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of having hawkers inside markets, but because it is certain that, if there are hawkers on the ground floor and hawkers on the first floor of a market, it is the former who will get the business. The full extent of the lessons to be learned from Tang Lung Chau market has not yet become There have all along been some hawkers apparent. trading on the ground floor of the market. As Members will recall, hawkers were moved from Jardine's Bazaar into Jardine's Crescent about five weeks ago and I under- stand that there is yet some re-ordering to be done in the Crescent which may well result in more hawkers trading from the market, although it is doubtful whether they will wish to do so on the upper floors.

Regarding the general market programme, it is true that con- struction has been in abeyance for over a year, arising from initial experience at Tang Lung Chau. As a further point, it will be appreciated that markets sited in the more densely populated areas can take up very valuable land and it is desirable to be quite clear before proposing the use of this land for this purpose, that the right type of building is constructed. I understand that the broader question of the real need for markets was discussed at length at a recent meeting of the Markets Select Committee and that it was decided that, as a case study, a survey should be conducted in respect of the area which would be served by one of the two projects at present in Cate- gory A of the Public Works Programme, namely, the pro- posed market at North Point. This is, of course, poten- tially a very wide question indeed, as it should involve an assessment of population development and alternative ways in which the public can purchase the commodities sold in markets, e.g., through fresh provision shops. I hope that the survey will be completed before long, in order that decisions can be taken as soon as possible on whether new markets are to be built (or existing markets rebuilt) and if so, the most suitable type for construction.

I know that the Chairman of the Markets Select Committee has views on this subject and I would ask him to express them now.

OF THE MARKETS SELECT MR. WILFRED WONG, CHAIRMAN COMMITTEE: -Mr. Chairman, it is very gallant of you to accept respon- However, the Markets Select Com- sibility for the market programme. mittee cannot escape responsibility in not implementing the policy de- cisions of the previous years and in going round and round the mulberry bush.

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Mr. CHEUNG Wing-in has caught the Markets Select Committee barefooted because we have no programme at the present moment. The Tang Lung Chau Market is, in my opinion, a success regardless of the fact whether the composite part of it, i.e., stalls for hawkers, is function- ing to the fullest extent. With regard to the reason for holding up the important market programme and whether new schemes have been worked out, I would like to give a situation report.

I assumed the chairmanship only on 1st April this year and managed to call one meeting in July. During this meeting a general discussion on the market programme took place. There were diverse views from the members, from the Department and from the Public Works Department represented by the Deputy Director of Public Works (Buildings and Lands). Personally, I would say that ever since the first little pig went to market, the market has been the economic institu- tion for the sale of food to the public at low cost. The reason lies in low rentals for market stalls and the low cost of delivery due to the concentration of foodstuffs in one location. I need not remind Members that this is where Alfred Marshall's theory of Place Utility and Time Utility applies. The market is the most economic of selling institutions.

Generally, the programme envisaged three markets on the Hong Kong side and three markets on the Kowloon side, and some improve- ment of the present markets. Particularly, as an item covering con- struction of the North Point Market is already in Category A of the Public Works Programme, I am in favour of proceeding forthwith with its construction. The people living in the North Point area want a market. In fact they feel somewhat discriminated against in that North Point is the only area with a population of almost a hundred thousand people without a district market. Chun Yeung Street, which is presently full of hawkers and is serving as a market under unhygienic conditions, is retrogressive and a disgrace to the area.

There is a school of thought which maintains that because hawkers have not taken full advantage of the stalls provided for them in the Tang Lung Chau Market, the market programme should be scrapped. This is putting the cart before the horse. Surely the primary object of the Markets Select Committee is to provide and manage markets. To absorb certain fixed pitch and pedlar hawkers is a secondary objective. We have heard the story "For the want of a nail the rider was lost". I would paraphrase it to read: "For the want of a hawker the market was lost". There are other objections to the market programme, such as "meat was sold cheaper in provision shops than in the markets." I would very much like to see this remark proven by statistics. My information is quite to the contrary. It could not be economically true because of the high ground rents in the North Point area, even though provision shops sell other commodities.