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are not full and detailed, this might cause Urban Councillors, who are used to coping with mountains of minutes, to raise such a clamour that our good friend the Honourable Director of Medical and Health Services will find the burden of office increased immeasurably thereby. But whether or not any embarrassment will be caused, I am of the opinion that the motion should be supported by all Unofficial Members of the Council.

As you are aware, Sir, we are in favour of having Unofficial Urban Councillors sitting on various Boards and Committees. The Medical Advisory Board is a case in point. We see no reason why the Urban Council should not be represented on the Medical Advisory Board by an Unofficial. Medical and health services are of such vital importance to the people of Hong Kong that this should seem to be a sensible thing for Government to do. The Vice-Chairman of the Urban Council, as already mentioned by Mr. BERNACCHI, ought to be sitting on the Medical Advisory Board in his capacity as Deputy Director of Medical and Health Services, and not otherwise. But so long as he is on the Medical Advisory Board in his capacity as Vice-Chairman of this Council, he has a duty--which is both right and reasonable to make available to all Members of the Council the full text of the minutes of each meeting of the Medical Advisory Board.

There will be times, of course, when highly confidential matters may be raised at meetings of the Medical Advisory Board. On such occa- sions, the Chairman and members of the Board will, of course, have to exercise their discretion as to whether discussion on such matters should be reported in the minutes of that body.

It is to be hoped that this motion will be passed at to-day's meeting of the Council. On the other hand, some Members may wish to have it referred to the Standing Committee of the Whole for a more detailed discussion. To this I personally would have no objection since all Unofficial Members are fully agreed on the principle of Unofficial re- presentation on the Board, but what must now be clarified are the method and the approach.

DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF MEDICAL AND HEALTH SERVICES: -Mr. Chair- man, though I agree with very much of what has been said so far on this motion, I think there may be some misunderstanding about the role of the Vice-Chairman as a member of the Medical Advisory Board.

I am advised that he is appointed to the Board, ex officio, in his capacity as Vice-Chairman of the Urban Council, not as a representative of the Urban Council, but for the reason that he is Vice-Chairman and therefore considered to be a suitable person for appointment to the Board, presumably because he would be in a position to inform the Board of the views of the Council on any matter coming before it, which

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was within its sphere, and also because there would be an advantage in conducting any liaison which might be necessary in a health matter affecting both the Council and the Board. I am also advised that having regard to this, the Vice-Chairman is under no obligation to disclose to the Urban Council anything which takes place at a meeting of the Board or to furnish to the Council the minutes of the Board.

The Vice-Chairman's duties in relation to his membership of the Council as defined in Section 57 of the Urban Council Ordinance, are to assist and advise on medical matters, including matters of public health and sanitation; but this surely cannot be taken to imply a duty to make available the full minutes of another statutory body on which he may be appointed to serve, and which includes in its business, matters entirely unrelated to the present statutory responsibilities of the Urban Council.

This is an entirely different position, for example, to representatives of the Urban Council nominated by the Council for appointment to the Traffic Advisory Committee; such persons are representatives of the Council and as such are considered to be under an obligation to keep the Council informed of the proceedings of the Committee.

For these reasons therefore, I am sure Members will, on considera- tion, appreciate that as an individually appointed member of the Medical Advisory Board, the Vice-Chairman has neither a duty nor the authority to make the full minutes of the Medical Advisory Board's meetings available to the Council. But I have been assured that the Chairman of the Medical Advisory Board would certainly agree that the views and recommendations of the Board on any matters directly related to the Urban Council's responsibilities would be communicated in full to the Council.

I must therefore oppose the motion.

MR. A. de O. SALES: -Sir, I would like to move that Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion, seconded by Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, be referred to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council for study and eventual action. I am doing so by agreement, nay, by collusion, so to speak. There are certain aspects of this motion which need considerable study and discussion. It is no secret that I think that this Urban Council should have far greater say in many other matters which are not now within its purview. It is also no secret that medical men on the Unofficial side can be found on both sides of this table. As I mentioned before, we, the Appointed Members, also have a medical man; he may not be registered (Laughter) but that does not mean that he is no less qualified than the medical men on the other side of the table. The Vice-Chairman has raised a point with which I cannot say that I agree with him at the first blush. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I move that this motion be referred to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council.

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