1963 — Page 115

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

CHAIRMAN:-Sir, the answer is "Yes". I refer specifically, Sir, to Section 55 as amended in 1960.

MR. BERNACCHI:-The question was the amendment and/or the Objects and Reasons.

CHAIRMAN: Sir, I am not certain about the Objects and Reasons, but I would like, if I may, to refer to Section 55. This section was amended in 1960, and as far as I can ascertain, before the amendment was made it was referred to the Urban Council under cover of Committee Paper CW55/59 which was issued in accordance with a memorandum from the Colonial Secretary. The amendment was agreed by the Urban Council at its meeting on 6th October, 1959. Another Paper CW61/59 was subsequently issued on the relationship between the Urban Council and the Urban Services Department. You, Sir, then asked for this particular paper to be discussed, but it was never done because, as I understand it, you finally proposed, and it was agreed, that the discussion should be adjourned sine die. This was recorded in paragraph 1 of Committee Minutes CW10/59 of 5th January, 1960. On the subject of the Objects and Reasons, Sir, I will have to give you a reply later.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Thank you, Sir. Although I vaguely remember that the amendment to Section 55 was so referred I have no recollection of the Objects and Reasons being referred at all. Now, the second supplementary is, of course, a legal one. Does the Chairman know that the Objects and Reasons cannot be taken into consideration in interpreting an enactment?

CHAIRMAN:-I am grateful to you, Sir, for your observation.

(Laughter).

MR. BERNACCHI:-Might I express my opinion: it was indeed a very nice answer to give. The third supplementary is, again, I am afraid, going on the law: Does the Chairman appreciate that the word "includes" is sometimes interpreted as meaning "be" or "means"? In this case, of course, the appropriate word would be "be"-"shall be the doing of...

CHAIRMAN: --Sir, I can only say that I must bow to your knowledge on this subject. But I can assure you that I have sought the advice of the Legal Department of the Hong Kong Government and there seems to be no doubt in the minds of the experts there that Section 55 means what I think it means. (Laughter).

MR. BERNACCHI:-Am I right in saying that the old Section 55 was the old Section 7 in the pre-war Urban Council Ordinance?

CHAIRMAN: ---Sir, I must confess that I do not know. May I look into the matter later?

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

MR. BERNACCHI:-Assuming for a moment that I am right (Laughter), can we be told who supplied the information to the Legislative Council that pre-war it was never the intention that the section should be restrictive of the functions of that Department?

CHAIRMAN:-Sir, may I look into the matter later?

MR. BERNACCHI:-In the concluding remarks to the answer to my question (c), does the Chairman say that this is fair to this Council? That is to say, that this Council advises on beaches in the New Territories although apparently it has not any jurisdiction over it.

CHAIRMAN:-Section (c) of the reply is factual. I can only say, Sir, that I regard it as extremely courteous of the Urban Amenities Select Committee to give us its advice, which we seek only occasionally as far as I know.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Is there any connexion between the words “Urban Council" and the words "Urban Services Department"?

CHAIRMAN:-Yes, Sir, as outlined in my reply.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Would I be right in saying that there was not an Urban Services Department pre-war but a Sanitary Department?

CHAIRMAN:-I believe you are correct, Sir.

MR. BERNACCHI:-When I said that the old Section 55 was similar in terms to the old Section 7 of the Urban Council Ordinance (of course, read "Sanitary Department" for "Urban Services Department"); then am I right in saying that this Council was responsible for drafting the whole of the Urban Services Ordinance?

CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I must ask again if I may look into the matter.

MR. BERNACCHI:-If I am right in that remark, would you agree that it seems that the Urban Services Department was the baby of the Urban Council?

CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I would like to make a personal observation on this point. I am always conscious of being the servant of this Council, but I do not see that that precludes the Department from exercising functions outside the control of the Urban Council.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Two last questions. Is the Chairman aware that the Heung Yee Kuk has asked for a representative on this Council?

CHAIRMAN:-So I have been told.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Finally, would you agree, Sir, that this arose from a natural confusion of this Council with the Urban Services Department of Government?

Page 116 of 194

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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL CHAIRMAN:-Sir, the answer is "Yes". I refer specifically, Sir, to Section 55 as amended in 1960. MR. BERNACCHI:-The question was the amendment and/or the Objects and Reasons. CHAIRMAN: Sir, I am not certain about the Objects and Reasons, but I would like, if I may, to refer to Section 55. This section was amended in 1960, and as far as I can ascertain, before the amendment was made it was referred to the Urban Council under cover of Committee Paper CW55/59 which was issued in accordance with a memorandum from the Colonial Secretary. The amendment was agreed by the Urban Council at its meeting on 6th October, 1959. Another Paper CW61/59 was subsequently issued on the relationship between the Urban Council and the Urban Services Department. You, Sir, then asked for this particular paper to be discussed, but it was never done because, as I understand it, you finally proposed, and it was agreed, that the discussion should be adjourned sine die. This was recorded in paragraph 1 of Committee Minutes CW10/59 of 5th January, 1960. On the subject of the Objects and Reasons, Sir, I will have to give you a reply later. MR. BERNACCHI:-Thank you, Sir. Although I vaguely remember that the amendment to Section 55 was so referred I have no recollection of the Objects and Reasons being referred at all. Now, the second supplementary is, of course, a legal one. Does the Chairman know that the Objects and Reasons cannot be taken into consideration in interpreting an enactment? CHAIRMAN:-I am grateful to you, Sir, for your observation. (Laughter). MR. BERNACCHI:-Might I express my opinion: it was indeed a very nice answer to give. The third supplementary is, again, I am afraid, going on the law: Does the Chairman appreciate that the word "includes" is sometimes interpreted as meaning "be" or "means"? In this case, of course, the appropriate word would be "be"-"shall be the doing of... CHAIRMAN: --Sir, I can only say that I must bow to your knowledge on this subject. But I can assure you that I have sought the advice of the Legal Department of the Hong Kong Government and there seems to be no doubt in the minds of the experts there that Section 55 means what I think it means. (Laughter). MR. BERNACCHI:-Am I right in saying that the old Section 55 was the old Section 7 in the pre-war Urban Council Ordinance? CHAIRMAN: ---Sir, I must confess that I do not know. May I look into the matter later? HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. BERNACCHI:-Assuming for a moment that I am right (Laughter), can we be told who supplied the information to the Legislative Council that pre-war it was never the intention that the section should be restrictive of the functions of that Department? CHAIRMAN:-Sir, may I look into the matter later? MR. BERNACCHI:-In the concluding remarks to the answer to my question (c), does the Chairman say that this is fair to this Council? That is to say, that this Council advises on beaches in the New Territories although apparently it has not any jurisdiction over it. CHAIRMAN:-Section (c) of the reply is factual. I can only say, Sir, that I regard it as extremely courteous of the Urban Amenities Select Committee to give us its advice, which we seek only occasionally as far as I know. MR. BERNACCHI:-Is there any connexion between the words “Urban Council" and the words "Urban Services Department"? CHAIRMAN:-Yes, Sir, as outlined in my reply. MR. BERNACCHI:-Would I be right in saying that there was not an Urban Services Department pre-war but a Sanitary Department? CHAIRMAN:-I believe you are correct, Sir. MR. BERNACCHI:-When I said that the old Section 55 was similar in terms to the old Section 7 of the Urban Council Ordinance (of course, read "Sanitary Department" for "Urban Services Department"); then am I right in saying that this Council was responsible for drafting the whole of the Urban Services Ordinance? CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I must ask again if I may look into the matter. MR. BERNACCHI:-If I am right in that remark, would you agree that it seems that the Urban Services Department was the baby of the Urban Council? CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I would like to make a personal observation on this point. I am always conscious of being the servant of this Council, but I do not see that that precludes the Department from exercising functions outside the control of the Urban Council. MR. BERNACCHI:-Two last questions. Is the Chairman aware that the Heung Yee Kuk has asked for a representative on this Council? CHAIRMAN:-So I have been told. MR. BERNACCHI:-Finally, would you agree, Sir, that this arose from a natural confusion of this Council with the Urban Services Department of Government? Page 116 of 194

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of 194 Page 115 of 194 212 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL CHAIRMAN:-Sir, the answer is "Yes". I refer specifically, Sir, to Section 55 as amended in 1960. MR. BERNACCHI:-The question was the amendment and/or the Objects and Reasons. CHAIRMAN: Sir, I am not certain about the Objects and Reasons, but I would like, if I may, to refer to Section 55. This section was amended in 1960, and as far as I can ascertain, before the amendment was made it was referred to the Urban Council under cover of Com- mittee Paper CW 55/59 which was issued in accordance with a memorandum from the Colonial Secretary. The amendment was agreed by the Urban Council at its meeting on 6th October, 1959. Another Paper CW 61/59 was subsequently issued on the relationship between the Urban Council and the Urban Services Department. You, Sir, then asked for this particular paper to be discussed, but it was never done because, as I understand it, you finally proposed, and it was agreed, that the discussion should be adjourned sine die. This was recorded in paragraph 1 of Committee Minutes CW 10/59 of 5th January, 1960. On the subject of the Objects and Reasons, Sir, I will have to give you a reply later. MR. BERNACCHI:-Thank you, Sir. Although I vaguely remember that the amendment to Section 55 was so referred I have no recollection of the Objects and Reasons being referred at all. Now, the second supplementary is, of course, a legal one. Does the Chairman know that the Objects and Reasons cannot be taken into consideration in interpreting an enactment? CHAIRMAN:-I am grateful to you, Sir, for your observation. (Laughter). MR. BERNACCHI:-Might I express my opinion: it was indeed a very nice answer to give. The third supplementary is, again, I am afraid, going on the law: Does the Chairman appreciate that the word "includes" is sometimes interpreted as meaning "be" or "means"? In this case, of course, the appropriate word would be "be"-"shall be the doing of . . " CHAIRMAN: --Sir, I can only say that I must bow to your knowledge on this subject. But I can assure you that I have sought the advice of the Legal Department of the Hong Kong Government and there seems to be no doubt in the minds of the experts there that Section 55 means what I think it means. (Laughter). MR. BERNACCHI :-Am I right in saying that the old Section 55 was the old Section 7 in the pre-war Urban Council Ordinance? CHAIRMAN: ---Sir, I must confess that I do not know. May I look into the matter later? HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 213 MR. BERNACCHI:-Assuming for a moment that I am right (Laughter), can we be told who supplied the information to the Legislative Council that pre-war it was never the intention that the section should be restrictive of the functions of that Department? CHAIRMAN:-Sir, may I look into the matter later? MR. BERNACCHI:-In the concluding remarks to the answer to my question (c), does the Chairman say that this is fair to this Council? That is to say, that this Council advises on beaches in the New Territories although apparently it has not any jurisdiction over it. CHAIRMAN:-Section (c) of the reply is factual. I can only say, Sir, that I regard it as extremely courteous of the Urban Amenities Select Committee to give us its advice, which we seek only occasion- ally as far as I know. MR. BERNACCHI:-Is there any connexion between the words “Urban Council" and the words "Urban Services Department"? CHAIRMAN:-Yes, Sir, as outlined in my reply. MR. BERNACCHI :-Would I be right in saying that there was not an Urban Services Department pre-war but a Sanitary Department? CHAIRMAN:-I believe you are correct, Sir. MR. BERNACCHI:-When I said that the old Section 55 was similar in terms to the old Section 7 of the Urban Council Ordinance (of course, read "Sanitary Department" for "Urban Services Department"); then am I right in saying that this Council was responsible for drafting the whole of the Urban Services Ordinance? CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I must ask again if I may look into the matter. MR. BERNACCHI:-If I am right in that remark, would you agree that it seems that the Urban Services Department was the baby of the Urban Council? CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I would like to make a personal observation on this point. I am always conscious of being the servant of this Council, but I do not see that that precludes the Department from exercising functions outside the control of the Urban Council. MR. BERNACCHI:-Two last questions. Is the Chairman aware that the Heung Yee Kuk has asked for a representative on this Council? CHAIRMAN:-So I have been told. MR. BERNACCHI:-Finally, would you agree, Sir, that this arose from a natural confusion of this Council with the Urban Services Department of Government? Page 115Page 116 of 194

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Page 115 of 194

212

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

CHAIRMAN:-Sir, the answer is "Yes". I refer specifically, Sir, to Section 55 as amended in 1960.

MR. BERNACCHI:-The question was the amendment and/or the Objects and Reasons.

CHAIRMAN: Sir, I am not certain about the Objects and Reasons, but I would like, if I may, to refer to Section 55. This section was amended in 1960, and as far as I can ascertain, before the amendment was made it was referred to the Urban Council under cover of Com- mittee Paper CW 55/59 which was issued in accordance with a memorandum from the Colonial Secretary. The amendment was agreed by the Urban Council at its meeting on 6th October, 1959. Another Paper CW 61/59 was subsequently issued on the relationship between the Urban Council and the Urban Services Department. You, Sir, then asked for this particular paper to be discussed, but it was never done because, as I understand it, you finally proposed, and it was agreed, that the discussion should be adjourned sine die. This was recorded in paragraph 1 of Committee Minutes CW 10/59 of 5th January, 1960. On the subject of the Objects and Reasons, Sir, I will have to give you a reply later.

CHAIRMAN:-I am grateful to you, Sir, for your observation.

(Laughter).

MR. BERNACCHI :-Am I right in saying that the old Section 55 was the old Section 7 in the pre-war Urban Council Ordinance?

CHAIRMAN: ---Sir, I must confess that I do not know. May I look into the matter later?

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

213

CHAIRMAN:-Sir, may I look into the matter later?

MR. BERNACCHI:-Is there any connexion between the words “Urban Council" and the words "Urban Services Department"?

CHAIRMAN:-Yes, Sir, as outlined in my reply.

MR. BERNACCHI :-Would I be right in saying that there was not an Urban Services Department pre-war but a Sanitary Department?

CHAIRMAN:-I believe you are correct, Sir.

CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I must ask again if I may look into the matter.

MR. BERNACCHI:-If I am right in that remark, would you agree that it seems that the Urban Services Department was the baby of the Urban Council?

MR. BERNACCHI:-Two last questions. Is the Chairman aware that the Heung Yee Kuk has asked for a representative on this Council?

CHAIRMAN:-So I have been told.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Finally, would you agree, Sir, that this arose from a natural confusion of this Council with the Urban Services Department of Government?

1963 — Page 115

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