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the coming year. I cannot say that I regard the cuts made as likely to cause any serious jeopardy, at this stage anyway, to the Department.
MR. SALES: Sir, may I say
CHAIRMAN: ---May I be permitted, Sir, to conclude. Finally, I am instructed by the Colonial Secretary to say that there is no reason in principle why a representative of the Establishment Branch should not discuss the Department's Estimates with the Estimates Select Committee before the Estimates are referred to the Establishment Sub-Committee of Finance Committee for consideration and if the Council so wishes, steps will be taken to do this in future when appropriate. I am glad therefore to be able to say that Mr. WATSON's request can be met.
In the light of these remarks, I consider that I must vote against this motion.
MR. SALES: Sir, I was going to suggest that the Unofficial Members would be more than willing to waive Standing Orders to enable you to take all the time you wanted to explain Government's case, but you prevented me from showing you that courtesy. (Laughter).
CHAIRMAN: I am glad, Sir. Surely you did not consider that it would take me more than 20 minutes to explain Government's case.
MR. SALES: Sir, the watch does not err, not if it is the product of one of our colleagues across the table. (Laughter).
MR. CHEONG-LEEN: Mr. Chairman, I hope Mr. SALES means that as a compliment.
MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, had you been brave enough to accept the Unofficials' invitation to second this motion, much of the misunderstanding would not have arisen. (Laughter). A colleague of mine earlier this afternoon gave a garbled version, so characteristic of him, about how this motion was formed. In point of fact, at the monthly Hong Kong Tea Party of the Unofficial Members of this Council, Mr. WATSON explained the position to us and in the course of discussion, he was encouraged by the meeting to put forward this motion and to invite you to second it. The invitation was intended to show the very high regard in which the Unofficial Members of this Council hold the members of your own Department, so that in taking Government to task we wanted to make it very clear to the public that the Urban Services Department was not to be criticized at any cost. Unfortunately, Sir, being an Official Member, you are unable to support us, even when justice has to be done.
MR. WATSON in a very closely argued and eloquent speech has stated the case for the Unofficial Members. We are all behind him in this motion, Sir, and that was made clear in some very eloquent speeches from my colleagues across the table. I deplore the fact that a select committee of the Urban Council should be so naïve as to think that members of the Colonial Secretariat would accept their invitations—would accept in fact any invitations other than social ones. In this context, Sir, may I say that we also support the suggestion that the Police Force be brought under the control of the Urban Council. In the event, we would make this a completely police state, but that not being within our province just yet, we have to bide our time. However, Sir, Mr. WATSON has laid on the table the text of his speech which we accept completely, but what I feel sorry about is the fact that I am not able to accept the photograph which accompanies the text of his speech in the newspaper. It was probably taken by Mr. WATSON some considerable number of years ago and I do suggest that in future the Press reporters be allowed to use their own photographs. (Laughter).
MR. WATSON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, I might explain to Mr. SALES that it is extremely difficult to take a photograph of oneself. (Laughter).
MR. SALES: But that has been achieved by Mr. WATSON. However, there are two points which I would like to make and if I were as glib as Mr. CHEONG-LEEN is in mixing metaphors (Laughter).
MR. CHEONG-LEEN: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, Mr. SALES is even more glib than I am.
MR. SALES:
I would have suggested, just as he did some months ago, that this Council should milk the goose that lays the golden eggs, (Laughter) but being unable to do so, nevertheless, I would like to think that this motion which is Mr. WATSON's swan song is indeed a tour de force. He is leaving the Council with this tremendous show of strength. There are two points. First, Mr. Chairman, I sincerely deplore the fact that Government does not acknowledge the primacy of this Council in matters which come completely under its purview. And, if I may again do so this afternoon I recall the existence of Section 55 and ask you perhaps to print it and send it to every member of the Secretariat who has a chance to deal with this Council to remind them that your Department is expected at all times to carry out the policies and to implement the programmes of our Select Committees regardless of the attitude of the Colonial Secretariat. The second point which I would like to make, Mr. Chairman, is that I fail to see how any inter-departmental convention by which such Estimates are submitted to a number of functionaries in the ivory tower could supersede the statutory position of the Urban Council in such matters. That is a point that I would like to emphasize: No convention of Government can override the position of this Council in matters which pertain to the Council by statute.
I support Mr. WATSON.
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the coming year. I cannot say that I regard the cuts made as likely to cause any serious jeopardy, at this stage anyway, to the Department.
MR. SALES: Sir, may I say
CHAIRMAN: ---May I be permitted, Sir, to conclude. Finally, I am instructed by the Colonial Secretary to say that there is no reason in principle why a representative of the Establishment Branch should not discuss the Department's Estimates with the Estimates Select Committee before the Estimates are referred to the Establishment Sub-Committee of Finance Committee for consideration and if the Council so wishes, steps will be taken to do this in future when appropriate. I am glad therefore to be able to say that Mr. WATSON's request can be met.
In the light of these remarks, I consider that I must vote against this motion.
MR. SALES-Sir, I was going to suggest that the Unofficial Members would be more than willing to waive Standing Orders to enable you to take all the time you wanted to explain Government's case, but you prevented me from showing you that courtesy. (Laughter).
CHAIRMAN:-I am glad, Sir. Surely you did not consider that it would take me more than 20 minutes to explain Government's case.
MR. SALES: -Sir, the watch does not err, not if it is the product of one of our colleagues across the table. (Laughter).
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, I hope Mr. SALES means that as a compliment.
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, had you been brave enough to accept the Unofficials' invitation to second this motion, much of the misunder- standing would not have arisen. (Laughter). A colleague of mine carlier this afternoon gave a garbled version, so characteristic of him, about how this motion was formed. In point of fact, at the monthly Hong Kong Tea Party of the Unofficial Members of this Council, Mr. WATSON explained the position to us and in the course of discussion, he was encouraged by the meeting to put forward this motion and to invite you to second it. The invitation was intended to show the very high regard in which the Unofficial Members of this Council hold the members of your own Department, so that in taking Government to task we wanted to make it very clear to the public that the Urban Services Department was not to be criticized at any cost. Unfortunately, Sir, being an Official Member, you are unable to support us, even when justice has to be done.
MR. WATSON in a very closely argued and eloquent speech has stated the case for the Unofficial Members. We are all behind him in this motion, Sir, and that was made clear in some very eloquent speeches from my colleagues across the table. I deplore the fact that a select
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
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committee of the Urban Council should be so naïve as to think that members of the Colonial Secretariat would accept their invitations— would accept in fact any invitations other than social ones. In this context, Sir, may I say that we also support the suggestion that the Police Force be brought under the control of the Urban Council. In the event, we would make this a completely police state, but that not being within our province just yet, we have to bide our time. However, Sir, Mr. WATSON has laid on the table the text of his speech which we accept completely, but what I feel sorry about is the fact that I am not able to accept the photograph which accompanies the text of his speech in the newspaper. It was probably taken by Mr. WATSON some con- siderable number of years ago and I do suggest that in future the Press reporters be allowed to use their own photographs. (Laughter).
MR. WATSON: -Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, I might explain to Mr. SALES that it is extremely difficult to take a photograph of oneself. (Laughter).
MR. SALES: But that has been achieved by Mr. WATSON. However, there are two points which I would like to make and if I were as glib as Mr. CHEONG-LEEN is in mixing metaphors (Laughter).
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, Mr. SALES is even more glib than I am.
MR. SALES:
I would have suggested, just as he did some months ago, that this Council should milk the goose that lays the golden eggs, (Laughter) but being unable to do so, nevertheless, I would like to think that this motion which is Mr. WATSON's swan song is indeed a tour de force. He is leaving the Council with this tremendous show of strength. There are two points. First, Mr. Chairman, I sincerely deplore the fact that Government does not acknowledge the primacy of this Council in matters which come completely under its purview. And, if I may again do so this afternoon I recall the existence of Section 55 and ask you perhaps to print it and send it to every member of the Secretariat who has a chance to deal with this Council to remind them that your Department is expected at all times to carry out the policies and to implement the programmes of our Select Committees regardless of the attitude of the Colonial Secretariat. The second point which I would like to make, Mr. Chairman, is that I fail to see how any inter-depart- mental convention by which such Estimates are submitted to a number of functionaries in the ivory tower could supersede the statutory position of the Urban Council in such matters. That is a point that I would like to emphasize: No convention of Government can override the position of this Council in matters which pertain to the Council by statute.
I support Mr. WATSON.
No comments yet.
Private notes are available after approval.