Page 219 of 382
416
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
forget, sir, that I was addressed in the first instance on this matter as Chairman of the Urban Council, although I was asked to send a senior representative of the Department.
MR. BERNACCHI:-And when you say that the invitation is still open, you mean the invitation to send a representative, senior or otherwise, of the Urban Services Department?
CHAIRMAN:-No Sir, the latest memorandum received from the Registrar of the Supreme Court, which is dated 22nd November, 1965, says that if the department or the Council would wish to be represented on the Working Party and participate in its task, a representative would be welcome, but it is not intended in any way to press the Council or the department to make a representative available if they do not wish to do so.
MR. BERNACCHI:-That particular memorandum I had not heard of till you referred me to it just now. I am very pleased that you have had such a memorandum, and would you refer it to the Hawkers Select Committee?
CHAIRMAN:-That, Sir, is the intention.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Now in the last part of your answer, you say—I am sorry I am jumping ahead too much—you say in answer to paragraph (c), "Pending clarification of the scope of the Working Party's inquiry and its exact terms of reference". Have you yet had this matter clarified?
CHAIRMAN:-Yes sir, it has been clarified. I received a copy of a letter from the Chief Justice to, I think, a Justice of the Peace, confirming that the Working Party had been set up and that the terms of reference were in fact those which were initially stated to be those which would broadly be adopted, and the original terms of reference were in fact adopted "in toto".
MR. BERNACCHI:-And referring back to the first letter that you had from the Registrar, it inferred that those terms of reference were very wide?
CHAIRMAN:-I can merely quote you, Sir, this memorandum which says that the Chief Justice considered it appropriate to set up a Working Party whose terms of reference have not yet been precisely settled, but would broadly be—and then goes on to give the terms.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Now coming to the last part of your answer, I think it can be inferred from what I have said so far that the terms of reference of the Working Party do not impinge upon this Council's statutory and exclusive duties, but that some of its recommendations may.
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
417
I would seek clarification from you, Mr. Chairman, has the Chief Justice authority to give the working party terms of reference which include recommendations impinging on this Council's statutory and exclusive duties without the concurrence of this Council?
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I would require notice of a question as complicated as that, but I would point out to you that I do not think it was envisaged that there should necessarily be any complications such as you envisage in your question.
I must refer back to the point I made originally that the scope of the Working Party's inquiry and the manner in which persons are charged with offences, arising from hawking, etc., are dealt with by the summary courts, and that has been my understanding of the position all through. The Registrar of the Supreme Court did say, and this formed the basis of part of the answer which I have already given.
"The Working Party will of course be concerned with the work coming to the courts as a result of the prosecution of hawkers, etc. In so far as that work flows from the policy or decisions of the Urban Council the Working Party will naturally be concerned with the effect or results of these decisions or policy. Possibly as a result of the Working Party's deliberations suggestions may or may not be put to the Urban Services Department or the Urban Council on these matters but the conclusions of the Working Party or their recommendations would of course not bind the Council in any way."
MR. BERNACCHI:-Let me make my position clear, Mr. Chairman, by another personal statement. Far be it from me to want to appear to be criticizing this Working Party, the more the number of persons tackling this enormous problem of hawking the better, and indeed recommendations might very well come out, of enormous help to this Council but the statutory and exclusive authority of this Council, is not to be infringed by anyone, even the Chief Justice.
MR. SALES:-Sir, as this concerns the statutory position of this Council I think Mr. BERNACCHI's attitude covers that of all appointed members as well. We must necessarily protect the position of this Council in any matter which is within the purview of the Council, and this is a very serious situation, and we would urge it upon you to look into it most carefully.
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I would just like to add, I hope in the closing of this point, that I am sure there is no intention to undermine the statutory position of the Council in regard to hawkers. I myself strongly support Mr. BERNACCHI's endorsement of the need for such assistance as we can get in dealing with the hawker problem. For my own part
Page 219 of 382
416
...
417
Page 219 of 382
416
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
forget, sir, that I was addressed in the first instance on this matter as Chairman of the Urban Council, although I was asked to send a senior representative of the Department.
MR. BERNACCHI:-And when you say that the invitation is still open, you mean the invitation to send a representative, senior or other- wise, of the Urban Services Department?
CHAIRMAN: -No Sir, the latest memorandum received from the Registrar of the Supreme Court, which is dated 22nd November, 1965, says that if the department or the Council would wish to be repre- sented on the Working Party and participate in its task, a representa- tive would be welcome, but it is not intended in any way to press the Council or the department to make a representative available if they do not wish to do so.
MR. BERNACCHI:-That particular memorandum I had not heard of till you referred me to it just now. I am very pleased that you have had such a memorandum, and would you refer it to the Hawkers Select Committee?
CHAIRMAN:-That, Sir, is the intention.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Now in the last part of your answer, you say— I am sorry I am jumping ahead too much-you say in answer to para- graph (c), "Pending clarification of the scope of the Working Party's inquiry and its exact terms of reference". Have you yet had this matter clarified?
CHAIRMAN: -Yes sir, it has been clarified. I received a copy of a letter from the Chief Justice to, I think, a Justice of the Peace, con- firming that the Working Party had been set up and that the terms of reference were in fact those which were initially stated to be those which would broadly be adopted, and the original terms of reference were in fact adopted "in toto".
MR. BERNACCHI:-And referring back to the first letter that you had from the Registrar, it inferred that those terms of reference were very wide?
CHAIRMAN: I can merely quote you, Sir, this memorandum which says that the Chief Justice considered it appropriate to set up a Work- ing Party whose terms of reference have not yet been precisely settled, but would broadly be--and then goes on to give the terms.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Now coming to the last part of your answer, I think it can be inferred from what I have said so far that the terms of reference of the Working Party do not impinge upon this Council's statutory and exclusive duties, but that some of its recommendations
may.
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
417
I would seek clarification from you, Mr. Chairman, has the Chief Justice authority to give the working party terms of reference which include recommendations impinging on this Council's statutory and exclusive duties without the concurrence of this Council?
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I would require notice of a question as com- plicated as that, but I would point out to you that I do not think it was envisaged that there should necessarily be any complications such as you envisage in your question.
I must refer back to the point I made originally that the scope of the Working Party's inquiry and the manner in which persons are charged with offences, arising from hawking, etc., are dealt with by the summary courts, and that has been my understanding of the position all through. The Registrar of the Supreme Court did say, and this formed the basis of part of the answer which I have already given.
"The Working Party will of course be concerned with the work coming to the courts as a result of the prosecution of hawkers, etc. In so far as that work flows from the policy or decisions of the Urban Council the Working Party will naturally be concerned with the effect or results of these decisions or policy. Possibly as a result of the Working Party's deliberations suggestions may or may not be put to the Urban Services Department or the Urban Council on these matters but the conclusions of the Working Party or their recommendations would of course not bind the Council in any way."
MR. BERNACCHI:-Let me make my position clear, Mr. Chairman, by another personal statement. Far be it from me to want to appear to be criticizing this Working Party, the more the number of persons tackling this enormous problem of hawking the better, and indeed recommendations might very well come out, of enormous help to this Council but the statutory and exclusive authority of this Council, is not to be infringed by anyone, even the Chief Justice.
MR. SALES-Sir, as this concerns the statutory position of this Council I think Mr. BERNACCHI's attitude covers that of all appointed members as well. We must necessarily protect the position of this Council in any matter which is within the purview of the Council, and this is a very serious situation, and we would urge it upon you to look into it most carefully.
CHAIRMAN:Sir, I would just like to add, I hope in the closing of this point, that I am sure there is no intention to undermine the statu- tory position of the Council in regard to hawkers. I myself strongly support Mr. BERNACCHI's endorsement of the need for such assistance as we can get in dealing with the hawker problem. For my own part
No comments yet.
Private notes are available after approval.