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MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I am not responsible if some of my colleagues are ignorant of Committee procedure. I am prepared to abide by the ruling of the chair, as I must naturally, Mr. Chairman. If you accept that motion as amended by me, then I suggest that you put it to this Council as an amendment. The Council can defeat the amendment. Then we will consider the motion as it was put forward originally. So I suggest that you put the amendment. If Members do not agree with the amendment they defeat the amendment. If they agree with the amendment then you proceed accordingly. So they have every opportunity to defeat this amendment, and then of course the motion as proposed originally would be subject to the incidental and supplementary motions provided for by Standing Orders.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -May I ask a question in clarification, through you, Mr. Chairman, of Mr. SALES? Is one of the reasons for his amendment the fact that he is not in favour of the second part of the motion as proposed?
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I thought I spoke very clearly. I am just suggesting a way which would suit all opinions, which would in fact be helpful to the motion, and we would achieve the purpose of this motion without riding rough-shod over the feelings of any of our own Members.
CHAIRMAN: -The intention is, as I understand it, Sir, to take the amendment to the motion first, and then to take the two parts of the amended motion separately afterwards.
DR. LEE: -I don't think you can do that, Mr. Chairman, under Standing Orders.
CHAIRMAN: I agree that it is not clear under Standing Orders, but possibly it is in accordance with practice.
DR. LEE: -But surely, Mr. Chairman, when we meet in this Council we stand by Standing Orders of this Council, not Standing Orders of other Councils.
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, Standing Order 10(17)(a) allows for an amendment to a motion. How that motion is amended is stated on the previous page under section (14)--"an amendment shall be either: (a) to leave out words," which I have suggested.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. No. where in Standing Orders is it stated that once an amendment has been made the motion, as amended, can be voted on in two parts.
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, since Mr. CHEONG-LEEN pleads ignorance of Standing Orders, and not to delay further, I would like to withdraw my amendment and move that under Standing Order 10, paragraph (17), section (i)—the subject of debate be referred to or back to the Committee concerned.
MR. WATSON: -Mr. Chairman, I would like to second that motion.
MR. MARDEN: -Mr. Chairman, I would like to move that the question be put.
DR. LEE: -But surely, Mr. Chairman, other Members have the right of speaking on the amendment?
CHAIRMAN: -You, Sir, have the right, certainly.
DR. LEE: Mr. Chairman, when this motion was first drafted by Mr. BERNACCHI, the motion in its form was not the same as it stands at the present moment. Unofficials as well as some of the Appointed Unofficials. The present amended form is a compromise of that discussion, and I am not letting official secrets out when I say that our friends, the Appointed Members, make various amendments which do not alter the sense of a motion. I can hardly be expected to sit in my chair without raising my voice, because, as I say, I speak on behalf of Mr. BERNACCHI. I have been in this Council for 10 years and I know how it functions. Inevitably, when an Elected Member moves a motion, our Appointed friends always have a little amendment to make to prove to the public that not only the Elected Members have the initiative, but that the Appointed side is also "on the ball." Now I deprecate this very strongly because in Committee we move as a Council, not as individuals, and if this motion is of benefit to the public I would ask you to support it because from the depth of our hearts we know that a lot of hardship has been created by the presence of this unamended 1954 Policy of the Resettlement Ordinance, and I know there are cases where children have been driven away from their hut, which was formerly a pigsty, screaming in the rain, by the staff of the Resettlement Department, and they come to our Club for assistance. There are other cases of people who have paid money for pigsties converted for domestic accommodation, lived there unnoticed for 2 years, and now have to be driven out. I think that is a disgrace and I feel very strongly on this subject.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, under Standing Orders may I request a ruling on whether or not the person who has withdrawn his motion and moved an amended motion has obtained the agreement of the seconder of the motion, and whether the seconder of the motion is entitled to move that the question be put?
CHAIRMAN: -In my opinion, Sir, Mr. SALES is in order in moving that the subject of the debate be referred back to the Committee. I think it was unnecessary for Mr. MARDEN to move that the question be now put,
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MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I am not responsible if some of my colleagues are ignorant of Committee procedure. I am prepared to abide by the ruling of the chair, as I must naturally, Mr. Chairman. If you accept that motion as amended by me, then I suggest that you put it to this Council as an amendment. The Council can defeat the amendment. Then we will consider the motion as it was put forward originally. So I suggest that you put the amendment. If Members do not agree with the amendment they defeat the amendment. If they agree with the amendment then you proceed accordingly. So they have every opportunity to defeat this amendment, and then of course the motion as proposed originally would be subject to the incidental and supplementary motions provided for by Standing Orders.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -May I ask a question in clarification, through you, Mr. Chairman, of Mr. SALES? Is one of the reasons for his amendment the fact that he is not in favour of the second part of the motion as proposed?
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I thought I spoke very clearly. I am just suggesting a way which would suit all opinions, which would in fact be helpful to the motion, and we would achieve the purpose of this motion without riding rough-shod over the feelings of any of our own Members.
CHAIRMAN:-The intention is, as I understand it, Sir, to take the amendment to the motion first, and then to take the two parts of the amended motion separately afterwards.
DR. LEE:-I don't think you can do that, Mr. Chairman, under Standing Orders.
CHAIRMAN: I agree that it is not clear under Standing Orders, but possibly it is in accordance with practice.
DR. LEE:-But surely, Mr. Chairman, when we meet in this Council we stand by Standing Orders of this Council, not Standing Orders of other Councils.
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, Standing Order 10(17)(a) allows for an amendment to a motion. How that motion is amended is stated on the previous page under section (14)--"an amendment shall be either: (a) to leave out words," which I have suggested.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. No. where in Standing Orders is it stated that once an amendment has been made the motion, as amended, can be voted on in two parts.
MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, since Mr. CHEONG-LEEN pleads ignorance of Standing Orders, and not to delay further, I would like
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to withdraw my amendment and move that under Standing Order 10, paragraph (17), section (i)—the subject of debate be referred to or back
to the Committee concerned.
MR. WATSON: -Mr. Chairman, I would like to second that motion.
MR. MARDEN: --Mr. Chairman, I would like to move that the
question be put.
DR. LEE:-But surely, Mr. Chairman, other Members have the right of speaking on the amendment?
CHAIRMAN: -You, Sir, have the right, certainly.
DR. LEE: Mr. Chairman, when this motion was first drafted by Mr. BERNACCHI, the motion in its form was not the same as it stands It has been discussed among our Elected
at the present moment. Unofficials as well as some of the Appointed Unofficials. The present amended form is a compromise of that discussion, and I am not letting official secrets out when I say that our friends, the Appointed Members, make various amendments which do not alter the sense of a motion. I can hardly be expected to sit in my chair without raising my voice, because, as I say, I speak on behalf of Mr. BERNACCHI. I have been in this Council for 10 years and I know how it functions. Inevitably, when an Elected Member moves a motion, our Appointed friends always have a little amendment to make to prove to the public that not only the Elected Members have the initiative, but that the Appointed side is also "on the ball." Now I deprecate this very strongly because in Committee we move as a Council, not as individuals, and if this motion is of benefit to the public I would ask you to support it because from the depth of our hearts we know that a lot of hardship has been created by the presence of this unamended 1954 Policy of the Resettle- ment Ordinance, and I know there are cases where children have been driven away from their hut, which was formerly a pigsty, screaming in the rain, by the staff of the Resettlement Department, and they come to our Club for assistance. There are other cases of people who have paid money for pigsties converted for domestic accommodation, lived there unnoticed for 2 years, and now have to be driven out. I think that is a disgrace and I feel very strongly on this subject.
MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, under Standing Orders may I request a ruling on whether or not the person who has withdrawn his motion and moved an amended motion has obtained the agreement of the seconder of the motion, and whether the seconder of the motion is entitled to move that the question be put?
CHAIRMAN:-In my opinion, Sir, Mr. SALES is in order in moving that the subject of the debate be referred back to the Committee. I think it was unnecessary for Mr. MARDEN to move that the question be now put,
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