Sessional_Paper_1893 — Page 573

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Mr. Bird.--Are these defalcations confined to Alves?

A. Yes, as far as we know. We have examined all the books. There is one check which of course banks usually employ-and mercantile houses too I suppose-- which was not available in the Treasury very easily, and I believe it was because he saw that the check coming on that gave Alves his first idea that something would be found out. I mean the check of putting different people to different work. When I joined the Treasury I found three or four senior men, none of whom could leave their desks for a moment, and being leading men in the Treasury it was difficult to get them to do anything but what they were accustomed to. At the end of last year I got the new men to work and as soon as that was done I believe Alves made preparations for going.

The Chairman. Have you ascertained when these defalcations began?

A.—We only know by comparison with the Rent Roll which shows what ought to have been collected. Apparently they began at the beginning of 1887 or 1888.

Mr. Thurburn. The balances ought to have been done periodically.

Mr. Bird. You ought to know the total of the Crown Rents collected and the amount that ought to be collected.

Mr. Thurburu.-That is the mistake in the system.

Mr. Bird.--If the book was not written up who was to see how much was in arrear?

A.-Alves said that he was working overtime and doing it as he could. I am sorry now that I did not get in somebody from outside and have it done by main force, but I did not expect that money was passing through his hands, or that the arrears were really dangerous.

due?

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The Chairman.—Were any arrears ever reported to you- arrears of money being

A. Yes, we used to send notices to people in arrear. Alves constantly told me of people who were in arrear and he would see them or write to them. Sometimes I told them that proceedings would be taken.

Q.-You never saw a regular list of arrears?

A.--No, I don't think I ever saw that. It was supposed to be shown in these books at the end of the year.

Q. When you joined in 1891 were any of the previous books made up--the Rent Roll books?

A.-I did not look at the books previous to my year, when I went to the Treasury. I cannot say about previous years, whether they were made up. Those now in the Treasury I can see have been balanced.

Q.-You do not know whether the book for 1889 or 1890 was balanced? A.—1889 I do not know. 1890 was not balanced. 1889 was missing.

Q.-Nor 1888?

A. No, I believe he took them from the Office a year or two ago with the intention of balancing them.

Mr. Bird.-Did you know they were missing?

A.-No. The books were kept in his desk and I had not the slightest idea when they went. I should think it was about a year ago,

Mr. Thurbury.-You would take it for granted, I suppose, that in the books for 1889 everything was closed up?

A. Certainly. I was new to the work and I did not know anything about these

arrears.