1960 — Page 54

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

Page 54 of 118

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

MR. BERNACCHI :- In dealing with my fourth, fifth and sixth questions, I note that the Commissioner of Police is objecting to double banking but not to single banking of vehicles, will that fact be clearly conveyed to the stallholders.

CHAIRMAN: ---- They are not actually their vehicles. The vehicles in fact belong to the distributors. They will certainly be informed to this effect. They already have been informed as far as I know.

MR. BERNACCHI :- Thank you. Now you have referred in a number of your questions to complaints received from the stallholders. I think I remember rightly that you mentioned a total of three altogether, or two in writing and one as a result of an interview with yourself. Now have those complaints as yet been referred to the Markets Select Committee?

CHAIRMAN :- I am afraid I cannot answer that question, Mr. BERNACCHI. I am not on the Markets Select Committee, but I will make inquiries to that effect. If they have not yet been referred, I will refer them to the next meeting.

MR. BERNACCHI :- One final question, Mr. Chairman. Your answer to my eighth question when you say "if you think otherwise, this matter could be discussed at the next Hawkers Select Committee meeting", should that not read Markets Select Committee?

CHAIRMAN :- I plead guilty.

(At this point, Mr. Y. K. KAN, with the permission of the Chairman, left the meeting).

MR. SALES: - Mr. Chairman, I refer to paragraph 7, third sentence. Were the names of the parties, which made for a loss on the part of the stallholders, disclosed to you at all? Were the names of the solicitor and the barrister in question disclosed to you? (Laughter).

CHAIRMAN :- Standing Order 8(10) reads: a question shall not include statements or the names of persons not strictly necessary to render the question intelligible.

MR. SALES: I commend you on your knowledge of Standing Orders, Mr. Chairman. I am not infringing any Standing Order by asking that supplementary.

MR. BERNACCHI :- I might add that I have asked for this very point to be referred to the appropriate Select Committee, in that in my original question I named the constable concerned.

MR. SALES: In clarification, I would like to pick up the gauntlet as far as the Chairman is concerned. The Standing Order to which he referred does not apply to my supplementary. If he does not accept the ruling, I would like the matter to be referred to the appropriate Select Committee. I will be delighted to leave the matter here, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- Mr. Chairman, with Mr. BERNACCHI'S permission, may I just ask two supplementaries. Why was not this particular case referred to the appropriate Select Committee?

CHAIRMAN :- I have already answered to that effect, Mr. CHEONG-LEEN. It may well have been referred to the Select Committee, but I am not certain. It will in any case be referred to the next meeting of the Markets Select Committee.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- The other question, Mr. Chairman, is: in examining the background of this case, are you satisfied that as regards the particular constable concerned there was no question of graft or corruption?

CHAIRMAN :- I am perfectly satisfied, Mr. Cheong-LEEN.

MR. SALES :- Are you not out of order in answering that supplementary, Mr. Chairman. That is an expression of opinion.

MR. BERNACCHI :- Indeed, Mr. Chairman. I feel that I must ask a supplementary to the extent that have you had all the facts placed before you to express that opinion as you have expressed it? Have you, for instance, Mr. Chairman, examined the evidence about certain demands by the constable to the stallholders?

CHAIRMAN :- I know of no such evidence.

MR. BERNACCHI :- I might suggest that you have not examined all the evidence, Sir.

MR. A. DE O. SALES asked the following question :

"(a) Is the Chairman aware that the HK$1 million block vote to cover the whole range of projects described loosely as urban amenities works out to a monthly rate of about 2 cents per head of population? Also, that this block vote represents about 1 per mille of the total estimated expenditure of the Colony for 1960-61?

(b) How will the Chairman carry out the long list of projects which this Council has approved when an attempt is being made to pare down even this niggard vote by $200,000?

(c) Has the Chairman made adequate representations to Government that Council considers many of these long-overdue projects as minimum requirements?”

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

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Page 54 of 118 92 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. BERNACCHI :- In dealing with my fourth, fifth and sixth questions, I note that the Commissioner of Police is objecting to double banking but not to single banking of vehicles, will that fact be clearly conveyed to the stallholders. CHAIRMAN: ---- They are not actually their vehicles. The vehicles in fact belong to the distributors. They will certainly be informed to this effect. They already have been informed as far as I know. MR. BERNACCHI :- Thank you. Now you have referred in a number of your questions to complaints received from the stallholders. I think I remember rightly that you mentioned a total of three altogether, or two in writing and one as a result of an interview with yourself. Now have those complaints as yet been referred to the Markets Select Committee? CHAIRMAN :- I am afraid I cannot answer that question, Mr. BERNACCHI. I am not on the Markets Select Committee, but I will make inquiries to that effect. If they have not yet been referred, I will refer them to the next meeting. MR. BERNACCHI :- One final question, Mr. Chairman. Your answer to my eighth question when you say "if you think otherwise, this matter could be discussed at the next Hawkers Select Committee meeting", should that not read Markets Select Committee? CHAIRMAN :- I plead guilty. (At this point, Mr. Y. K. KAN, with the permission of the Chairman, left the meeting). MR. SALES: - Mr. Chairman, I refer to paragraph 7, third sentence. Were the names of the parties, which made for a loss on the part of the stallholders, disclosed to you at all? Were the names of the solicitor and the barrister in question disclosed to you? (Laughter). CHAIRMAN :- Standing Order 8(10) reads: a question shall not include statements or the names of persons not strictly necessary to render the question intelligible. MR. SALES: I commend you on your knowledge of Standing Orders, Mr. Chairman. I am not infringing any Standing Order by asking that supplementary. MR. BERNACCHI :- I might add that I have asked for this very point to be referred to the appropriate Select Committee, in that in my original question I named the constable concerned. MR. SALES: In clarification, I would like to pick up the gauntlet as far as the Chairman is concerned. The Standing Order to which he referred does not apply to my supplementary. If he does not accept the ruling, I would like the matter to be referred to the appropriate Select Committee. I will be delighted to leave the matter here, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- Mr. Chairman, with Mr. BERNACCHI'S permission, may I just ask two supplementaries. Why was not this particular case referred to the appropriate Select Committee? CHAIRMAN :- I have already answered to that effect, Mr. CHEONG-LEEN. It may well have been referred to the Select Committee, but I am not certain. It will in any case be referred to the next meeting of the Markets Select Committee. MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- The other question, Mr. Chairman, is: in examining the background of this case, are you satisfied that as regards the particular constable concerned there was no question of graft or corruption? CHAIRMAN :- I am perfectly satisfied, Mr. Cheong-LEEN. MR. SALES :- Are you not out of order in answering that supplementary, Mr. Chairman. That is an expression of opinion. MR. BERNACCHI :- Indeed, Mr. Chairman. I feel that I must ask a supplementary to the extent that have you had all the facts placed before you to express that opinion as you have expressed it? Have you, for instance, Mr. Chairman, examined the evidence about certain demands by the constable to the stallholders? CHAIRMAN :- I know of no such evidence. MR. BERNACCHI :- I might suggest that you have not examined all the evidence, Sir. MR. A. DE O. SALES asked the following question : "(a) Is the Chairman aware that the HK$1 million block vote to cover the whole range of projects described loosely as urban amenities works out to a monthly rate of about 2 cents per head of population? Also, that this block vote represents about 1 per mille of the total estimated expenditure of the Colony for 1960-61? (b) How will the Chairman carry out the long list of projects which this Council has approved when an attempt is being made to pare down even this niggard vote by $200,000? (c) Has the Chairman made adequate representations to Government that Council considers many of these long-overdue projects as minimum requirements?” 11 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 93 Page 55 of 118

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Page 54 of 118 92 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. BERNACCHI :-In dealing with my fourth, fifth and sixth questions, I note that the Commissioner of Police is objecting to double banking but not to single banking of vehicles, will that fact be clearly conveyed to the stallholders. CHAIRMAN: ----They are not actually their vehicles. The vehicles in fact belong to the distributors. They will certainly be informed to this effect. They already have been informed as far as I know. MR. BERNACCHI:-Thank you. Now you have referred in a number of your questions to complaints received from the stallholders. I think I remember rightly that you mentioned a total of three altogether, or two in writing and one as a result of an interview with yourself. Now have those complaints as yet been referred to the Markets Select Committee? CHAIRMAN:-I am afraid I cannot answer that question, Mr. BERNACCHI. I am not on the Markets Select Committee, but I will make inquiries to that effect. If they have not yet been referred, I will refer them to the next meeting. MR. BERNACCHI :-One final question, Mr. Chairman. Your answer to my eighth question when you say "if you think otherwise, this matter could be discussed at the next Hawkers Select Committee meeting", should that not read Markets Select Committee? CHAIRMAN:-I plead guilty. (At this point, Mr. Y. K. KAN, with the permission of the Chairman, left the meeting). MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I refer to paragraph 7, third sentence. Were the names of the parties, which made for a loss on the part of the stallholders, disclosed to you at all? Were the names of the solicitor and the barrister in question disclosed to you? (Laughter). CHAIRMAN:-Standing Order 8(10) reads: a question shall not include statements or the names of persons not strictly necessary to render the question intelligible. MR. SALES: I commend you on your knowledge of Standing Orders, Mr. Chairman. I am not infringing any Standing Order by asking that supplementary. MR. BERNACCHI:-I might add that I have asked for this very point to be referred to the appropriate Select Committee, in that in my original question I named the constable concerned. MR. SALES: In clarification, I would like to pick up the gauntlet as far as the Chairman is concerned. The Standing Order to which he referred does not apply to my supplementary. If he does not accept 11 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 93 the ruling, I would like the matter to be referred to the appropriate Select Committee. I will be delighted to leave the matter here, Mr. Chairman. MR. BERNACCHI'S CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, with Mr. permission, may I just ask two supplementaries. Why was not this particular case referred to the appropriate Select Committee? CHAIRMAN: -I have already answered to that effect, Mr. CHEONG- LEEN. It may well have been referred to the Select Committee, but I am not certain. It will in any case be referred to the next meeting of the Markets Select Committee. MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-The other question, Mr. Chairman, is: in examining the background of this case, are you satisfied that as regards the particular constable concerned there was no question of graft or corruption? CHAIRMAN: --I am perfectly satisfied, Mr. Cheong-LEEN. MR. SALES-Are you not out of order in answering that supple- mentary, Mr. Chairman. That is an expression of opinion. MR. BERNACCHI :-Indeed, Mr. Chairman. I feel that I must ask a supplementary to the extent that have you had all the facts placed before you to express that opinion as you have expressed it? Have you, for instance, Mr. Chairman, examined the evidence about certain demands by the constable to the stallholders? CHAIRMAN: -I know of no such evidence. MR. BERNACCHI:-I might suggest that you have not examined all the evidence, Sir. MR. A. DE O. SALES asked the following question :· "(a) Is the Chairman aware that the HK$1 million block vote to cover the whole range of projects described loosely as urban amenities works out to a monthly rate of about 2 cents per head of population? Also, that this block vote represents about 1 per mille of the total estimated expenditure of the Colony for 1960-61? (b) How will the Chairman carry out the long list of projects which this Council has approved when an attempt is being made to pare down even this niggard vote by $200,000? (c) Has the Chairman made adequate representations to Government that Council considers many of these long- overdue projects as minimum requirements?”

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Page 54 of 118

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

MR. BERNACCHI :-In dealing with my fourth, fifth and sixth questions, I note that the Commissioner of Police is objecting to double banking but not to single banking of vehicles, will that fact be clearly conveyed to the stallholders.

CHAIRMAN: ----They are not actually their vehicles. The vehicles in fact belong to the distributors. They will certainly be informed to this effect. They already have been informed as far as I know.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Thank you. Now you have referred in a number of your questions to complaints received from the stallholders. I think I remember rightly that you mentioned a total of three altogether, or two in writing and one as a result of an interview with yourself. Now have those complaints as yet been referred to the Markets Select Committee?

CHAIRMAN:-I am afraid I cannot answer that question, Mr. BERNACCHI. I am not on the Markets Select Committee, but I will make inquiries to that effect. If they have not yet been referred, I will refer them to the next meeting.

MR. BERNACCHI :-One final question, Mr. Chairman. Your answer to my eighth question when you say "if you think otherwise, this matter could be discussed at the next Hawkers Select Committee meeting", should that not read Markets Select Committee?

CHAIRMAN:-I plead guilty.

(At this point, Mr. Y. K. KAN, with the permission of the Chairman, left the meeting).

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I refer to paragraph 7, third sentence. Were the names of the parties, which made for a loss on the part of the stallholders, disclosed to you at all? Were the names of the solicitor and the barrister in question disclosed to you? (Laughter).

CHAIRMAN:-Standing Order 8(10) reads: a question shall not include statements or the names of persons not strictly necessary to render the question intelligible.

MR. SALES: I commend you on your knowledge of Standing Orders, Mr. Chairman. I am not infringing any Standing Order by asking that supplementary.

MR. BERNACCHI:-I might add that I have asked for this very point to be referred to the appropriate Select Committee, in that in my original question I named the constable concerned.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

the ruling, I would like the matter to be referred to the appropriate Select Committee. I will be delighted to leave the matter here, Mr. Chairman.

MR.

BERNACCHI'S

CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, with Mr. permission, may I just ask two supplementaries. Why was not this particular case referred to the appropriate Select Committee?

CHAIRMAN: -I have already answered to that effect, Mr. CHEONG- LEEN. It may well have been referred to the Select Committee, but I am not certain. It will in any case be referred to the next meeting of the Markets Select Committee.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-The other question, Mr. Chairman, is: in examining the background of this case, are you satisfied that as regards the particular constable concerned there was no question of graft or corruption?

CHAIRMAN: --I am perfectly satisfied, Mr. Cheong-LEEN.

MR. SALES-Are you not out of order in answering that supple- mentary, Mr. Chairman. That is an expression of opinion.

MR. BERNACCHI :-Indeed, Mr. Chairman. I feel that I must ask

a supplementary to the extent that have you had all the facts placed before you to express that opinion as you have expressed it? Have you, for instance, Mr. Chairman, examined the evidence about certain demands by the constable to the stallholders?

CHAIRMAN: -I know of no such evidence.

MR. BERNACCHI:-I might suggest that you have not examined all the evidence, Sir.

MR. A. DE O. SALES asked the following question :·

(b) How will the Chairman carry out the long list of projects which this Council has approved when an attempt is being made to pare down even this niggard vote by $200,000?

(c) Has the Chairman made adequate representations to Government that Council considers many of these long- overdue projects as minimum requirements?”

1960 — Page 54

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