1918-10-18 — Page 10

THE BUDGET DEBATE.

"(Continued from page 9.) had not been credited to

THE_HONGKONG TELEGRAPH, FRIDAY, OCTOBER 18. 1918.

question with regard to the

About the different storm codes.

Government might take power to re other employees, which was not The Hon. Colonial Secretary said tare in respect of pensiona and cost them out roughly, taking the receipts quire them to furnish security for their future good behaviour, or, in practicable. Another thing was by that in reply to Mr. Hobosk who of management will ultimately equal the four per cent. contributions and Observatory which the honour- or, in dealing with the block on the Con- asked for a full statement regarding if not exceed the sum of the annual deducting the payments, ex-able member referred to, he could the Colony... default, to quit tot on your Bad naught Read front, which did not the Widows and Orphans Find the contributions together with interest penses, Bensions, etc. The capital not go into. He knew that when the get speech you expressed apprecia. take the same design as the Harbour Colonial Treasurer and outlined the on the capital calculated at 6 per sum would now be 81,117,835 The the honourable member spoke rectionEo said those things be Police Reserve in supervising the start on it very rapidly and while to enable Hon. Members to underhand anticipate that the capital of In the figures before you to-day the quainted with the subject and of fund: Es spoke subject to cortion of the good work done by the Office, they were enabled to make position, but had not given detailscent The Civil Service on the other interest on that would be $67,009 that he was certainly well ac cause he had had deputation after search of passengers' baggage at that was proceeding they were able stand how the position came about the Fund will increase so largely estimated receipts are $53,000. That what had taken place and he deputation for the last six. thonths the various whares. Since ther to proceed with the drawings of the In 1905 the fund was taken over and as to revise and to increase the gives an income of $190,000. The extrusied that some arrangement on the subject and if the Govern- were put on this work some fire main block and so the whole scheme 4 sessional paper was laid on the rates of pension; and they are prependiture before you to-day is might be arrived at. ment was not aware that there was months ago on the recommendation would go though more quickly than table which contained a sketch of the pared to undertake for themselves estimated at $27,000 Although the very great dissatisfaction and very of a Committee on which I had the would otherwise be the case. A bistory of the fund up to that date, the risk that the Government now Secretary of State has pointed out thank honourable members with great suspicion in the administra-honour to serve, not a single com-similar expedient was adopted with As the Hon. Member said the fund proposes to undertake, namely that the undesirability of, these valua regard to the salaries of public

this time, with the compulsory de- to record our ductions which were enforced and

grateful thanks. Other Spreches. the 6 per cent of the Government, Hon. Mr. Chan Kai Ming said: which would have accrued, "would Sir.-The views and suggestions of have been now somewhere about aroy Chinese colleague have my cor- million dollars or over, and the pen-dial support. As an old resident,

most unjust

His Excellency: Hear, hear

On behalf of the Service he must

the expenditure may eventually extions, I have no doubt he would be servants. It was proposed that tion of this fund the sooner they re-plaint of 'squeeze against the sear the Central Police Sation. The was established in 1591.

The Colonial Secretary-The bon, ceed the income.

willing to consider the valuation of the salaries of the whole service cognised it the better. The grier chers has come to notice. (Applause.) foundations did not need much work

member representing the Chamber "With regard to the second of the the Fund on the present basis. No should be revised and the sugges- ance apparently was this, that if the On behalf of my Chinese colleague in the office and while they were pro. fund had not been taken over the and myself as representing the ceeding the drawings for the rest of of Commerce has asked for a ful Committee's findings it is urged by doubt the Fund has been peculiarly tion that had been made on that ion of the Government. Probably. original fund of $371,000 would by Chinese Community, I desire bere the work were prepared and had it statement regarding the Widows a majority of the contributors that fortunate in having no heavy pension subj, èt would have the considers-

not been for the iron material being and Orphans' Pension Fund, and the each officer is in natural justice calls upon it. One other matter 14

now it would be at an eärlier date hold up the work would have beer! Treasurer has outlined the position, Jentitled to the eventual return with may mention. It is connection with then was thought possible

stating that a valiation is required interest of that portion of his sal- the shipping funds. The money ish regard to the smaller su-n finished aow. The next question but has not given the details which way which he has been compelled kept in sinking funds for insurance provided for Afforestation that was

reference to the asked was with

will enable kon, members to under- to surrender. They suggest in place against war iroks. The whole money on the recommendation of the Sham Shui-po reclamation. The

stand how the prosent position is of the existing scheme a scheme of is kept available and a part. total scheme provided for 625 acres come to. In 1905, when the Fund compulsory individual insurabee

offices and if it were found of which 250 acres were building land war takes over, & sessional paper based upon the present 4 per cent.

His Excellency's Sp èch. that a larger sum could be us-. ion to the widows would have been well remember the free Govern-

estimated that 5,000 was laid on the table which contain reduction of salary with the stipula proceeding to deal with the sum would

His Excellency said that beforeed without waste the larger on a very much higher ratio than atment vernacular schools mentioned and it was present. Further there was a very con- by him. There are still living several houses could be built. The only parted a sketch of the history the tion that the policies shall be held matters raised by Hon. Members asked for. Afforestation in the certainly be siderable grievance that a bachelor prominent members of the Chinese that had been dealt with at present Fund up to date. The hon. member by the Government or by a Board that had not so far been dealt with New Territories was an important had to pay into this fund willy nilly Crumunity who received the rudi-nder the estimate was the part stated the Fund was established in of Directors and that an officer shall be would like to state that the subject and they only needed and if he died a bachelor he could meats of their education at such in-thown as A on the map which con 1. Using the words of a Secre- have no power to alienate his policy debate had traversed more points keenness and assistance from the not regain any part of it, which was stitutions: It would be interesting tained about 70 the building area tary of State:

from his wife or children or to dis- and in every way had been more inhabitants of those territories atisfactory, than any he had with which it was quite possible to speculate what the honourable being nearly $8 acres. This would

"To prevent the possibility of continue his payments thereon." member of this Council for whom I be completed in about three years widows and orphans, of deca ou The Service was unanimously op-listened to since he had been in that this scheme, beginning as s Mr. Holyoak on behalf of the civil am now acting would have become, and they would be able to built from Colonial officials being left dessute posed to the proposal, and made the Colony on the second reading mere experiment, might develop of the Supply Bill. It showed that tar more rapidly than they servants therefore asked for full had he not had chance of a free ver.36 to 40 houses per acre on the build-through the omission or inability of certain recommendations. The Go-hon. members were taking very thought, in which case the Gay- statement and explanation of the nacular and English education in his ing area. The total cost of this the latter to zinke proper provision Ternment accepted these recommen-

great interest, which the Gov

ernment would not hesitate to go. present condition of the fund, which young days. The probability is that operation was put in the estimates at for thema, Funds were established dations and Ordinance 17 of 1900 was ernment hoped they would always to the Council for more money. seemed to call for very full considera Hongkong would have lost one of its 30,000. The delay in proceeding during the eighties and early fire-passed, showing the benefits... we ske in the affairs of the Colony

·tion and it needs be revaluation of most public-spirited

with the work of the Fraya East re- ties--in Ceylon, Mauritius, the were to get. This was sent Home and he was particularly attracted and' useful the fund and that a committee of citizens. There may, at this mo-

clamation was due the fact that cer- Straits Settlements, the Federated and the Ordinance was disallowed by the suggestion made by the enquiry should be appointed to deal ment, be many youngsters among the tain negotiations with lot holders Malay States, Hongkong, Thana The Secretary of State, towards the Hon Member on his right (Mr with the whole matter.

Landale) that in pursuance of that were not complete, also to a slight Trinidad and British Guians; and close of his dispatch, says: — poor who. if given the same oppor- tunity, might one day rise to posi extent the work was held up by the all permanent officers were required "I will now proceed to explain the cheme the expenditure on public Hon. Mr. Ho Fook: Sir, I rise tops of honour similar to those atabsence of the engineers carrying out to contribute 4 per cent of their reasons for the abolition of the Fund works should be submitted to be several points under Edues considered by the Public Works tion. He would deal first to endorse the remarks of the hoa-tained by our friend, and render in the work. Mr. Jaffe and Mr. salaries to the Fund. The area By this course the interests of mem-

Committee before the estimates with the question of verna portant services to the Colony. A Surable member representing the

veryment made in effect a large coftribers of the Fund are in no way in were framed. The Government cular education, which was a Chamber in reference to the Sai-rater of education which neglects much associated with this work bution to the Fund by agreeing to jured. The Government binds itself would always be prepared subject in which he was personal- on leave and would re-pas-interest at the high rate of to pay pensions according to Pension to receive suggestions, as to ly very interested and had been yingpun School and the salary of its the up-bringing of the children of were

the poor must be wrong, and the turn at the beginning of next year. per cent on the monies belonging to Tables mentioned in the Ordinance, the expenditure of public money, for many years before be came to Headmaster. I wish at the same! time to touch upon the question of

sooner it is remedied the better it With regard to the question asked the Fund which were deposited with and the rates contained in those but it must be remembered that this Colony. He had made cer- vernacular education in this Colony,

will be for the good name of this by Hon. Mr. Landale referring to it. Pensions were paid to vilows Tables are based on the assumption in the Royal instructions under tain suggestions and any delay which the Government of the which took place in dealing with At the beginning, of 1917, in order to prosperous and otherwise progres- telephones in the New Territory, it or orphans of contributors according that compound interest at 6 per Colony worked, every vote of the very generous proposals put meet a long-felt and much needed sive Colony. With regard to the ques. they had only one line to Central to Pension Tables prepared by Accent, is, and will continue in effect public money, etc, must be propor- forward by Mr Lau Chu Fak and tion of a wholesale poultry market, 1 Station that would mean making the turies based upon the best morto be, paid by the Government. The ed by the Governor unless it was others in connection with verna- want, the Confucian Society, sup also find myself in agreement with the Central having a switch at Central tality statistics available ported by the generosity of certain

only advantage which Government expressly allowed or directed by cular schools was, he might say, Chinese gentlemen, opened a num-

| honourable member representing the Station which would make it sub- "Early in the present century it obtains is that it is relieved from him. He had said every year since due to his anxiety to try and ar- ber of free Chiness schools in dif. Tastices of the Peace. I was a mem-sidiary to the telephone exchange became evident that the Fund sys- the necessity (inherent in the old he had been in the Colony that he rive at a satisfactory arrange- ferent parts of the Colony for the her of the Sub-Committee of the which was not deemed desirable. tem though necessary to enable the system of these Funds) of contribut came from the Straits Settlements ment when he had so many education of the children of the Sanitary Board mentioned by him. As to carrying out the plan of the pension system to be started, was ing 6 per cent. compound interest where the estimates were consi- other things to do that he and I know how real and insanitary Automobile Association referred to not altogether satisfactory, and the on surpluses, should such exist, honour b'e member proposed. The was proposed to give grants

dered by such a committee as the could not deal with it. who would otherwise be unable,

by Mr. Landale, whom he thanked policy of successive Secretaries of which have the effect of continuously committee at Singapore consisted but nothing appeared in next year's through poverty, to send them the nuisance complained of is. school. Mr. Las Chu-pak, in his am cure that if the officials who bave for his compliments, he thought the State recente has been to get the increasing the surpluses and of of the Colonial Secretary, the Tres estimate because the grants did not capacity as President of the Society authority to deal with and dispose reply stated that it would receive Colonial Government to take overthrowing on the Government a larger sarer, with all Unofficial Mem- become payable until near the close represented the matter to the Go. of this matter were to spend a couple consideration and under the scheme the Funds and to guarantee the pen-lburden than was reasonable or necesbers, and the committee for Penang of next year, although these schools sary. On the other hand if there consisted of the Resident Coun had come under the grant system. of hours in Ko Shing or Li Shing it was receiving consideration. Thesions in return for the 4 per cent. the

contributions.'. Street while sorting of poultry is plans were in skeleton, but it would

were at any time a deficit, the funds cillor and the Unofficial Members He thought there was no doubt that "The proposal that the Govern-stem would tend to increase that of Penang. They went systémati

The Hon. Mr. Ho Fook.

vernment, and asked that

schools be brought under the Grant in-aid Scheme. Although the repre-

Duncan who had beep

With regard to what had been said about the Fire Brigade that point would be carefully noted for

All the members referred to

consideration.

Now it

in progress, they would have the take some detailed surveys before ment should take over the Fund was deficit, since the Government con- cally through the estimates item the Government would consider the March 1917, I am sorry that no nzo After all, the amount necessary fortainly it would receive consideration. Government by the Secretary ofón a balance smaller than that need a thorough revision after their in doing in the New Territory at the sentation was made as far back as nuisance stopped in very quicktime, they could be dealt with, but cerfirst placed before the Hongkong Itribution would then be calculated by item, probably sitting, three question of not only improving the

*o-day have smaller chances of re-ceeded with at once.

ceiving even an elementary educa.

a

The

His Excellency: The suggestion was that the high exchange should With be made use of

Scheme.

rision for this very necessary ex-

[building this market is not so very At the present moment the office had State in July, 1909, and in February: ed to meet the future liabilities of troduction in Council and went present, but of maknig them free days a week and the estimates had vernacular schools, as they were, penditure has been made in the Es-large an outlay that the Colony can-more than it was able to do. timates now before us. It is zo not bear, especially when it will bring suggestions re Sairingpun School, that the Executive Council and the tribution would therefore be less second reading in possibly a very',

1503, your predecessor wrote stating the fund, and the Government com back to the Council for their or of merely nominal fees. The Sai-

· exaggeration to say that the chip in a not inconsiderable revenge. Ithe Lunatic Asylum would also reDirectors of the Fund unanimously than the amount required to main- much sitered form. However, ingpun school had for many years dren of the Chinese labouring class therefore urge that the work be pruceive consideration. The matter of agroed to the adoption of that

Hon. Mr. S. H. Dodwell: The detau Regarding the crematorium mainly as to whether the Pension condition of the fund must be one points and had brought forward pose, but it had been felt that it signs on lamp posts was a matter of course. Correspondence followed. tain an equilibrium between the as this year he was glad to say past been recognised as on & sita sete and liabilities. Thus the normal tion in their own language than those ground. has been so well covered by he regretted to say that it was part Tables recently introduced in Cey of more or less unstable equilibram, a number of most interesting would be a waste of money to spend Honourable Members has asked quite agamitable and in a building for. information on' certain not nearly large enough for the pur- if a decade or so ago when, as some the other unofeial members that ly his own fault that that matter lon might properly be adopted in ad "this unsatisfactory condition and most useful proposals," which farther sums in trying to improve of you may remember, the Govern there is only one point I wish to had not gone through the Public Hongkong when the Fund was taken ment maintained a number of free raise; but that I think is an imWorks Committee.

The omission over--but in April, 1905, Mr. Lyitel would be intensified through the the Government would 210- Chinese schools.

There must be portant one. It has reference to the was due to pressure of work

zon forwarded a draft of an ordin-small size of the Hongkong Fund doubtedly give their best con- the present building. He hoped that thousands of children bere whose controlled ships, account, which was The Hon. Colonial Treasurer reply-ance to effect the transfer of the Besides those indicated above, the sideration to. Taking the remarks before long the school would be mor fathers belong to this class, and who briefly touched upon by the hening to question raised by the speak Fund and asked that it might be policy recommended has, other ad-latter, had said that the policy of then the Government would no

of Me · Land cle first,

theed to a larger and better site and are British-born subjects; and the senior unofficial member.

ers said that regarding the form of introduced as soon as convenient." vantages. The necessity for peric short leases resulted in the short doubt find a very good use for the State owes them the duty of giving Sir, I presume from the fact that the accounts that was explained That proposal was put before the dic costly and troublesome valuations age of houses. He did not know present site of the school The them at least an elementary veras certain items in these accounts from some few years ago. It was adopted Civil Servants. A Committee was is avoided. Moreover the experience what ground Mr Landale had for merits of the present Headmaster cular education so as to enable them the fact that they have not been on the instructions of the Secretary appointed to enquire and report of other colonies has shown that making that statement. Leases for were also thoroughly recognised and to become useful members of society. kept separate that it does not mean of State. In connection with the loan upon the proposal. We reported in where distinct funds with separate seventy five years with the option he was a man who would get to the I am therefore strongly of the opin- that the local Government purposes it was suggested that there was no November, 1905.

accounts exist it is difficult to satisfy of renewals for seventy-five years ion which, I know, is shared by the to appropriate the profits arising information about the investments (i) That the Service is unani that members who when the assets could not he regarded as so short a top of the tree without any doubt. leading members of Chinese Com-from this ship control scheme. I of the sinking fund, He pointed out mously opposed to the propo

of the Fund have reached or the con period as to in any way influence The reason for the difference be munity, that the Government should take it that the account will not that this information was given cm sal that the Fund should be tributable figure are apt to think the builders. It was not of course tween the salaries of the Headmas re-establish free vernacular schools, only be kept separate, but the pro- the 31st. December each year and transferred to the Governmen. that the pensions can be consider 999 years leases given in the early pan schools was merely that it was a lease ia perpetuity such as the tera of Ellis Kadoorie and Baiying- and assist those free Chinese schools ceeds, will in due course be handel was laid on the table with the an- (ii.) That a majority of contribuably increased or the contributions days of the Colony, but it certain found that there was an op which owe their existence to pri- over to the Home Government. nual accounts. It was tabled some

tors are in favour of a com. reduced. vate enterprise, by bringing them

ly was a term which would not portunity for appointing a certain Goverment Replies

time last May.

pulsory insurance scheme in "I have felt it necessary to advise affect the policy of any man or master to the head of Ellis Kadooria under the Grant-in-aid Scheme. If The Hon. Acting Director of Pub.

place of the present Pensions His Majesty to exercise his powers body of men in putting up a build-school who was on higher salary. it is now too late to make provision lic Works, replied to points raised

of disallowase in respect of Ordin- ing As regarded the policy pur- If he were appointed to another for the latter in the Estimates for by the Unofficial Members. next year, I suggest that a supplereference to the questions raised by

(i.) That a majority prefer that ance No. 17 of 1906 and it is disallow. sued of recent years of requiring mentary vote be taken as soon as the Hon. Mr. Landale he would like

the existing scheme shoulded accordingly. I informed you of building covenant it had given post his successor would be at the continue, but are of the opin; the disallowance in my telegram of the old lots here, land in quite Sayingpun. There was no dif good results. They saw some of same salary as the Headmaster of possible.

to point out the shortage of staff Arising out of the consideration in the department, which influenced

ion that the perisions are in the 19th inst.”

thickly populated places not built terence between the headmaster. of the estimated expenditure under nearly everything dealt with in the

sufficient in view of the large The matter was referred again to upen because without the condi-ship of the two schools in that sense, "Law and Order," I desire to make office at the present time. Out of a

amount of the total annual: the Committee and they reported in tion of the building covenants contributions. some suggestions for the suppression total of 20 engineers they had at

They further June, 1907," that a large majority of there was no necessity to build

With regard to the removal of of serious crimes in the Colony. present only 17 and out of 30 over-ed bare much depreciated.

suggest that the daughters of the members were strongly opposed and there was ground which would restrictions on trade, the present Murders, armed robberies, cutting seers there were only 18 on duty.

deceased officers should be to the Fand being taken over by the provide for many housse lying idle rules were certainly irksome and and wounding, and burglaries seem They had lost an engineer and one have to be taken into account. An

supported from the Fund until Government. That was forwarded in the Colony simply because the the work of the Department of to be on the increase, and I think of their chief overseers by death other important point to which two

marriage instead of until the to the Secretary of State, and the prices. On this same subject the certain war measures which would owners were waiting for higher Import and exports included that the rumber of such offences can quite recently and that made things speakers referred to was the Widows the transfer of the Fund the Com-substitution of an insurance scheme ed that in addition to making the war of alter the character of

age of twenty-one years only. reply was: "I may say at once that honourable member representing no doubt cease, but nothing bad best be reduced by stronger mea worse than before. With regard to and Orphans' Fund. It was very like mittes, desire to point out that the for the Fund, and, again, I have roads opening up areas for build free port which Hongkong possessed, "With regard to the question of I am not prepared to consider the the Justices of the Peace suggest been done as far as he knew during sures being taken to prevent the the Imports and Exports office the smuggling of arms into Hongkong, sum provided represented a portion is that it would be found that the Government has, under Section 13 therefore come to the conclusioning the Government should level and the unlawful possession of dess of the scheme, which dealt with the figures in the present schedule were of Ordinance No, 30 of 1800 and Bec that the original proposal, that the the sites and build retaining Hon Mr. Holyoak queried about ly weapons. Some measure of suc- Connaught Road front. The total somewhat smaller than the fund tion 5, of Ordinance No. 3 of 1000; Government should take over the walls and taske drains and do the permits necessary for importa cess might be achieved in this direc- amount on the estimates for that could well afford but to say that with guaranteed that all contributions Fund and guarantee pensions on the other things. Whatever the Gov- and exporte tion if notices in English and particular building was $70,552 and certainty would be impossible with shall during the continuance of the Ceylon pension tables in return for where it was feasible, he though after its character as a free

ernment might do in Kowloon, ese warning passengers against in- it was to be completed in fifteen out valuation by actuaries and ex-

Fund bear interest at the rate of the four per cont, contributions must it would be too much on this side

His Excellency. That does not fringements of the Arms Ordinance months from July 12. Some point perts in these matters. The fact were posted upon board the steam had been raised as to why they did that the 6 per cent was not paid was Government, employs the Fund for date to introduce and pass the neces walls. But it was an Interesting His

6 per cent, per annum.

be adopted, and I have to request of the harbour to ask them to

Mr. Holyoak mentioned the ers calling at this port. I have no not do the whole scheme at once of curse obvious any expert in in

"Under present circumstances the that you will take steps at an early level the sites and build retaining duty on tobacco. such steamers would gladly co to disturb the work of the depart control he secured the council that est for the use of the money. The passed. The Fand was taken over the carrying out of the building purposes of General Expendituresary Ordinance. That was done, question as to whether there operate with the Government in this ment as little as possible. If the matter. In the case of persons who whole scheme were undertaken at the accounts were kept quite dis Committee understands that it is

in that matter so se ko, facilitate ar known to the Authorities to be one time it would have been deces tinct and separate and even in the

on the 1st of January, 1908, interest enterprises with greater apsed mdesirables and without regular sary to find temporary Locomodamon Trenary statement the necount at

that they d be carried out if mployment, but who cannot for for all the department elsewhere in the

ing was pat As be deported the addition to Hring-

the Government

another point. It is a anggestion The Colonial Treasurer: That is

which might be considered, I have no remarks to make at present membered that sterling securities in His Excellency: "It has to be re- the which the sinking fund is invest-

The Colonial Treasurer: That will

doubt that owners and agents, of It was divided in this way in order surarce. On the subject of shipping paying 6 per cent, compound inter- and Ordinance 15 of 1908 was duty might not be more give and take

now proposed that the Government should cease to pay interest upon

The Government is apparently

that the opinion that the annual expendi, Hol for the

"being"

zoellency: said that

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