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cussion on its proposals, or a more formal one with solicitors representing them. This is how the Board operates. But we have not, since the occasion to which the Chairman referred when Mr. SALES appeared as an objector in the case of the Central Areas plan, had the Council, or any member of the Council, objecting to a plan, simply because we have developed this liaison when the plans are, in fact, discussed informally with the Standing Committee, as the Tsim Sha Tsui plans were discussed some eighteen months ago. But if any member of the Council wished to appear before the Town Planning Board when they are hearing objections, they would be very welcome to do so.
MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, I thank, through you, the Director of Public Works for the explanation. I would like to clarify the position. I did not at any time appear before the Town Planning Board as an objector as he said. I was delegated, not by the Select Committee, but by the Urban Council to appear. In fact, I recall having asked Mr. BERNACCHI to come along with me, but he could not as he had to be in court, and I went along with Mr. Hector Ross if I am not mistaken. I went there as the representative of the Urban Council to put forward the Urban Council's views and suggestions and proposals, and certainly not as an individual objector. As an individual, I would not have gone to the Town Planning Board. Now may I continue with my supplementary question?
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS: May I speak Sir, on a point of explanation? I explained that this was legal phraseology, and Mr. SALES did appear on behalf of the Council, because the Council objected in the same way as the Commissioner of Police objected and other Government departments objected to that plan, as it was necessary for them to do to comply with the wording of the Ordinance.
CHAIRMAN: Sir, I must support you, I remember being present at the meeting. I think I said earlier this evening you did appear as a representative of the Council, not in your personal capacity.
MR. SALES: I would like that to be clearly reflected in the minutes of to-day's proceedings, that I appeared as a representative of the Urban Council and at no time personally. Now, Sir, may I ask you whether, as a member of the Town Planning Board, in your capacity as Director of Urban Services, you cannot properly represent the views of the Council on matters involving town planning, which you are required to do under section 55 of the Ordinance?
CHAIRMAN: Sir, I do not think it would be any breach of secrecy if I said I frequently raise matters, or attempt to, in the Town Planning Board which I think are matters considered to be of importance to this Council. I think the Director of Public Works will bear me out on that.
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MR. SALES: Thank you very much. In the circumstances the Council, having established certain proposals on the subject of the Tsim Sha Tsui plan, will you then give us a categorical assurance that as the Director of Urban Services you will pursue those proposals under section 55, and subsequently report back to us as to the findings of the Town Planning Board.
CHAIRMAN: Certainly.
MR. BERNACCHI: I would like to take up the point that has been mentioned by Mr. SALES indirectly, that members of the public cannot appear before the Town Planning Board in office hours, and I would like you to put forward to that Board the proposition that they should sit in the evenings. (Laughter).
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS: Mr. Chairman, I certainly would not object to that. I will put it to the Town Planning Board as I think it is a very reasonable proposal when objections are being heard.
MR. SALES: Sir, would you give the Council the categorical assurance that I seek from you under section 55?
CHAIRMAN: Sir, without looking more closely into this matter, I can give you the assurance that I would certainly, as a member of the Board, wish to make sure that the proposals which were put to the Board were considered, and I am sure the Chairman of the Board could not possibly object to that. I would expect a reply to the Council to be addressed from the Secretary in the first instance, as has been asked in the letter put to him, and this reply would then be conveyed to the members of the Council.
MR. SALES: Thank you very much, Sir.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN: Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that in putting forward the views of the Town Planning Board, the views of the Urban Council, that you give careful pre-consideration to whom you hold the greater loyalty, to those above you in your capacity of Director of Urban Services, or to those around you in your capacity of Chairman Urban Council?
CHAIRMAN: Sir, it has always been my hope that you would not attempt further to split my personality. (Laughter).
MR. CHEONG-LEEN: Then do I understand, Sir, that in case the Town Planning Board should turn down the views expressed by this Council you would be prepared to resign from the Town Planning Board?
MR. SALES: Sir, if you are not going to give Mr. CHEONG-LEEN an answer may I ask Question No. 7.
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cussion on its proposals, or a more formal one with solicitors representing them. This is how the Board operates. But we have not, since the occasion to which the Chairman referred when Mr. SALES appeared as an objector in the case of the Central Areas plan, had the Council, or any member of the Council, objecting to a plan, simply because we have developed this liaison when the plans are, in fact, dis- cussed informally with the Standing Committee, as the Tsim Sha Tsui plans were discussed some eighteen months ago. But if any member of the Council wished to appear before the Town Planning Board when they are hearing obiections, they would be very welcome to do so.
MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, I thank, through you, the Director of Public Works for the explanation. I would like to clarify the position. I did not at any time appear before the Town Planning Board as an objector as he said. I was delegated, not by the Select Committee, but by the Urban Council to appear. In fact, I recall having asked Mr. BERNACCHI to come along with me, but he could not as he had to be in court, and I went along with Mr. Hector Ross if I am not mistaken. I went there as the representative of the Urban Council to put forward the Urban Council's views and suggestions and proposals, and certainly not as an individual objector. As an individual, I would not have gone to the Town Planning Board. Now may I continue with my supplementary question?
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS:-May I speak Sir, on a point of explanation? I explained that this was legal phraseology, and Mr. SALES did appear on behalf of the Council, because the Council objected in the same way as the Commissioner of Police objected and other Government departments objected to that plan, as it was necessary for them to do to comply with the wording of the Ordinance.
CHAIRMAN: Sir, I must support you, I remember being present at the meeting. I think I said earlier this evening you did appear as a representative of the Council, not in your personal capacity.
MR. SALES: --I would like that to be clearly reflected in the minutes of to-day's proceedings, that I appeared as a representative of the Urban Council and at no time personally. Now, Sir, may I ask you whether, as a member of the Town Planning Board, in your capacity as Director of Urban Services, you cannot properly represent the views of the Council on matters involving town planning, which you are required to do under section 55 of the Ordinance?
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I do not think it would be any breach of secrecy if I said I frequently raise matters, or attempt to, in the Town Planning Board which I think are matters considered to be of importance to this Council. I think the Director of Public Works will bear me out on that.
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567
MR. SALES: Thank you very much. In the circumstances the Council, having established certain proposals on the subject of the Tsim Sha Tsui plan, will you then give us a categorical assurance that as the Director of Urban Services you will pursue those proposals under section 55, and subsequently report back to us as to the findings of the Town Planning Board.
CHAIRMAN:-Certainly.
MR. BERNACCHI:-I would like to take up the point that has been mentioned by Mr. SALES indirectly, that members of the public cannot appear before the Town Planning Board in office hours, and I would like you to put forward to that Board the proposition that they should sit in the evenings. (Laughter).
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS:-Mr. Chairman, I certainly would not object to that. I will put it to the Town Planning Board as I think it is a very reasonable proposal when objections are being heard.
MR. SALES: Sir, would you give the Council the categorical assur- ance that I seek from you under section 55?
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, without looking more closely into this matter, I can give you the assurance that I would certainly, as a member of the Board, wish to make sure that the proposals which were put to the Board were considered, and I am sure the Chairman of the Board could not possibly object to that. I would expect a reply to the Council to be addressed from the Secretary in the first instance, as has been asked in the letter put to him, and this reply would then be conveyed to the members of the Council.
MR. SALES: Thank you very much, Sir.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that in putting forward the views of the Town Planning Board, the views of the Urban Council, that you give careful pre-consideration to whom you hold the greater loyalty, to those above you in your capacity of Director of Urban Services, or to those around you in your capacity of Chairman Urban Council?
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, it has always been my hope that you would not attempt further to split my personality. (Laughter).
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Then do I understand, Sir, that in case the Town Planning Board should turn down the views expressed by this Council you would be prepared to resign from the Town Planning Board?
MR. SALES: Sir, if you are not going to give Mr. CHEONG-LEEN an answer may I ask Question No. 7.
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