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Q-What degree or kind of disorderly conduct would raise the offence to the level of an act of insubordination under Rule 274 ?
A-Disorderly conduct is really a crime for which I should not whip a prisoner. unless it was anything extreme.
Q-Supposing a man persisted in ten days' holloaing and shouting, what would you do with him?
A-If it was such a very gross case as that and I found I could not stop him in any other way, I should then feel justified in whipping him.
Q-You consider that an "act of insubordination requiring to be suppressed by extraordinary means?"
A-Most certainly.
Q-Do you take it that the words "persistent and aggravated" in Rule 272 qualify "refusal to labour ?"
A--No.
Q--You have not read the Rule in that way?
A-I have not read the Rule in that way.
Q-Rule 272 provides the punishment for refusal to labour, does it not?
A-It does.
Q-Do you make use of this punishment?
A-Yes, I make use of it in cases of prisoners sentenced to fourteen days and under. Q-Do you not make use of it in the case of long-sentence prisoners?
A-No.
Q-Why not?
A--Because their labour, as a rule, is a different class of labour, and they set a very bad example in the yard by refusing, and I consider that a heavier punishment is necessary. To stop the supper only in case of refusal to labour would be absolutely useless. Prisoners would refuse to labour more constantly-prisoners would cease to labour even in the forenoon, knowing that perhaps for the first time they would only have their supper stopped; and other prisoners would follow suit.
Q-But is not the punishment of deprivation of the evening meal the punishment specifically laid down for refusal to labour; and that being so ought you not to impose that punishment in the case of refusal to labour?
A--In such cases the punishment has been found absolutely insufficient for the gravity of the offence. I was told that when I took charge of the Prison.
Q-You see the question is: what is the punishment laid down for certain offences? it is not a question whether you consider that the punishment laid down for certain offences is sufficient or insufficient. I put it to you again. In the case of a long-sen- tence prisoner who the first time refused to labour, how is he punished?
A-If I see that the prisoner has been working up to a certain time and he complains of weakness I caution the prisoner if I consider that the prisoner was not really fit for the work; but in the case of an able-bodied man who refuses to labour I then give him three days' solitary rice and water. I consider that to be serious disobedience of the Prison Rules.
Q-For what cases would you impose the punishment of flogging for refusal to labour ?
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