HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5757 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Wednesday, 26 July 1995
The Council met at Nine o’clock
PRESENT
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE SIR JOHN SWAINE, C.B.E., LL.D., Q.C., J.P.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, C.B.E., J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE SIR NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, K.B.E., J.P.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D., J.P. THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P.
5758 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI
THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA
THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN
DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5759 THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO
THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALFRED TSO SHIU-WAI
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
ABSENT
THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
5760 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 IN ATTENDANCE
MR MICHAEL LEUNG MAN-KIN, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER
MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
MR RONALD JAMES BLAKE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR WORKS
MR JAMES SO YIU-CHO, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE
MR HAIDER HATIM TYEBJEE BARMA, I.S.O., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT
MR NICHOLAS NG WING-FUI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS
MR MICHAEL DAVID CARTLAND, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES
MR DOMINIC WONG SHING-WAH, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING
MR PETER LAI HING-LING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
MR BOWEN LEUNG PO-WING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
MR KWONG KI-CHI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY
MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY
MRS SHELLEY LAU LEE LAI-KUEN, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE
THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG
THE DEPUTY SECRETARIES GENERAL
MR RAY CHAN YUM-MOU AND MISS PAULINE NG MAN-WAH
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5761 PAPERS
The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject
Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No.
Public Health (Animals and Birds) (Licensing of
Livestock Keeping) (Amendment)
Regulation 1995 ................................................................................ 325/95
Waste Disposal Ordinance (Amendment of
Schedules) Notice 1995..................................................................... 326/95
Insurance Companies (Determination of Long Term
Liabilities) Regulation ...................................................................... 327/95
Insurance Companies (Margin of Solvency)
Regulation......................................................................................... 328/95
Motor Vehicles Insurance (Third Party Risks)
(Amendment) Regulation 1995 ......................................................... 329/95
Pleasure Grounds (Urban Council) (Amendment)
(No. 2) Bylaw 1995........................................................................... 339/95
Animals and Plants (Protection of Endangered
Species) (Exemption) (Amendment) Order 1995.............................. 340/95
Animals and Plants (Protection of Endangered
Species) Ordinance (Replacement of Schedules)
Notice 1995....................................................................................... 341/95
Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance
(Public Pleasure Grounds) (Amendment of
Fourth Schedule) (No. 4) Order 1995 ............................................... 342/95
Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance
(Public Pleasure Grounds) (Amendment of Fourth
Schedule) (No. 5) Order 1995........................................................... 343/95
Trade Marks Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule)
Order 1995 ........................................................................................ 344/95
5762 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
Smoking (Public Health) (Notices) (Amendment)
Order 1994 (L.N. 558 of 1994) (Commencement)
Notice 1995....................................................................................... 345/95 Pneumoconiosis (Compensation) Appeal Rules........................................ 346/95 Trainee Solicitors (Amendment) (No. 2) Rules 1995................................ 347/95
Hong Kong Royal Instructions 1917 to 1993
(Nos. 1 and 2) - Ending of the 1994-95
Session of the Legislative Council of
Hong Kong Notice 1995 ................................................................... 348/95
Hong Kong Royal Instructions 1917 to 1993
(Nos. 1 and 2) – Dissolution of the
Legislative Council of Hong Kong Order 1995 ................................ 349/95
Legislative Council (Date of General Election)
Notice 1995....................................................................................... 350/95
Electoral Provisions (Miscellaneous Amendments)
Ordinance 1995 (60 of 1995) (Commencement)
Notice 1995....................................................................................... 351/95
Merchant Shipping (Prevention and Control of
Pollution) (Charges for Discharge of Polluting
Waste) Regulation (L.N. 320 of 1995)
(Commencement) Notice 1995 ......................................................... 352/95
Sessional Papers 1994-95
No.117 － Sir David Trench Fund for
Recreation Trustee’s Report 1994-95
No.118 － Regional Council Revised Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for 1995-96
No.119 － School Medical Service Board Annual Report
for the year ended 31 March 1995
No.120 － Sir Robert Black Trust Fund Annual Report
for the year 1 April 1994 to 31 March 1995
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5763
No.121 － Revisions of the 1995-96 Estimates approved by
the Urban Council during the first quarter of the
1995-96 financial year
No.122 － Report of the Public Accounts Committee on
Report No. 24 of the Director of Audit on the
Results of Value for Money Audits July 1995
PAC Report No. 24
No.123 － Second Revised Codicil to the Paper
“Scope of Government Audit in Hong Kong –
“Value for Money” Studies”
No.124 － Hong Kong Trade Development Council
Annual Report 1994-95
ADDRESS
Report of the Public Accounts Committee on Report No. 24 of the Director of Audit on the Results of Value for Money Audits July 1995 PAC Report No. 24
Second Revised Codicil to the Paper “Scope of Government Audit in Hong Kong - “Value for Money” Studies”
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, on behalf of the Public Accounts Committee, I have pleasure in tabling today the Committee’s Report No. 24 and the Second Revised Codicil to the Paper “Scope of Government Audit in Hong Kong - “Value for Money” Studies”.
The Committee’s Report No. 24 responds to the Director of Audit’s Report on the value for money audits tabled in this Council on 26 April 1995. The Director’s Report covers a total of 11 subjects and the Committee have examined them all and heard evidence from altogether 40 witnesses before arriving at our conclusions and recommendations which have been set out fully in the PAC Report tabled today.
5764 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
I would like to highlight a few issues which are of particular concern to the Committee. On the subject relating to the Fire Services Department, the Committee have noted that although the Director of Audit’s review focuses on the inspection of places of public assembly and the issue of Fire Services Certificates, it has actually revealed a much broader and long-standing problem concerning the licensing of food establishments. The Committee are alarmed at the situation that many restaurants have started to operate whilst they are still in the process of applying for the requisite licences, allegedly because of the delay of the departments concerned in processing their licence applications. We strongly disapprove such illegal practices although we are sympathetic with operators’ difficulties. In the interest of public safety, we urge restaurant operators to immediately discontinue these illegal practices and we also call on the licensing authorities to favourably consider the request of the trade that the normal processing time for restaurant licences should be kept within 60 days. As there are so many parties involved in the licensing process, I do not need to say how important co-ordination has to be and in this case the responsibility of the licensing authorities, that is, the Urban and Regional Councils, is evident. We welcome the Director of Regional Services’ commitment to undertake the overall co-ordination in the licensing of food establishments within the jurisdiction of the Regional Council, but I must say we are disappointed with the Director of Urban Services’ response and the passive perception of his co-ordinating role in the whole matter. We sincerely hope that the two licensing authorities, through their respective executive arms, that is, the Urban Services Department and the Regional Services Department, will assume a more proactive co-ordinating role, and we also look forward to the early implementation of the provisional licensing system with a view to resolving this long-standing problem.
The Committee has also reviewed the problem of road openings which had been a subject of the PAC’s investigation at the commencement of this Legislative Council term. We were then hopeful that the lane rental trial, an experiment borrowed from the United Kingdom, might throw light on this particular problem. We are disappointed that the trial has taken an unduly long time to complete and many of the findings are but known facts which frankly do not need a trial to find out. With hindsight, we cannot help but conclude that if the Administration has had examined carefully details of the United Kingdom experiment before trying it out in Hong Kong, we would have saved much time and money. Whilst noting the various measures being taken to reduce the incidence of delays in the completion of utility works, we recommend that the Administration should seriously examine the Japanese common utility ducts system and consider introducing, as a matter of policy, such system as a standard provision for all new trunk roads in Hong Kong. We must bear in mind that it is not only the frustration and inconvenience caused to the public by the repeated and multiple road excavations, but also the enormous economic and social costs to the community brought about by the traffic congestion caused by road excavations.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5765
I would also like to highlight the Committee’s concern on the briefing out system of the Legal Department. In the Director of Audit’s Report, it is suggested that briefing out is very expensive and that the amount of briefing out work should be reduced to the minimum. The Committee take a slightly different view and on this point we concur with the Attorney General that there are good public interest reasons for maintaining the briefing out system. Moreover, from the latest figures provided by the Legal Department, it is apparent that the costs of briefing out varied at different court levels and that it is not necessarily more expensive than undertaking those cases in house. However, we are surprised that although the briefing out system has been introduced for over 30 years, there appears to be neither a clear policy nor any written guidelines governing its operation. We are also very disappointed with the defensive attitude taken by the Attorney General at the public hearing defending the payment of maximum fees as standard fees in every standard briefing-out case having no regard to the fact that this is a violation of the authorized scale approved by the Finance Committee and that the Legal Department has since 1 April this year changed its practice by assessing fees. We are extremely concerned that the Legal Department’s act was not only ultra vires, but also more importantly caused a disparity in the payment of briefing out fees between the Legal Department and the Legal Aid Department. Such disparity in payment of fees in the past had obviously put the Legal Aid Department in a disadvantageous position when competing with the Legal Department for counsel and this is contrary to the principle that fairness and equity require both the prosecution and the defence to be accorded legal representation of broadly the same quality. We understand that a working party has been set up to conduct a comprehensive review of the briefing out system. We hope that the review is not a course of delaying action but will truly help to revamp the system to enable it to stand up to public scrutiny.
Mr President, when I tabled the PAC Report No. 23 in February this year, I informed Members about the new arrangements adopted by the Committee whereby PAC Members no longer enjoy the privilege of receiving advance copies of the Director of Audit’s reports but to be supplied with the reports at the same time as other Members of the Council. I am happy to report that the new arrangements have worked well and we intend to have them implemented on a permanent basis. Today, I would also like to inform Members of some further changes to the arrangements which are related to the submission of the Director of Audit’s reports to the Legislative Council. In accordance with the Revised Codicil to the Paper entitled “Scope of Government Audit in Hong Kong - “Value for Money” Studies” and tabled in the Council, the Director of Audit shall report his findings on value for money studies twice a year and the one issued in October each year shall be combined with his annual report on the accounts of the Hong Kong Government. Following a recent review and having regard to international practice, the Director of Audit has proposed to split the combined report issued in October into two reports, one on the accounts of the Hong Kong Government, that is, regularity audit, and the other on the results of value for money audits. This change will take effect in the Director of Audit’s
5766 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
next submission in October this year, and all the changes in the arrangements relating to the Director of Audit’s reports which I have just mentioned have been incorporated in the Second Revised Codicil tabled today.
I would also like to mention briefly the Committee’s recent deliberations on the subject of accountability of public organizations, in particular a proposal of empowering the Director of Audit in conducting value for money audits of major public organizations, including the two railway corporations. Members have advanced different views for and against such a proposal. I do not wish to go into details of the arguments on both sides as they have been conveyed to the Administration in writing and copied to all Members of the Council for information. I would, however, like to urge the Administration to give serious consideration to the matter and review the Government’s position having regard to the different views expressed by Members of the Committee.
This is the last occasion that I address this Council as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. I wish to take this opportunity to thank my colleagues for their support during the past years. On behalf of the Committee, I would also like to thank the Director of Audit for the assistance and many services which he and his staff have offered to us. Of course, we have been blessed by a succession of excellent Secretariat staff to service the Committee as well as receiving the helpful and timely advice of the Legal Adviser. It has been a privilege to serve on the Public Accounts Committee for the past seven years and I shall be watching with interest the development of the roles of the Director of Audit and the Public Accounts Committee in the years to come. We must not forget that our jobs are to ensure that the Hong Kong Government spends its money wisely.
Thank you, Mr President.
WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Environmental Protection of Sha Lo Tung
1. MR PETER WONG asked: In view of the fact that the Government has endorsed the environmental objectives of the 1992 Convention on Biological Diversity, will the Government inform this Council what active steps will be taken to conserve and protect the habitats and biological diversity in Sha Lo Tung which is generally accepted as a site of unique natural resources?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5767
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, Sha Lo Tung is mainly privately owned. It was a village area until the late 1970s when most of the villagers moved overseas or relocated to the urban areas. Undisturbed since, wildlife and plants colonized the abandoned fields and streams. Most of the species found there are not unique to this site and can also be found in other areas. The valley’s ecological value lies mainly in the stream courses which serve as the habitats of a diverse dragonfly community. The Agriculture and Fisheries Department (AFD) has been working on a proposal to designate these stream courses as Sites of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI).
The Sha Lo Tung Valley is the site of a proposed development. As required of all major development proposals in Hong Kong, the proposal in Sha Lo Tung is subject to the Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) procedures. It will not be allowed to proceed until and unless the EIA is completed and all environmental concerns － including the protection of the stream courses － have been satisfactorily addressed.
We will continue to monitor the situation at Sha Lo Tung. The Water Supplies Department takes water samples regularly from the stream courses and has found no pollution. AFD has found no evidence of any species protected under the Wild Animals Protection Ordinance being affected by the villagers’ recent earthwork. The earthwork has stopped since government departments, led by the Planning, Environment and Lands Branch, met the villagers on 28 June 1995.
Dental Training and Wastage
2. DR LAM KUI-CHUN asked: Will the Administration inform this Council of the following statistics concerning the dental profession:
(a) the current admission rate of the territory’s Dental School;
(b) the admission rate of the specialist training positions in the Dental School in the past three years; and
(c) the wastage rate of dental officers in the Civil Service due to retirement or emigration in the past three years?
5768 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) The actual intake of students on the Bachelor degree programme in Dental Surgery at the University of Hong Kong (HKU) in 1994-95 was 50. The planned intake for 1995-96 is also 50.
(b) Specialist training in dentistry at HKU takes the form of postgraduate training. HKU at present offers two taught postgraduate programmes in dental surgery. The student enrolments for the two programmes in the 1992-95 triennium are as follows:
1994-95
(fte)
1992-93 (fte*)
1993-94 (fte)
Postgraduate Diploma in Dental Surgery
10 10 11
Master in Dental Surgery 19 19 24 * full time equivalent
(c) The wastage rates of dental officers in the Civil Service due to retirement, emigration or other non-specified reasons over the past three years are tabulated below:
Wastage
Year Strength as at 1 January of the year
Retirement No. (Rate)
Emigration No. (Rate)
Other reasons No. (Rate)
1992 181 3 (1.66%) 1 (0.55%) 11 (6.08%) 1993 182 2 (1.10%) - 6 (3.30%) 1994 192 6 (3.12%) - 2 (1.04%)
International Private Leased Circuits
3. MR TAM YIU-CHUNG asked (in Chinese): Regarding the decision of the Telecommunications Authority that the Hong Kong Telecom International must supply international private leased circuits to paging companies, will the Government inform this Council whether it will, for the sake of safeguarding the job security of local workers, endeavour to prevent paging companies from making use of international private leased circuits as a pretext to move their operation centres to neighbouring regions, so as to prevent tens of thousands of operators in the paging industry from becoming into unemployment?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5769
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, the decision made by the Telecommunications Authority (TA) that Hong Kong Telecom International (HKTI) has an obligation to provide international private leased circuits to paging companies was in response to a request by a number of paging companies for a regulatory ruling under HKTI’s licence.
The radio paging service industry currently employs about 9 000 people in Hong Kong. The Government is aware of the concerns of the employees of paging companies and has conducted studies on the issue. The result of our analysis indicated that it is unlikely, at current cost structure and operating conditions in the neighbouring regions, that there would be a mass migration of paging operator services outside Hong Kong. Due to keen competition in the paging market, in addition to the cost consideration, a paging company has to take into account other competitive factors, such as the risk of relying on a long-distance circuit to provide service, the availability of other technical and service backup support, and its ability to control the quality of service provided by an external operation centre, in deciding whether to relocate its operation centre outside Hong Kong. To discourage paging companies from making use of international private leased circuits as a pretext to move their operation centres to the neighbouring areas, the TA has made clear that he will monitor closely the quality of service provided by paging companies and should it appear to him that service standards to customers have deteriorated, following a relocation of operations outside Hong Kong, he will take appropriate action in accordance with the licence conditions.
Abolition of First Asylum Policy
4. MISS EMILY LAU asked (in Chinese): As Hong Kong has been troubled by the problem of Vietnamese boat people (VBP) for many years and there is no indication of a complete solution to the problem in the near future, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether consideration will be given to abolishing the first asylum policy and at the same time adopting the established screening procedures to determine the status of the VBP who have come to Hong Kong seeking political asylum;
(b) of the deliberations and conclusions of the Geneva Conference held in 1994 and 1995 on the issue of “the abolition of the first asylum policy”; and
(c) whether the abolition of the first asylum policy required the approval of the British Government?
5770 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,
(a) Vietnamese migrants arriving in Hong Kong are granted first asylum. If they claim to be refugees, they are screened to determine whether they should be granted refugee status. We have no plans in hand to change these arrangements.
(b) At the meeting of the Fifth Steering Committee of the International Conference on Indochinese Refugees held in February 1994 in Geneva, it was agreed that Vietnamese arriving in first asylum countries after 14 February 1994 should be treated in accordance with national legislations and internationally accepted practices. Insofar as screening procedures are concerned, our current arrangements are already in accordance with these conditions. The decision of the Fifth Steering Committee was reaffirmed at the Sixth Steering Committee meeting held in March this year.
(c) Decisions regarding Vietnamese migrants in Hong Kong are basically made by the Hong Kong Government, but policies formulated by the Hong Kong Government involving external relations require the approval of the British Government. Accordingly, any decision made by the Hong Kong Government to modify or abolish the existing first asylum policy would require approval from the British Government.
Civic Education for Young People
5. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Chinese): A recent research report reveals that young people in the territory are far less concerned about politics, people’s livelihood and social issues than their counterparts in Guangzhou and Beijing. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) if it knows of the reasons for the apathy of young people in the territory towards political and social affairs;
(b) of the achievements by the Government in the field of civic education over the years; and what criteria have been adopted to assess the achievements in civic education in the past;
(c) whether the Government will review the present policy on, civic education and its direction; if so, when the review will be conducted; if not, why not; and
(d) whether the Government will enhance the civic education provided to young people; if so, what specific methods will be adopted and when they will be implemented; if not, why not?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5771
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President, Hong Kong has many committed and dedicated young people who actively participate in political and community activities. However, as the research report and our own studies reveal, there is also a tendency among young people in Hong Kong to take for granted the freedoms that they enjoy.
Over the last decade, the Government, through the Committee on the Promotion of Civic Education (CPCE), has placed great emphasis on promoting the concepts of the rule of law, representative government and human rights. Our success in developing political awareness in young people is illustrated by the fact that some 70% of those aged between 18 and 20 have registered as voters.
Civic education themes are reviewed annually. Building on the core elements of the rule of law, representative government and human rights, this year, our programmes and activities will pay particular attention to equal opportunities, rights of the child and the Basic Law.
Civic education for young people begins at school. The Curriculum Development Council and Education Department are presently reviewing the guidelines on teaching civic education in our schools and expect to release their proposals for public consultation this Autumn.
The CPCE already directs much of its efforts to reaching young people. Two teaching kits for secondary school students have been produced, one on human rights and the other on the rule of law. A new teaching kit is being prepared for primary school students. The purpose is to make students aware of their rights and responsibilities and to encourage their participation in community activities.
Economic Growth of Hong Kong
6. MR ALLEN LEE asked (in Chinese): As it is the general perception of the public that the economy of the territory is slowing down, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it has any concrete measures to boost the economy, so as to avoid the closing down of more businesses; and
(b) whether it is confident that the annual economic growth of the territory will reach the estimated level?
5772 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President,
(i) Although the retail and restaurant sectors are in the midst of a cyclical adjustment, a number of other sectors in the economy are doing well. The performance on the trade front is particularly impressive. Our domestic exports grew by about 8% in real terms in the first five months of this year, in stark contrast to the decline of 2% just last year. The growth rate in real terms of our re-exports, which has been consistently robust for many years, accelerated from 14% last year to about 18% in the first five months of this year. Concurrently, exports of services, particularly on offshore trading and the various services supporting merchandise trade, should have continued to rise significantly. Locally, investment spending has remained robust, underpinned by a strong absorption of machinery and equipment as well as intensive work on the new airport and related projects.
(ii) The good export performance and the strong growth in fixed asset investment should provide the key impetus to overall economic growth for the rest of the year, offsetting the slow-down in consumer spending. We are of the view that, in overall terms, the economy should still be able to attain respectable growth this year.
(iii) Our current forecast of real GDP growth for 1995 is 5.5%. Notwithstanding the increased downside risks, we believe this forecast is still broadly in order. A regular update of our short-term economic forecast will be carried out in August. Results will be announced towards the end of August, together with the publication of the Half-yearly Economic Report 1995.
(iv) We are doubtful about the merits of seeking to artificially stimulate the economy, especially at a time of relatively high inflation. The Government’s main role continues to be to provide an environment which is highly conducive to business. Market opportunities, which are not lacking in Hong Kong, in fact constitute the most effective direct economic stimulus. As to the pressures of resources and costs on businesses, the moderation of the labour market and the property market in recent periods should have an alleviating effect, thereby rendering an indirect economic stimulus.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5773 Second Runway at Chek Lap Kok Airport
7. MR MARTIN BARROW asked: Regarding the plans for the second runway at Chek Lap Kok Airport, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) on what basis and under what criteria a decision will be made on the second runway;
(b) how the actual Kai Tak traffic over each of the past five years compares with the original forecast (1989-1994);
(c) whether there is a revised forecast for each of the next 10 years (1995-2004) and how this compares with the forecast done when decision was made to delay the building of the second runway;
(d) whether the Government plans to consult the travel and tourism industry on the timing of the building of the second runway;
(e) how many months it will take to complete the second runway after a decision is made; and
(f) whether the Government will take into account the economic cost of delay when deciding on the timing of the building of the second runway?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, in accordance with the Memorandum Of Understanding Concerning The Construction Of The New Airport At Hong Kong and Related Questions (MOU), the British side will consult the Chinese side within the Airport Committee before the Hong Kong Government proceeds with any major airport project other than those in the Annex to the MOU. Such projects will only be initiated if the two sides have reached a common view concerning them. The second runway is not included under the Annex to the MOU. A decision on the timing of the second runway for the new airport will take into account factors such as the forecast air traffic demand, capacity of the first runway, time required for the construction and commissioning of the second runway and the financial and economic implications involved.
Certain air traffic forecasts for specified years were included in the New Airport Master Plan Study drawn up between 1990 and 1992. These forecast figures are being updated and examined by the Administration in consultation with the Provisional Airport Authority. No final conclusions have yet been reached.
5774 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
The Administration is always prepared to listen to the views of the travel and tourism industries on any issues related to the development of the new airport, including the timing for the construction of the second runway. We are aware of the desire of the travel and tourism industries and airlines to see the early commissioning of the second runway.
Kindergarten Subsidy Scheme
8. MR TIK CHI-YUEN asked (in Chinese): Regarding the Kindergarten Subsidy Scheme which will be introduced in September this year and the raising of the entry qualification for child care worker, will the Government inform this Council\:
(a) whether the proposed pay for kindergarten teachers will be adjusted according to the recently announced pay increase for civil servants, as is the case with child care workers;
(b) what is the estimated total amount of Government’s financial commitment, taking into account the fact that the number of kindergartens applying to join the Kindergarten Subsidy Scheme to date is lower than expected;
(c) whether, in view of the unsatisfactory response to the Scheme, the Government will consider reviewing immediately the details of the Scheme, including revising the upper limit of school fees; and
(d) what effect the raising of the entry qualification for child care workers will have on the fees charged by child care centres?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) We do not intend to adjust the recommended pay scale following the recent salary revision for the Civil Service. Unlike subvented child care centres, kindergartens are operated by the private sector, and pay adjustments are matters within the discretion of the operators themselves.
(b) The total subsidy payable under the Kindergarten Subsidy Scheme is estimated to be $45 million for the 1995-96 school year. This figure is based on the information submitted by kindergartens which have applied to join the Scheme in the 1995-96 school year. The estimate is subject to revision in September 1995 when the actual enrolment is known.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5775
(c) The Government will review the Kindergarten Subsidy Scheme in early 1996, taking account of the operational experience gained after the implementation of the Scheme in September 1995. In the review, the Government will consider, among other things, whether the cut-off point should be revised.
(d) At this stage, we are not able to provide information on the effect of raising entry qualifications for child care workers on the fees charged by child care centres. This is because the annual fee assessment exercise for individual child care centres will not be completed until next month. The approved fee for aided child care centres is set at the break-even fee as assessed by the Social Welfare Department. The impact will therefore depend on the financial position of individual child care centres. A Fee Assistance Scheme is in place to provide financial assistance to needy families to meet the child care centre fees.
Monopoly of Gas Company
9. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): According to the findings in a recent report of the Consumer Council, the Hong Kong and China Gas Company is the only public utility company in the territory which is not subject to any profit control. It is also pointed out in the report that the company monopolizes the market and faces no competition, resulting in the interests of the consumers being ignored. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of its response to the above-mentioned findings; and
(b) whether a regulatory mechanism will be set up to safeguard the interests of the consumers; if so, what the details are; if not, why not?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, the Consumer Council has published its report “Assessing Competition on the Domestic Water Heating and Cooking Fuel Market” on 6 July 1995. The objective of the study is to examine the market competitiveness and trade practices in the domestic water heating and cooking fuel supply industry. The Government will examine very carefully the recommendations in the report and a full response will be finalized by the end of this year. In the meantime, we welcome comments from the public and interested parties.
5776 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 Structural Safety of Public Housing Blocks
10. DR HUANG CHEN-YA asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council whether it is aware of the investigations being carried out by the Hong Kong Housing Authority and the Hong Kong Housing Society to identify structural problems in public housing estates of different ages under their management; if so, how many estate blocks have been investigated in the past three years, and how many have been found to be in need of repair because of concrete spalling and corroded steel bars problems; and what percentages they represent in estate blocks of various ages?
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING: Mr President, the Government monitors the maintenance and repair programmes of both the Housing Authority and the Housing Society.
Over the past three years, the Housing Authority has inspected the structural safety of 609 housing blocks built before 1981. Of these, 140 needed repair as a result of varying degrees of concrete spalling and corrosion of steel reinforcing bars.
The Housing Society inspects all its 162 housing blocks annually, and refers those which need further investigation to structural consultants. In the past three years, structural consultants inspected 29 blocks, all of which required varying degrees of repair for concrete spalling.
All the blocks were found to be structurally safe.
The number of blocks inspected for structural safety expressed as a percentage of the total number of blocks of the same age is shown in the table below:
Age of block % of blocks inspected by Housing Authority
% of blocks inspected by Housing Society
11-20 years 60 47
21-30 years 100 45
over 30 years 100 30
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5777 Voting by Electors Temporarily Away from Hong Kong
11. MR LEE CHEUK-YAN asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it has any plan to safeguard the right to vote of those electors who happen to be abroad on business or for pleasure on election day; and
(b) whether it will consider following other countries’ practice so that those electors who are abroad are able to vote at the local British consulates?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, the Administration is mindful of the need to take practical steps to ensure that electors are not deprived of the opportunity to vote because of some extraneous circumstances. Indeed, during a review of the electoral arrangements in 1992, we have looked into the desirability and feasibility of providing some form of absentee voting arrangement for electors who were temporarily away from Hong Kong on polling day. We concluded that the introduction of absentee voting for this category of electors was not justified in view of the cumbersome administrative arrangements and the potential for abuse. This conclusion was shared by the Legislative Council Select Committee on Legislative Council Elections. The Select Committee’s report was endorsed by this Council in July 1992. We do not detect any changes in circumstances since then which would justify re-opening this issue.
We therefore have no plan at present to adopt arrangements which would enable electors who are abroad to vote in person at designated venues in the countries where they are staying.
Lift Breakdowns in Public Housing Estates
12. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the monthly statistics on lift breakdowns in each of the public housing estates and Home Ownership Scheme estates in the last three years;
(b) of the general causes of the breakdowns and the average number of days needed to repair each breakdown;
5778 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
(c) of the number of lift contractors who are responsible for the installation and maintenance of lifts in public housing estates and Home Ownership Scheme estates, together with statistics on the breakdown of lifts serviced by each of the contractors in the past three years; and
(d) what measures have been put in place to reduce the chances of lift breakdowns?
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING: Mr President, monthly statistics on lift breakdown in public rental housing and Home Ownership Scheme estates in the last three years are at Annexes A to C.
The general causes of lift breakdown may be attributed mainly to equipment failure and vandalism. Depending on the seriousness of the fault to be corrected, the average repair time varies from less than two hours for minor faults which make up the majority of such breakdown, to not more than two days for general repairs and replacement of minor parts. Major overhaul and replacement work may take up to two weeks, but they constitute about 2% of breakdown incidents.
There are currently 10 lift installation contractors and 12 lift maintenance contractors. Statistics on lifts serviced by each contractor, together with the breakdown rate, are at Annex D.
The following measures are adopted by the Housing Department to reduce the frequency of lift breakdown:
(a) lift maintenance contractors are required to carry out statutory safety tests, weekly servicing work, and repair and replacement work when required;
(b) Housing Department staff inspect all lifts on a quarterly basis. Defects discovered are reported, and maintenance contractors are instructed to take follow-up action; and
(c) lift equipment is periodically modified and upgraded to enhance operational reliability and safety.
These measures have effectively reduced the frequency of lift breakdown from an average of one per lift per month in the early 1980s to 0.35 per lift per month in 1994-95.
5800 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 Growth Rate of Gross Domestic Product
13. MR HUANG CHEN-YA asked (in Chinese): According to the economic forecasts released by the Government on 26 May 1995, the growth rate in real terms of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) this year is estimated to stand at 5.5%. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the forecast growth rate for 1995 after discounting the 80% growth rate of expenditure on machinery and equipment in the public sector; and
(b) what percentage the government investment in the new airport project is estimated to represent in the GDP of 1995?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,
(a) Public sector expenditure on machinery and equipment accounted for only a very small proportion of the GDP. In 1994, this proportion was 0.4%. This component of expenditure is forecast to rise by 80% in real terms in 1995, due to envisaged substantial purchases of capital goods for the government operations and for the infrastructural projects. Coupling these two figures, the direct contribution to GDP growth rate in 1995 brought about by the forecast growth in this particular component is reckoned to be around 0.3 percentage point.
On the face of it, if the growth in this component were completely discounted, the forecast GDP growth rate for 1995 would become around 5.2%. However, there is a further factor involved. A predominant part of the machinery and equipment bought by the Government is known to be imported. Hence, if the growth in this component were to be discounted, the corresponding imports would have to be discounted as well. The net result, after taking into account the import factor, would be that the end effect on the forecast GDP growth rate should be much smaller than 0.3 percentage point, possibly virtually nil.
(b) For the financial year 1995-96, government investment in the airport and related projects, including expenditure from the Capital Works Reserve Fund, and equity injections into the Provisional Airport Authority and the Mass Transit Railway Corporation, amounts to about $32 billion. This represents about 3% of the forecast level of GDP in 1995.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5801 Delayed Provision of Footbridge Cover
14. MR SZETO WAH asked (in Chinese): At a meeting which I held with the Mass Transit Railway Corporation (MTRC) and the relevant Government departments regarding the provision of cover for the two footbridges connecting Lower Ngau Tau Kok Estate and Kowloon Bay MTR station, the MTRC agreed to bear part of the building costs of the cover while the departments concerned undertook to carry out the building work and set the dates for the commencement and completion of the project. However, there has been no sign of any work being carried out long after the work was due to commence. I have enquired about the progress and been given a new commencement date. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of:
(a) the reasons for the delay of the project;
(b) the exact date for the commencement of the work; and
(c) the date of completion of the project?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President,
(a) When the Highways Department first drew up the works programme for the provision of covers on the two footbridges, it was envisaged that construction could be undertaken by their term maintenance contractor. However, in developing the detailed design, it became clear that the contractual arrangements would need to take into account the requirement to provide adequate pedestrian facilities during construction, as well as safety measures to protect both pedestrians using the footbridges and the traffic below. Given the scope of the project, it was decided that it would be more appropriate to invite tenders so that the necessary contract conditions could be clearly specified. This has resulted in some delay. However, the tender procedures have now been completed.
(b) The scheduled date for commencement of works is 31 July 1995. (c) It is expected that the project will be completed by the end of January 1996.
5802 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 Promotion of Computer Knowledge
15. MR JAMES TO asked (in Chinese): With information technology becoming more readily available, industry and commerce nowadays rely heavily on computers in the conducts of business, and computer networks have also become important person-to-person, company-to-company and international communication channels. In this regard, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) what measures it has taken to promote computer knowledge and its usage, particularly in educating the public how to access and use the information available from databases worldwide through computer networks; and
(b) how much resources it plans to allocate for enhancing the knowledge of computer networks and its usage among the young people, so as to keep them abreast of the development of present-day society and have more opportunities to communicate with the international community?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) Hong Kong enjoys one of the most advanced and sophisticated telecommunications networks in the world. It can support the most advanced communication and computer services available, allowing companies and the general public to have access to databases worldwide. To promote the knowledge of computer and encourage its usage among the public, the Government has set an example by using computer networks in its services.
Many government departments have in recent years taken active steps to automate their operations, including the use of computer communication networks and access to databases where particular applications require them. Where such applications have interfaces with the public, the departments concerned will publish information on the availability of these facilities and their usage. Examples are:
- the bilingual laws information system which allows private legal practitioners access to Hong Kong ordinances, selected constitutional documents and subsidiary legislation using the information/law service provided by a local service company;
- a Land Registry Direct Access Service which enables customers to make, from their offices, on-line searches of the computerized land registers;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5803
- access to the Regional Council’s library catalogue through telephone lines (scheduled to be available by the end of 1995);
- interactive telephone response systems, implemented in several government departments, which allow the public to make enquiries to databases of departments concerned and to obtain various application forms.
In addition to the above, through Tradelink, a joint venture company formed between the Government and the private sector, a Community Electronic Trading Service will be launched in 1996. The objective of this service is to promote the use of Electronic Data Interchange and the concept of electronic commerce by over 100 000 small and medium size businesses in Hong Kong.
(b) Over the past decade, the Government has invested over $200 million in the school education service to help enhance the knowledge of computer networks and its usage among young people. Of this amount, about $110 million is being spent between 1993-94 and 1995-96 on providing every student in a computer practical class access to his own computer.
The subject of computer literacy, which covers the basic idea of computer networking, is taught in Secondary I to III classes. More computer subjects, which cover various types of networks and their operation, are provided in senior secondary and Sixth Form classes. Students gain hands-on experience in accessing computer networks in the sixth form computer classes.
In 1992, the Education Department launched a Sixth Form Computer Subjects Project to help schools introduce the computer subject at Advanced-Supplementary and Advanced levels. Each school joining this project has been provided with additional computer facilities including 31 sets of computers, a Modulator/Demodulator (MODEM) and other relevant hardware and software for accessing computer networks. So far, 77 schools have joined the project and another 48 schools will join this September.
Outside the curriculum, students of 23 schools have access to computer networks through participating in programmes provided by the City University of Hong Kong and the Chinese University of Hong Kong. Through these programmes, students are able to practise computer communications skills with other users of the networks, both local and overseas.
5804 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
Local tertiary and technical education institutions also offer computer science degree and sub-degree programmes as well as computer courses of various levels for students of other disciplines. Some of these institutions have also established extensive computer networking facilities for general use by students in campus.
Potentially Hazardous Installations
16. REV FUNG CHI-WOOD asked (in Chinese): Up to December 1993, the hazard assessments, planning studies and action plans in respect of 11 potentially hazardous installations (PHIs) in the territory had not yet been completed. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether any PHIs other than the 11 mentioned above have been built since then, if so, how many;
(b) of the 11 PHIs and new PHIs (if any), how many have gone through the three processes mentioned above; and when will the remaining PHIs be expected to complete these processes; and
(c) whether there are any PHIs which require certain action plans such as the provision of additional safety devices or relocation?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, the answers to the three parts of the question are as follows:
(a) Since December 1993, no new PHI has been built or put into operation.
(b) Of the 11 PHIs referred in the question, the Shell Industrial Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) Store in Sham Tseng has completed the hazard assessment (HA), planning study (PS) and action plan (AP). Of the remaining 10 PHIs, HA, PS and AP are in process, and are expected to be completed later this year or in early 1996.
(c) In addition to the above, three PHIs (Government explosives depot on Stonecutters Island, LPG store in Butterfly Estate and LPG store in Kwong Fuk Estate) will be relocated. Another PHI (LPG/air mixing plant in Tuen Mun Area 16) will be de-commissioned in September 1995.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5805 Parent-School Co-operation and Communication
17. MR TIK CHI-YUEN asked (in Chinese): As more emphasis is being placed on co-operation and communication between parents and schools, teachers often arrange gatherings with parents and invite them to participate in extra-curricular activities as well. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether the current pre-service and in-service training provided to teachers includes courses on training teachers how to enhance cooperation and communication with parents; if so, what the details are; if not, what the reasons are and whether the Government has any plan to organize such courses in the near future?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, a wide range of topics/modules relating to communication and co-operation between parents and schools are included in the current pre-service and in-service training courses. Details are as follows:
(a) Pre-service training
Course(s) Topic(s)
Full-time Bachelor of Education Programme (The Chinese University of Hong Kong)
Full-time Bachelor of Education Programme (University of Hong Kong)
Certificate of Education Programme (Hong Kong Institute of Education)
- Guidance Programmes for Students with Learning Difficulties
- Introduction to Guidance and Counselling in - Primary Schools
- Home, School and Community Relations - Sex Education in Primary Schools
- Children with learning difficulties
- Role of the Teacher
- Fundamental Principles of Education - Understanding the Hong Kong Educational Context
- Human Development (Childhood and Adolescence)
- Classroom Teaching Skills (interactive and inter-personal skills)
- Developing and Maintaining Productive Human Relationship in School
- Human Dynamics
- Culture and Society
- Personal Social Education
- Life Skills
5806 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 (b) In-service training
Course(s) Topic(s)
Part-time Bachelor of Education Programme (The Chinese University of Hong Kong)
Part-time Bachelor of Education Programme (University of Hong Kong)
- Guidance Programmes for Students with Learning Difficulties
- Introduction to Guidance and Counselling - Primary Schools
- Home, School and Community Relations - Sex Education in Primary Schools
- Children with learning difficulties - Supports systems
- Early childhood special education - Giftedness
- Transition from school
- The teacher as manager
- Schools and the family
Bachelor of Education - Home-School Relationship
In-service Programme (Hong Kong Baptist University)
Bachelor of Education Programme (Open Learning Institute of Hong Kong)
Initial and refresher teacher training courses for in-service teachers (Hong Kong Institute of Education)
- Parent Education
- Child Development and Classroom Learning
- Education and Society
- Role of the Teacher
- Fundamental Principles of Education - Understanding the Hong Kong Educational Context
- Human Development (Childhood and Adolescence)
- Classroom Teaching Skills (interactive and inter personal skills)
- Developing and Maintaining Productive Human
- Relationship in School
- Human Dynamics
- Culture and Society
- Personal Social Education
- Life Skills
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5807
Course(s) Topic(s)
Certificate Courses for
Guidance Teachers and
for Discipline Teachers
(Education Department)
Refresher Training
Course (Graduate) and
Principal Graduate
Master/Mistress Course (Education Department)
School Administration
courses for school
heads and senior
teacher (Education
Department)
Seminars/Teacher
Development Sessions/
Workshops run by the
Education Department
Delivery of Legal Services
- Home school relationships and co-operation - Consultative services for parents and teachers
- Communicating and interviewing parents - Helping parents develop positive attitudes and basic skills in disciplining their children - Positive communication between parents and the school
- Home School Co-operation
- Different roles of teachers and heads - Inter-personal communications - Handling complaints
- Working with people
- Understanding students from single parent families (for secondary school teachers) - Working with parents (for secondary school teachers)
- Orientation programme for Primary I pupils and their parents
Effective communication with parents (for primar school teachers)
18. MISS EMILY LAU asked: The Consultation Paper on Legal Services issued by the Attorney General Chambers (AGC) does not appear to have dealt with the interface between the Attorney General’s Chambers, the Judiciary, the Legal Aid Department and the legal profession, which interface is a key factor in ensuring that legal services are properly co-ordinated and managed. In view of this, will the Administration inform this Council whether there are plans to review the current arrangement in order to enhance the effectiveness and efficiency of the delivery of legal services?
5808 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, at present, there are many channels of communication through which issues requiring co-ordination can be discussed. These include:
(1) Court Users Committees in respect of civil proceedings, criminal proceedings and proceedings before tribunals;
(2) the Standing Committee on Legal Aid;
(3) the Judicial Studies Board;
(4) the Legal Practitioners’ Liaison Committee;
(5) ad hoc working parties and committees, such as the Working Party on Judiciary Administration, the committee on Computer Assisted Listing, and the Steering Committee on the Use of Chinese in Courts;
(6) consultation by the Administration on proposed new legislation affecting the legal system; and
(7) informal contacts between the institutions referred to in the question.
These many channels of communication are considered to be an effective way of co-ordinating legal services. If new problems emerge, they can either be dealt with through existing channels or by creating new committees or working parties. There are no plans to review these arrangements.
Premature Retirement of Senior Civil Servants
19. DR LAM KUI-CHUN asked (in Chinese): According to the information provided by the Civil Service Branch, 70% of the civil servants who retired prematurely in 1994/95, did so for reason of emigration. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether it has information to show that the monthly pension received by a senior civil servant at the assistant directorate level who retires with a service period of between 20 to 25 years is higher than the monthly remuneration of comparable senior civil servants in the major destinations of the territory’s emigrants (such as United States, Australia and Canada), resulting in more senior civil servants opting for premature retirement?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5809
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, a senior civil servant at the assistant director level, who retires prematurely under the Old Pension Scheme after 20 to 25 years of service, could receive a commuted pension gratuity of $1.7 million or $2.1 million and a monthly pension of $30,000 or $37,000 respectively if he decided to commute the maximum 25% allowable.
We do not have comparative rank and salary equivalent statistics for civil servants in the United States, Canada and Australia and we are therefore unable to provide any comparison between Hong Kong Civil Service pensions and salaries in the countries requested.
We do not believe that there is any correlation between the pensions of retired senior Hong Kong civil servants and the pay of senior civil servants in these countries nor that this is a factor influencing premature retirements from Hong Kong. In 1994-95, only five directorate officers’ premature retirement was approved on migration/family separation grounds.
Council for the AIDS Trust Fund
20. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Chinese): Regarding the operation of the Council for the AIDS Trust Fund, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the Council for the AIDS Trust Fund will consult the Advisory Council on AIDS (ACA) when it considers the priority of each project, bearing in mind that resources are limited and that one of the terms of reference of the ACA is to advise the Government on the policy relating to the control and prevention of AIDS; if not, why not;
(b) of the procedures adopted, and the time required, by the Council for the AIDS Trust Fund for examining and approving applications for funds; and
(c) whether the Government will consider appointing ACA members into the Council for the AIDS Trust Fund, so as to enhance communication between the two Councils; if so, when such arrangement will be made; if not, why not?
5810 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, the Council for the AIDS Trust Fund is appointed by the Governor. The Secretary for Health and Welfare is a member of the Council for the AIDS Trust Fund as well as receiving the advice of, and being represented on, the Advisory Council on AIDS (ACA). the Council for the AIDS Trust Fund considers the disbursement of ex gratia payments and project grants on the recommendation of its three subcommittees, each of which has a member who is also a member of the ACA. Whilst we believe that the present interface between the ACA and the Council for the AIDS Trust Fund is satisfactory, we shall continue to monitor the situation and will consider strengthening the relationship between the two bodies as appropriate.
The procedures adopted by the Council for the AIDS Trust Fund in dealing with applications have all along been intended to allow the maximum flexibility and responsiveness. Where urgent applications are received and a meeting cannot be held, such applications are dealt with wherever possible by circulation. The time required for examination and approval thus varies depending on the urgency of the application. However, generally at least one month is required from receipt of an application to approval and disbursement of the funds.
We are currently reviewing the arrangements for applications. Whilst the present flexibility is well-intentioned, it often poses a strain on the secretariat. Feedback from applicants suggests that many would prefer a more rigid and well-publicized schedule of meetings with clear deadlines for applications.
MOTIONS
INTERPRETATION AND GENERAL CLAUSES ORDINANCE THE CHIEF SECRETARY moved the following motion:
“That with effect from a day to be appointed by the Governor by notice in the Gazette -
(1) the functions of payee exercisable by the Registrar of the Supreme Court by virtue of -
(a) section 23 of the Bills of Sale Ordinance (Cap. 20);
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5811
(b) regulation 2 of the Bills of Sale (Fees) Regulations (Cap. 20 sub. leg.);
(c) sections 5(2) and 29(2) of the Legal Practitioners Ordinance (Cap. 159);
(d) rules 4(1) and 8(1) of the Admission and Registration Rules (Cap. 159 sub. leg.); and
(e) Schedules 1 and 3 pursuant to rule 3 of the Legal Practitioners (Fees) Rules (Cap. 159 sub. leg.),
be transferred to the Judiciary Administrator;
(2) section 23 of the Bills of Sale Ordinance (Cap. 20) be amended by repealing “Registrar” and substituting “Judiciary Administrator”;
(3) regulation 2 of the Bills of Sale (Fees) Regulations (Cap. 20 sub. leg.) be amended by repealing “Registrar” where it first appears and substituting “Judiciary Administrator”;
(4) sections 5(2) and 29(2) of the Legal Practitioners Ordinance (Cap. 159) be amended by repealing “Registrar” where it last appears and substituting “Judiciary Administrator”;
(5) rules 4(1) and 8(1) of the Admission and Registration Rules (Cap. 159 sub. leg.) be amended by repealing “Registrar” where it last appears and substituting “Judiciary Administrator”;
(6) items 1, 3 and 5 in Schedule 1 to the Legal Practitioners (Fees) Rules (Cap. 159 sub. leg.) and items 2 and 3 in Schedule 3 to those Rules be amended by repealing “Registrar” and substituting “Judiciary Administrator”;
(7) the functions exercisable by the Registrar of the Supreme Court by virtue of regulation 2 of the Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Regulations (Cap. 390 sub. leg.) be transferred to the Judiciary Administrator;
(8) regulation 2 of the Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Regulations (Cap. 390 sub. leg.) be amended by repealing “Registrar” and substituting “Judiciary Administrator”.”
5812 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 She said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
In July 1994, Members approved the creation of one permanent post of Judiciary Administrator at D8 level, to take over from the Registrar, Supreme Court as the controlling officer and administrative head of the Judiciary. As Members know, Ms Alice TAI Yuen-ying has taken up the appointment as the Judiciary Administrator.
Consequent upon the appointment of the Judiciary Administrator, it is necessary to transfer to her the former functions of the Registrar in connection with fees and charges and their proper collection, as provided for in section 23 of the Bills of Sale Ordinance; regulation 2 of the Bills of Sale (Fees) Regulations; section 5(2) and 29(2) of the Legal Practitioners Ordinance; rules 4(1) and 8(1) of the Admission and Registration Rules; items 1, 3 and 5 in Schedule 1 and items 2 and 3 in Schedule 3 to the Legal Practitioners (Fees) Rules; and regulation 2 of the Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Regulations.
The transfer of functions in these Ordinances, Regulations and Rules now requires the approval of this Council by resolution, in accordance with section 54A of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
CRIMINAL PROCEDURE ORDINANCE
THE CHIEF SECRETARY moved the following motion:
“That the Legal Aid in Criminal Cases (Amendment) (No. 2) Rules 1995, made by the Chief Justice on 10 July 1995, be approved.”
She said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
On 11 January, the Administration issued to Members a Legislative Council Brief on the legal aid legislation. Members were informed that the Governor in Council had agreed that the Legal Aid in Criminal Cases (Amendment) (No. 2) Rules 1995 should be made by the Chief Justice after the Legal Aid (Amendment) Bill 1995 had passed into law. Subsequently, the Bill was passed by this Council on 14 June and received the assent of the Governor on 15 June, and the Chief Justice made the Legal Aid in Criminal Cases (Amendment) (No. 2) Rules 1995 on 10 July.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5813
As explained in the Legislative Council Brief we issued to Members on 11 January, the Legal Aid in Criminal Cases (No. 2) Rules 1995 apply to the provision of criminal legal aid by the Legal Aid Department at the District Court level and above. These provide that this Director of Legal Aid may charge the new contribution rate as recommended by the Working Group which conducted a comprehensive legal aid policy review between February 1992 and July 1994, and they also clarify the effect of the issue of a legal aid certificate. These Rules were put to the Bills Committee to study the Legal Aid (Amendment) Bill 1995 and have had the support of the Members of the Bills Committee.
In accordance with sections 9 and 9A of the Criminal Procedure Ordinance, the Chief Justice has made the Legal Aid in Criminal Cases (Amendment) (No. 2) Rules 1995. These Rules now require the approval of this Council by resolution.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
CRIMINAL PROCEDURE ORDINANCE
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the following motion:
“That the Criminal Procedure (Record of Bail Proceedings) Rules, made by the Chief Justice on 6 July 1995, be approved.”
He said: Mr President, I move the resolution standing in my name in the Order Paper. The resolution is to the effect that the Criminal Procedure (Record of Bail Proceedings) Rules, made by the Chief Justice on 6 July 1995, be approved.
The Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Ordinance 1994 introduced a statutory right to bail and incorporated the law of bail into a single, comprehensive code. The Ordinance included a new provision requiring a record of all bail proceedings to be maintained in such manner and form as may be prescribed by rules and orders, and the record to be made available to an accused person and to counsel and solicitors to such extent and on such terms as may be prescribed.
The Chief Justice has now made rules providing for those matters. The rules provide that the record of bail proceedings should consist of a summary of all matters relevant to the proceedings, including any application for bail, the grounds of such application, the grounds of any objection to bail, the decision of the court, and the reasons for that decision. The rules also provide that the rules may be kept wholly or partly by computer, and that an
5814 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
extract of the record, in the form prescribed in the Schedule to the rules, shall be made available to the accused person and to counsel and solicitors engaged in the proceedings.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
TRADING FUNDS ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR WORKS moved the following motion:
“That -
(a) the assets comprising the public sewerage systems and sewage disposal facilities under the control of the Director of Drainage Services on 31 March 1995 as set out in the document titled “Inventory of Public Sewerage Systems and Sewage Disposal Facilities as at 31 March 1995” kept by the Director of Drainage Services (“the assets”) be appropriated to the Sewage Services Trading Fund established by resolution of this Council on 9 March 1994 (L.N. 155 of 1994);
(b) the assets shall not be disposed of unless the approval of the Financial Secretary has first been obtained.”
He said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name in the Order Paper.
On 11 March last year, in accordance with sections 3, 4 and 6 of the Trading Funds Ordinance, the Sewage Services Trading Fund was established in the Drainage Services Department.
The Sewage Services Trading Fund manages and accounts for the operation of sewage services. This involves a number of key tasks, in particular, the timely implementation of the High Priority Programme of capital works urgently needed to reduce pollution in the Harbour, and the administration of the new charges to cover the cost of operating sewage services.
Following the passing into law of the charging scheme for sewage services on 1 April this year, the Sewage Services Trading Fund became responsible for the collection of charges and the proper use of the revenue to fund the operating costs of providing sewage services. These services include the maintenance and operation of public sewerage systems and sewage disposal facilities, as well as the billing and collection of charges for sewage services levied in accordance with the Sewage Services Ordinance.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5815
For the Sewage Services Trading Fund to be fully functional under the provisions of the Trading Funds Ordinance and in line with the trading fund concept, it is necessary for the Director of Drainage Services as general manager of the trading fund to have stewardship of the public sewerage systems and sewage disposal facilities. This will allow the general manager to maximize the efficiency of asset management. It is to this end that I move this resolution to appropriate to the Sewage Services Trading Fund those assets which were operational at the time of the introduction of the scheme of charging for sewage services.
A detailed inventory of the assets to be appropriated is held by the Director of Drainage Services in his capacity as the general manager of the Sewage Services Trading Fund under section 6(2) of the Trading Funds Ordinance. This inventory is described in the resolution, which also provides that the assets cannot be disposed of without the prior approval of the Financial Secretary.
In future years, additional sewerage assets will be funded by the Government from the Capital Works Reserve Fund. I will introduce, on an annual basis, further resolutions for approval by this Council to appropriate these assets at cost when they are commissioned. These assets will then be depreciated in accordance with normal practice, but only where the assets are to be replaced out of the resources of the trading fund.
With the appropriation of assets, the Sewage Services Trading Fund will be on a firm footing with the general manager being able to provide an efficient and effective service to the public, government departments and other public bodies. I shall continue to report regularly to this Council on the operation of the trading fund.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
INTERPRETATION AND GENERAL CLAUSES ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR HOUSING moved the following motion:
“That the Housing Ordinance (Cap. 283) be amended -
(a) in section 26(1) by repealing “of $20,000” and substituting “at level 5”;
5816 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 (b) in section 26 (2) by repealing “$200,000” and substituting “$500,000”; (c) in section 27 by repealing “of $10,000” and substituting “at level 4”; (d) in section 27A by repealing “$200,000” and substituting “$500,000”; (e) in section 28(1) by repealing “of $2,000” and substituting “at level 3”; (f) in section 28(2) by repealing “of $2,000” and substituting “at level 3”; (g) in section 29 by repealing “of $2,000” and substituting “at level 3”.
He said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name in the Order Paper, which seeks approval for increasing the fines in the Housing Ordinance to restore their real value.
Section 100A(1) of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance provides that the Legislative Council may, by resolution, amend any ordinance so as to increase the amount of any fine specified in that ordinance.
The Criminal Procedure (Amendment) (No. 2) Ordinance last year has introduced a standard scale of fines, with six levels, for statutory penalties not exceeding $100,000. These levels of fine may be increased from time to time by a single order by the Governor in Council to reflect the effect of inflation in order to preserve the deterrent effect of the penalties.
Since the standard scale has not taken into account past inflation, a review of existing fines under the Housing Ordinance is necessary. We have completed the review. We now propose to increase the fines under five sections, namely, 26(1), 27, 28(1), 28(2) and 29, to the appropriate levels on the standard scale as indicated. Two other sections, namely, 26(2) and 27A, fall outside the standard scale. They deal with the more serious offences of giving false information in the purchase of subsidized home ownership flats and their unlawful alienation. We propose to increase the fines absolutely from $200,000 to $500,000, also to reflect the effect of inflation up to 1994.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5817 PHARMACY AND POISONS ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE moved the following motion:
“That the Pharmacy and Poisons (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulation 1995, made by the Pharmacy and Poisons Board on 26 June 1995, be approved.”
She said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name in the Order Paper that the Pharmacy and Poisons (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulation 1995 be approved.
The Pharmacy and Poisons Ordinance and its subsidiary legislation regulate, inter alia, the registration of pharmaceutical products.
The amendment Regulation, which was made by the Pharmacy and Poisons Board on 26 June 1995, seeks to clarify the procedures and requirements involved in changing the particulars of registered pharmaceutical products.
Currently, details such as the names and composition of pharmaceutical products are particularly required to be registered before these products are permitted to be sold or distributed. If approved, the amendment Regulation will make it clear that change of particulars of registered pharmaceutical products will be permitted only if the change does not affect the safety, efficacy and quality and does not involve those particulars which affect the identity of the products. The change, therefore, needs to be approved before it can be effected and before the product with changed particulars can be sold or distributed.
Such an arrangement is important for the proper control of pharmaceutical products because any change made to the particulars may affect the nature of the pharmaceutical products.
The amendment Regulation also seeks to add the identity card number, of a purchaser of pharmaceutical products including cough medicines as one of the required entries in the poisons book recording sales.
The purpose of this amendment is to facilitate the keeping of a fuller record when certain products such as cough medicines are sold. We believe that this arrangement will also help to discourage drug abuse by requiring potential drug abusers to disclose their identify card numbers.
5818 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
If the amendment is approved, we will ensure through appropriate publicity arrangements that the public, the profession and pharmaceutical associations concerned are aware of this new requirement and its scope, as well as the reasons for its introduction.
We will also continue to liaise with the pharmaceutical association over relevant details of this new requirement.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed.
DR LAM KUI-CHUN: Mr President, at a time when drug abuse is rampant, a motion to reduce accessability to drug abuse is welcomed. However, if promoted in full hue and cry without taking heed of the fall-out effect of the livelihood of practising pharmacists, this motion can be overdone. The problem lies in long selected inclusion of the entire Part I, First Schedule of the Poisons List under the purview of the motion. While only a tiny part of the drugs in Part I, Schedule I is prone to abuse, the motion requires registration of a purchaser’s identity card number with each transaction for all 67 drugs in the Schedule.
Some of the non-abuse drugs include hyocine butyl-bromide which is used for abdominal pain. One never goes high on this drug. Its overdose results in blurring of vision and dryness of mouth, a very unpleasant experience. Nobody will abuse a drug like this. Another one, Faktu, is a small meltable suppository used for haemorrhoids. It has no systemic action on the body. To abuse a meltable suppository one has to be really desperate even if he is gay.
The Administration should understand that a man in the street in Hong Kong at present is reluctant to show his identity card unless it is to a person with obvious authority such as a police officer. The practising pharmacist in a private pharmacy is generally considered by the public as only a helpful store-keeper. He has great difficulty convincing his client to produce his identity card. I am told that when requested to even sign their names in a record book for receipt of drugs, some customers simply walk off. Sale of many drugs in Part I, First Schedule of the Poisons List forms the bread and butter of the practising pharmacist. It is important that a motion aims to reduce accessability of abused drugs does not hit the non-abuse drugs which form the private pharmacist’s livelihood.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5819
I have already communicated to the Government that this motion should be restricted to abusable drugs. Before separating the abusable form the non-abusable drugs putting forth this motion to this Council is premature. I urge the Administration to honour its pledge in the third paragraph of the Secretary’s motion, that is, to continue to liaise the pharmaceutical associations over the relevant details of the new requirement.
I have suggested to the Government and the practising pharmacists that for the new requirement, Part I, First Schedule be separated into two lists and to restrict registration of identity card numbers to that which contains only abusable drugs.
Mr President, with that reservation, I support the motion.
MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr President, I support the motion which seeks to tighten up the control of drugs. However, while the stepping-up of control is welcomed, I wish to point out that in the initial consultation, the Government only approached the Pharmacy and Poisons Board for its views. No full and effective consultation of the people in the pharmacy profession was made. What I mean by “effective” is that there are only three pharmacists on the Pharmacy and Poisons Board while many practising pharmacists, including the other several professional organizations of the profession, were not given any chance to be consulted before the Bill was presented for discussion. We can see from the Government’s paper that the proposal concerned has already obtained the support and endorsement of the Pharmacy and Poisons Board. In fact, when I learned about this, considerable strong response was expressed within the profession that when the Pharmacy and Poisons Board was consulted, the views of the pharmacy profession were obviously not fully and effectively collected.
The motion consists of two parts. The first part requires that pharmacists install certain receptacles in their dispensaries, in which Part I poisons should be conspicuously locked up. In this connection, strong views were expressed by the profession. I wish to convey my thanks to the officers of the Health and Welfare Branch for their prompt action by holding a meeting with the pharmacy organizations a few days after receipt of their views, at which some operational issues were solved. They were indeed ready to accept advice. The second part is about the registration of the identity card numbers of people who purchase Part I poisons from pharmacists. As far as this is concerned, the pharmacy profession hopes that the Government will first of all strengthen publicity, because the lack of adequate publicity would likely give rise to clashes between the pharmacists and the purchasers. If the public were not aware of the legal requirement, clashes would probably be inevitable.
5820 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
At the same time, as Dr the Honourable LAM Kui-chun just mentioned, there are in fact many non-abusable drugs in Part I poisons. To include these drugs in the schedule is by no means our major motive in putting forth this motion. In so doing, I feel we have virtually done something which is unnecessary. It would also bring about some additional undue procedures to the profession in the sale of drugs.
Mr President, I sincerely hope that after the motion is passed, the Government would as soon as possible confirm the many operational details with the pharmacy profession before the legislation formally comes into effect, so that the motion will bring about the desired effect without creating any undue procedures.
Lastly, Mr President, I wish to put forth a comment and that is, I in fact do not believe that registration of the purchasers’ identity card numbers would really deter drug abuse. Nevertheless, Mr President, since the Government has put up such a proposal, I feel we should not raise objection and I too, am willing to support it so that it may be implemented. However, I do hope that the Government would conduct a comprehensive review soon to ascertain the effect. I also hope that the Government would review the list of Part I poisons and the schedules of the Pharmacy and Poisons Ordinance.
These are my remarks.
MR STEVEN POON: Mr President, I would like to declare that my wife is a registered pharmacist. She may or indeed may not benefit from the motion.
Thank you.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, I thank Dr the Honourable LAM Kui-chun and the Honourable Michael HO for their comments. I am aware that the Practising Pharmacists Association of Hong Kong has expressed the view that the requirement covers two broad ranges of substances. Having reviewed a number of counter proposals, I am satisfied that the proposal as it stands in the Order Paper is appropriate in the context of current exercise. However, in view of the concerns expressed by the Honourable Members, I will ask the Pharmacy and Poisons Board to review the list of substances in the First Schedule. And I reiterate my earlier assurance that we will continue to liaise closely with the Practising Pharmacists Association over details of the amendment Regulation and will arrange suitable publicity to explain the reasons for the amendment Regulation.
Question on the motion put and agreed to.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5821 SECURITY AND GUARDING SERVICES ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR SECURITY moved the following motion:
“That the notice, as annexed to this Motion, which specifies the criteria that a person must satisfy before the Commissioner of Police may, under section 14 of the Security and Guarding Services Ordinance, issue to him a permit to do security work, be approved under section 6(3) of that Ordinance.
SECURITY AND GUADING SERVICES ORDINANCE (Chapter 460)
(Notice under section 6(1)(b)(i))
Criteria for Issuing a Security Personnel Permit
Take notice that, pursuant to section 6(1)(b)(i) of the Security and Guarding Services Ordinance, the Security and Guarding Services Industry Authority hereby specifies the following criteria for issuing a permit under the said Ordinance. The criteria specified below in relation to a particular type of security work must be satisfied by a person before the Commissioner of Police may issue to him a permit under the said Ordinance to do that type of security work.
(A) Guarding Work Restricted to a ‘Single Private Residential Building’ (See Note 1)
(a) Age (i) The applicant must be 18 years of age and above on the date of application.
(ii) If the applicant or permit holder is 70* years of age or above, he/she must
produce a medical certificate (see Note 2)
issued by a registered medical
practitioner to certify that he/she is fit to
undertake the duties required every two
years.
5822 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
(b) Fitness The applicant must be of good health and is physically fit to perform the job. A
medical certificate (see Note 2) issued by
a registered medical practitioner may be
required if the Commissioner of Police
reasonably considers necessary.
(c) Good Character The applicant must be of good character having regard to his employment history,
criminal records (see Note 3) and other
relevant factors.
(d) Certification of Employment by
Prospective Employer
On his/her first application for a permit, the applicant must produce a a letter of employment from the prospective employer (see Note 4).
* With effect from 1.6.2001, this age criterion will be lowered to 65.
(B) Guarding Work for all Types of Premises and Properties
(a) Age The applicant must be 18 years of age or above. The upper age limit for engaging in this type of
security work is 65 years.
(b) Fitness The applicant must be of good health and physically fit to perform the job. A medical
certificate (see Note 2) issued by a registered
medical practitioner may be required if the
Commissioner of Police reasonably considers
necessary.
(c) Good Character The applicant must be of good character having regard to his employment history, criminal
records (see Note 3) and other relevant factors.
(d) Certification of Employment by
Prospective Employer
On his/her first application for a permit, the applicant must produce a letter of employment from the prospective employer (see Note 4).
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5823
(C) Guarding Work, the Performance of which Requires the Carrying of Arms and Ammunition
(a) Age The applicant must be 18 years of age or above. The upper age limit for engaging in this type of
security work is 55 years.
(b) Fitness The applicant must be of good health and physically fit to perform the job. A medical
certificate (see Note 2) issued by a registered
medical practitioner may be required if the
Commissioner of Police reasonably considers
necessary.
(c) Good Character The applicant must be of good character having regard to his employment history, criminal
records (see Note 3) and other relevant factors.
(d) Certification of Employment by
Prospective Employer
On his/her first application for a permit, the applicant must produce a letter of employment from the prospective employer (see Note 4).
(e) Arms Licence The applicant must possess a valid arms licence for the arms used on duty issued by the
Commissioner of Police.
(D) Installation, Maintenance and/or Repairing of a Security Device and/or Designing (for any particular premises or place) a System Incorporating a Security Device
(a) Age The applicant must be 18 years of age or above.
(b) Proficiency The applicant shall have received appropriate training or can demonstrate the capability and
proficiency (see Note 5) in the skills/technique
required in performing his/her job.
5824 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
(c) Good Character The applicant must be of good character having regard to his employment history, criminal
records (see Note 3) and other relevant factors.
(d) Certification of Employment by
Prospective Employer Notes
On his/her first application for a permit, the applicant must produce a letter of employment from the prospective employer (see Note 4).
(1) A single private residential building means an independent structure:
(a) covered by a roof and enclosed by walls extending from the foundation to the roof; and
(b) used substantially for private residential purpose; and
(c) with only one main access point.
(2) A standard medical certificate form is available from the Licensing Office of the Royal Hong Kong Police Force. Physical items subject to medical check include eyesight, mental state, balance and co-ordination, and hearing.
(3) The Commissioner of Police shall consider the nature of the criminal offence committed by the applicant and may refer the application to the Security and Guarding Services Industry Authority for decision. No person who is convicted of a criminal offence will normally be granted a permit if he/she is:
(a) within 2 years of release from a term of imprisonment; or (b) on probation or bound over.
(4) All watchmen currently registered under the Watchmen Ordinance are exempted from this requirement.
(5) The applicant shall attach copies of certificate of relevant technical training, or record of employment showing his/her experience in this type of security work.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5825
Mrs Miriam LAU Kin-yee
Chairman
for and on behalf of the Security
and Guarding Services Industry Authority”
He said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order paper.
Under section 6(3) of the Security and Guarding Services Ordinance, the criteria that a person must satisfy before the Commissioner of Police may issue a permit to him for engaging in security work, require the approval of this Council.
Mr President, the criteria for the permit are determined by an independent Security and Guarding Services Industry Authority set up under the Ordinance. The Authority, which is chaired by the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU, has set out four categories of security work for the purpose of issuing permits, namely:
(a) guarding work restricted to “Single Private Residential Buildings” only; (b) guarding work for all types of premises and properties;
(c) guarding work, the performance of which requires the carrying of arms and ammunition; and
(d) the installation, maintenance and repairing of a security device and designing a security device system for any particular premises or place.
The Authority has ensured that all of the proposed criteria ensure that the person is fit and proper for the relevant type of security work. The criteria include age, good health, good character, proficiency in the job, the requirement to hold a valid arms licence and recommendations by prospective employers. Different criteria may apply to different types of security work.
Members may recall that last year, during discussion of the Security and Guarding Services Bill at the Bills Committee of this Council, some Members were concerned that if a fixed upper age limit was imposed on all permit applicants, a considerable number of elderly watchmen would lose their jobs. Moreover, some Members argued that, since the responsibilities of watchmen in “single private residential buildings” were less demanding, in physical terms, than those in large housing and commercial complexes or industrial buildings, the former type of watchmen should not be subject to a fixed upper age limit. To address Members’ concern about the possible difficulties facing elderly watchmen if an
5826 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
upper age limit was imposed across the board, and given the generally sedentary nature of security duties in single private residential buildings, we agreed to propose to the Authority that there should not be a fixed age limit for security personnel working in such buildings. Rather, when such security personnel reach a certain age, they should be required to pass a regular medical examination to show that they are still fit to undertake their duties.
The Authority fully recognizes the concern of the Bills Committee about the impact of an upper age limit for security personnel. On the other hand, it is mindful of the need to upgrade the standard of security services. Taking into account these two factors, the Authority now proposes that, as an exception, there should not be a fixed upper age limit for security personnel working in “single private residential buildings”. However, when they reach the age of 70, they must pass a biennial medical examination in order to continue to work as watchmen in these buildings. Actually, the Authority considers that 65 years should be the appropriate age criterion for a medical examination in order to upgrade the service standard of this category of security work. However, in order to minimize the impact on the employment prospect of existing elderly watchmen in single private residential buildings, the Authority proposes the age criterion of 70 as a transitional arrangement, and lowering it to 65 after five years.
Some Members of the Legislative Council Subcommittee formed to study this motion were concerned that employment opportunities for the elderly watchmen would still be very limited. It appears that they may have some misunderstandings about the definition of “single private residential buildings”. I would therefore like to draw Honourable Members’ attention to the definition set out in the notice. A “single private residential building” is defined as an independent structure that is covered by a roof and enclosed by walls extending from the foundation to the roof, which is used substantially for private residential purpose, and has only one main access point. There is no limit on the number of households that these buildings may house, but the requirement of one main access point would ensure that these buildings can be adequately guarded by elderly watchmen. This definition applies even to individual blocks of large housing complexes.
Some Members of the Subcommittee were also concerned about the upper age limit of 65 for Category B work, that is to say, guarding work for all types of premises and properties. I trust Honourable Members would bear in mind that the purpose of the Ordinance is to improve the standards of security services which the public are entitled to expect. Security work under category B is very diverse. It covers all types of guarding work such as that in large commercial complexes, hotels, banks, shopping arcades, industrial buildings, and so on. Security personnel engaging in this type of work, generally require greater alertness, vigilance, and physical fitness than security personnel working in single private residential buildings. An upper age limit for Category B work is, therefore, necessary in order to ensure that these guards are capable of carrying out their duties.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5827
The Authority has also laid down other criteria. The prescribed medical examination will include tests on eyesight, hearing, mental state and balance and co-ordination, to ensure that only applicants who are medically fit for the work will be issued a permit. The Commissioner of Police will also assess the applicants’ employment history and criminal record, to ascertain whether he is of good character. Those who are required to carry arms and ammunition in performing their work must hold a valid arms licence issued by the Commissioner of Police. The proficiency criterion applies only to those handling security devices, who are required to provide a certificate of relevant training or a record of relevant work experience. Recommendations by prospective employers are not required for registered watchmen or those who are currently working in the security industry.
I understand also that during the discussion at the Subcommittee meeting, one Honourable Member was concerned that the checking of an applicant’s employment record by the police for good character assessment might be unfair to the applicant, as some unscrupulous employers might deliberately give poor reference to employees whom they disliked. I can assure Honourable Members that employment record refers only to whether the applicant has been rejected for an application for a permit or has his permit revoked. The police are not interested in an applicant’s performance appraisal record. Moreover there are other safeguards in the Ordinance. Under section 26 of the Ordinance, any person who is aggrieved by the decision of the Commissioner on a permit application may appeal to the Administrative Appeals Board.
To conclude, I would like to reiterate that the purpose of the proposed permit criteria is to upgrade the standard of service of the security industry. The criteria strike a good balance between upgrading the services of the security industry and addressing Members’ concern about the employment prospects of elderly watchmen. The Authority will monitor closely the impact of the criteria and make adjustments to the criteria as appropriate. Any such amendments will need to be laid before this Council for approval.
Mr President, with these remarks, I urge Members to support this motion. Question on the motion proposed.
5828 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would first of all declare my interests. I am the Chairman of the Security and Guarding Services Industry Authority (the Authority).
The spirit of the Security and Guarding Services Ordinance (the Ordinance) is to regulate the service quality of organizations providing security services and the security personnel, so as to safeguard the rights and benefits of consumers while at the same time introducing gradual improvement by balancing the interests of the industry and the public, taking into account the actual operating situation of the industry. The first and foremost task facing the Authority after its establishment in June this year was to lay down the criteria for the issue of security personnel permits. Towards this end, the Authority held six meetings and consulted the Police and the industry. As the Chairman of the Authority, I must stress that the proposed criteria before the Council today are based on the above-mentioned spirit of legislation. Different sets of criteria have been determined according to the various type of security work so as to ensure that the post applicants are suitable and competent for the jobs.
In developing the criteria, the Authority had the following major considerations:
(1) Comments of the Bills Committee on Security and Guarding Services Ordinance of the Legislative Council on the upper age limit
The Authority was well aware of the grave concern the Bills Committee had on the criteria concerning the upper age limit. This issue was raised when the Bill was being considered last year. The Authority proposed that no upper age limit should be imposed on security personnel working in single private residential buildings, but these people might be asked to go through a medical examination on a biennial basis once they reach a certain age (say, 70). It was after careful deliberation that the Authority put forth the proposal. We accepted that physical requirements for the security work of these buildings were less stringent than those for the other types of guards, such as guards of industrial and commercial organizations or armed guards. Accordingly, special waiver of the upper age limit was allowed on the condition that the post holders must pass a medical examination of their competency so as to make sure that they can meet the job requirements. The Authority is of the opinion that the existing proposal concerning upper age limit is in fact in conformity with the view expressed by the Bills Committee then.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995 5829 (2) Views of the industry
In making recommendations to the Authority, the Security Association and the Hong Kong Association of Property Management Agencies strongly demanded that more stringent criteria be laid down by restricting the definition of “single private residential building” to a building with no more than 20 domestic units with about 100 occupiers. In other words, people aged above 65 could work as guards only in this type of small building. The Authority appreciated the aspiration of the industry to enhance the quality of its security guards, but considered that improvement should be introduced gradually to avoid too drastic a change to the way of management of private residential buildings. Accordingly, the definition of “single private residential building” laid down by the Authority does not impose any restriction on the number of flats, while the scope of security work and the physical requirements of guards are based on the residential use and the existence of only one single exit of the building. The spirit of such a definition is not to encourage holders of type A permits, that is, people aged above 65, to work in large private estates. Nevertheless, there is no harm in recruiting type A permit holders to take care of the security work within the premises while leaving the inspection of other public areas such as podiums, gardens, carparks and so on to type B permit holders if residents of these private estates so wish. As consumers, the residents should have the right of choice.
(3) The problem of unemployment
In its efforts to upgrade the service quality of the security industry, the Authority was mindful of the actual social situation in Hong Kong. Hiring the aged as watchmen has been a well-established practice and little did we hope that these old folks who are still physically capable should suddenly be thrown out of employment.
At the same time, we believed that our proposed criteria would not bring about considerable increase in unemployment because of the following reasons. The number of unemployed estimated by the trade unions has in fact far exceeded the actual figure.
Firstly, most of the residential buildings in Hong Kong fall into the category of “single private residential building” and as long as they pass the medical examination, guards reaching the age of 70 may continue to assume type A security work in these premises.
Secondly, those who are taking up type B work, that is, guards of the various industrial and commercial premises, may switch to single private residential buildings once attaining the age of 65.
5830 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 26 July 1995
Moreover, the Authority will, in accordance with section 33 of the Ordinance, advise the 110 000 holders of watchman permit to apply for the new permit by batches. The entire process will take about five years, with the more senior ones being handled at the last stage. During the transition, permit holders aged above 65 may still take up type B security work.
I must emphasize that the onus of the Authority is not to guarantee that all security workers my retain their present job or position but to set up an examination system to ensure that these people are physically fit and capable of carrying out their duties. We cannot force ourselves to accept the situation in which a person is allowed to take up a job he is not competent for simply because this would cause unemployment. Nevertheless, the impact on the employment of aged watchmen has already been reduced to the minimum through the above arrangements.
At a meeting of the Subcommittee set up to consider the motion, the Honourable LEE Cheuk-yan recommended the lifting of the upper age limit for type B security work, meaning that people aged above 65 who have passed the physical examination should be allowed to work as guards in all industrial and commercial premises, shops, gold and jewellery shops, banks and so on. This recommendation was considered unacceptable by the Authority. As I just mentioned, it was already an exception not to impose upper age limit on guards of single private residential buildings. Such an exception was specially granted by the Authority because it was believed that the security work of single private residential buildings was on the whole less demanding in terms of physical fitness. Coupled with the restriction of one major exit, this should enable aged guards to handle the job efficiently. Waiving the upper age limit for type B security work would be an exception within exception. The public expect the Authority to improve the quality of the security industry, thereby providing protection for their personal safety and properties. Further relaxation of the upper age limit would be regarded as a retrogression by the public and it is likely that the industry would be greatly disappointed. This would run counter to the spirit of the Ordinance in improving the security service.
I must reiterate that the proposed criteria were the result of the Authority’s full deliberation and careful balance of the interests of the security sector and consumers. If the criteria are approved, the Authority may upgrade the quality of the security personnel of the industry through the following measures:
Firstly, to ensure the guards’ capability and efficiency through laying down requirements on employment and physical examination as well as standards on good conduct and skilfullness of the job;
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Secondly, to bring within regulation the large number of people who are now working as guards without permits. Non-permit holders will be prosecuted;
Thirdly, to step up supervision of security guards through police task force. Anyone who is found to be neglectful of his duties will have his permit cancelled;
Fourthly, to liaise with the industry and vocational training council on the promotion of training for security personnel;
Fifthly, to encourage and assist the industry in preparing a code of practice for security guards; and
Sixthly, to promote publicity on the spirit of the Ordinance, procedures on the issue of permits and the importance of security work among members of the public, especially building management committees, owners’ corporations, mutual aid committees and so on.
Mr President, the proposed criteria presented to the Council today and the above areas of work of the Authority will be subject to regular review to seek improvement in the light of actual experience. The next task of the Authority is to draft the conditions for issue of licence to security and guarding services companies in a bid to perfect the monitoring mechanism. The Authority plans to begin to accept applications for guard permits and company licences at the end of this year, with the grace period expiring at the end of May 1996. If the proposed criteria were not approved, the process of licence issue would be greatly delayed, making it impossible for the applications to be handled before the expiry of the grace period. This would definitely give rise to confusion and possibly result in operation without licence. This is hardly something we want to see.
Mr President, with these remarks, I earnestly beseech Members to support the motion.
MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr President, a Subcommittee under my chairmanship was formed in 14 July 1995 to study the resolution. The Subcommittee has held one meeting with the Administration and has also received a written submission from the Security Association after the meeting. The Subcommittee has divided views on whether to support or object the motion because there are different opinions on whether an upper age should be set for security personnel on guarding work in respect of all types of premises and properties, that is, type B of the security work annexed to the motion.
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The Honourable LEE Cheuk-yan and I hold the view that no upper age limit should be set in the legislation for type B security personnel because we believe that the emphasis should rest on their physical fitness and work attitude instead of on age. The security company should be given the discretionary power to employ a security personnel of and above the age of 65 as long as he has passed a medical examination and such examination will be made at the age of 65 and after on a biennial basis.
However, the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU, who is also speaking on behalf of the Security and Guarding Services Industry Authority in her capacity as the Chairman of this Authority, expresses the view that there is a need to spell out the upper age limit in order to regulate and improve the quality of service of the security industry which is the spirit of the Ordinance. The Subcommittee has noted that the age criterion of 65 is taken for type B security work because the same criterion is adopted by a majority of security companies for their security personnel. The Subcommittee also notes that the Security and Guarding Services Industry Authority intends to review all criteria annexed to the motion one year after their implementation.
The Subcommittee cannot come to a consensus about this issue and in the end the parties for and against it have agreed that the motion should be debated by Honourable Members today.
There are several other issues which the Subcommittee has discussed. I shall briefly mention two of them. Firstly, the Subcommittee has noted that the age criterion for biennial medical examination for type A guarding work restricting to a single private residential building will be lowered from 70 years old to 65 years old in five years’ time and the rationale is to tie in with the proposal that 65 is the upper age limit for security personnel for type B security work. The ultimate objective for lowering the age criterion is to improve the quality of service of the security industry.
Secondly, the Subcommittee has discussed the issue of employment history being regarded as one factor for determining whether an applicant for security personnel permit is of good character. It also notes this is already an existing requirement under the Watchmen Ordinance, and the Security and Guarding Services Ordinance has provided a safeguard by having allowed an appeal channel against the decision of the Commissioner of Police for refusing to issue a security personnel permit. However, Mr LEE Cheuk-yan is still concerned that this may provide an opportunity for the employer to threaten an employee with a bad performance report if the employee complains against the employer for non-compliance of his obligations under the Employment Ordinance, for example, denying the employee paid leave to which he is entitled. As time was running short, we were unable to discuss this issue with the Police at a meeting with only Security Branch officers present. Therefore, Mr LEE Cheuk-yan will discuss with the Police to directly follow and handle it. Mr LEE Cheuk-yan will be separately pursuing the issue.
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Mr President, as the Chairman of the Subcommittee, I have tried to give a fair version of what have been discussed during the meeting. Now in the capacity as a Member of the Democratic Party, I would like to put forth my view and that of the Democratic Party in respect of the Ordinance.
Regrettably, such a resolution is being put forth near the close of the Legislative Council session. As a result we only have one chance to hold discussion with the relevant government authorities and we are unable to meet the relevant Security Association for consultation. Also, we are unable to discuss many issues. Last year, when this Security and Guarding Services Bill was tabled at this Council, I was elected Chairman of the Bills Committee. It can be said that the speeches by the Secretary for Security and Mrs Miriam LAU just now have stated some of the conclusions by the then Bills Committee. However, I would like to make a few clarifications here.
Firstly, the major concern of the then Bills Committee was that once the Bill was passed, it was tantamount to issuing a blank cheque to the now Security and Guarding Services Industry Authority in that it could set some criteria on which the Legislative Council would have no say. Therefore, the Government finally agreed to table it in the form of subsidiary legislation and resolution to this Council for examination. As the Government stressed then that the future Security and Guarding Services Industry Authority which has come into being now would be an independent management authority, it did not want to see the then Bills Committee to set some detailed criteria for that independent management authority though the Government at that time shared the Councillors’ worries, that is the worries that some old watchmen would become unemployed as a result of the passage of the Bill or the criteria passed today. Thus, we reached a consensus at that time. Our concensus was that when the future management authority laid down the criteria, the 70-year-old personnel would be allowed to continue with this kind of work so long as they had a medical examination on a biennial basis and passed the medical examination.
In addition, during our discussion at that time, we suggested that apart from taking single private residential buildings as a determining factor, the most explicit and clear way would be to take work nature as a criterion. If the work nature requires the personnel to be armed for escort and guarding duties, the Bills Committee and the Democratic Party agree that there should be more rigid control in place. However, as for some buildings which just employ watchmen to keep watch and no further security duties are involved, we are of the view that this type of security personnel should not be subject to rigid control and the buildings should be allowed to employ those watchmen. The then suggestion also hoped that the Government and the management authority which has come into being now would take work nature as the criterion. As the Government repeatedly stressed that it did not want the then Bills Committee to pre-empt the criteria laid down by the independent authority, we at that time therefore only agreed to put forth some suggestions for
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consideration by the future management authority (which has come into being now). However, though they are suggestions, it was our consensus at that time that the Bills Committee and the Government would come to a consensus. Regrettably, the criteria put forth today obviously cannot fully implement the consensus reached between the Bills Committee and the Government. At present, the management authority sets 65 as the upper age limit for the type B security personnel and the age criterion for medical examination for type A security personnel would be lowered from 70 to 65 in five year’s time. These two points are different from the decision made by the then Bills Committee. I feel very sorry in this respect.
As the Legislative Council could not amend this resolution, our choice is to either support or oppose it. If we veto the relevant criteria, it will be referred back to the management authority chaired by Mrs Miriam LAU because only it has the right to make the amendment. Then it will be passed back to this Council for examination and passage. Thus, as the Democratic Party cannot accept that the upper age limit provision in the Bill was made aftering accepting the suggestion of the management authority, the Democratic Party has no alternative but to oppose this resolution today hoping that it would be passed back to the management authority for re-deliberation and then to this Council for passage. Though Mrs Miriam LAU in her speech just now stressed that if this Council vetoes this resolution today, the relevant licensing work would be delayed, I believe that this is not the responsibility of this Council but that of the Government. Why did the Government, as it always does, pass the Bill or resolution to this Council at so late a stage and then before we are able to fully discuss it, ask us to pass such a bill that cannot fully take care of the benefits of all parties?
Therefore, Mr President, the Democratic Party will vote against it.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to ask Councillors to oppose the above motion in the attempt to urge the Security and Guarding Services Industry Authority to re-define the licensing criteria for security personnel.
Before I put forth my reasons, I would like to talk about my feelings. Just as what was said in a radio programme “Same Day in the Past”, every time it came to the last sitting of a Legislative Council session, there was always a discussion about the “rice bowls” of workers. I remember at the final sitting of the Legislative Council session on 17 July 1991, there was an Ordinance about the certificate of origin by which the knit sewing procedure was allowed to be done in the Mainland. I said at that time that such an act would surely smash the rice bowls of the workers. Facts show that four years later, Hong Kong workers were unable to find any more knit sewing work. That happened at the last Legislative Council sitting four years ago. At this being the last Legislative Council sitting this year,
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our discussion is also related to the “rice bowls” of the workers. I hope that the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU would not say that I have exaggerated the influence of it all. I agree that the impact this time would surely not be as grave as that four years ago because the elderly security personnel could at least do type A work. However, to some extent, this definitely would affect the elderly or old aged personnel in the security and guarding industry.
I would like to put forth my reasons for objection in two ways. Firstly on the ground of justifications. In this respect, I personally feel that the management authority is under the assumption that the performance of the elderly personnel is certain to be bad. It is this assumption that leads to the setting of an upper age limit. I would like to ask you all whether this assumption is correct. Is the service of elderly people definitely poor? Should the quality of service be judged from the age angle or assessed from a more important perspective of physical fitness? Frankly speaking, I think that I may not be as fit as many elderly security personnel aged 65 and above. I am not qualified for such work but they are competent for it and have been doing it all the time. Why should we put limitations on them?
In fact, medical examination is the only scientific assessment basis and age should not be taken as a criterion. This is the first reason why I object to setting 65 as the upper age limit for this type of security work. I am of the view that only physical examination should be taken as the criterion.
As for the second reason, the Government and the industrial and commercial sectors always mention “free market” operation and it should be of no exception this time. Why do we not let the free market make the decision? What puzzles me is that just now Mrs Miriam LAU in relaying the opinions of the Security Association said that the requirements were not strict enough. At present the Security Association is responsible for recruiting the security personnel and if they see the need for more stringent requirements, they could let the employers decide whether or not to employ the elderly security personnel. Why is limit set by legislative means? Why are legislative means needed to limit the age of the personnel employed by the employers? If the employers think that people at the age of 65 and above are still competent and their service is satisfactory, why do wenot let them continue to employ them? Why is there a need to resort to legislative means instead? I think that this is the second area that is not proper as far as justifications are concerned. I think that in this matter the employer should be given a free hand to make his own decision. If the employer’s decision leads to poor service, the residents could always make a complaint. Now, even though there is legislative control, there is no guarantee that those employees below the age of 65 would provide good service because I always think that age should not be taken as a criterion.
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From the second angle, I hope that you would view it from the social humanitarian point of view. By a conservative estimate, there are at present about 20 000 security personnel over the age of 65. Will the criterion have no effect on these people over the age of 65 at all? In fact, even if arrangements are made for them to do type A work, all personnel over the age of 65 would be confined to type A work, meaning they cannot work in factory buildings, banks or shopping malls as “watchmen”. They are then confined to work in the single private residential buildings. When more than 20 000 people all try to seek work in those buildings, can they find jobs? Also, if all these 20 000 more people are confined to do this type of work, you can imagine the great impact it has on the wage level. As the scope is limited, the supply will increase and wages will be forced to go on a down turn. If the scope of work is limited in this way, 20 000 people presently in post will be affected. Let us not forget that of the 20 000 people, those who are now around 60 will be stopped from continuing with their jobs on reaching the age of 65. There is one more problem which I do not know how to explain. Take for instance someone who is at present 63 years old. After two years, he could not work any more. Theoretically, he is not entitled to any compensation. Even if his case is treated as dismissal, he would still not be entitled to long service pay because one must complete five years’ service before one is entitled to it. As the employee cannot obtain a permit, the case could not be treated as dismissal. I am not sure whether it can be treated as dismissal in these circumstances. This is also a grey area. However, we are not going to discuss about this today. The issue of dismissal needs further deliberation in the future. But, this would have influence on those people who are now over 60 but below 65 years of age because if they could not obtain the required permits, they have to stop work at that age. In that way, another employment outlet for the elderly employees is blocked.
In addition, I would like to talk about another humanitarian issue. For people over the age of 65, we all know that apart from social security allowance, nothing else is offered in Hong Kong. As there is no retirement scheme or retirement protection, they have to continue working. If Hong Kong has a perfect retirement scheme, why do we want our elderly people to go out and work? We do not want to see this and I personally do not want elderly people to work. The problem is that we have no retirement scheme now. Even if we pass the Mandatory Provident Fund Scheme today (not the old age allowance scheme), how long will it take to put it into effect? This is of no use to the present generation of old people. On one hand we have no retirement scheme and on the other hand we resort to legislative measures to block the employment outlet for the old people. Can this be considered as a reasonable measure? If the old age allowance scheme is implemented, I would not say any more. I would then say that it is not too much a problem because it has little effect on them. But there is nothing now and it is a major problem with tremendous effects. Thus I hope that you, on the basis of the two reasons and the two humanitarian grounds I just mentioned, will vote against it together.
No comments yet.
Private notes are available after approval.