ENG-1995-05-31 — Page 1

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4059 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, 31 May 1995

The Council met at half-past Two o'clock

PRESENT

THE PRESIDENT

THE HONOURABLE SIR JOHN SWAINE, C.B.E., LL.D., Q.C., J.P.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY

THE HONOURABLE MR MICHAEL LEUNG MAN-KIN, C.B.E., J.P.

THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY

THE HONOURABLE SIR NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, K.B.E., J.P.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.

THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH

THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.

4060 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.

THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP

THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI

THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG

THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG

REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD

THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE

THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA

DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA

THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, O.B.E., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN

DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING

THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT

THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING

THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG

THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4061 THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN

DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM

THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN

DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI

THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO

THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK

THE HONOURABLE ALFRED TSO SHIU-WAI

THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN

ABSENT

THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN

DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.

IN ATTENDANCE

MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, C.B.E., J.P.

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS

THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL SZE CHO-CHEUNG, I.S.O., J.P.

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE

MR HAIDER HATIM TYEBJEE BARMA, I.S.O., J.P.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT

4062 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

MRS KATHERINE FOK LO SHIU-CHING, O.B.E., J.P.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE

MR PETER LAI HING-LING, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY

MR BOWEN LEUNG PO-WING, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS

MRS ELIZABETH MARGARET BOSHER, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES

MISS JACQUELINE ANN WILLIS, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER

THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG

THE DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL

MR LAW KAM-SANG

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4063 PAPERS

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject

Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No.

Merchant Shipping (BCH Code) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 184/95

Merchant Shipping (IBC Code) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 185/95

Merchant Shipping (Control of Pollution by

Noxious Liquid Substances in Bulk) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 186/95

Electoral Provisions (Procedure) (Geographical

Constituencies) (Amendment) Regulation 1995...................................... 187/95

Legislative Council (Electoral Provisions)

(Procedure) (Functional Constituencies and

Election Committee Constituency) Regulation ....................................... 188/95

Maximum Scale of Election Expenses (Legislative

Council) Order 1995 ................................................................................ 189/95

Antiquities (Excavation and Search) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 190/95

Building (Administration) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 191/95

Building (Oil Storage Installations) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 192/95 Immigration (Amendment) Regulation 1995................................................... 193/95 Marriage Reform (Fees) (Amendment) Regulation 1995................................ 194/95 Registration of Persons (Amendment) Regulation 1995 ................................. 195/95 Ferry Services (Amendment) Regulation 1995................................................ 196/95

4064 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

Road Traffic (Driving Licences) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 197/95

Road Tunnels (Government) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 198/95

Road Traffic (Parking) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 199/95

Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 200/95

Road Traffic (Registration and Licensing of Vehicles)

(Amendment) Regulation 1995................................................................ 201/95

Road Traffic (Village Vehicles) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 202/95

Import and Export (Fees) (Amendment)

Regulation 1995 ....................................................................................... 203/95

Insurance Companies (Miscellaneous Fees)

Regulation ................................................................................................ 204/95

Births Registration (Special Registers)

Ordinance (Amendment of Fifth Schedule)

Order 1995 ............................................................................................... 205/95

Deaths Registration (Special Registers)

Ordinance (Amendment of Fourth Schedule)

Order 1995 ............................................................................................... 206/95

Marriage Ordinance (Amendment of Second

Schedule) Order 1995 .............................................................................. 207/95

Clubs (Safety of Premises) (Exclusion)

(Amendment) Order 1995........................................................................ 208/95

Official Languages (Alteration of Text)

(Prevention of Bribery Ordinance) Order 1995 ....................................... 209/95

Road Traffic Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule 3)

Order 1995 ............................................................................................... 210/95 Library (Regional Council) (Amendment) Bylaw 1995 .................................. 211/95

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4065

Insurance Companies (Amendment) (No.3)

Ordinance 1994 (76 of 1994) (Commencement)

Notice 1995.............................................................................................. 212/95

Security and Guarding Services Ordinance

(97 of 1994) (Commencement) Notice 1995 ........................................... 213/95

Occupational Deafness (Compensation) Ordinance

(21 of 1995) (Commencement) Notice 1995 ........................................... 214/95

Radiation (Control of Radioactive Substances)

(Amendment) Regulation 1995 (L.N.153 of 1995)

(Commencement) Notice 1995 ................................................................ 215/95

Radiation (Control of Irradiating Apparatus)

(Amendment) Regulation 1995 (L.N.154 of 1995)

(Commencement) Notice 1995 ................................................................ 216/95

Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)

(Prevention of Bribery Ordinance) Order ................................................ (C)39/95

Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)

(Corrupt and Illegal Practices Ordinance) Order ..................................... (C)40/95

Sessional Papers 1994-95

No.89 — Audited Statement of Accounts of the Hong Kong

Rotary Club Students' Loan Fund

for the year ending 31 August 1994

No.90 — Audited Statement of Accounts for the

Sing Tao Foundation Students' Loan Fund

for the year ending 31 August 1994

No.91 — Audited Statement of Accounts of the Language Fund for the year ending 31 August 1994

No.92 — Report on the Administration of the Fire

Services Welfare Fund

for the year ended 31 March 1994

No.93 — Revisions of the 1994-95 Estimates Approved by the Urban Council during the

Fourth Quarter of the 1994-95 Financial Year

4066 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Regulation of Container Terminal Operators

1. MR LEE WING-TAT asked (in Cantonese): Mr President, regarding the operation of container terminal companies in Kwai Chung, will the Government inform this Council of the following:

(a) the anticipated growth in freight transport and volume of container throughput in the next three years;

(b) whether measures have been put in place to prevent the operation of container terminal companies from becoming an oligopoly;

(c) whether, as more and more mid-stream container handling operators have been taken over by container terminal companies, there are any measures to prevent those companies from further monopolizing the market; and

(d) whether a profit control scheme or other regulations, modelled on the operation of the Hong Kong Air Cargo Terminals Limited, will be formulated to regulate and monitor existing and future container terminal companies?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, the total volume of freight transported through our port is forecast to grow from 151 million tonnes in 1995 to 177 million tonnes in 1997. This represents a projected annual average growth rate of some 8%. During the same period, container throughput is forecast to grow from some 13 million Twenty-Foot Equivalent Unit (TEU's) to 16 million TEU's. This represents an annual growth rate of 11%.

It is our policy to promote competition in the port. The four existing container terminal operators at Kwai Chung compete for business with each other, with some 20 mid stream container operators and with other ports open to international trade in the vicinity of Hong Kong — for example, Yan Tian, She Kou and Chi Wan. In this regard, Hong Kong is virtually unique, since most major ports are operated largely by single conglomerates, which compete for business only with other ports.

In the interests of promoting still greater competition we have encouraged, and will continue to encourage, new operators to participate in the port, as and when opportunities arise. For example, the Chinese State shipping line (COSCO) is a partner in the development of Container Terminal No.8. Our proposals for the development of Container Terminal No.9 would also

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4067

have the effect of bringing in new operators and increasing competition in the port. This is the best way of preventing the emergence of a cartel or oligopoly.

While there is a degree of cross-ownership of mid-stream container handling companies by the major container terminal operators, there is no evidence to suggest that there is not still vigorous competition between the two sectors and between the mid-stream operators themselves. An important reason for this is that mid-stream operators offer a different type of service to shippers, both in terms of cost and quality. As a result, they tend to cater mainly for inter-Asia traffic, while the terminals serve mainly the inter-continental market.

Mr President, I know there are concerns among some shippers and exporters and some Members of this Council that, if terminal charges in our port become too high they may impact on the competitiveness of Hong Kong exports and may drive business to other ports. It is these concerns, I believe, which are prompting calls for price or profit controls to be applied to the terminal operators.

To these concerns I would respond as follows. As the Administration has said on many occasions, including in this Council, regulation is always a poor substitute for genuine market competition. The only justification for regulatory intervention would be, if we were convinced, that market forces were not operating sufficiently to protect the interests of consumers and to promote the necessary degree of economic efficiency.

Let us look at the facts. No other major port in the world offers such an extensive range of competitive cargo handling services. While charges at our terminals are somewhat higher than ports in the region, they are comparable with those in Japan, the United States and Europe. More importantly, the total cost of a ship's call into Hong Kong's port remains highly competitive. This is principally because ship turn-around times at our ports are second to none — and the less time a ship spends lying idle in port the more cost effective is the operation overall.

Far from driving away business, the effeciency of our port services has contributed to an average annual growth in port throughput of 13% in the last decade and an average annual increase of 12% in the number of calls by ocean-going vessels.

Against this background, Mr President, I see no case for regulatory intervention in the operation of our container terminals at this time.

MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, among the present container terminal companies, the Hong Kong International Terminals Limited has more than 50% of the market share. According to some sources, that

4068 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

company is taking over many of the mid-stream container handling operators. I would like to ask the following two questions:

(i) Does the Economic Services Branch have information about the percentage of mid-stream container hardling operators owned by the major container terminal companies; and

(ii) Why is the freight in Hong Kong higher than that of Kaohsiung and Singapore?

PRESIDENT: Take one question at a time, Secretary.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Thank you, Mr President. On the first part of the question, as I said in my main answer, Mr President, we are aware that there is a degree of cross-ownership between some of the major container terminal operators and mid-stream operators. Having said this, the majority of mid-stream operators are still independently owned. About 40% of mid-stream operators, we believe, are controlled in part by the existing container terminal operators. But as I said earlier, there is still vigorous competition between the mid-stream operators themselves and with the terminals.

PRESIDENT: The second question, do you wish it repeated?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Yes, please, Mr President. PRESIDENT: The second question, Mr LEE.

MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, compared with the major container terminals in Asia, the terminal charges in Hong Kong are higher than Kaohsiung and Singapore. Can the Secretary for Economic Services tell us why our charges are higher than Kaohsiung and Singapore if Hong Kong is a competitive container terminal?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, I think terminal charges are based on a number of factors. One of the important factors relates, of course, to the development costs of the terminal and we believe this may be one of the factors which affects our charges. Having said that, the picture is not totally clear cut. There are very different levels of charges on different freight routes throughout the world and in some aspects, Hong Kong charges are very

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4069

competitive, even with some ports in the region, whereas on others there is more of a discrepancy, as I indicated in my main answer.

MR PETER WONG: Mr President, I see from my copy of the typed script that the forecast figures as well as the projected annual growth rate has been scaled downwards in manuscript. Can the Secretary confirm that our overall growth rate is also being scaled back?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, I am sorry if there were last minute adjustments made to the text but we wanted the figures to be as accurate as possible. We are not seeking to scale back growth rate at all. What we are doing is working with the best estimates that we have of forecast throughput rate, that is, forecast throughput in the port as a whole and for the container terminals.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: I wonder whether the Secretary will inform this Council whether the Government has taken any measures at all in the last decade to actually prevent — and I emphasize "prevent" — the entry of new operators in the bidding system for container terminal facilities in Hong Kong?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: As far as I am aware, Mr President, the answer to that question is a resounding no. On the contrary, as I said in my main answer, we do, whenever opportunities arise, encourage new operators to come into the port.

Retired Senior Government Officials Taking up Private Employment

2. MR SZETO WAH asked (in Cantonese): Mr President, with regard to the taking up of employment in the private sector by the former Commissioner of Police immediately after leaving office, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) whether it will review the existing legislation and procedures governing the taking up of employment in the private sector by retired senior government officials to ascertain if the provisions in such legislation and procedures and expressly and adequately set out;

(b) when the former Commissioner of Police will officially leave the civil service; and

4070 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

(c) whether it is in breach of Civil Service Regulations if a senior government official takes up employment in the private sector immediately after leaving office?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Mr President, I must preface my answers to this question by saying that because we are currently dealing with this case, therefore I will only be giving a factual reply to the second part of the question because since we are now handling this case it would not be appropriate for us to comment too much on it at this stage.

I will now give answers to the three parts of the question as follows:

(a) First of all, legislation, regulations, rules and detailed procedures already exist governing outside work during leave and upon retirement. However, in the light of recent public concern about a particular case the Government has asked the Advisory Committee on Post Retirement Employment to review the rules and procedures governing outside employment during both pre retirement leave and upon retirement. In the light of the Advisory Committee's advice the Government will consider what and how, if any, changes should be made to the rules and procedures;

(b) the former Commissioner of Police will officially retire upon the expiry of his approved pre-retirement leave on 9 July 1995; and

(c) the Civil Service Regulations governing paid outside work while on leave require that a civil servant should seek permission to do so in advance. However, the regulation also states that if a civil servant on pre-retirement leave wishes to take up paid outside work in Hong Kong and intends to continue with the work after the date of retirement, then the rules governing post retirement employment will apply. The rules governing post-retirement require an officer to seek permission during the first two years of retirement in respect of any employment "the principal part" of which, to quote the pensions legislation, is carried on in Hong Kong. How these rules apply in practice depends on the circumstances of each case and, where appropriate, on the advice of the Advisory Committee on Post Retirement Employment.

MR SZETO WAH (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Government inform this Council whether a civil servant taking part in an activity for financial returns before he officially leaves office without seeking permission in advance is in breach of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance?

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4071 PRESIDENT: Are you in a position to answer that, Secretary?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, I think this particular question seems to ask for my opinion on a legal situation. If I may, I would suggest that this question be directed to the Attorney General.

PRESIDENT: If you wish to answer it, Attorney General.

ATTORNEY GENERAL: No, Mr President.

PRESIDENT: Do you have another question, Mr SZETO Wah?

MR SZETO WAH (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Government inform this Council whether a civil servant taking part in an activity for financial returns before he officially leaves office without seeking permission in advance is in breach of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance?

PRESIDENT: The Secretary has rightly declined to answer that question, Mr SZETO Wah, on the grounds that it seeks a legal opinion. And I cannot call on the Attonery General to answer this question because it is a question for the Secretary for the Civil Service. So, if you have another question you are free to ask it, but this question has already been asked and you will not get any further with it.

MR SZETO WAH (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Government inform this Council whether the former Commissioner of Police has sought the Government's permission to take up employment before officially leaving office ?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Mr President, I have made it clear at the beginning of the main reply that we are currently investigating this case. So I am afraid it would not be appropriate for me to comment on its details.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: The Secretary in his answer referred to work in Hong Kong. I wonder whether he would be kind enough to advise this Council what the position of a senior government official is, whether during pre-retirement or leave prior to retirement or after retirement, undertaking work outside Hong Kong?

4072 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, I am not exactly sure of the import of this question. If I may, could I ask, through you, the Honourable Member to repeat the question.

PRESIDENT: It seems to be in three parts, Mr ARCULLI.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: It is really in one part, Mr President. It really is a senior civil servant undertaking work outside of Hong Kong, and this presumably is after he has actually left the service, but he might technically still be a civil servant on pre-retirement leave or in fact on retirement leave, or indeed after retirement. So, if he undertakes work, say in the

United States or in Australia or wherever, but not in Hong Kong, is there any rule governing that particular situation, and if so, what the rules are?

PRESIDENT: While he is technically still a civil servant?

MR RONALD ARCULLI: That is correct, Mr President.

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, the rules governing work during retirement leave or after retirement centre around one key provision, namely whether that work is undertaken in Hong Kong or related to Hong Kong. So this is, I think, the most crucial aspect. But normally, one would expect a colleague who undertakes employment, whether within Hong Kong or outside Hong Kong, whilst he is still technically a civil servant, namely that he is on leave and has not completely left the establishment, then in which case he should have checked with the Civil Service Branch as to whether or not permission is required.

MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Government, in answering the question, seems to think that as long as the work of the civil servant in question is not principally undertaken in Hong Kong, or perhaps in Hong Kong but with foreign-related nature, he is not required to go through even the most basic application procedures, nor is he required to seek permission. Does the Government agree that, given Hong Kong's international status, the civil servant in question, whether taking up employment outside Hong Kong or undertaking foreign-related work within the territory, may possibly be involved in a conflict of interests in Hong Kong? And will those conditions, namely, taking up employment overseas or undertaking foreign-related work in Hong Kong be taken as a safety net or haven under which no civil servant is required to go through application procedures or seek permission?

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4073 PRESIDENT: Have you got the question, Secretary?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Not really, Mr President.

PRESIDENT: Mr CHEUNG, I must say I have not fully understood it myself.

MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): I repeat my question. But perhaps Mr SZE has got it. First, the Government mentioned in its reply that as long as "the principal part" of the employment is not undertaken in Hong Kong, the officer concerned is not required to seek permission. As no reporting is required, of course, no permission is required either. Does the Government agree that if the employment is undertaken in Hong Kong, the officer may possibly obtain benefits overseas; or for many transnational companies, the work may be undertaken in an overseas country while the benefits may be obtained in Hong Kong? Could this be the reason for not reporting and not seeking permission ?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Mr President, first of all, I would like to make myself clear. When considering whether a civil servant on retirement can take up a new employment, the most important point is whether that particular employment involves a conflict of interests. So normally, if the civil servant leaves Hong Kong upon retirement and takes up employment that is not in any way related to Hong Kong, there will definitely be no conflict of interests. However, the Mr CHEUNG mentioned some other circumstances, namely, the civil servant remains in Hong Kong after retirement and takes up employment that does not seem not to be undertaken in Hong Kong; or he actually leaves Hong Kong but the work undertaken may be related to Hong Kong. In these circumstances, is permission required then? In my view, the colleague has to check with us, and as such ambiguity exists, he should seek permission. It is because under the relevant legislation, whether the work is undertaken in or related to Hong Kong, it is a matter entirely for the Governor and not the colleague himself to make the final decision. So it is not a question of providing any haven at all.

MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, some members of the Securities and Futures Commission and the Hong Kong Monetary Authority basically have greater responsibilities than Policy Secretaries and other civil servants because the legislation or laws they draft will gravely affect the monetary affairs of the whole of Hong Kong. Will the Secretary tell us whether these people are also governed by the relevant rules? If not, will he consider making amendments to these rules?

4074 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Mr President, this question makes me feel flattered because Mr CHIM has greatly elevated my position. Basically, these two organizations are not part of the Government's internal structure. And as the Secretary for the Civil Service, I have no jurisdiction over their staff on matters such as their conduct. So I am not in a position to answer this question.

DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, the people of Hong Kong are very hard working indeed. Many of them do not oppose post-retirement employment being taken up by civil servants. But what they are worried is whether civil servants will give their future employers certain advantages during their service with the Government in order to secure some returns after retirement. In paragraph (a) of his main reply, the Secretary said that legislation, rules and detailed procedures were already in place to govern employment after retirement. I would like to ask the Secretary whether the mentioned legislation and rules include a mechanism to check if these civil servants did something which they should not do by abusing their power during their service in order to secure a good job after retirement? For instance, is the Advisory Committee on Post-Retirement Employment empowered to request the ICAC to conduct investigation on those civil servants in question to see whether they did anything against public interests?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Mr President, as I have said, in examining the colleagues' post-retirement employment, the most important point of consideration is conflict of interests. If a civil servant did something improper before his retirement, as what Dr LAM has suggested, that is, providing an advantage to certain people, then we should take follow-up action against him instantly for the reason that he has breached the Civil Service Regulations, or even the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance. We should never accept these practices here in Hong Kong. In this regard, I believe we need not worry.

As regards post-retirement work, when examining these applications, do we need to consider whether the applicants' pre-retirement work is too closely related to their post retirement employment, and whether we need to take any precaution? The answer is in the affirmative. Therefore, in general, most of the colleagues, upon retirement, have to go through a frozen period of at least six months during which they are not allowed to take up any employment. Over the past seven years, there were about 46 cases requiring the imposition of a frozen period. In some cases, the frozen period even lasted as long as two years. The reason was that the employments which these colleagues sought to take up were too closely linked to their previous work in the Government. So we usually impose a longer frozen period, the longest being two years. In this light, imposing a two-year frozen period is equivalent to non approval.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4075 Academic Achievements of Local Universities

3. MISS EMILY LAU asked (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Administration inform this Council whether it has information to show that the salaries and fringe benefits of the local universities' academic staff are higher than those of their counterparts in many overseas universities; if so, why have the local universities not been able to attain outstanding academic achievements on an international level?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the Administration has some information on the salaries and fringe benefits of academic staff in other countries, but the information is by no means comprehensive or totally reliable. Whilst it is recognized that the salary and benefits package of local universities' academics compare favourably with that of many, though by no means all, of their counterparts in universities and equivalent institutions elsewhere, the Administration considers that any direct comparison between the remuneration of academic staff in money terms could be misleading because the figures have to be interpreted in the context of each country's social and economic environment, the prevailing standard of living, inflation rate, purchasing power and market forces as well as relativities with other professions, which are essentially the factors determining the remuneration of academic staff.

As regards the second part of the question, it is not quite correct to suggest that local universities have not been able to attain outstanding academic achievements on an international level, which is largely measured by success in academic research. In the past few years, there have been significant increases in support for research, notably since the establishment of the Research Grants Council (RGC) in January 1991 and the Applied Research and Development Scheme in February 1993. Although the level of investment in research and development in Hong Kong is still low in comparison with other jurisdictions in the region, and lower still when compared with Western developed countries, research of high quality is being done right now in Hong Kong's higher education institutions. The best research projects funded by the RGC would be supported by research funding bodies in the United States and Europe. Academic staff of Hong Kong's universities are valued participants in international collaborative research projects and international conferences. Overseas members of the University Grants Committee (UGC) and the RGC have advised that research of international standard is being undertaken in Hong Kong.

Another measure of academic achievement of our universities is the quality of their graduates. It is a common phenomenon, not just in Hong Kong, that previous generations of graduates (and school leavers) regard succeeding generations as not matching their high standards.

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Notwithstanding such views, the best graduates of our institutions still are highly sought after by local and international companies and the professions, and many also succeed in enrolling on master's and doctoral programmes in first-class universities all over the world.

MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary for Education and Manpower admitted in his reply that the salaries and fringe benefits of the local universities' academic staff are higher than those of their counterparts in many overseas universities. Will the Secretary confirm that it is mainly because of their salaries and fringe benefits having been in line with adjustments to salaries in the Civil Service, and salaries and fringe benefits in our Civil Service are one of the best in the world? Also, on the question of the standard of our academic achievement at the international level, will the Secretary inform us which university or which faculty in these universities is internationally famous and which has won the recognition of their international counterparts as one of the best?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the salary scales of academic staff are required to be approved by the Government. They are determined in relation to salary scales in the public sector following an agreement between the Universities' Joint Salaries Committee and the Government in 1971 which provides that university salaries in Hong Kong bear a similar relationship to administrative grade salaries in Hong Kong, as university salaries in the United Kingdom bear to the administrative grade in the United Kingdom. Subsequent adjustments to salaries of academic staff in Hong Kong have been made in line with adjustments to salaries in the Civil Service.

As regards civil service salaries, these are adjusted annually and approved by Members of this Council in relation to the funding of civil service salaries. The reason for the apparent difference between salaries of Hong Kong academics in the UGC-funded institutions compared with other institutions are many-fold. As I said in my main reply, these have to be considered in the context of the social and economic environment of those countries. Furthermore, these differences are also explained in terms of the types of institutions and the funding arrangements when we compare — and I have stressed such comparisons are misleading — with other institutions in other countries.

For example, in the United States, there are private institutions as well as public institutions; some universities offer two-year courses, others offer four-year courses; some are church-funded. These differences within the United States may account for as high as 70% differences in salary scales.

Another important factor is that in other countries, often academics are paid for nine months only. They are expected to get research grants to supplement their salaries. Now, in Hong Kong, the research grants that we

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provide to our academics are not intented to be supplements to their salaries; they are intended to meet the direct costs of doing the research. So these are some of the reasons why they are different.

As regards examples of academics in Hong Kong, we do have a Nobel prize Winner, as well as Field Medal Winners. If you would like, I could give names of such distinguished academics we have in our institutions.

There is also one other point that I would like to make, that is, teaching is very important. We emphasize not only research — quality of research — through the support that the UGC provides to the institutions and their staff, but we also emphasize the importance of an environment for learning and teaching.

MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, teaching is exactly the question that I wish to raise. In order to be able to say whether salaries are high or low or whether they are worth it, we also have to look at the workload of teaching staff apart from their research work. Does the Government have any statistics on the comparison in respect of the teaching staff to students ratio, between local universities and those of academically distinguished overseas universities?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, I do not have such comparative figures. But I would like to, perhaps, draw to Members' attention that even such comparisons may not be very meaningful because in some other universities in other jurisdictions, graduate students do take on a lot of teaching work. So again, these comparisons do not help.

MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, in the main reply, we have been advised that research of international standard is being undertaken in Hong Kong. Research by definition is a venture into an area where no man has gone before — in a research sense, not in the Star Trek sense. If that is the case, is there such a thing as an objective standard of evaluation? And if there is, what is it?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, assessment of our research performance by the UGC and by the RGC overseas members confirmed that the quality of our research is on par with those of other countries. This is a third-party endorsement from outside Hong Kong. The other aspect, of course, is the publication of research material in world renowned journals, and here again in Hong Kong we have many examples of publication in such journals.

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MR PETER WONG: Mr President, I would like to inform the Honourable Member that I think that our medical faculties here are second to none. Be that as it may, will the Secretary inform the Council whether the UGC institutions have formulated performance measures for their academic staff and the institutions as a whole?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the assessment of the academic performance of teaching staff is essentially a matter for the institutions concerned, but the UGC is certainly concerned about the quality of the academic staff. Whilst they do not have plans to undertake a teaching assessment exercise at this stage, because there are no well-formulated or internationally accepted method or criteria for assessing teaching performance, the UGC will undertake a teaching and learning quality process audit of the institutions, starting in 1996, to see what each institution's teaching and learning quality assurance processes are and whether they are in place and operating effectively.

Employment of Disabled and Chronically Ill Persons

4. DR HUANG CHEN-YA asked (in Cantonese): Mr President, in view of the problems that the disabled and chronically ill persons face in seeking employment as a result of discrimination, public bodies should take the lead to prove that the disabled and the chronically ill do have the ability to work and that it is wrong to discriminate against them. So will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the numbers of disabled and chronically ill persons employed by the Mass Transit Railway Corporation, the Hospital Authority and the Hong Kong Trade Development Council respectively, together with the proportion of such persons to the total number of staff in each of these public bodies;

(b) whether positive measures have been taken by the Government and the public bodies to prevent discrimination of such persons in recruitment; if so, what these measures are;

(c) what policy the Government has formulated to encourage the employment of such persons by public bodies; and

(d) what specific measures have been put in place by the Government to assist such persons in undertaking vocational training and seeking employment?

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4079 SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,

(a) At present, the Mass Transit Railway Corporation has in its employment a total of 15 persons with a disability or chronic illness. This accounts for 0.2% of its total staffing establishment. The Hospital Authority has employed 220 persons with a disability, representing slightly over 0.5% of the total number of its employees. Separate statistics on chronic illness in the recruitment of staff are not maintained by the Hospital Authority. As regards the Hong Kong Trade Development Council, it has a total of six employees with a disability and 10 with chronic illness, which make up 3 % of its total number of staff.

(b) In line with the Government's well-established recruitment policy that we should take the lead in employing people with a disability, all persons with a disability applying for jobs in the Civil Service are not subject to our normal shortlisting criteria. In other words, those who possess the basic qualifications will be directly invited to attend selection interviews. Once selected for interviews, they will be considered on equal terms with other able-bodied applicants. If found suitable, they will be given preference over other applicants.

These three public bodies as well as many others have already put in place a series of non-discriminatory measures in their recruitment process. Job applicants, irrespective of whether they have a disability or not, are assessed equally on the basis of their qualifications and working ability. Some of these organizations have also modified their office equipment and facilities to cater for the needs of disabled employees. A greater number of public bodies are also gradually taking on these practices.

(c) Our policy is to ensure that people with a disability have an equal opportunity to participate in a productive and gainful employment in the open market. We have been encouraging this through public education and the outreaching efforts of the Selective Placement Division of the Labour Department to promote the employment of people with a disability.

Furthermore, at the Governor's Summit Meeting on Open Employment of People with a Disability in February 1994 and in March this year, employers' representatives were called upon to make concrete efforts to improve the employment prospects of people with a disability including those suffering from chronic illness. To follow up on this appeal, we have invited major employers, including public bodies, to publish policy statements and to set voluntary targets on employment of people with a disability.

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(d) Various measures have been adopted to assist people with a disability and chronic illness in undertaking vocational training and seeking employment. The Secretary for Health and Welfare has introduced into this Council the Disability Discrimination Bill which seeks to make discrimination and harassment on the ground of disability unlawful in specific areas, including employment and education. We will step up public education for the promotion of employment of people with a disability and chronic illness in the current financial year. This will include the publication of a guidebook to promote employers' awareness of the working ability of people with chronic illness.

Our supportive services include the counselling services provided by the family service centres and medical social services units of the Social Welfare Department and the provision of Rehabus service comprising scheduled routes and dial-a-ride service. The Selective Placement Division of the Labour Department provides special job placement service to all persons with a disability or chronic illness including those who have completed vocational training and retraining courses.

As regards training, the Vocational Training Council (VTC) provides a vocational assessment service to assess the ability of disabled persons for the purpose of formulating training plans for them. Full-time vocational training courses specifically designed for people with a disability are currently provided by the five subvented skills centres, three of which are run by the VTC. The VTC also provides a range of supportive services for the trainees, such as vocational guidance to prepare trainees for employment, paramedical services to help those with health and physical problems, technical aids for those who live far away from skills centres and centre bus service for those who have travelling difficulties.

In addition, the Employees Retraining Board provides people with a disability with special retraining courses which are tailor-made to meet the specific job requirements of the potential employers. A pilot retraining programme specifically designed for the chronically ill persons will be launched in collaboration with the Queen Elizabeth Hospital shortly. The Board also offers through its on-the-job training scheme financial incentive to employers employing persons with a disability by reimbursing to them one-third of the first three months' salary of employees with a disability.

DR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Mr President, the figures revealed by the Government actually reflect that the proportion of disabled and chronically ill persons being employed in these public bodies is very low. These figures

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also show that those bodies are just saying one thing but doing another. Discrimination still exists in public bodies. I can also cite some examples where it is complained that some chronically ill persons, when seeking employment from the Hospital Authority, were rejected without reasonable grounds. In view of this, will the Government inform us whether it will require all public bodies to publish and increase the proportion of the disabled and chronically ill persons in their employ and introduce a registration system under which these public bodies are required to explain why they do not employ these people?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the figures giving the employment rate for people with a disability should not be regarded as discriminatory practices. As I have said in my main reply, the public bodies, as well as the Civil Service itself, practise non-discriminatory measures in its recruitment of people with a disability. Not all people who have a disability are capable of progressing to open employment. We should bear this fact in mind.

As regards urging public bodies to employ more people with disabilities, this is what we have already done following the Governor's last summit. We will review performance at the next summit.

PRESIDENT: We have to move on because there are lots of supplementaries.

MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, in paragraph (b) of its main reply, the Government said that it would take the lead in employing people with a disability. But the figures I have in hand cannot make me believe that the Government has done so. As at 1 April 1994, there are 3842 civil servants with a disability, among them, 900 are colour blind. If these 900 colour blind people are excluded, the disabled government employees make up just 1.5% of the total number of civil servants. Can the Government explain how, with such figure, it can claim that the Government has taken the lead? Did the Government set a target of

having a certain ratio between disabled employees and the total number of civil servants?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the number of persons with a disability employed by the Civil Service at March 1994 is 3842. Whilst the figures do include people who are colour blind, the figures have been increasing. For example, as of April this year, the numbers employed in the Civil Service increased to 3941. We have continued to increase the number of persons with a disability within the Civil Service. These numbers should be seen in the light of the size of the Civil Service itself, which is getting smaller.

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Insofar as the civil service recruitment procedures are concerned, the Civil Service Branch will implement the following measures to enhance employment opportunities for people with a disability wanting to join the Civil Service. They will increase the frequency of their visits to departments and attend recruitment interviews involving candidates with disabilities. This will ensure that non-discriminatory practices are carried out to the tee. They will extend the existing network of co-operation with relevant non-governmental organizations to fully utilize their resources and support. So we will be giving more information directly to non-governmental organizations to find out whether their clients are interested in joining the Civil Service. There will also be increased emphasis on employment of people with a disability in human resource management training programmes for managerial grades in the Civil Service. The Civil Service Branch also intends to improve the collection of statistics to monitor the employment situation in individual departments more closely.

PRESIDENT: Last supplementary, I am afraid, we have to move on.

MS ANNA WU: Mr President, on support and supportive services for the disabled persons, can the Secretary elaborate as to whether these services include pre-job assessment of the job environment to see if reasonable changes could be made to accommodate disabled persons and providing accompanying persons to the disabled persons to assist them with job adaptation ?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: The support services, for example, provided by the Selective Placement Division of the Labour Department includes assessment of each job seeker who needs to attend an in-depth interview with the Placement Officer to assess that individual's potential working ability, as well as training needs, and if required, we also make referrals for tailor-made retraining courses to strengthen their employability. Officers of the Selective Placement Division will carefully match the vacancies with the qualifications and ability of the person with a disability seeking a job and will accompany that person to attend selection interviews. After placement, officers of the Labour Department's Selective Placement Division will provide follow-up services for three months to ensure successful job placement. Counselling will be provided, if necessary, not only to the person placed but, if necessary, the employer will also be helped to understand the needs of such persons who have been placed with them.

Long-Term Ferry Policy

5. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Cantonese): Mr President, as traffic congestion has become a serious problem in Hong Kong which needs to be resolved urgently, will the Government inform this Council whether it will,

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apart from strengthening the development of the land transport network, make full use of Hong Kong's physical advantage of being surrounded on three sides by sea and launch a comprehensive review and planning of the inner harbour and outlying ferry services, so as to formulate a long-term policy to enhance such services ?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, ferries provide an essential link to the outlying islands. They cope with the transport needs of those who live there and also cater for recreational traffic during weekends and public holidays.

Ferry services also provide an important alternative transport mode for residents of northwest New Territories, for example, linking Tuen Mun with the urban areas.

On the other hand, it must be recognized that, given the choice of the Mass Transport Railway (MTR) and cross-harbour buses, inner-harbour ferry services have become less attractive to commuters in terms of convenience and travelling time. Indeed the Hong Kong and Yaumati Ferry's cross-harbour patronage has fallen significantly from about 72500 passengers per day five years ago to the current level of about 32000 passengers per clay.

The review and planning of ferry services is an ongoing exercise. Let me illustrate this:

(a) Over the past two years, there have been significant improvements in service to northwest New Territories. For example, in addition to regular sailings, three high capacity and fast catamarans are now deployed on the Tuen Mun route to cater for the morning rush. Two new routes have also been introduced — one from Tuen Mun to Wan Chai and one from Gold Coast to Central. To encourage commuters to travel by ferry, special feeder buses and green minibus services have been provided to connect the ferry piers with residential areas. Additional ferry services have also been provided between Tsing Yi and Central.

(b) Ferry services are mobilized to provide a back-up service during emergencies which in turn, may result in severe road traffic congestion. For example, in June last year, special ferry shuttle services were provided between Tsing Yi and Tsuen Wan because of serious traffic congestion in Kwai Tsing District caused by a combination of poor weather and bad traffic accidents, and in August last year, special ferries were deployed to Ap Lei Chau because of the partial closure of the Ap Lei Chau Bridge caused by a landslip.

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(c) We license ferry services to private residential developments, for example, at Discovery Bay.

(d) The completion of the Chek Lap Kok Airport and Tung Chung new town will open up opportunities for new ferry services. This will be examined in the context of a transport study which is now in hand.

To provide the required network of ferry services we must ensure their economic viability. By way of looking ahead and forward planning, the Administration is finalizing the detailed terms of a pier development package with the Hong Kong and Yaumati Ferry. A key element in this proposal is the requirement that a proportion of the profits from the project will be used to finance service improvements, particularly to upgrade services to the outlying islands and northwest New Territories. This package will also allow fares to be maintained at reasonable and affordable levels.

Mr President, the Administration will continue to review its policy on ferry services and will take into account changing circumstances and new developments. We will continue to encourage ferry companies to improve their services.

MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr President, it seems to me that the reply of the Secretary for Transport has not addressed the key point of my question. It is said in the fourth paragraph of the reply that the review and planning concerned are on-going exercises. Yet, I found from those several cases that all are merely reviews carried out as corrective or

"remedial" measures. They are by no means forward-looking planning work. In fact, the substance of my question concerns inner-harbour and outlying island ferry services and I hope the Government would have a policy under which a comprehensive review will be conducted. As a matter of fact, many modes of transport in Hong Kong were reviewed before. For example, the railways, public light bus, green minibus and so on. Now I am calling for a comprehensive review on aspects including the viability of routes and whether new ferry companies will be brought in to create competition. In this connection, I would like to ask the Secretary whether the Government is unwilling to carry out a comprehensive review of ferry services and will continue to carry out reviews only as remedial measures just as it is currently doing. If the answer is yes, what are the reasons?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, with due respect, I do not accept the Honourable Member's criticism. When I say we have an ongoing review, this is a review and we are always looking at ways and means of improving ferry services. I think the reality, insofar as inner-harbour ferry services go, must be recognized. The fact is that for many commuters, ferries do not necessarily offer a point-to-point destination. It is much more

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convenient both in terms of using one transport mode and also in the actual time taken on the trip to travel by other means. This is a fact. Buses, as I have said, cross-harbour buses, and the MTR provide much more accessible and much more direct services. But having said that, I did say that we are reviewing ferry services. We have in fact looked at ferry services to northwest New Territories in particular and this is under constant review. We have upgraded our facilities — ferry services both to Tuen Mun and to Tsuen Wan and Tsing Yi, if I can cite a few examples. The total capacity to cope with the morning rush, for example, to Tuen Mun, is over 5400 passengers. The total patronage now stands at something in the order of 3100, which is about 58%. Likewise, for the Tsuen Wan to Central/Wan Chai service, the capacity used is only 21% and for Tsing Yi to Central and Wan Chai is higher at about 70%.

The point is that these services are under constant review and because ferries are not necessarily the most attractive investment for operators and because of costs and other factors, one has got to be realistic. I think we should focus our attention on services to the outlying islands.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): In his reply the Secretary for Transport said that inner harbour ferry services were becoming less attractive. Is it due to reasons such as low frequency and discomfort of ferries and so on that members of the public prefer buses rather than ferries? However, we all know the problem of traffic congestion at present. For instance, it takes quite a long time to travel from Kowloon to Central by bus. May I ask if the Government has considered improving the service and frequency of ferries with a view to making ferries more attractive, hence increasing the patronage of this mode of transport?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, one of the reasons, of course, why inner harbour ferry services are less attractive now is because the piers have had to be relocated and in turn this is due to reclamation for various airport projects and other development projects. This means that originally, when, for example, one could travel between, say, Central and Jordan Road in a direct line, now because of the relocation of the piers it is less convenient and it may be more convenient for commuters to use buses or the MTR. But having said that, we do try and encourage commuters to use ferries and one way of doing this is to make sure that at the main ferry piers, there are adequate transport interchange facilities and indeed at most of the ferry terminals you will see taxi stands and bus terminals.

MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Insofar as improvements to the ferry services are concerned, it is vitally important to purchase brand new and fast vessels. Only by so doing can ferries become more attractive to commuters. Catamarans running the Tuen Mun route is a case in point. Does the Government have any measure in place to ensure that the Hong Kong and

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Yaumati Ferry Company Limited will continue with its investment in brand new and fast vessels subsequent to its property development above the piers?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, the Honourable Member is quite right. In fact, as I have said in my main reply, one of the key elements in the development package is to require that funds be set aside for service improvement and as part of this exercise, the Government, in discussion with the ferry companies, will ensure that they have a forward planning programme to purchase new craft and fleet.

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary for Transport said in the fifth paragraph of his reply that the Administration was working with the Hong Kong and Yaumati Ferry Company Limited on the development of the pier. Has the Government considered offering the pier development to another real estate company in such a way that the profits could be directly invested in the ferries?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, as I have said, part of the profits will have to be ploughed back for the improvement of ferry services.

MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, the development of outlying island ferry services is indeed very sluggish. Chatting with residents of the outlying islands, 1 was often told by many of them jokingly that it took one hour for their grandfathers to travel from Cheung Chau to Central by ferry and now it still took them one hour to do so. There has been no improvement at all. Neither has there been any improvement made to the piers in Sok Kwu Wan and Yung Shue Wan on Lamma Island for the past 30 years. It is only because the Government has reached an agreement with the Hong Kong and Yaumati Ferry Company Limited on property development in Central that residents of outlying islands have their first heaven-sent chance in 40 years to travel by new ferries and have new piers. May I ask the Secretary for Transport if it is the Government's policy to launch another pier development project and improve pier services, frequency and quality of craft in another 40 years later when the grandchildren or even great-grandchildren of this generation will be born?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, one of the reasons why the Government has entered into discussions with the Yaumati Ferry Company is because they are now experiencing a very serious financial position vis-a vis their services and as I have repeatedly said, one of the key considerations is to require a fairly substantial proportion of the profits to be channelled back into the improvement of ferry services. Much of the forward planning and the target is indeed to improve ferry services to the outlying islands. The Honourable LEE Wing-tat is quite right. Up to now, service improvements in

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terms of ferries and piers to the outlying islands has been less than satisfactory but I can assure Mr LEE that once the development package is announced, the company's priority will be to ensure that the fleet and the services to the outlying islands are much improved.

MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr President, the question I raised just now sought to call on the Secretary for Transport to carry out a forward-looking and comprehensive review. However, in his reply he only made reference to the reviews on inner-harbour services. Not a single word was said with regard to outlying island ferry services. Mr President, my follow-up question is this: Does the Secretary accept that where the existing ferry services are concerned, some routes are basically unattractive to commuters because the fleet of craft have been in service for a long time and become decrepit? Will the Secretary consider, in the course of the review, allowing new ferry companies to provide ferry services for certain routes in order to bring in competition, whereby the ferry services could be improved?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, as I said in my reply to the Honourable Member's first question, I am afraid I do not accept his criticism. When I say we are going to review it, we are going to review it comprehensively and obviously if the Honourable Member has any specific ideas we will be very happy to take these on board. Insofar as competition is concerned, as I have said, one has got to be realistic insofar as ferry services are concerned. On a daily basis, we have some 10 million commuter trips per day, but the share of this figure, insofar as ferry services are concerned, is in the order of about 170000. Having said that, we will certainly continue to review the improvement of ferry services and see what we can do.

Handling of Dangerous Chemicals

6. REV FUNG CHI-WOOD asked (in Cantonese): Mr President, while workers were unloading goods in a Tuen Mun godown some time after 8 am 11 May, a drum containing industrial raw material was punctured, from which flowed a cyanide-type liquid chemical called "tolylene di-isocyanate". Workers at the scene used water in an attempt to dilute and wash away the chemical leaking out but instead some toxic fumes were created. Nine men and women workers suffered from chest pain, burning eyes and shortness of breath after inhaling the toxic fumes and were all sent to hospital for observation and treatment. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) whether the above incident was caused by illegal storage or mishandling of dangerous chemical substance; if so, whether prosecution will be instituted;

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(b) whether companies dealing in dangerous goods and their staff are required to follow safety regulations and procedures in handling chemicals and coping with related accidents; if so, whether these safety regulations and procedures are adequate to ensure the safety of workers; and how the Government will monitor activities involving the handling of chemicals and provide the relevant information; and

(c) whether staff working in such companies have received any special training in handling the relevant dangerous chemicals; if not, whether the Government will consider imposing such a requirement?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,

(a) The investigation conducted by the Fire Services Department revealed that the accident was not caused by illegal storage of dangerous chemicals. The Labour Department is still investigating whether the incident was caused by mishandling of the dangerous chemicals during unloading. In the circumstances, it is inappropriate to speculate on whether any prosecutions will eventually be undertaken.

(b) As regards the second part of the question, the Dangerous Goods Ordinance, in broad terms, covers the physical aspects of the control of dangerous goods. It contains provisions for the control of the storage and transport of dangerous goods, including the packaging, labelling, licensing of vehicles, methods of storage and fire prevention measures.

Proprietors of companies or establishments falling within the definition of "a factory" or" an industrial undertaking" under the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance are required to take measures to ensure the safety of their employees in handling dangerous substances. Under the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Dangerous Substances) Regulations, the proprietor of an industrial undertaking is required to label the containers holding chemicals controlled under these regulations, to give information on the risks inherent in the chemicals and to ensure that the safety precautions required and remedial measures in case of spillage, contact with, inhalation or swallowing of the chemicals are in place.

The proprietor is also required to provide his employees with protective clothing and equipment, information, training and supervision for the safe handling of dangerous chemicals so as to prevent accidents and injuries. To guard against the inhalation of toxic chemicals, the proprietor has to provide adequate ventilation

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of the workplace to render harmless all fumes and other impurities in the air that may be injurious to health. In general, he needs to ensure that the workplace and the system of work are safe and the working environment is healthy for his workers. The Labour Department has also published specific guidlines on dealing with dangerous goods and safety procedures to help proprietors and workers.

As far as the monitoring of activities involving the handling of chemicals is concerned, the Five Services Department makes regular and surprise inspections to licensees of dangerous goods stores and of vehicles conveying dangerous goods regulated by the Dangerous Goods Ordinance. The Factory Inspectorate Division of the Labour Department also pays regular visits to factories and industrial undertakings, especially those premises which are considered particularly prone to accidents caused by mishandling of dangerous chemicals to ensure proprietors' compliance with the relevant provisions of the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Dangerous Substances) Regulations. Prosecutions will be taken out during such inspections for any proven breaches of the relevant legislation. In addition to routine inspections, the Factory Inspectorate Division mounted a Chemical Safety Campaign in 1993 and 1994 to check on safety practices when handling dangerous chemicals. During these campaigns, targetted inspections were made and prosecutions were also taken as a result.

(c) As regards the third part of the question, under the General Duties Provisions of the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance, employers are already required to provide employees with the necessary safety training relating to their work. Failure to do so renders the employers liable to prosecution under the relevant ordinance.

REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Mr President, recently there have been repeated incidents of toxic chemicals leakage. And the incident on 11 May was obviously a result of mishandling by the workers. Does it reflect the inadequacy of the existing procedures, regulations and training concerned? Will the Administration review these existing measures to see, for example, whether the training required to be provided by the employers to the employees is adequate, whether it is necessary to add more information on the labels on containers of chemicals, including, for example, what should be done in case of an accident?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the provisions in the law already provide for a very comprehensive requirement to be met by employers as well as their staff to ensure safety in the workplace in

4090 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

handling dangerous chemicals. We believe that these provisions are adequate. We ensure the adequacy of these provisions through the inspections I referred to in my main reply.

There is, separately, a more general review of safety which is currently conducted within the Education and Manpower Branch. This review of safety is being conducted by the Secretary for Education and Manpower and it involves the relevant departments and outside bodies. We will be producing for public comments a consultative document on ways to improve the safety culture in the community as well as looking at needs to strengthen legislation generally.

PRESIDENT: Last three supplementaries, as we are running out of time.

MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, given the rapid housing development in Hong Kong in virtually all areas of the territory, does the Fire Services Department continuously review the locations of dangerous goods storage to ensure that these locations and the conditions applying to them are still valid and that they do not become, because of the development, risks to public safety?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, with your permission may I refer that question to my colleague, the Secretary for Security?

PRESIDENT: Are you able to answer, Secretary?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Yes, Mr President. The Fire Services Department carries out annual inspections of dangerous goods stores. This is a necessary condition for their continued licensing. Obviously, if there are any reasons, any development in relation to a particular dangerous goods store that would render the store to be unsuitable at that location, licence would not be issued.

PRESIDENT: Mr McGREGOR?

MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, I think the question is not answered. I am really concerned about the positive need to vet those areas, those places which are permitted storage of dangerous goods when developments are put into place like large housing estates and not simply an inspection of existing storage to see whether each one is safe or not, once the housing estate has been constructed. In other words, Mr President, is planning of storage areas for dangerous goods part and parcel of the overall housing planning ?

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4091

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Planning for the location of dangerous goods stores are, of course, where appropriate, taken into account in the planning of new large estates.

MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, the main reply given by the Secretary for Education and Manpower has painted a faultless picture of the situation. There are labelling, safety precautions, remedial measures, information and training on safety, protective clothing and equipment and the like. Nevertheless, in that incident, it appeared that everything was lacking. For example, the workers seemed to have never received any training because they used water to wash away the chemical leaking out, and there seemed to have no protective clothing because the workers inhaled the toxic fumes immediately after the spillage. In the past few years when the Administration conducted surprise inspections to the licensees concerned, did the inspectors concerned check whether the workers know how to deal with any contingency or were they only looking at something superficial, like whether there was any protective clothing or labelling? Are the inspections sufficient in that aspect?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, in the course of inspections, the Factory Inspectorate will make enquiries with both employers as well as employees to find out whether safety training has been provided. Also in the course of such inspections, they will be able to see visually whether appropriate safety measures have been undertaken in the process of the work carried out by staff. As regards frequency of inspections, this varies as I indicated in my main reply. Those premises where we believe are more prone to accidents will be visited on a more regular basis and also, as I mentioned in my main reply, if we find that there are breaches, prosecutive actions are taken under the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance and its regulations.

PRESIDENT: We have to move on, Mr TO.

MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, I hope that every time when the Administration responds to a question, it will not keep on saying that everything is sufficient as though nothing needs to be done. I find that in fact the weakest part of the whole answer is that workers are not provided with any safety training. The Secretary for Education and Manpower just mentioned that in the course of inspections, the Factory Inspectors would observe whether safety training had been provided to the workers. I am sure they did not ask such questions. I hope that the Factory Inspectorate can conduct a survey on all the trades and establishments dealing with chemicals to see how many of them have provided training to employees and what kind of training courses are offered. I hope that the Administration will not only reply that everything is enough. Will the Administration consider my suggestion?

4092 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, as I mentioned already, we do make enquiries in the course of these inspections of both employers, proprietors, as well as the workers themselves, and there are severe penalties for breaches, both applying to proprietors as well as workers, covered by the ordinance.

I hope I have not appeared to be complacent about industrial safety, because as I mentioned earlier in a reply to a supplementary question, we are reviewing safety generally and one aspect of our review is to promote a better safety culture within our workforce. This we believe to be very important.

I have taken note of the Honourable Member's suggestion of a survey and we will consider that.

WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Statutory Protection of Professional Titles

7. DR SAMUEL WONG asked: According to the Professional Engineers Act (Cap.253) in the Republic of Singapore, no person shall use verbally or otherwise:

(a) the words "professional engineer" or any additions to or abbreviation or derivative of those words in connection with his designation;

(b) the word "engineer" or the abbreviation "Er" or "Engr" as a title before his name; or

(c) any word, name or designation that will lead to the belief that the person is a registered professional engineer,

unless at the time of so doing the person is a registered professional engineer.

The Engineers Registration Ordinance (Cap.409) was enacted by this Council in 1990, in which the title "registered professional engineer" with or without a qualifying discipline, and the initials "RPE" with or without a qualifying discipline, are all protected. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council why the use of the title "engineer" is not protected in the Engineers Registration Ordinance while the title "architect" which, along with the title "registered architect", is protected under the Architects Registration Ordinance ?

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4093

SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President, during the drafting stage of these two ordinances, the professional bodies representing architects and engineers in Hong Kong were fully consulted. Each of these bodies adopted a slightly different approach. Nevertheless, the final provisions under the respective ordinances have the common objective of assuring the public that registered professionals will have a proper background and that they are competent to practise in their respective professions.

Before the enactment of the Architects Registration Ordinance (ARO), there was the possibility of confusion in the public mind as to the differences between qualified architects, and other professionals without architectural training but also involved in the building process. Building Surveyors and Engineers, for example, can also be Authorized Persons under the Buildings Ordinance. The title "architect" (建築師 Kin Juk Si) is therefore protected under the ARO to signify only a professionally qualified architect. The expression (劃則師 Waak Jik Si) which can be used by surveyors and engineers as Authorized Persons under the ARO remains unprotected.

The situation for engineers in regard to the Engineers Registration Ordinance (ERO) is different. This was confirmed during extensive consultation, in particular with the Hong Kong Institution of Engineers. Furthermore, the word "engineer" is commonly used in a non professional context by individuals as well as businesses, and it is difficult to protect the title engineer given its common usage in Hong Kong and elsewhere.

Enactment of the ERO and the creation of a register of qualified "registered professional engineers" allows employers and the public to identify those engineers who have not only achieved full professional standing, but on an annual basis confirm their continuing competence to practise in a particular discipline. The Engineers Registration Board administers the register, and has the necessary powers under the ERO to ensure that only competent engineers are recognized as registered professional engineers.

Kindergarten Subsidy Scheme

8. MR TIK CHI-YUEN asked (in Chinese): Regarding the Government's recently announced kindergarten subsidy scheme, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the number of existing kindergartens collecting school fees at a rate of more than $8,300 a year; of these, how many have employed more than 40% of qualified teachers, and what is the percentage of such kindergartens against the total number of kindergartens; and

(b) whether the upper limit of annual school fees under the scheme will be raised as a result of kindergartens having to employ more than 40% of qualified teachers?

4094 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,

(a) The number of kindergartens currently collecting school fees at a rate of more than $8,300 per pupil per annum is 203. Of these, 166 employ more than 40% qualified teachers, representing 22.5% of the total number of kindergartens.

(b) The cut-off point of $8,300 has been set having regard to the resources available for the subsidy scheme and the general consideration that we should not subsidize kindergartens charging high fees. It is intended to conduct a review of the scheme in early 1996 to take account of operational experience including whether the cut-off point should be adjusted for those kindergartens employing more than the minimum requirement of 40% trained teachers.

Black Market Activities Involving Correctional Services Department Officers

9. MISS CHRISTINE LOH asked: Is the Government aware of allegations of black market activities involving Correctional Services Department (CSD) officers in Vietnamese Detention Centres? If so, will the Government inform this Council whether:

(a) an investigation is being conducted; if so, what the progress is, and whether the Independent Commission Against Corruption has been called in to investigate;

(b) protection is being offered to potential witnesses, be they detainees or CSD officers; and

(c) consideration will be given to providing the camps with those necessities which are now only available on the black market?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, in March this year, the Government received allegations of black market activities involving CSD officers in the Whitehead Detention Centre.

Following receipt of the allegations, an investigation was conducted by the Complaints Investigation Unit of the CSD. The investigation found that some illegal hawking by Vietnamese migrants existed in the Whitehead Detention Centre. The investigation also confirmed that the activities were individual initiatives. As there was no evidence to support the allegation of CSD officers' involvement, the matter was not referred to the Independent Commission Against Corruption.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4095 As there is no prosecution case, the need for witness protection does not arise.

The Vietnamese migrants in the detention centres are provided with all the basic necessities. There is no plan to change the existing arrangements.

Improvement Works to Pamela Youde Nethersole Eastern Hospital

10. DR LEONG CHE-HUNG asked: Will the Government inform this Council why improvement works are needed for the electrical installations of the Multi-Centre Block of the Pamela Youde Nethersole Eastern Hospital, given that the hospital is relatively new?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, the Multi-Centre Block of Pamela Youde Nethersole Eastern Hospital was originally planned for use as staff quarters. Since it is an established policy of the Hospital Authority to provide only callrooms and overnight accommodation based on operational needs, action is being taken to convert these quarters into office units. Electrical upgrading works are therefore necessary to meet the increase in power supply required for ventilation and air-conditioning equipment associated with this change of building usage.

Government Steps in Handling Mr Paul AU's Case

11. MRS ELSIE TU asked: Will the Government inform this Council what steps have been taken to secure the retrial, or appeal, or the release of Mr Paul AU from life imprisonment on a dubious charge in the Philippines, since the subject was last raised in this Council at the sitting on 26 October 1994?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, in a written reply to Honourable Members on 26 October 1994, my predecessor reported that Mr AU's attorney intended to file his brief, relating to Mr AU's appeal, in the Supreme Court of the Philippines before the end of October 1994. We understand that Mr AU's attorney filed his brief on 27 October 1994. The British Government has been pressing the Philippine Government for an early hearing and decision on his appeal.

Since then, the British Embassy in Manila wrote twice, on 6 December 1994 and on 28 February 1995, to the Solicitor-General of the Philippine Government to press for a speedy consideration of the case. The case was raised again with the Philippine Solicitor-General on 21 March.

4096 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

In April 1995, the visiting Deputy Under-Secretary of State at the Foreign Office also expressed concern to his counterpart in the Philippine Government on the slowness of the Philippine judicial system and the time taken to hear Supreme Court appeals.

To ensure the well-being of Mr AU and the other Hong Kong resident in this case, the Consul from the British Embassy in Manila visits them regularly. The Hong Kong Government and the British Government will continue to press for early consideration of the case.

Protection against Methane from Landfills

12. DR LEONG CHE-HUNG asked: Will the Administration inform this Council:

(a) whether any measures have been taken to protect residents living near landfills from the influence of methane produced from garbage decay; if so, what those measures are and what the cost of implementing such measures is; if not, what measures will be taken and what the cost of, and the timetable for, implementing those measures is; and

(b) how it can prevent similar problems occurring in new landfills in the future?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,

(a) There are 13 operating and closed landfills. The Environmental Protection Department has commissioned studies to examine how these landfills can be restored to a safe and environmentally acceptable condition to permit their afteruse. Interim first-aid measures at Sai Tso Wan Landfill and Jordan Valley Landfill have been completed. These involved the construction of gas abstraction systems to abstract the methane gas to high temperature flares on site to bum it off, and of a gas venting trench to create a barrier to stop methane gas migration, respectively. The works at Shuen Wan Landfill involves a gas abstraction system and will be completed next month. The construction costs for these measures amount to about $40 million.

In the longer term, gas control systems will be developed in all the old landfill sites under a comprehensive restoration programme. The works will be divided into four packages. The timetable for implementation and total cost estimates are given in the table attached. On average, the costs for gas control systems account for

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4097

about 9% of the capital cost and about 25% of the operating cost. We shall seek approval from the Public Works Subcommittee for upgrading the works projects to Category A in May and June 1995.

(b) Regarding the current three strategic landfills, measures have been incorporated into their new design to prevent similar landfill gas problems. The impermeable liner at the base and sides of the new landfills eliminates the possibility of the escape of methane gas through the base of the landfill. A gas abstraction system will also be installed to prevent gas escaping from the surface. These measures will ensure that gas will not migrate off the landfill sites and will be installed progressively as landfilling proceeds.

Cost estimates

at December 1994 prices MOD

Landfills Completion

date Capital Operating

(Capital + 7

years' operation)

($ million) ($million/year) ($million)

Package A

- Shuen Wan Landfill April 1997 185 12.6 389.3

Package B

- Ngau Chi Wan June 1997 194.8 22.2 514.3 Sai Tso Wan

Jordan Valley

Ma Yau Tong West

Ma Yau Tong Central

Landfills

- Gin Drinkers Bay June 1998 81 9 197.2 Landfills

Package C

- Tseung Kwan O May 1997 581 18.2 972.6 Stage I and Stage II/III

Landfills

Package D

- Ngau Tam Mei Oct 1997 119.6 10.8 288.5 Ma Tao Lung

Siu Lang Shui

Landfills

- Pillar Point Valley Landfills late 1998 481.5 9.7 849.8

4098 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 Juvenile Violent Crimes

13. DR HUANG CHEN-YA asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of:

(a) the total number of violent crimes committed by young people under the age of 18 in the past three years; and

(b) the breakdown of the number of such offenders by the following categories:

(i) those who have hyperactivity, attention deficiency or other similar medical problems;

(ii) those who come from problem families; and

(iii) those who have triad society involvement?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,

(a) The number of violent crimes for which persons under the age of 18 years were arrested was 2255 in 1992 and 4298 young people were involved; in 1993, it was 2183 and 4250 young people were involved; and in 1994, it was 2221 and 4132 young people were involved.

(b) (i) and (ii) We do not have statistics on the number of these young people who have hyperactivity, attention deficiency or other similar medical

problems, or who come from problem families.

(iii) The number of persons under the age of 18 years arrested for violent crimes was 4298 in 1992, of whom 836, or 19.5%, had

triad-links; in 1993, out of the 4250 young people arrested, 805, or

18.9%, had triad-links; and in 1994, out of the 4132 arrested, 719,

or 17.4%, had triad-links.

'Smart Card' Scheme

14. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): Is the Government aware of the plan to introduce a "Smart Card" scheme by various public transport organizations? If so, will the Government inform this Council:

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4099

(a) which public transport organizations have decided to take part in the "Smart Card" scheme;

(b) which public transport organizations will not take part in the scheme and the reasons thereof;

(c) how the organizations mentioned in (b) above can be encouraged to take part in the scheme;

(d) what is the progress regarding the introduction of the scheme, and when it will be formally implemented; and

(e) whether it is aware of the estimated cost of implementing the scheme, how it will be shared among the organizations concerned, and whether it will put any pressure on the fares of public transport services provided by these organizations?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, five major transport operators have agreed to co-operate to introduce a common contactless smart card scheme — the Mass Transit Railway Corporation, the Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation, Kowloon Motor Bus (KMB), Hong Kong and Yaumati Ferry and Citybus. Initially, the smart card can be used for all existing rail services, KMB cross-harbour routes and selected ferry and Citybus services.

The other public transport operators have not opted to take part in the scheme but they may join later if they so wish. This is entirely a commercial decision.

A contract for the design, development, manufacture, installation, commissioning and maintenance of the scheme was awarded by the participating organizations in June 1994. According to the current programme, a trial scheme will be introduced towards the end of 1995 with a view to full implementation in late 1996. The smart card project aims to provide not only better customer service in terms of convenience, reliability and security but also operational benefits.

The common system for the smart card scheme is estimated to cost $150 million. In addition, the participants will each have to meet their own capital costs for equipment totalling about $250 million. Since the capital expenditure will be spread over many years the impact on fares should be marginal.

4100 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 Training Courses for Health Workers of Residential Care Homes

15. MR MOSES CHENG asked (in Chinese): Regarding the training courses jointly organized by the Hong Kong College of Nursing and the Social Welfare Department since 1989 for health workers working in Residential Care Homes (RCHs), will the Government inform this Council:

(a) what are the respective total numbers of courses held so far and training places offered;

(b) of the total number of persons who have applied for enrolment, how many of them have been admitted to the courses, and how many have successfully completed the whole training course;

(c) how many trainees managed to obtain employment as health workers in RCHs after completing the courses; and

(d) whether the Government will review the entry qualifications for such courses so as to attract more people to enrol and become trained RCH health workers?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President,

(a) Since the introduction of training courses for health workers in 1989, 10 courses have been organized. The first nine courses produced 326 trainees. The current course which commenced in March 1995 and the coming one which will commence on 26 May 1995 each involve 40 trainees.

(b) There were 628 applicants for the 10 training courses organized so far, out of whom 367 were enrolled. Of the 367 who were enrolled, 326 have so far successfully completed their courses. One failed to complete the course and 40 are still currently attending the 10th course.

(c) Those who have so far enrolled for the courses were already employers or employees in RCHs for the elderly. Most of them continued to work in these homes after completing the course. In view of the great demand for health workers, trainees awarded regular certificates from the courses have experienced no problems in securing employment in RCHs for the elderly.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4101

(d) Those targetted for enrolment in the training courses organized so far are persons with a minimum of two years' medical or nursing training. In order to attract more people to apply for enrolment, the training courses will be expanded by strengthening the scope of the training content so that people who do not have prior medical or nursing experience can participate effectively in them. Applicants for the new courses will need only a Form III standard of education and preference will be given to those applicants who are already working in RCHs for the elderly or who have received previous training in first aid or home nursing.

Safety of Mass Transit Railway

16. MR LEE WING-TAT asked (in Chinese): As the safety of the Mass Transit Railway (MTR) has become a subject of concern in the wake of the poison gas attack in Tokyo, will the Government inform this Council whether it is aware of the following:

(a) which are the five busiest stations along the MTR lines and what is the number of people using the MTR during peak hours at each of these stations;

(b) what measures the Mass Transit Railway Corporation (MTRC) has put in place to improve the congestion at the stations' concourses and exits caused by waiting crowds and hawkers;

(c) what contingency measures does the MTRC have to deal with unexpected occurrence of major incidents in its stations; and

(d) whether the MTRC has commissioned an independent professional firm to assess the effectiveness of the contingency measures in the event of an emergency in its stations; if so, what the result is; if not, why not?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, the average number of passengers per hour at the five busiest MTR stations during peak hours is as follows:

Central 33800

Kowloon Tong 32050

Tsuen Wan 30900

Wan Chai 23850

Tsim Sha Tsui 22200

4102 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

The MTRC is aware that hawkers cause a nuisance at certain station entrances and has employed nine teams of guards to patrol its stations. Regular enforcement action is also taken by the police jointly with the two municipal services departments against hawking activities in the vicinity of the MTR stations. Concourses at stations are busy during peak hours but MTRC does not consider that large numbers of passengers waiting at concourses present a serious problem.

The MTRC has contingency plans to deal with emergencies. Indeed, the need for such measures as enhanced ventilation and mass evacuation during possible emergencies has already been taken into account in the design of the layout and operation of the system. Drills are organized periodically in conjunction with the police and the Fire Services. Through these drills, the adequacy of the co-ordinated contingency plans and the ability of staff to handle emergency situations are tested.

The MTRC seeks the advice of the Hong Kong Railway Inspectorate and the United Kingdom Railway Inspectorate on safety aspects and emergency procedures. In addition, the Corporation keeps abreast of local and overseas experience in handling emergencies. Given these arrangements, and their own in-house expertise, the MTRC considers that there is at present no need to engage an independent organization to advise on contingency procedures.

Recruitment of University Vice-Chancellor

17. MISS EMILY LAU asked (in Chinese): Recently, the University of Hong Kong (HKU)'s handling of the recruitment of its new Vice-Chancellor has not only embarrassed the scholar tipped as the successful candidate, but also given rise to criticisms on the recruitment exercise. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether:

(a) it has made any attempt to ascertain from the Court of the HKU about the problems encountered in the recruitment process, and what measures will be taken to prevent the recurrence of similar problem; and

(b) it is aware of any implications this incident may have on the forthcoming recruitment of the new Vice-Chancellor of the Chinese University of Hong Kong; if so, what those implications are?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the Administration is aware of developments with regard to the selection of a new Vice-Chancellor at the University of Hong Kong and understands that the University will take all necessary steps to ensure that the recruitment process is conducted smoothly and fairly. The appointment of the University's Vice-Chancellor is, however, a matter solely for the University, under the provisions

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4103 of section 12(6) and Statute VI.1 of the University of Hong Kong Ordinance (Cap.1053).

The Administration is also aware that the University Council of the Chinese University of Hong Kong has formed a Search Committee for the appointment of the next Vice-Chancellor in accordance with requirements of the Chinese University of Hong Kong Ordinance and its statute. The Administration understands that this Committee is now conducting the search with due care and diligence.

Enrolment at Practical Schools

18. DR TANG SIU-TONG asked (in Chinese): There are at present two practical schools in the territory which provide education to school-age youngsters who are not interested in the normal secondary school curriculum. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the enrolment in the current academic year at the Hong Kong Sea School and whether the admissions in the 1995-96 academic year have dropped as compared with figures of the past two years; if so, what the reasons are;

(b) whether the reported 40% admissions rate of the Tung Wah Group of Hospitals Practical School in Yuen Long falls short of the Government's target, and how many student hostel places will be provided in the school and when they will be ready for use so as to attract more students to apply for admission; and

(c) whether the Education Department will review the admission standards for practical schools so that Band 5 students under the Secondary School Places Allocation System may also enrol in these schools?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,

(a) The Hong Kong Sea School commenced operation as a practical school in September 1993. Its enrolment was 251 and 235 respectively for the academic years 1993-94 and 1994-95 (as at 15 April 1995). Enrolment for the 1995-96 academic year will not be known until later in the year.

(b) The Tung Wah Group of Hospitals Practical School in Yuen Long commenced operation in September 1994 with a capacity for 150 Secondary I places. It admits students throughout the year. As at 15 April 1995, the school has already admitted 132 students. We consider the enrolment level satisfactory. The school hostel is

4104 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

scheduled for completion in September 1995. It will provide 120 residential places.

(c) Practical schools admit students who are not motivated by the normal school curriculum but who are interested in and are likely to benefit from an alternative curriculum placing less emphasis on academic subjects and more on practical skills. Such students are assessed by the professional officers in the Education Department for the purpose of admission to a practical school offering such alternative curriculum. Various factors such as students' interests, personality, family background and school results are taken into consideration in the assessment process. Band 5 students fulfilling the above criteria are assessed on the same basis and a number have been admitted to the two practical schools as a result.

Rehousing Policy for Squatters Affected by Fires

19. MR FRED LI asked (in Chinese): According to the existing housing policy, urban squatters who are unfortunately rendered homeless as a result of natural disasters (such as landslides) will be rehoused in nearby urban areas, while victims of fires will be accommodated in remote areas in the New Territories. The main purpose of this policy is to deter people from setting their homes on fire so as to get rehoused. However, as most of the urban squatters have been cleared and rehoused, and having regard to the undertaking mentioned in the Governor's policy address last year and the fact that cases involving arson with the intention of getting rehousing have disappeared, will the Government inform this Council whether consideration will be given to changing the existing rehousing policy for squatters affected by fires; if so, how it will handle the rehousing problem of the squatters in a few remaining urban squatter areas like Lei Yue Mun and Cha Kwok Ling in the event of a fire; if not, why not?

SECRETARY FOR HOUSING: Mr President, the supply of public housing in the urban area is limited. Given this situation, provision needs to be made for residents already living in the urban area who, for various reasons, have a priority claim on rehousing in the urban area. These include victims of natural disasters, tenants affected by the redevelopment of public housing estates and residents of urban Temporary Housing Areas under clearance.

As a matter of policy, fire victims are rehoused in the New Territories in order to discourage the incidence of fire. There are about 7000 urban squatters on government land and some 22000 urban squatters on private lots. If fire victims living in urban squatter areas were to be rehoused in the urban area, it could lead to an increase in the squatter population and the possibility of arson. As a result, the waiting period for households on the General Waiting List for

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4105

public housing would be lengthened. For these reasons, we do not think it is advisable to change the existing policy, but will keep it under review.

Pylons and Routing Project in Fei Ngo Shan Area

20. MR PETER WONG asked: In view of the concerns expressed by the Black Point Routing Objection Association over the close siting of 400kV pylons in the Fei Ngo Shan area, will the Administration inform this Council why, with the 50% surplus in China Light and Power's electricity supply, the routing project cannot be suspended until a solution satisfactory to all parties concerned is found?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, the 400kV transmission lines currently being constructed by the China Light and Power Company are needed to strengthen the company's transmission and distribution system to cope with increasing demand for electricity in the Company's supply area. The section of line which passes through the Fei Ngo Shan area is required to serve the growing population of Tseung Kwan O. Tseung Kwan 0 is currently served from the Tsz Wan Shan primary substation, which also serves East Kowloon and is nearing capacity. A new primary substation at Tseung Kwan O and the line connecting it to the 400kV transmission system must be commissioned in May 1996 to maintain adequate security of supply.

The level of reserve capacity in the company's generating system is not a factor in the planning of transmission and distribution facilities.

MOTIONS

FIXED PENALTY (TRAFFIC CONTRAVENTIONS) ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT moved the following motion:

"That, with effect from 9 June 1995, section 20B(1) of the Fixed Penalty (Traffic Contraventions) Ordinance be amended by repealing "$125" and substituting "$440"."

He said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name in the Order Paper concerning the Fixed Penalty (Traffic Contraventions) Ordinance.

Court costs are payable under section 20B of the Ordinance by a person who, having initially disputed liability for a fixed panalty in respect of a parking offence and having been served with the summons, subsequently changes his mind and elects not to pursue the matter in court. In order to terminate the

4106 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

court proceedings, he has to pay double the fine of a fixed penalty and an additional $125 in court costs.

The existing court cost fee of $125 was set in 1991. A recent costing exercise indicates that the costs to the Administration in respect of the preparation for court proceedings now mount to $440.

It is normal practice to set fees and charges at the level necessary to recover full costs. We therefore propose to increase the court costs to $440 to recover these costs in full.

Mr President, I beg to move.

Question on the motion proposed.

MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, I have some comments to make in respect of the Secretary for Transport's motion. I am not against the principle of cost recovery but there are a few points I would like to make:

Firstly, I learned from the Transport Branch the reason for the increased costs, which is that a number of people would initially dispute their liability but then suddenly choose to terminate the court proceedings, resulting in the so-called extra administrative costs. I hope the Administration could conduct a review to find out the reasons for the sudden surge in the number of people who disputed the fixed penalty and then changed their minds. People need to pay an extra penalty of $125 for the change of mind. We cannot say that they are doing this for no reason, as this fails to explain the sudden surge. Could it be that in the implementation of policies, some disputable situations have arisen, for example, in dealing with parking offences?

Secondly, I see there are some problems in the Ordinance which I hope the Secretary for Transport can review. Under the existing proceedings, a so-called "ticket" is issued first. If the offender does not pay within 21 days, a notice will then be sent as a reminder, specifying a date by which the penalty must be paid. If the offender fails to pay by that date, the police will apply to court for an order to the effect that the offender is required to pay twice the penalty, for example, twice of $320, the existing penalty for a parking offence, plus court fees. However, current law, that is section 15(5A) of Chapter 237, states that even if the police has not yet applied for an order from the court, the police by law cannot accept any payment of penalty, after the date specified in the notice served subsequent to the first ticket. I am surprised by this part of the law. Is not the whole system so designed to encourage residents to abide by the rules? I have a real case in which the offender went to the police headquarters to pay the penalty and the police indeed was prepared to accept payment because this would save the trouble for both parties. Unfortunately, the said section 15(5A) states that this cannot be done. I hope the Secretary for Transport will conduct a review to iron out this problem.

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Thirdly, from the data given to us by the Secretary for Transport, we know that the $440 is a figure arrived at by dividing the total costs by an average figure. Nevertheless, I have noticed something weird. Costs for handling a fixed-penalty case in the Eastern Magistracy are $650 while those in the San Po Kong Magistracy are $262. There is a big difference between the two. The same situation arises in the subject of the motion immediately after this one that is the Fixed Penalty (Criminal Proceedings) Ordinance. Figures for the costs in the two magistracies are markedly different — those in the Eastern Magistracy are more than twice of the other. This is certainly not the responsibility of the Secretary for Transport, but I do hope the Judiciary can improve on its efficiency. Of course, I am not saying that offenders should be asked to pay less. Rather, I hope that our administrative efficiency may be enhanced.

Fourthly, although the penalty is an average figure, it is not entirely fair. Offenders who choose to follow through the redress process and those who choose to dispute initally but afterwards decide to terminate the action are involved in two different sets of procedures. Frankly speaking, the administrative costs incurred in the latter case will surely be less that those incurred in the former. Therefore, I feel that the Secretary for Transport can disucss the matter with the court with a view to reflecting through different amounts to tbe paid the extent of the different costs incurred by the two different categories of offenders. This would be fairer. Under the present method of calculation by average, offenders who choose to follow the process through would be favoured. This, I think, does not conform to the principle of equity.

Be that as it may, the Democratic Party is not opposed to this motion.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I would just like very briefly to respond to the points raised by the honourable Member. I shall certainly pursue the various points he has raised with the authorities concerned and, in particular, ask the Judiciary Administrator to review the method of court costs. As regards the reasons why individuals may or may not change their minds and pay fixed penalty tickets or seek redress in the courts is up to the individuals, but the point about whether or not the police can adjust their timing to collect fixed penalty tickets will be followed up. I think all I would like to say, Mr President, there has to be a cut-off point and it is of course indeed proper that individuals who are served with fixed penalty tickets should have the opportunity to seek redress in the courts, but I am grateful to the Honourable Member for his suggestions and I shall follow this up.

Question on the motion put and agreed to.

4108 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 FIXED PENALTY (CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS) ORDINANCE

THE SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT moved the following motion:

"That, with effect from 9 June 1995, section 9(1) of the Fixed Penalty (Criminal Proceedings) Ordinance be amended by repealing "$125" and substituting "$440"."

He said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name in the Order Paper concerning court costs under section 9 of the Fixed Penalty (Criminal Proceedings) Ordinance in respect of fixed penalty tickets issued for moving traffic offences.

The explanation I have given regarding the previous motion applies equally to this motion.

Mr President, I beg to move.

Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.

BILLS

First Reading of Bill

BUILDINGS (AMENDMENT) (NO.2) BILL 1995

Bill read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).

Second Reading of Bills

BUILDINGS (AMENDMENT) (NO.2) BILL 1995

THE SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Buildings Ordinance."

He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Buildings (Amendment) (No.2) Bill 1995.

The Bill consists of two parts. One concerns the control of building and demolition works. The other deals with the registration of building professionals.

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Following the collapse of a part of a wall under demolition in Nathan Road in September last year, the Government announced a comprehensive action plan to improve safety at construction and demolition sites. The action plan outlined immediate, interim and long-range measures to tighten control of building and demolition works. It included more intensive site inspection, clearer practice notes for building professionals, firmer prosecution policy against breaches of safety requirements and a legislative review. A part of the Bill is the result of this review.

The Bill aims to strengthen the Buildings Ordinance in three areas: first, the Building Authority's powers to impose control to ensure safety; second, the registration system of building contractors; and third, offences and penalties.

The Bill enables the Building Authority, for public safety reasons, to:

- refuse to approve building or demolition plans or issue consent for the commencement or continuation of building works;

- require proper supervision and safety measures to be provided at work sites; and

- require the submission of relevant information so that the Building Authority can determine whether adequate safety measures have been implemented.

For the new system of contractor registration, we propose two types of contractors — general building contractors and specialist contractors — should be registered. A key requirement will be that the contractors' qualifications, experience and competence will be assessed by a statutory committee, whose membership will include representatives of the concerned industry associations and professional bodies. In addition, registration will be personal to an individual. Corporate bodies or unincorporated associations of persons will not be able to register. This will remove an existing grey area in terms of legal liability. A grace period of two years for the existing registered building contractors to comply with the new requirements will be provided.

We also propose that failure to provide proper supervision of building works or to comply with the conditions attached to the Building Authority's approval of the building plan or consent to the commencement of building works will be an offence so as to ensure compliance with the new legislative provisions. This will cover building owners, registered contractors, site agents, works supervisors, building professionals and construction workers. Their responsibilities will be clearly defined, in a way which reflects their roles in a construction project.

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Our proposals accommodate practically all the recommendations of the Coroner's Court which recently completed an inquest into the deaths at the wall collapse in Nathan Road. They are a reasonable and pragmatic approach to further strengthen construction safety.

The Administration shall be discussing further with professional bodies and others concerned on details. Further amendments to the law will be finalized in the form of three amendment regulations, which will be tabled in this Council for Members' consideration as soon as possible. These regulations will cover details such as the proper level of supervision to be provided by different parties at construction sites, new safety controls on demolition works and other amendments consequential to the future enactment of the Bill.

The second part of the Bill deals with the registration of Authorized Persons and Registered Structural Engineers. We propose to improve the existing registration system by bringing it in line with the provisions in three other building professional registration ordinances, namely, the Architects Registration Ordinance, the Engineers Registration Ordinance and the Surveyors Registration Ordinance.

Under the Bill, only a building professional who is registered under the relevant registration Ordinances will be permitted to become an Authorized Person or Registered Structural Engineer. Two registration committees to help the Building Authority to assess the eligibility of a person to register will be formed. Most of the committee members will be nominated by the statutory Registration Boards of the concerned professions.

The Bill will ensure the continuing competence of and help encourage self-regulation by building professionals. I commend the Bill to Members.

Thank you, Mr President.

Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

CREDIT UNIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 8 March 1995 Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to. Bill read the Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4111 POST-RELEASE SUPERVISION OF PRISONERS BILL

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 19 January 1994 Question on Second Reading proposed.

MISS CHRISTINE LOH: Mr President, the Post-Release Supervision of prisoners Bill aims to provide for the release under supervision of certain categories of prisoners on the order of the Post-Release Supervision Board established for that purpose.

A Bills Committee was activated on 10 June 1994 to study this Bill. I chaired nine meetings, including eight with the Administration. The Bills Committee has considered views from five deputations and written submissions from the Law Society of Hong Kong, the Hong Kong Council of Social Service and 132 prisoners.

In considering the Bill, the Bills Committee has reservations, first and foremost, on the objective of the proposed Post-Release Supervision Scheme.

Members of the Bills Committee and deputations are concerned that the new Scheme will involve a fundamental change in the granting of remission to prisoners, although Members have mixed views on the proposed Scheme itself. Prisoners are normally granted remission up to one-third of their sentences as a matter of course under Rule 69 of the Prisons Rule. It is, therefore, not surprising that serving prisoners view the Scheme as an extension of their sentences. Members took that concern into account when scrutinizing the Bill. I will return to this later. Members unanimously stress that the proposed Scheme should be rehabilitation-oriented. The emphasis should be on care, not control. In that connection, they consider that more resources should be devoted to the provision of release counselling and training for effective rehabilitation.

After extensive discussion, the Administration agrees to modify some provisions of the Bill as reflected in the Committee stage amendments which, I am sure, the Secretary for Security will elaborate in a moment.

I would just like to summarize, therefore, the major concerns of the Bills Committee for this Council.

As I said earlier, Members of the Bills Committee are most concerned with clause 22. This clause attracts the strongest objection from deputations and prisoners because of its retrospective effect which is considered unfair to serving prisoners. The proposed Scheme has been described as introducing a form of double punishment for prisoners covered by it, who are now released unconditionally at the two-thirds point of their sentences without post release

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supervision. But in future they will be subject to such supervision. Although remission under the present system is not a legal right, it is a legitimate expectation of the prisoners.

The Administration argues that the existing remission scheme will not be abolished, and it will not constitute double punishment because it will not increase the sentence imposed on a prisoner by the court. Under the Scheme, they will be given guidance and counselling after their release. Close supervision and control will only be necessary if an ex-prisoner is demonstrating recidivist behaviour.

After protracted discussions, the Administration finally agrees that the Scheme will apply in such a way that only periods of prison service outstanding after the enactment of the Bill will be considered for the purpose of calculating possible periods of supervision for serving prisoners. The maximum period of supervision that the Post-Release Supervision Board may order may not exceed half of the period between the enactment of the Bill and a prisoner's earliest date of discharge. However, the Board may order a period of supervision of up to six months regardless, providing that this period does not extend beyond the date at which a prisoner's sentence will expire without any form of early release or remission. The Bills Committee accepts the proposed new clause 22 as a reasonable measure for serving prisoners.

Another concern of the Bills Committee is about the involvement of the police in the Scheme. The Administration originally proposed that there should be three members in each aftercare team: one Officer and one Assistant Officer I from the Correctional Services Department, and one Police Sergeant. The role of the police officer would be a supportive one, and that his or her expertise was intended to enable the team to identify any recidivist inclination among the supervisees at an early stage.

Members, deputations and prisoners are all concerned that the police involvement may be open to abuse by the police using the opportunity to obtain information from the supervisees for criminal investigation purposes. I wish to re-emphasize the Bills Committee's concern for post-release care of the supervisees, and not their control. We are pleased that the Administration agrees that police officers will not be involved in the operation of the Scheme. Instead a social worker from the Social Welfare Department will replace the policeman in each aftercare team. He or she will have no control duties: his or her responsibility will be to provide necessary aftercare services to persons to whom the Scheme will apply. In this way, the Administration will ensure a strong and independent element in the aftercare teams responsible only for the delivery of post-release care.

Our third concern is the original clause 13(1). It would have been possible to suspend a supervision order if the Board considered that a person was acting in a manner likely to cause serious harm to the public, or if a person appeared to be proposing to commit any offence. The Bills Committee was

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concerned that it would have been impossible to define what manner of act or acts were likely to cause serious harm to the public, or whether a low threshold would be set for proof of likelihood to commit a crime.

In response to concerns of the Bills Committee and deputations, the Administration now proposes a new clause 13(1) which better defines the nature of the unacceptable behaviour which must be evident before a supervision order may be suspended. Members are happy with the new clause.

Our fourth concern is about the representations by the prisoner. A new clause 19 is proposed. It relates to the process which must be followed before the Board may make a supervision order, or vary the terms and conditions of a supervision order, or the period of suspension of any order. The proposed amendments require that a case must be considered within a reasonable period, of any form of recall being implemented; and, within this timeframe, a person is given a reasonable period to make representations to the Board, or to prepare for a hearing.

Towards the end of deliberations of the Bill, Non-official Members of the Board of Review — Long Term Prison Sentences approached the Bills Committee to express their concern that the terms of reference of the proposed Post-Release Supervision Board may overlap with those of the Board of Review.

The Administration explains that the functions of the two Boards are different in that the former will deal with prisoners with determinate sentences, whereas the latter recommends to the Governor whether the sentences of long term prisoners should be converted from indeterminate sentences to determinate sentences. Members were advised that the Administration intends to put forward new legislation to turn the latter into a statutory body with its own powers to determine post-release supervision of long term prisoners in future. As a transitional measure to enable proper functioning of the two Boards, a new clause 20(2) is proposed to allow recommendations made by the Board of Review to be taken into account.

Before closing, I would like to say that it appears to the Bills Committee that the Administration was somewhat unclear about its plan on post-release supervision of prisoners when the Bill was first presented to the Committee; and as a result it caused delays in the deliberation of the Bill.

To end, I would like to thank Members of the Bills Committee, our very hardworking secretary, and representatives from the Security Branch, the Correctional Services Department and the Legal Department, for their efforts on the re-making of this Bill into an acceptable form.

Mr President, with these remarks, I support the Bill.

4114 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the Bill before us seeks to introduce a mandatory Post-Release Supervision Scheme for adult prisoners. To date, these people have been released from prison, often after very long periods, with only limited preparation for what to expect after their release, and with no formal post-release guidance and assistance in their efforts to reintegrate into society in a law-abiding manner.

Looking back over the progress of this Bill, I am struck by the extent to which thinking on it has developed. This evolution is a testament to the work of the Bills Committee, as well as a reflection of the changing expectations of the purpose of our penal system. I would, therefore, like to offer my appreciation to the Honourable Christine LOH and Members of the Bills Committee, who, in their thorough deliberations, have focused the Administration's attention on those aspects of the Bill which they believed should be amended to advantage. I am convinced that the amendments to be moved at the Committee stage later today will produce a Bill that is a marked improvement on the original.

The Bill as it was first put to this Council, while supplying the essential framework for the Post-Release Supervision Scheme, lacked sufficient appreciation of the impact of the Scheme on the individuals it was designed to serve. We have come to appreciate better, through the months of deliberation in the Bills Committee, that those being released from prison are returning to an environment that will be unfamiliar, challenging and, in some cases, frightening. We cannot expect that upon release prisoners will always know what to do to reintegrate into society in a law-abiding manner. Unless they have good support from their family and friends, ex-prisoners will find it hard to react positively to the situation. The Bills Committee process has identified ways and means for us to improve the Scheme, both within the context of the Bill itself and in other areas relevant to our aim of ensuring that the Scheme is applied in a truly beneficial manner.

The principal improvements that we will seek to make at Committee stage are:

(a) in general, to make the review processes of the Post-Release Supervision of Prisoners Board more transparent;

(b) to tighten the nature of the circumstances that must prevail before the Board may consider suspending a supervision order;

(c) to ensure that a person being reviewed by the Board receives all information to be considered by the Board in a timely and accessible manner so that he or she has a reasonable period to prepare appropriate representations. These provisions will also ensure that information to be considered by the Board may be withheld from the person only if good cause, as defined in the Bill, is shown and that it will not be possible, under any circumstances, for the Board

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not to provide sufficient information to allow the person to appreciate the nature of the case being considered by the Board;

(d) to provide the right of a hearing for the person before the Board may consider suspending a supervision order and to allow the person to be assisted at such a hearing;

(e) to enable the Governor to make recommendations to the Board in the light of the views and the observations of the Board of Review — Long Term Prison Sentences on prisoners who are within its purview. Where the Board does not accept such recommendations, it shall submit a report to the Governor to explain its reasons; and

(f) to apply the provisions of the Bill to prisoners serving sentences at the date that the Bill comes into effect, so that the periods to be specified in supervision orders will be limited to exclude the portions of sentences that have been served up to that date. In other words, we will not be applying the Scheme in a manner which has been described as "retrospective". It will apply only to sentences or portions of sentences served after the Bill comes into effect.

The Bills Committee, quite rightly, urged the Administration to consider these amendments in a wider context. The Post-Release Supervision Scheme has the dual aims of establishing both mandatory care and also control structures for released adult prisoners. We had originally envisaged that these aims would be exercised through three-man supervision teams, each comprising two Correctional Services Officers and a police officer. However, we accept that our principal aim should be the care aspect of the scheme: we should provide opportunities to prepare prisoners for their release back into society and then, after their release, we should give them every assistance in their efforts to reintegrate into society. We should not seek to exercise any control powers under the Scheme unless our rehabilitative efforts are clearly not succeeding.

I should stress that we will, as Members have urged, be initiating the rehabilitation process before prisoners are released. In this context, we have agreed that the police officer in each aftercare team should be substituted by an officer from the Social Welfare Department. All officers, both from the Correctional Services Department and from the Social Welfare Department, will have a qualification in social work. In addition, the Social Welfare Department officers will remain on the establishment of their Department and will report to their Director. This will ensure that priority will always be given to rehabilitative care in the implementation of this Scheme.

We have also agreed to amend the proposed quorum of the Board, which is specified in the draft regulations to the Bill, so that public officials on the Board will always be in the minority. This ensures that the Board will be able to function independently.

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The Post-Release Supervision Scheme has been proposed because we believe that it will be of benefit to prisoners who are leaving prison and returning to society. In order for prisoners to fully appreciate this, we will be amending the information booklet given to all prisoners to explain, in non- technical language, the way that the Scheme will operate and what prisoners should expect from it. It is important that prisoners appreciate that we have introduced this Scheme for their benefit, and we shall make every effort to help them to understand this.

Until now, Correctional Services Officers have been forbidden by law to associate with most prisoners after release. Thus, over the years, much of the rehabilitative support given to prisoners and, particularly, ex-prisoners has been provided by voluntary agencies. These agencies have established themselves as an important part of the rehabilitative process. Indeed, some of them command a high level of trust from prisoners themselves. We have acknowledged this in our discussions with the Bills Committee. Although it would not be appropriate to make specific mention in the Bill of the involvement of these agencies, it is our intention that they will continue to be closely involved in the rehabilitation process.

This Scheme should be viewed not as an end in itself, but as the first step in an ongoing process. The application of the Scheme will be relatively limited at its inception, expanding to include more prisoners as it becomes established. The Scheme itself will apply to prisoners with determinate sentences, that is, those who have been sentenced to fixed periods of imprisonment. We will, as a next stage, be drawing up detailed proposals for prisoners serving indeterminate sentences. Further on, we will explore other ways and means of improving the rehabilitative aspects of our correctional services system. This step by step approach should enable us to develop from a solid and tested base.

I believe that this Scheme will work, that it will become accepted by prisoners and by the community at large, and that prisoners and ex-prisoners will appreciate the benefits that it will bring. We will now be able to offer continuing, immediate and personal support and guidance to ex-prisoners in a clearly-structured Scheme. This can only work to the benefit of the ex- prisoners themselves and to the community as a whole.

Mr President, with these words I recommend the Post-Release Supervision of Prisoners Bill to this Council.

Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.

Bill read the Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4117 MARINE PARKS BILL

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 23 November 1994 Question on Second Reading proposed.

DR LAM KUI-CHUN: Mr President, the Marine Parks Bill seeks to provide for the designation, control and management of marine parks and marine reserves, and for the purposes connected therewith. Its objective is to protect valuable sea areas identified as ecologically important by designating them as marine parks or marine reserves. Members of this Council have set up a Bills Committee to scrutinize the Bill.

In studying this Bill, the Bills Committee has received representation from fishermen who object to the proposed designation of Cape D'Aguilar as a marine reserve. Members of the Committee note their concern that since fishing activities would no longer be allowed in the marine reserves, the fishermen's livelihood might be jeopardized. In reply, the Administration has explained that the proposed reserve at Cape D'Aguilar comprises a small area of only about 20 hectares, in which fishing effort will be limited. The impact on fishermen is expected to be small. Under the prevailing policy, ex gratia allowance would be granted to the fishermen affected. After a site visit to Cape D'Aguilar, we have accepted the Administration's explanation, and support the Cape be designated a marine reserve.

Regarding the specific provisions of the Bill, the Bills Committee has expressed a number of concerns. I shall highlight the major ones.

Under the Bill, no new development shall be carried out within the proposed marine park or marine reserve without the prior approval of the Authority. The Bills Committee is concerned about the definition of "new development", which does not include developments that have been approved prior to the publication of the draft maps showing the proposed marine parks or reserves, and any repair or renewal works to existing structure or facility. In the absence of objective criteria to determine the potential damage caused by the proposed works to the marine environment, the purpose of conservation could be defeated. The Committee therefore considers it necessary to tighten the meaning of "new development".

The Administration has pointed out that clause 22 of the Bill requires the approval from the Authority in carrying out repair or renewal works. The Authority could, where necessary, impose stringent conditions on granting such approval. The Administration gives the assurance that it will, in consultation with the Country and Marine Parks Board, devise guidelines for processing applications for repair and renewal works. If the proposed works are assessed to have potential impact on the marine environment, the Authority will consult

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the Board before making the decision. The Administration has further explained that existing works which have already been approved prior to gazettal of a proposed marine park or reserve will not be required to reapply for permission to continue the works because of the need to honour such approval. In the light of Members' concern, the Administration agrees to delete renewal works from the scope of exemption under the definition of new development and move relevant amendments to the Bill.

On the proposed designation of the Director of Agriculture and Fisheries as the Authority to both control and manage these parks and reserves, the Committee is concerned that for the Director to assume the dual role of conservation of marine environment and development of fisheries industry, conflict of interest may arise.

The Administration does not envisage there would be any conflict of interest. In fact, both the Country Parks Board and its Working Group had discussed the issue and they had recommended the Director as the Authority handling both conservation and development.

The Bills Committee feels that it may not be practicable to have a new department to assume the role of the Authority without delaying the passage of the Bill, and therefore accepts the Director of Agriculture and Fisheries as the Authority.

Another area of concern, Mr President, is on the scope of persons eligible to lodge an appeal against the approval by the Authority on new developments. Members are particularly concerned that persons other than the appellant, for example, green groups or persons affected, should be provided with a channel of appeal. We therefore suggest that clause 11(1) be amended to allow persons who feel aggrieved by a decision of the Authority in respect of new developments in the marine park or marine reserve to appeal to the Administrative Appeals Board.

The Administration has pointed out that it will be inconsistent with the policy intent of allowing an applicant a channel of appeal if the scope of aggrieved persons is widened to include any person. Persons other than the applicant have already had opportunities to voice their views on any new development. An amendment to clause 10 to require the Authority to seek the advice of the Country and Marine Parks Board before deciding on an application is one of the channels. Section 6 of the Foreshore and Sea-bed (Reclamations) Ordinance provides any person who considers he has an interest, right or easement in or over the foreshore or sea-bed could lodge an objection in respect of any reclamation works. Persons such as the green groups could make use of this channel to raise objections.

Given that a Bill is best self-contained and the nature of this Bill differs from that of the Foreshore and Sea-bed (Reclamations) Ordinance, some Members feel that the Bill should clearly set out the scope of permissible

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appellants as well as the mechanism for appeals and objections. Other Members, however, have reservation on consolidating into one Bill all relevant provisions of the appeal mechanism. The key to the concern would be whether there are adequate avenues for members of the public to gain access to the necessary information to enable them to lodge valid appeal or objection.

In the light of the concerns expressed, the Administration agrees to add provisions under clause 8 of the Bill, for the purpose of providing for public access to necessary information. The amendments proposed are finally accepted by the Committee. The Administration has also undertaken to introduce measures to increase the transparency of the Country and Marine Parks Board, for example, by widening the representation on the Board and conducting meetings in public.

On the question of Crown immunity, the Bills Committee welcomes the Committee stage amendment which is intended to bind the Government to the Bill.

Members of the Bills Committee generally accept that the Bill represents a step forward in protecting our marine environment, although it may not be considered to have gone sufficiently far by some. After the Bill's passage, the first phase of the programme will begin with the designation of two marine parks at Hoi Ha Wan and Yan Chau Tong, and a marine reserve at Cape D'Aguilar. We would like to emphasize on the importance of adequate resources available for the programme and the Authority's commitment in conservation.

The Committee is glad to note that the Administration is planning to embark on a five year ECOFISH project — a project to restore the already damaged marine resources and to improve fish stock. For the project to be a success, adequate funding must be provided. We believe it is important that the Administration will accord priority to the ECOFISH project in its resource allocation.

With these remarks, Mr President, and subject to the Committee stage amendments to be moved by the Administration, the Bills Committee recommends to this Council that the Bill be supported.

MR PETER WONG: Mr President, up till recently, we all thought of the seas as an infinite resource — hence the seemingly callous proposal of dumping our sewage into the deep blue sea. We did not realize that man with his technology is close to beating nature at its own game. There is just too much pressure on nature, particularly near the heavily populated areas, and nature needs time and help to heal and regenerate itself.

I make no bones that I exerted pressure on the Government to bring this Bill to this Council, albeit with the absolute minimum of resources. I would

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respectfully draw the Financial Secretary's attention that the funds for setting up and running the Authority and the actual parks and reserve can be almost dismissed as derisory. But they are better than nothing, and I mean nothing.

I was pleased that the Government announced that the artificial reef projects will be included in the Resource Allocation Exercise for installation in the parks. I would put in a strong plea for a fair share of the pie.

This piece of legislation marks new ground in green laws. The Administration has finally recognized that such legislation must bind the Crown because infrastructure and utility works even for the benefit of the people have the potential to be the greatest polluter — you only have to look at the dumping of toxic mud. Civil servants will now have to be much more careful in what they do — they will have to communicate more with the public who will be represented by increasingly vocal and better informed green lobbyists. In order to enable them to do this without fear, amendments are being brought in to protect them when acting in good faith.

I have had long arguments about the merits of extending the class of people who can appeal a decision of the Authority to those who have no direct involvement in the project. I strongly feel that urban dwellers may have an interest to appeal, for instance, a decision under this Marine Park legislation to put a new electric cable through a marine park, even though it was pointed out that it should be possible to bring an action under the Foreshore and Sea-bed (Reclamations) Ordinance to stay new developments.

Mr President, I am mindful that half a cake is better than none at all. I apologize to fellow environmentalists if they felt that I have betrayed our cause by not pushing for this fundamental right — but I can see us arguing until the Administration withdraw the Bill at the Third Reading after my amendments have been passed by a large majority. I have settled for an interim resolution by accepting an undertaking that the Administration will be much more open in the way information is made available to the public, so that they have the necessary information to consider what is being done is in everybody's best interest and have practical avenues of redress if they think otherwise. This undertaking to be open about the business of the Board and Authority has been vital in our backing for this Bill.

There are still many battles that have to be fought and they will wait for another day. I will only mention just one, and that is the conflicting roles of the Secretary, being in charge of both the promotion of fisheries and conservation.

Mr President, this Bill has seen breakthroughs that are very welcomed. The Governor and the Administration have promised a comprehensive review of the Country Parks Ordinance and I hope that the lessons and new principles gleaned from this Bill be applied, and soon, in that review.

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It is my sincere wish that with the passing of this Bill, the Authority and the Board can be set up quickly with adequate resources. In a few years, I hope that our fishermen, both commercial and recreational, will see the wisdom of these parks and reserves and as a sanctuary for fish stocks to be replenished and in time to supplement their catch in a meaningful way. In North America, Japan and Thailand, where these sanctuaries have been established, we find that the commercial fishermen are their most zealous guardians because they appreciate that sensible conservation is the only way to sustain their livelihood or sport.

Mr President, I support the resumption of the Second Reading of the Marine Parks Bill.

REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Mr President, on behalf of the Democratic Party, I welcome this Bill as well as the proposed designation of marine parks and marine reserves by the Government.

Instead of restricting to certain areas only, this marine conservation measures should be extended to cover the entire territorial waters of Hong Kong. The Government has to take some measures to protect certain areas from further pollution because marine pollution in Hong Kong is extremely serious. At present, activities like dredging of marine mud, reclamations and dumping of sludge into the sea have resulted in serious marine pollution, not to mention the effect of industrial and domestic sewage discharges into our harbour. The designation of marine parks and marine reserves would be unnecessary at all should our harbour not be so seriously polluted. I earnestly hope that the Government will take more positive measures to protect the sea. For instance, dredging of marine mud for reclamation purpose should be avoided as far as practicable. But unfortunately, due to urgency of our airport project, a large amount of marine mud has been dredged for reclamation purpose in order to save time. I hope that other reclamation projects will not be undertaken with this method. Besides, the designation of marine parks and marine reserves by the Government should never be interpreted as an indication that other areas can be polluted at will.

Mr President, the Government is now going to designate a special area as a reserve for the Chinese white dolphins, which is a special and scarce species of wild animals. But some environmentalists opined that the 1000 hectares of area initially proposed by the Government is not enough. I am also doubtful as to the effectiveness of this reserve. In fact, the Government is responsible for the protection of the marine ecology, yet the Government itself is the greatest spoiler. We must now start to rescue our sea because the destruction to the marine ecology is so serious that it has reached catastrophic proportion. Our fishermen's complaint that their catch has dropped dramatically is the most obvious evidence.

4122 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

The designation of marine parks and marine reserves is an important first forward in our effort to protect the marine ecology. I hope that the Government will continue with its effort with sincerity in protecting our sea in the future.

Mr President, the Democratic Party supports this Bill.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I am grateful to Dr the Honourable LAM Kui-chun, Chairman of the Bills Committee on the Marine Parks Bill, and to Members of the Bills Committee for their careful consideration of the Bill and the many constructive comments they made.

The Administration discussed with the Bills Committee a number of issues and concerns raised by Members and other interested parties. By and large, they relate to the definition of "new development" and the extent of development control inside marine parks and marine reserves; the issue of who is eligible to appeal against a decision of the Authority; public access to information; the implementation programme and the role of the Agriculture and Fisheries Department. The Administration has taken on board the views of the Bills Committee and I shall be moving a number of amendments to the Bill at the Committee stage. I would like to take this opportunity to respond to the points raised by Members.

Definition of "new development"

First, the definition of "new development". In determining what kind of development should be considered as "new development" to be controlled under the Bill, we have decided not to include projects already approved, that is, projects which have already obtained the necessary approvals and permissions from the relevant authorities before a draft map of the proposed marine park or marine reserve is gazetted will not be required to seek approval from the Marine Parks Authority. Under the designation procedure stipulated in the Bill, members of the public can comment on or raise objections to any proposed marine park or marine reserve. There is always a chance, therefore, that the proposed designation is cancelled or changed because of objections by members of the public. We do not think it appropriate to suspend existing works when the designation process is still ongoing and yet to be approved.

The Administration agrees, however, to tighten the definition of "new development" by deleting renewal works from the list of exceptions to the definition. Works carried out for the purpose of renewing any utility or other apparatus will thus be considered as "new development". I shall move an amendment to this effect at the Committee stage.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4123

Development control inside proposed and designated marine parks/reserves and the Board's involvement

With regard to development control inside proposed and designated marine parks and marine reserves and the Board's involvement, no new development can be carried out in designated marine parks and marine reserves without the Authority's approval under the current proposal. The same will apply to areas gazetted as proposed marine parks or marine reserves. It is our intention, if an application for approval is received, to consult the Country and Marine Parks Board before making a decision. We shall also consult the Board on applications to carry out prohibited activities inside marine parks and marine reserves. We are glad, therefore, to accept Members' suggestion to amend clauses 10 and 23(1) to make this a statutory requirement. If the Board's advice is not taken, the Authority will explain his decision to the Board.

As for repair works, the Authority's approval is also required before they can be carried out in designated marine parks and marine reserves. The Authority shall also consult the Board on any proposed repair works which may have a detrimental environmental impact. Guidelines for processing applications for repair works will be established in consultation with the Board.

The Administration is drafting subsidiary legislation to set out further details of the controls in marine parks and marine reserves. We shall soon be able to consult the Board and the relevant panels of this Council.

Appeals

On the issue of appeals in respect of new development in marine parks or marine reserves, the Bills Committee proposed that the scope of permissible appellants should be expanded to include any person who feels aggrieved by the Authority's decision. Some Members were also concerned that interested parties, such as environmental groups, should be given an opportunity to give their views on such development proposals.

As the Administration explained to the Bills Committee, the views of interested parties on new development applications will be heard and considered before a decision is made by the Authority. As Dr the Honourable LAM Kui- chun has pointed out, persons other than the applicant will in fact have at least two channels to air their views. The first is the Country and Marine Parks Board. Under clause 10, which as I mentioned earlier will be amended at the Committee stage, the Authority will be required to seek the advice of the Country and Marine Parks Board before deciding on an application. Interested parties are welcome to put their views to the Board for consideration.

The second channel is through the statutory procedures under the Foreshore and Sea bed (Reclamations) Ordinance. Under that Ordinance, any proposal to carry out works over and upon any seabed is required to be gazetted; and, under section 6, any person who considers that he has an interest,

4124 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

right or easement in or over the foreshore and sea-bed in question may raise objections to the proposal. The objections will be dealt with under well- established statutory procedures.

Access to information

As regards public access to information, the Bills Committee believes that it will be significantly enhanced by widening the representation on the Board and by making its operation more transparent. Members have suggested, for example, that the Board should open its meetings to the public and make available unclassified papers upon request. The Administration will look at how the representation on the Board can be widened. We shall also pass on Members' suggestions on improving the transparency of its operation to the Board.

The Administration further agrees with Members that as much information as possible should be given to the public. Clause 8 will be amended to require the Authority to make available additional information upon request, unless there is reasonable ground not to do so.

Implementation

Mr President, we shall begin the implementation of the marine parks programme with the designation of Hoi Ha Wan and Yan Chau Tong in northeast New Territories as marine parks and Cape D'Aguilar as a marine reserve. They have been identified by the Marine Parks and Reserves Working Group as ecologically important marine areas and should be protected as soon as possible. In particular, I would like to thank the Bills Committee for supporting the proposal to designate Cape D'Aguilar as a marine reserve.

The designation of these areas will benefit fishermen in the long run, although there are concerns on how this might affect their livelihood in the short term. While fishing will be prohibited in marine reserves, sustainable fishing will be allowed with permits inside marine parks. For those fishermen affected by the fishing ban inside marine reserves, they will be given an ex gratia allowance. Moreover, consideration is being given to installing artificial reefs in these areas. This will not only increase the diversity of marine life but also generate surplus stock which will move out from the conservation areas into other areas, thus contributing to the long-term interests of the fishing industry.

Role of the Agriculture and Fisheries Department

Reservations have also been raised about the dual roles of the Agriculture and Fisheries Department to take charge of conservation on one hand and to oversee the development of the fishing industry on the other. We understand Members' concern, but the issue has been considered carefully by both the Country Parks Board and the Marine Parks and Reserves Working Group, and

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4125

we have no disagreement with their recommendation that the Director of Agriculture and Fisheries should be the Authority under the Bill.

Mr President, conservation is a subject of growing concern in our community and rightly so. The proposed legislation, which aims to establish marine parks and marine reserves, is an important move towards greater protection of our marine environment. The present proposal has taken into account valuable suggestions by the Country Parks Board, the Bills Committee and interested parties. The designation of the first marine parks and the first marine reserve will begin upon enactment of the Bill.

Thank you, Mr President.

Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.

Bill read the Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).

Committee Stage of Bills

Council went into Committee.

CREDIT UNIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995

Clauses 1 to 12 and 14 were agreed to.

Clause 13

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr Chairman, I move that clause 13 be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.

Proposed amendment

Clause 13

That clause 13 be amended, by deleting the clause and substituting —

"13. Appeal against action of Registrar

Section 62 is amended -

(a) in subsection (1) by adding -

4126 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

"(e) under section 57(3) or 58(3), orders the

cancellation of the registration of a credit union; or

(f) makes an order under section 61D, ";

(b) in subsection (2)(a) -

(i) by repealing "suspension order" and substituting

"order under subsection (1)";

(ii) by repealing "or (d)" and substituting ", (d), (e) or

(f)".".

Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.

Question on clause 13, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.

New clause 13A Section added

Clause read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 46(6).

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr Chairman, I move that new clause 13A as set out in the paper circulated to Members be read the Second time.

Question on the Second Reading of the clause proposed, put and agreed to. Clause read the Second time.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr Chairman, I move that new clause 13A be added to the Bill.

Proposed addition

New clause 13A

That the Bill be amended, by adding —

"13A. Section added

The following is added -

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4127

"79A. Failure to comply with Registrar's order

Any person who wilfully or without any reasonable excuse fails

to comply with an order made under section 60 or 61D shall be guilty of an offence. ". ".

Question on the addition of the new clause proposed, put and agreed to.

POST-RELEASE SUPERVISION OF PRISONERS BILL

Clauses 1, 4, 9, 10 and 14 to 18 were agreed to.

Clauses 2, 3, 5 to 8, 11, 12, 13 and 19 to 22

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr Chairman, I move that the clauses specified be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.

These and subsequent amendments contain the principal improvements to the Post Release Supervision Scheme which I have already referred to in the Second Reading debate, and also some technical and clarificatory amendments. They have been discussed in detail by the Bills Committee and have received the Committee's endorsement.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Proposed amendments

Clause 2

That clause 2 be amended, by adding —

""detention facility" (拘留㆞方) means -

(a) any prison;

(b) any place or building appointed to be a detention centre under section 3 of the Detention Centres Ordinance (Cap. 239);

(c) any place or building appointed to be an addiction treatment centre under section 3 of the Drug Addiction Treatment Centres Ordinance (Cap. 244); or

(d) any place or building declared for use for the purposes of a training centre under section 3(2) of the Training Centres Ordinance (Cap. 280); ".

4128 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

Clause 3

That clause 3(e) be amended, by deleting "section 5A(2)" and substituting "section 5A".

Clause 5

That clause 5(2)(a) be amended, by deleting "重要" and substituting "適宜".

Clause 6

That clause 6 be amended, by deleting subclause (1) and substituting -

"(1) Where it appears to the Board that a prisoner to whom this Ordinance applies should be granted early release on the ground of his industry and good conduct, the Board may, if it considers that the prisoner should be subject to a period of supervision following such release, order the prisoner's early release subject to supervision under this Ordinance. ".

Clause 7

That clause 7(1)(b) be amended, by deleting "的因素後，認為有需要的或宜應" and substituting "指明的因素後，認為有需要就或適宜".

Clause 8

That clause 8(1)(a)(ii) be amended, by deleting ", in consultation with the Commissioner of Police, ".

That clause 8(2) be amended, by deleting "喪失任何減刑期" and substituting "被取消任何 期間的減刑".

Clause 11

That clause 11 be amended —

(a) in the heading, by deleting "Prisoner's right" and substituting "Right". (b) by deleting subclause (1) and substituting -

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4129

"(1) Subject to subsection (2), any person who is subject to a supervision order may, upon the making of the order or at any time after the making of the order, request the Board to vary or discharge the order. ".

(c) in subclause (2), by deleting "prisoner" and substituting "person".

Clause 12

That clause 12 be amended, by deleting "prisoner" wherever it appears and substituting "person".

Clause 13

That clause 13 be amended, by deleting subclause (1) and substituting -

"(1) Where the Board is satisfied as regards a person who is subject to a supervision order that -

(a) the person has without lawful authority or reasonable excuse failed to comply with any term or condition of the order; or

(b) because of his conduct or a change in his circumstances since his release -

(i) the person is likely to commit an arrestable

offence; or

(ii) in the case of a person who has been recalled to

prison under section 14 or 15, the person was at

the time of his recall a person likely to commit

an arrestable offence,

it may order that the supervision order be suspended for a specified period not exceeding the unexpired term of the order. ".

Clause 19

That clause 19 be amended, by deleting the clause and substituting —

"19. Provisions relating to proceedings

under sections 6 and 12

4130 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

(1) An order shall not be made by the Board under section 6 or 12 unless -

(a) not less than 14 days before the Board's consideration of the making of the order the prisoner has been provided with a copy

of all relevant material to be considered by the Board in

connection with the possible making of the order; and

(b) the prisoner has been allowed an opportunity to make written representations to the Board.

(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1)(a), where the Board reasonably considers that the disclosure of any part of the material referred to in that paragraph would be likely -

(a) to jeopardize the health or safety of any person;

(b) to jeopardize the security of any detention facility;

(c) to prejudice the conduct of any lawful investigation into an offence,

the Board shall not be required to provide the prisoner with a copy of that part of the material but shall, if it elects not to provide a copy of any part of the material in accordance with this subsection, provide such information concerning that material as may reasonably be disclosed to the prisoner having regard to the matters mentioned in paragraphs (a) to (c); and subsection (1)(a) shall apply to the provision of such information as it applies to the provision of a copy of the relevant material to be considered by the Board.

(3) Nothing in subsection (2) shall be construed as authorizing the Board not to provide the prisoner with sufficient material, or sufficient information concerning the material, as will enable him to appreciate the general nature of the case against him.

(4) Any material required to be provided to a prisoner under subsection (1)(a) shall be provided to him in such of the official languages as he may, upon being invited so to do, indicate to be his preferred language for those purposes. ".

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4131 Clause 20

That clause 20 be amended —

(a) by renumbering it as clause 20(1).

(b) by adding -

"(2) In giving any direction to the Board under subsection (1)(b), the Governor may make recommendations as to -

(a) the conditions as to supervision; and

(b) the period for which the order shall remain in force,

to be specified in the order, and if the order subsequently made by the Board does not specify such conditions or period the Board shall submit a report to the Governor setting out the reasons for the conditions and period specified in its order. ".

Clause 21

That clause 21(2)(j) be amended, by deleting "19(b)" and substituting "19(1)(b)".

Clause 22

That clause 22 be amended, by deleting the clause and substituting -

"22. Transitional

(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Ordinance applies to persons sentenced before the date on which it comes into operation ("the commencement date") as it applies to persons sentenced on or after that date.

(2) For the purposes of section 7(1)(c), and subject to that provision, the period to be specified in a supervision order in the case of a person sentenced before the commencement date shall not exceed whichever of the following is the greater, that is to say -

(a) a period equal to half the period beginning with the commencement date and ending with the date of the person's

release as calculated in accordance with section 6(2) and taking

into

4132 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

account the portion of the total period referred to in that

subsection that the Board proposes to specify in the case of the

person; or

(b) 6 months. ".

Question on the amendments proposed, put and agreed to.

Question on clauses 2, 3, 5 to 8, 11, 12, 13 and 19 to 22, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.

New clause 13A Provision of materials in

proceedings under

section 13

New clause 13B Assistance at hearings

under section 13

Clauses read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 46(6).

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr Chairman, I move that new clauses 13A and 13B as set out in the paper circulated to Members be read the Second time.

Again these clauses reflect some of the improvements to the Scheme which I have explained earlier in my speech at the Second Reading debate.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Question on the Second Reading of the clauses proposed, put and agreed to. Clauses read the Second time.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr Chairman, I move that new clauses 13A and 13B be added to the Bill.

Proposed additions

New clauses 13A and 13B

That the Bill be amended, by adding —

"13A. Provision of materials in proceedings

under section 13

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4133

(1) An order shall not be made by the Board under section 13 unless -

(a) not less than 7 days before the day appointed for the

purposes of paragraph (b) the person under supervision

has been provided with a copy of all relevant material

to be considered by the Board in connection with the

possible making of the order; and

(b) the person under supervision has been allowed an

opportunity, on a day appointed for the purpose, to

appear before the Board and be heard or to make

representations to the Board.

(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1)(a), where the Board reasonably considers that the disclosure of any part of the material referred to in that paragraph would be likely -

(a) to jeopardize the health or safety of any person;

(b) to jeopardize the security of any detention facility;

(c) to prejudice the conduct of any lawful investigation into

an offence,

the Board shall not be required to provide the person under supervision with a copy of that part of the material but shall, if it elects not to provide a copy of any part of the material in accordance with this subsection, provide such information concerning that material as may reasonably be disclosed to the person having regard to the matters mentioned in paragraphs (a) to (c); such information as it applies to the provision of a copy of the relevant material to be considered by the Board.

(3) Nothing in subsection (2) shall be construed as authorizing the Board not to provide the person under supervision with sufficient material, or sufficient information concerning the material, as will enable him to appreciate the general nature of the case against him.

(4) Any material required to be provided to a person under subsection (1)(a) shall be provided to him in such of the official languages as he may, upon being invited so to do, indicate to be his preferred language for those purposes.

(5) The Board may, where good cause is shown as to why any part of the material to which subsection (1)(a) applies could not have been provided earlier, make an order under section 13 notwithstanding

4134 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995

that such part of the material was provided to the person less than 7 days before the day appointed for the purposes of subsection (1)(b).

13B. Assistance at hearings

under section 13

(1) At any hearing under section 13 at which the person under supervision is present the Board shall, subject to subsection (2), permit him to be assisted by a person of his choice, and a person so chosen is entitled -

(a) to be present at the hearing at all times when the person

under supervision is present;

(b) to advise the person under supervision throughout the

hearing; and

(c) to address the Board on behalf of the person under

supervision.

(2) The following persons are not eligible to assist a person under supervision for the purposes of subsection (1) -

(a) any person who is or has at any time been subject to an

order for detention under the Mental Health Ordinance

(Cap. 136);

(b) any person who is serving a sentence of imprisonment;

(c) any person who has served a sentence of imprisonment

in Hong Kong. ".

Question on the addition of the new clauses proposed, put and agreed to.

MARINE PARKS BILL

Clauses 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 15, 16, 18, 19, 20 and 24 to 34 were agreed to.

Clauses 2, 4, 8 to 14, 17, 21, 22 and 23

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Chairman, I move that the clauses of the Bill be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4135 The major amendments are that:

(a) clauses 2 and 22(1) are amended to exclude renewal works from the exception in the definition of new development;

(b) clauses 8(1)(b) and 8(3) are amended to require the Authority to make available for public inspection, in addition to a draft map, other information relating to a proposed marine park or proposed marine reserve and to give notice to this effect in the Gazette; new clauses 8(5) and 8(6) are added to require the Authority to furnish additional information on the proposed marine park or marine reserve upon request and the Authority may refuse the request only on reasonable ground.

(c) clauses 9(3) and 22(3) are amended to make provision for the Authority to order in writing any person who carries out new development within any proposed or designated marine park or marine reserve without prior approval of the Authority or without compliance with any condition of approval to stop work or to carry out restoration work.

(d) new clauses 9(4), 9(5), 22(4) and 22(5) are added to enable the Government to carry out and recover the cost of any remedial work required;

(e) new clauses 9(6) and 22(6) are added and clause 21(2) is amended to specify a daily fine for each day an offence is proved to have continued;

(f) clause 10(3) is amended to require the Authority to seek the advice of the Board on any application for approval to carry out new development;

(g) clause 11(1) is amended to allow appeal on any conditions of approval for new development;

(h) clause 23(1) is amended to require the Authority to seek the advice of the Board before granting a licence or permit for prohibited activities; and

(i) new clauses 11(3) and 23(3) are added to suspend the decision of the Authority against which an appeal is brought.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

4136 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 Proposed amendments

Clause 2

That clause 2 be amended, in the definition of "new development", by deleting ", repairing or renewing" and substituting "or repairing".

Clause 4

That clause 4(b)(ii) be amended, by deleting "promoting" and substituting "managing the".

Clause 8

That clause 8 be amended —

(a) in subclause (1)(b), by adding ", and other information (if any) relating to the proposed marine park or proposed marine reserve, as the case may be, " after "draft map".

(b) in subclause (3), by adding after "draft map" -

", together with other information relating to the proposed marine park or proposed marine reserve, as the case may be, as the Authority considers appropriate, ".

(c) by adding -

"(5) Any person may in writing request the Authority to

provide him with further information relating to the proposed marine park or proposed marine reserve, as the case may be, which has not already been made available for inspection under subsection (3).

(6) Upon receipt of a request under subsection (5), the

Authority may -

(a) provide the required information to the person

making the request; or

(b) on any reasonable ground, refuse to provide

such information. ".

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 4137 Clause 9

That clause 9 be amended, by deleting subclause (3) and substituting —

"(3) Where any new development has been carried out or is being carried out within any proposed marine park or proposed marine reserve without the prior approval of the Authority or in breach of or without compliance with any condition imposed on the granting of approval by the Authority under section 10(3)(b), the Authority may by order in writing served on -

(a) the person carrying out such new development; or

(b) the person for whom such new development has been or is being carried out or his agent,

require -

(i) the carrying out of such new development to cease forthwith; and

(ii) where appropriate, remedial and restoration work to be carried out at that person's expense within such time as may be specified in the order.

(4) If a person fails to comply with any requirement under subsection (3)(i) or (ii), the Authority may, without further notice, carry out, or cause to be carried out, such work as may be necessary to ensure that the requirement is complied with.

(5) The cost of any work carried out, or caused to be carried out, by the Authority under subsection (4) shall be recoverable, as a civil debt due to the Government, from the person or persons referred to in subsection (3)(a) or (b) or both irrespective of on whom the order under subsection (3) has been served.

(6) Any person who -

(a) carries out any new development within any proposed marine park or proposed marine reserve without the prior approval of

the Authority; or

(b) fails to comply with an order served on him under subsection (3),

commits an offence and is liable on conviction -

4138 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 31 May 1995 (i) to a fine at level 5 and to imprisonment for 1 year; and

(ii) to a fine of $5,000 for each day during which it is proved to the satisfaction of the court that the offence has continued. ".

Clause 10

That clause 10(3) be amended, by adding ", after seeking the advice of the Board" after ", the Authority may".

Clause 11

That clause 11 be amended —

(a) in subclause (1), by deleting "section 10(3)(a)" and substituting "section 10(3)".

(b) by adding -

"(3) A decision of the Authority under section 10(3)(b) against

which an appeal is brought under subsection (1) shall be suspended in its operation as from the day on which the appeal is made until such appeal is disposed of, withdrawn or abandoned unless such suspension would, in the opinion of the Authority, be contrary to the public interest and the notice of the decision contains a statement to that effect.".

Clause 12

That clause 12 be amended, by deleting the clause.

Clause 13

That clause 13(6) be amended, in the Chinese text, by deleting paragraph (b) and substituting —

"(b) 指示總監因應該項反對的全部或部分而修訂有關的未定案㆞圖。".

Clause 14

That clause 14(b) be amended, by deleting "順應" and substituting "因應".