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and neither heaven nor earth will move it. A conclusion is come to and nothing "will change it. In ather words we are in the hands of the experts in an inquiry and quantity of pen pressure is very great?--I don't go as far na that. Quality and quantity vary in the same individual?-Yes.
The position of the pen pressure might also vary? Yes.
(Continued from Page 1.) could, produco a combination of the three points-the position of the "B," the slope of the "T" the on downstroke And the top of the "T"-This is specula- tive. Writing is to some extent dependent on posture, the height of the table ete. Factors this may have entered in. I have no knowledge of these and, there-the pen might vary 7-Yes. fora, it is speculative.
↑
The amount of ink running into Hike a groove might vary ?--YOR.
Can you suggest any rational trick theory which will produce combination of these three points-It is not a question of a trick. A man might write these things. The number of factors ontering into writing la so great that if there was a trick it is only one factor. I don't know whether there are other factors. Mr. Jenkin suggested that there In the might have been a trick signing of these cheques and think it is a fair question. Can you suggest any trick to produce these three points 7-No.
Scientific Hypotheals. Forget you are an expert for a moment. You are a scientific man examining a problem. You are trying to find an explanation for a certain set of facts. Would you not prefer a hypothesis which covers all the facts?-Yes.
Sir Henry Gollan: It is not an hypothesis, otherwise. Mr. Poller: Exactly.
In
па
Mr. Potter (to witness): want an hypothesis to give the solution. 'put it to
the a selenlife man that hypothesis preferable is which covers all the facts?-
You you you
one
The width between the points of So it is not a case of having a fixed constant factur. There are
all kinds of variations?-Yes.
If I tried to write signatures freehand you would expect to find variations?--Yes.
Pen Pressure.
Witness contended that it was impossible for the expert forger to get the exact pen pressure of a signature.
YESTERDAY AFTERNOON'S
PROCEEDINGS.
May 1 put it th rudeness is intend has been of conald At the outset of the cross-ex-
to you throughout amination yesterday, Professor Yeo case in the w Shellsbear agreed with Mr. | minttora affecting cho Potter that he (witness) was before you, familiar with the points they would evidence taken in this be dealing with as they had dis- Yes. cussed them at some length in the
Yeo case.
Retained by Bank. Mr. Potter:-Can you tell me when you were retained by the bank in this matter?-I am not certain of the date but I think it was January 18 or 19. Witnces con-
tinued it was not a written ro-
and
g
Did you consult anybody else be fore deciding to claim the qualis. cations of an expert7-1 took it on iny own responsibility,
But except for Mr. Jenkin, you consulted no one else whether to claim to be an expert or not?—I- don't remember.
How came you to take up hand- writing at all?--I took it up about
Witness's Hobby.
tainer but he thought it was by means of a telephone communica-five years ago. tion. He thought the retainer came from Mr. Lowia but he was not sure. It was a long while ago and he had not made a note of it.
Asked whether he could fix the that he could not swear to the date date more accurately, witness said as he had no record of it.
How was it you took it upt-1 was asked if I would look 'nt a chequo with handwriting to express an opinion.
:
Who asked you to do that?-Mr. Jenkin.
And that was the start of your as an export-In actual Mr. Potter: If you are going
Mr. Potter pointed out the point carcer
but not the to make a broad stroke, you must
you was important because the. sugges-handwrting yes, press your pen; otherwise don't get a similarity?You are Lion had been made that the bank neurology side as that is part of
had no idea that the authenticity my profcasion,
Did he advise it might be a good taking out one point.
Do you think it is possible to of the three disputed cheques was get the same pen pressure?-A challenged on January 18. Al thing if you took up the study of man might fluke it once. He though he (Mr. Potter) did not at- handwriting? No, it was interest- would not know what pressure wastach much importance to the mating to us at that time. there!
ter himself, a good deal of capital Mr. Potter:-Do you suggest had been made out of it by the that the man we heard of yester. other side, and therefore he want day who forged a cheque fored the dato fixed if possible. £60,000 does not know as much about writing as you do?
Sir Henry Gollan said the line of investigation open to witness would be equally open to the forger.
Mr. Potter:-I suggest there is no earthly reason why he should not get the same pen pressure.
New York, Apr. 12. Prohibition organisations tend to seek legislation from Con- gress prohibiting the sale of liquor an American ing vessels. Certainly." They urge that the Supremo The hypothesis of the defence-Suppose I act out to forge some Court decision, under which the is that the writing in the body of company decided to permit liquor the cheques is that of Taang On- sales, permits of such action by wing and genuine and that there- fore he was a party to the swindle. Congress..
That is clear-Yes,
The "Drya" contend that "the
And that the signaturas of Mr. success of the operation of the ships without beverage liquor Messer and Mr. Black are genuine aboard would prove that the and that they have been obtained eer by a trick. That is the hypothesis popularity of the passenger vice does not depend on the which the defence puts forward and asks the jury to accept?--- javailability of intoxicants."
Yes.
The "Wets" state that this is Upon the three disputed cheques the rankent hypocrisy, and allege you find the three points I have put that the crew of the Leviathan and to you, which I may take it can't other American vessels always be found in genuine cheques. have sold liquor surreptitiously. There are the three admitted
Meanwhile Americans are being given the opportunity of having a financial, stake in the dispute, through a public offering of shares
facts. You accept them?—Yes.
Three Facts.
Chief Justice's Query. Sir Henry Golan (to witness): thing. I made up my mind as to the characteristics of the writing. Why should I not approximate very closely to the genuine ga result of practice? She'd 1 not get the pressure very near? Professor Shellshear:
No Traps.. Witness replied that he could not remember more definitely, whereat Mr.
Did you take it up as a hobby or with the object of making it n part of your professional career?
In the first instance I took it up for its interest.
I think I am right in saying that in your career, while you have given evidence in other matters in Potter assured Professor these Courts on forged chops etc., no in you have not given evidence at the Shellshear that there was tention of trapping him, but he request of any counsel except Mr. could correct the dates later if Jenkin 7-1 think you were in a
He was not going to case with me. necessary. suggest that witness was not say- Ing what was correct. "At the moment you think it was the 18th. or 10th, of January?"Yes."
And it is obvious you were told what you were retained for?--Yes, on behalf of the bank on account of these forged cheques,
Some indication is always given when anybody is retained, other- wise one would not know what one You was retained for?-Ye
might get it very hear.
Asked the same question again, witness replied that he doubled it. Mr. Poller asked witness to look at the endorsements on the backs
of the three disputed cheques and asked whether he thought it was possible for a man to go into three different banks and open accounts, without considerable preparation, and on the following day use the same three signatures for drawing cheques.
Witness replied that it was merely a matter of a man changing his hand.
Mr. Potter said he would hate to
Do you think the defence in the United States Lines Incor-hypothesis tun conceivably cover Can their offers those three facts" porated. The company American citizens an only chance hypothesis by any stretching be
not his own and go on the follow- to subscribe to 600,000 Preference made to cover the three facts open an account one day in a name ing day and emulate the samo shares at 17% dollars, entitled Am I cailed upon to give
asked witness writing. He to cumulative dividends of one answer?
Sir Henry Gollan:-You can say dollar annually from January 1,
not in
a position to whether this could be done with you are
out preparation. 1930.
answer.
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replied
Therefore want to get from you what was communicated to you. It was with regard to the three disputed cheques?-Yea,
I was in a case with Mr. Jenkin when you were not called when I had not the advantage of seeing was quite you, Your 'evidence properly withdrawn by you and Mr. Jenkin. Mr. Jenkin is the. only counsel with whom you have
been associated in these matters?
Yes.
In how many cases have you actually investigated alleged forged writings?-Four or five. And that is all 7-Yes. Including this case?-Yox.
Detecting Forgery.
1
1 gather from your evidence, cor- You cannot remember whether,
can detect Mr. Lewis said there was a pos-rect me if I am wrong, that, grant-
any forgery?--You could detect. sibility of forgery or not?--No, ed sufficient data of genuine and
cannot remember, but it was disputed writing, you There would be no object in the any forgery.
That the detection of forgery. about the three cheques,
the bank seeking to enlist your aid un-
provided some question of forgery has been brought to an exact less either had risen or might arisal science? Yes,
Is It only in recent years that. I suppose that must be the case.material is sufficient.
Can you concelve of any other.
the detection of forgery has, been reason?-No.
reduced to this exact science or has
You have told us in your evidence ap- Mr. Jenkin, that you were here, and it has been opened by proached by Mr. King to act on behalf of the Government?--Yes,
You do not suppose that you were approached by Mr. King be- cause he regarded you as an expert
think it is not so very recent paratus and things like that.
been done for years before Since the use of scientific ap
We have had the microscope for
And the microscope has been a
many years? Yes.
factor in the examination of hand- writing for many years-Yo.
There is nothing novel about the
It has gone on for generations, has it not?--I couldn't eny that,
Well, how long have we had the microscope?--I am not sure of the You will agree with me that they date when it was discovered, are old methods of detection of handwriting, the microscope and considerable period of years. pen pressure? Yes, for a very
Professor Shellshear
in handwriting 7- Mr. Potter (to witness) :-Try
Witness hesitated, and in reply to forget you are an expert, and that he did not any without some that I am a counsel. Let us talk preparation.
Mr. Potter: What preparation? to other questions, he agreed that
he had never claimed to be an ex-microscope or pen prossure?—No. man to man. Can you suggest any conceivable reason
cases in the why, if-Practising writing.
Questioned as to the possibility pert in handwriting, and he had Teang is in this swindle, those three should be three cheques of a man making another signa-disclaimed such in
Pointing out he wished to get rid stolen from the Treasury? I have ture, his own by practice, witness court been asking for an answer to this said that a man could not make of the suggestion that the Govern- since the last case. If Tsang is Mr. Black's signature his own ment wanted to obtain witness's in the swindle why, In the name of because it would not be his own assistance as a handwriting expert, goodness, were Gu cheques stolen? signature. He did not agree that Mr. Fotter repeated his unanswer could easily make, Mr. cd question, when witness replied Can you suggest an answer?-No.
Mr. Potter: can't give an Black's signature his own as Car-"I understood that it was."
Although you had always ex- answer. To use a phrase of my valho Yeo made three signatures friend who said something was his own in opening the three bank-pressly disclaimed that qualifica- tion? He wanted advice on this screaming for an answer. This Ing accounts.
handwriting. is also screaming for an answer.
Sir Henry Gollan:-Is not an answer that some cheques might he spoiled?
Mr. Potter: Yes for forgery. Sea of Trouble.
a man
Dealing with Tsang On-wing's writing, witness said he believed the writing in the bodies to be Tsang's natural, genuine and un- disguised writing, and suggested that the block "z" in Katz and the "" in Tak were attempts to dis-
Mr. Potter also asked why guise the writing. Tsang "should embark on the stormy sea of trouble" if he was in
ii.
Suggestion Withdrawn.
Yes, that is another matter. Up to this time you had given evidenco in Court on other occasions?—Yes.
Do I understand you to say that you are able to attribute a part!- cular ploce of writing to a parti- cular person, granted you have oufficient data? Yes,
That is also reduced to an exact cienco which is as exact as the. detection of forgery? There may Qualifications Disclaimed. be room for error. With regard to chops, measure-
Great Error Possible. "I am going to put it to you that ment of chops, forged chops, when you were able to go in the witness there may be room for a very great box and say "I have microscopical-
Mr. Potter repeated his question, ly examined certain chop marks, error," remarked Mr. Potter. After being reminded that he measured them with scientific
tainty. Witness, asked again if he could had not said this at the criminal instruments, and I can definitely and witness replied in the affirma- that chop and therefore forged, or Professor Shellshear said to his give a reason why 60 sheques were trial, witness withdrew the bus way that one impression is not from live, adding within a moral car stolen if Tsang was in the swindle gestion, agreeing with Mr. Potter that is from the chop and there-Lordship that it was a very hard question to answer absolutely said that that question was it was not a fair point to go to fore genuine? Yes, that was the highly speculative, mang the jury to indicate criminality on class of evidence.
Mr Potter:The theft ofthe part of Teang..
I put it to you that up to that honestly, as ho felt doubts that His Lordship pointed, out that chaques la entirely consistent, with
Mr. Potter went on to question time you had never stood in the must be present in any man's mind. the Government's case? Yes, witness as to the block "2" in witness box as a handwriting exwitness had claimed it was an exact question was science and the Have you found any caso on Katz, the former suggesting that pert? That is so.
On the contrary, I put it to you whether the writing on the disputed Mr. Black's signature where the
as the question of disguise had pen pressure was on the top of the been withdrawn, there remained that more then once, when asked cheques was forged.
a question which in any way ap
Referring to the "exact science cross atroke or on the right hand only two other explanations, accl- side of the "Of course, there dent or forgery, to which witness pertained to handwriting, you, in witness explained that he had is pressure there. I have not agreed. Witness, did not agree, that witness box, disclaimed the meant that the methods used were Heen any with pressure greater on however, that because of the ab-qualification of a handwriting ex-exact science. the right but there may be some. solute departure from customary pert?-Yes,
A Golf Joke.
His Lordship remarked that that The first time you went into the
was quite a different thing and A slight alteration in posture writing of a tail "z" and the with-" might changa -it:
Doesn't that show how wholly drawal of the disgufee point, witness box to give evidence as a commented that the law itself was
one reasonable handwriting expert was in the Yoo not an exact science.
casa?-Yes. undependable pen pressure is 7-forgery was the
explanation. regard it as one of the most dis Mr. Potter: Is it not remark- tinguishing features of writing.
able that Yeo, the man admitted- If you are right, what about the #tatement of Mitchell quoted yes-ly in the swindle, should use that Block "z" whereas Tsang. han terday? You must take into con- sideration' all the factors put to-never been known to use it up to
date? gether.
Witness replied it was a coin- cidence, but he would not go re far as to say that it was remark
Pen pressure per so you would not take as identifying a particu- lar writer?-Per se,
able.
1
Beware of Experts,
He agreed that the "z" used by Yeo was of the same form in the Questioned, further on the state- Katz choque. ment of Hitclicll to the effect that
Witness also agreed it was "It is not possible to say that strange that the "" in the Ilaze- anybody wrote 藕 particular land cheque, which is alleged to thing," witness. said he must hold have been written by Taang as a that statement with respect.
Mr. Potter: Your text books block "z" and then changed into a tail. "2" was, in form, distinct- emphasise the fact that we have ly different from the Katz "z." to beware of exports. They, like The case is proceeding. a counsel, might form an opinion
When did you decide that you
Mr. Potter remarked, with s were an expert in handwriting?
Witness replied that he decided afle "The methods with which aruse," whereat Mr. Jenkia com- before the Yeo case came on and you and I play golf are exact in that
a do
mented, amid laughter, it was not finite stand."
so if one "holed out" in ons' (re- he thought he had to take
Forced to Become Expert.
ferring to Mr. Potter's, recent Mr. Potter put it to witness achievement).
Professor Shellshear explained that he was forced to take that pool- tion because unless ho claimed the he had meant that the methods of qualifications of an expert, his selence were exactly applied. evidence would be entirely innd- migaible. That was obvious and present in his mind.
After again remarking that he was not trying to trap witness, Mr. Potter said that in the Yoo trial he had pressed the point spon Professor Shellshear agreed..
· Did you consult anybody about Professor Shelishear that he was it before taking that momentous claiming to be able to detect any. by counsel. If witness. liked, he with counsel. sten?--I presume I discussed It forgery and it was so pointed out You did discuss It with Mr. could now give up that pozition. Jenkin?-I have no recollection of Witness replied his opinion was
be detect the actual discussion but I have no that forgery could
(Continued on Page '0.) doubt that I did.
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