibition of hawkers, the notice has to be gazetted, and the date that it is gazetted is the date when it is in fact prohibited to hawkers. Whether it was or was not gazetted on the date you mention, I do not at the present know.
MR. SALES-Sir, is the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee suggesting to this Council that the area was gazetted only today, when the Police went into action.
MR. BERNACCHI:-My answer to your question makes it clear that I am not so suggesting, and in fact it was gazetted a reasonably long time ago.
DR. BELL: If it was so gazetted a reasonably long time ago, why was it that the Police did not take action until the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies decided to visit that estate? (Laughter).
MR. BERNACCHI:-I cannot answer you on that question, but I can answer on Mr. SALES' previous question. The gazetting was indeed on the 15th October, 1965, so I am one question in arrears. (Laughter).
MR. SALES-Sir, before I let Mr. BERNACCHI catch up with my questions, if the gazetting was done on the 15th October, why is it that it has been necessary for the Police to take such a terribly long time before acting?
MR. BERNACCHI:-This Council has no control over the Police, and the Commissioner of Police is not a member of this Council. (Laughter).
MR. SALES: Sir, is not that a matter to regret? Now if the Police were able to take effective action, as Dr. BELL pointed out, at the time of the visit of the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, why was it that the Police ignored repeatedly the request made by the Housing Authority for some action to be taken in that estate?
MR. BERNACCHI:-I have nothing to add to my statement in answering your initial question; that in view of other commitments the Police in this district have not been able to co-operate with this Council in devoting continuous attention to enforcing the law as it affects hawking in Choi Hung Estate. Obviously at the time that you refer to in your supplementary question, they did have time to devote attention. (Laughter).
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I will ask my final supplementary question of my friend, the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee. If the information that is available to the members of the Hong Kong
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(c) Is it a fact that the Police have not made a consistent effort to protect that Estate from hawkers as repeatedly requested to do by the Housing Manager of the Estate and the Urban Services Department?
MR. B. A. BERNACCHI, CHAIRMAN OF THE HAWKERS SELECT COMMITTEE, replied as follows :·
The policy of this Council on the control of hawkers in Housing Authority estates is: not to permit hawking in any part of an estate designated as prohibited to hawkers by the erection of appropriate signs, except where the licence is specifically endorsed to permit an individual hawker to hawk there.
I will take parts (b) and (c) of the question together. The Council has not so far been able to take effective action to clear hawkers from these parts of the Choi Hung estate where hawking is prohibited mainly owing to insufficient staff. Some hawkers there hold the law in contempt and are persistent to the extent of hawking alongside the notices. Another reason is that in the past, in view of their other commitments, the Police in this district have not been able to co-operate with this Council in devoting continuous attention to enforcing the law as it affects hawking in the Choi Hung estate. Before notice of your question was received, however, the Police and Urban Services Department had agreed a plan for joint and fairly sustained action against these particular hawkers and that plan, I understand, went into effect this morning.
MR. SALES: ---Sir, I am obliged to the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee for his positive reply to my questions. Now I would like to ask the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee, through you Sir, whether it was not a fact that the Choi Hung Estate was declared prohibited area to hawkers on the 15th October, 1965.
MR. BERNACCHI:-I am not certain of the exact date, but it was declared prohibited to hawkers or parts of the estate were declared prohibited to hawkers, about that date.
MR. SALES: Will the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee be satisfied with a statement by the Manager of the Choi Hung Estate made on the 3rd November, which I will ask your permission to read:
"The estate was declared a prohibited area to hawkers on the 15th October. Nevertheless, today, when nearly all my staff were collecting rents, 112 hawkers were counted on the estate. Twenty were selling cooked food or live poultry."
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MR. BERNACCHI:--I have no doubt that the Manager of the Choi Hung Estate was acting in all good faith when he made that statement, but of course to enforce the law as to prohibition of hawkers, the notice has to be gazetted, and the date that it is gazetted is the date when it is in fact prohibited to hawkers. Whether it was or was not gazetted on the date you mention, I do not at the present know.
MR. SALES-Sir, is the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Com- mittee suggesting to this Council that the area was gazetted only today, when the Police went into action.
MR. BERNACCHI:-My answer to your question makes it clear that I am not so suggesting, and in fact it was gazetted a reasonably long time ago.
DR. BELL: If it was so gazetted a reasonably long time ago, why was it that the Police did not take action until the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies decided to visit that estate? (Laughter).
MR. BERNACCHI:-I cannot answer you on that question, but I can answer on Mr. SALES' previous question. The gazetting was indeed on the 15th October, 1965, so I am one question in arrears. (Laughter).
MR. SALES-Sir, before I let Mr. BERNACCHI catch up with my questions, if the gazetting was done on the 15th October, why is it that it has been necessary for the Police to take such a terribly long time before acting?
MR. BERNACCHI:-This Council has no control over the Police, and the Commissioner of Police is not a member of this Council. (Laughter).
MR. SALES: Sir, is not that a matter to regret? Now if the Police were able to take effective action, as Dr. BELL pointed out, at the time of the visit of the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, why was it that the Police ignored repeatedly the request made by the Housing Authority for some action to be taken in that estate?
MR. BERNACCHI:-I have nothing to add to my statement in answering your initial question; that in view of other commitments the Police in this district have not been able to co-operate with this Council in devoting continuous attention to enforcing the law as it affects hawking in Choi Hung Estate. Obviously at the time that you refer to in your supplementary question, they did have time to devote attention. (Laughter).
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I will ask my final supplementary question of my friend, the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee. If the information that is available to the members of the Hong Kong
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