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ritories, Outer Islands and the Harbour and Airport under the separate and direct authority of Government would result in divided responsibility and inevitably loss of that most essential factor in an emergency—centralized tactical control.

In my opinion the passing of this motion today, whatever the motives that inspired it, will be regarded by the Fire Services Department personnel as a vote of "no confidence" by this Council with the consequent lowering of morale and zeal that characterizes the Service today. I will not be party to such a motion and will therefore vote against it.

CHAIRMAN:- I have listened with close interest to the views expressed on the subject of the proposed management of the Fire Services Department by the Urban Council.

Let me inform Mr. FORSGATE that he and I have been spending this week-end in the same way, studying G. V. BLACKSTONE'S "History of the British Fire Services". If he has given up his golf, I have given up the pleasure of planting some petunias. (Laughter)

The effect of the motion would be to create two fire authorities: one for the urban areas excluding the harbour, seaport and airport, and one for the New Territories, the harbour, the seaport and airport.

I have been trying, as a matter of interest, to obtain some background information on the administration of fire services elsewhere, particularly in Britain, and I noticed that it is explained in the official handbook on Britain published by the Central Office of Information that the Fire Services in Great Britain are organized on a local basis, subject to a measure of central control. In England and Wales, under the Fire Services Act, 1947, separate fire brigades are administered by the county or county borough councils, which are the fire authorities for their areas. In England and Wales the Home Secretary and in Scotland the Secretary of State are empowered to make regulations prescribing such matters as the maintenance of discipline, training, and pensions in local fire brigades and their approval is necessary for certain reductions in establishment schemes. Central control is also exercised through the inspectors of fire services, who also advise on technical matters. The fire authorities bear the cost of maintaining the fire service. There is an Exchequer contribution which is included in the aggregate amount of the local authority general grant.

I am informed by the Director of Fire Services that the situation in Britain was once so unmanageable that in 1921 a Royal Commission was set up, which, with subsequent measures, led to the removal of many fire brigades from the control of urban and rural authorities by the Fire Brigades Act of 1938, which, as a result of the Second World War, was near fully enforced. Its eventual replacement by the Fire Services Act of 1947, which placed the control of fire brigades in the hands of about 130 fire authorities, eliminated just over 1,400 fire brigades managed by local authorities before the war.

I would like to refer at this point to certain statements made during the course of this debate.

First, the statement by Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, the proposer of the motion, that the Fire Services Department is some kind of Cinderella which sits appropriately enough in the ashes, receiving little attention from the Colonial Secretary. Sir, may I refer you to paragraph 12 of the Annual Departmental Report of the Director of Fire Services for the year 1964/65. The Department was completely reorganized in 1961, as Mr. FORSGATE has pointed out, following approval of a ten-year development plan. Experience over four years has indicated that the plan requires major modification in only two respects. In one case, remedial action has already been taken, and the other aspect is now receiving attention. A major re-organization of control of the Fire Services Department was in fact introduced with effect from 1st April, 1965.

I would also like to refer to the comment on page 158 of the Annual Report on Hong Kong for the year 1964. The continued growth of the Colony with its associated fire-fighting problems has been anticipated by a planned development and disposal of resources which should be completed early in 1970.

As regards recruitment, Mr. CHEONG-LEEN spoke of the low state of morale. I have no direct knowledge on this point, although I beg leave to doubt whether he is accurate in that respect, judging by the general performance of the Fire Services in times of crisis, but I would like to refer to the question of the serious state of recruitment, the continuing inability to recruit suitable trainee officers. This is also referred to in the department's 1964/65 Report. It is said there that the Fire Services remain 65% under establishment, but it is also pointed out that if a solution is not found within the next eighteen months, considerable recruitment of overseas officers will be necessary to avoid organizational collapse, and although the situation looks serious, it appears to be possible to meet it by overseas recruitment.

Reference has also been made to the existence of danger to the inhabitants of large multi-storey buildings, who are said to go to bed every night in a state of fear for their lives, because there is much inflammable rubbish and material blocking the passages. Of course, one answer to that by the Director of Fire Services might be that it is not his business to run a scavenging service, and he could possibly support some members of the Council in suggesting that rubbish accumulated in multi-storey buildings should be removed by the Urban Services Department.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Hear, hear. Hear, hear.

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