HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3257 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 26 April 1995
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
PRESENT
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE SIR JOHN SWAINE, C.B.E., LL.D., Q.C., J.P.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, C.B.E., J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE SIR NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, K.B.E., J.P.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D., J.P. THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P.
3258 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA
THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, O.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN
DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3259 THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO
THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALFRED TSO SHIU-WAI
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
ABSENT
THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI
REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD
IN ATTENDANCE
MR ANTHONY GORDON EASON, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
MR NICHOLAS NG WING-FUI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS
MR DOMINIC WONG SHING-WAH, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING
MRS KATHERINE FOK LO SHIU-CHING, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE
3260 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
MR PETER LAI HING-LING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
MR KWONG KI-CHI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY
MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY
MRS LESSIE WEI CHUI KIT-YEE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES
MR KEITH KWOK KA-KEUNG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR WORKS
THE DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL
MR LAW KAM-SANG
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3261 PAPERS
The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject
Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No. Building (Energy Efficiency) Regulation..................................................... 144/95
Dutiable Commodities (Amendment)
Regulation 1995 ................................................................................... 145/95
Firearms and Ammunition (Amendment)
Regulation 1995 ................................................................................... 146/95
Firearms and Ammunition (Storage Fees)
(Amendment) Order 1995 .................................................................... 147/95
Massage Establishments (Amendment)
Regulation 1995 ................................................................................... 148/95
Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance
(Public Pleasure Grounds) (Amendment of Fourth
Schedule) (No. 3) Order 1995.............................................................. 149/95
Public Swimming Pools (Urban Council)
(Amendment) Bylaw 1995 ................................................................... 150/95
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)
(Bankruptcy Ordinance) Order............................................................. (C)31/95
Sessional Papers 1994-95
No. 77 - Report of changes to the approved Estimates of Expenditure approved during the third quarter of 1994-95 Public Finance Ordinance : Section 8
No. 78 - Mass Transit Railway Corporation Annual Report 1994 No. 79 - Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation Annual Report 1994
No. 80 - Report of the Director of Audit on the results of value or money audits March 1995 Director of Audit's Report No. 24
3262 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 OATH
Mr Michael SUEN Ming-Yeung took the Legislative Council Oath.
ADDRESSES
Mass Transit Railway Corporation Annual Report 1994
FINANCIAL SECRETARY: Mr President, in accorance with section 16(4) of the Mass Transit Railway Corporation (MTRC) Ordinance, I table the annual report and accounts of the Corporation for the year ended 31 December 1994.
In 1994, the MTR carried 804 million passengers, 3% more than 1993. Fare revenue increased by 12.8% to $4,315 million, while total operating costs increased by 13.5% to $2,236 million. Interest and finance charges were $1,269 million, 1.4% higher than last year.
The Corporation earned a net profit of $1,038 million compared with $735 million in 1993. Cumulative losses were reduced to $1,295 million.
We are very pleased that following the signing of the Agreed Minute on the financing for the Airport and the Airport Railway, the Finance Committee's approval was obtained last November for a total equity of $23.7 billion to be committed for the Airport Railway project. This has since enabled the Corporation to make significant progress in letting some of the major contracts, whilst discussion on the Financial Support Agreement continues. It is encouraging to note that the Corporation expects to complete the project within budget.
The Corporation is committed to providing a safe, reliable and efficient service and has plans to spend $8 billion on major improvement projects by the year 2000. In an effort to achieve greater transparency and accountability, it has published two booklets to provide Members with more financial and operational information. Performance pledges have once again been set and the results made public.
I would like to pay tribute to Mr Hamish MATHERS, who has retired last month, and thank the Board, the management and the staff of the MTRC for another fruitful year and wish the new Chairman and the Corporation continuing success.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3263 Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation Annual Report 1994
FINANCIAL SECRETARY: Mr President, in accordance with section 14(5) of the Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation Ordinance, I table the annual report and accounts of the Corporation for the year ended 31 December 1994.
The Corporation maintained a strong financial position in 1994. Operating revenue stood at $2,668 million, an increase of 10% over 1993. Including the income from property development, net profit for the year was $1,124 million. No dividend was paid to the Government this year after fully taking into account the Corporation's cash flow requirements and investment needs, particularly arising from the invitation to the Corporation to submit proposals to construct the Western Corridor project announced in the Railway Development Strategy.
During 1994, major improvements were made to enhance customer service on both the Kowloon-Canton Railway (KCR) and the Light Rail Transit (LRT) System, the two core services operated by the Corporation. Punctuality was improved, with the KCR achieving an average of 99.4% and the LRT an average of 98.9%.
The KCR carried 220 million passengers in 1994, an increase of 7% over 1993. Of these, 40 million passengers travelled to and from Lo Wu, an increase of 8%. Through train traffic between Kowloon and Guangzhou decreased by 14% to 2.5 million. To improve passenger comfort, the waiting areas at Lo Wu Station have been enclosed and air conditioned. Work to enlarge the subway at Kowloon Tong Station linking the KCR and MTR has been progressing well and is near completion.
The LRT carried 130 million passengers in 1994, an increase of 11%. During the year, Phase 3 of the Tin Shui Wai Extension was completed and came into service in March 1995. Platforms at various stops were widened, platform shelters extended, and more service information was provided to passengers.
During the year, the Corporation's freight services faced very keen competition, with modest declines recorded for inbound traffic from 2.3 million tonnes to 2.1 million tonnes, and for outbound traffic from 1.2 million tonnes to 1.1 million tonnes.
The Corporation has planned to invest $7 billion in infrastructure and service improvements by the end of the decade. A number of major projects are already underway.
To summarize, the Corporation has continued to operate successfully and credit goes to the Chairman, the Managing Board, as well as the management and the staff of the Corporation for their achievements in the past year.
3264 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Air Quality Studies
1. MR JAMES TO asked (in Cantonese): Mr President, regarding the air quality studies conducted by the Environmental Protection Department, will the Government inform this Council of:
(a) the findings of such studies in various districts of the territory in the past three years;
(b) the causes of air pollution; and
(c) the measures which will be taken to abate air pollution?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,
(a) Air quality problems in Hong Kong can be described in terms of four key air pollutants: sulphur dioxide (SO2), nitrogen dioxide (NO2), total suspended particulates (TSP) and respirable suspended particulates (RSP). I will briefly summarize the results of air quality monitoring recorded at our eight monitoring stations over the past three years. Details are given in the table attached to the written version of this answer (Table 1).
Sulphur dioxide has been recorded at low levels throughout the territory. The yearly averages for all monitoring stations have been well within the air quality objective.
Nitrogen dioxide has been recorded at higher levels, with concentrations within the air quality objective at around 80%, with one exception. Because motor vehicles are a major source of nitrogen dioxide, levels tend to be high in districts with heavy road traffic, for example, Mong Kok.
TSP and RSP are dust in the air. Levels of TSP have been high and the air quality objective has been exceeded at all stations, except Sha Tin. However, it is RSP which are of more concern in terms of health effects because they are small enough to breathe into the lungs. Levels of RSP have generally been within the air quality objective in Sha Tin, Tai Po and Kwai Chung; but in districts with heavy traffic, for example, Kwun Tong, Sham Shui Po and Mong Kok, the concentrations of RSP have been higher than the air quality objective.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3265
(b) As for the causes of air pollution, the fuels burnt in factories and used by motor vehicles are the major causes of sulphur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and particulates; dust emissions from construction works and open burning activities also contribute to the particulates problem.
(c) The Government is determined to improve air quality in Hong Kong. The Air Pollution Control (Fuel Restriction) Regulations introduced in 1990 reduced the sulphur content of liquid industrial fuel to 0.5% by weight and brought ambient sulphur dioxide concentrations well within the air quality objective. A number of other measures have also helped reduce polluting emissions. These include the extension of controls on specified processes under the Air Pollution Control Ordinance; the introduction of unleaded petrol in 1991; the requirement for all vehicles imported since 1992 to comply with stringent vehicle emission standards and newly imported petrol vehicles be equipped with catalytic converters; and the smoky vehicle control programme. In addition, with effect from 1 April 1995, we have introduced cleaner diesel fuel for vehicles and even more stringent vehicle emission standards.
We are also working towards the introduction of additional measures to ensure that the air quality objectives are achieved. The measures being considered include:
* control of construction dust;
* control of dust and smoke from open burning;
* higher penalties for smoky vehicles;
* requiring light duty vehicles to use unleaded petrol and catalytic converters;
* stricter inspection to ensure diesel vehicles are well maintained; * use of alternative fuels for vehicles in the longer term; and * more environmentally friendly transport policies.
3266 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
Table 1 - Air Quality Monitoring Results at Eight Stations
1992 to 1994
(all results are yearly averages in microgram per cubic metre)
1992 1993 1994
(provisional)
Sulphur Dioxide (Air Quality Objective = 80)
Kwun Tong 21 31 25 Sha Tin 8 10 10 Tai Po 12 - - Sham Shui Po 12 - 28 Central/Western - 24 19 Tsuen Wan 36 - 30 Kwai Chung 22 33 25 Mong Kok 49 43 54
Nitrogen Dioxide (Air Quality Objective = 80)
Kwun Tong 74 66 60 Sha Tin 40 - 40 Tai Po 57 42 46 Sham Shui Po 50 - 65 Central/Western 50 50 53 Tsuen Wan 63 - 60 Kwai Chung 44 48 46 Mong Kok 75 76 88
Total Suspended Particulates (Air Quality Objective = 80)
Kwun Tong 104 104 106 Sha Tin 81 74 70 Tai Po 87 91 86 Sham Shui Po 124 117 101 Central/Western - 81 87 Tsuen Wan 107 - 99 Kwai Chung 91 88 87 Mong Kok 159 148 157
Respirable Suspended Particulates (Air Quality Objective = 55)
Kwun Tong 72 64 58 Sha Tin 51 41 49
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3267
1992 1993 1994
(provisional)
Tai Po 53 50 50 Sham Shui Po 71 68 61 Central/Western - 55 56 Tsuen Wan 64 - 62 Kwai Chung 55 53 51 Mong Kok 71 65 69
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, from the Administration's reply, we know that districts with the worst air pollution are located at Kwun Tong, Sham Shui Po and Mong Kok. I am a directly elected Board member of the latter two districts. The results that we now have indicate that the Air Quality Objectives have been exceeded and the situation is getting worse at a worrying rate. In paragraph (c) of the Administration's reply, the Administration mentions that it is considering the introduction of a number of measures to ensure that the Air Quality Objectives are achieved. When will these objectives be achieved? I want a definite reply, such as the year 2001 or 2005. How long after the implementation of the seven proposals can these objectives be achieved? Can the Administration give us a definite answer? If these objectives cannot be achieved by the target date, will the Administration conduct interim reviews? Also, will it strengthen the said measures to improve air quality?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I think if we are to tackle this kind of problem, we clearly need to have a programme which contains a series of measures which will attack the programme over time and which will produce results, and I believe that is what we have in place. We will, of course, and we always are prepared to consider new ideas which may contribute, but I have to caution that new ideas themselves take time to examine and put in a form that can be actually used and then to introduce. One of the disadvantages with dealing with environmental problems is that it is quite difficult to do so without affecting the interests of parties who are producing the pollution. So we do need to proceed in a way which will enable adjustments to be made in a reasonable fashion. We need to balance a requirement to move along as quickly as possible for the sake of the community's health, and at the same time, not to destroy the livelihood of those who might be affected by such measures.
To answer the question about timing for the measures I referred to, we do have timing in mind for most of those as follows:
- control of construction dust emissions - late 1995
- control of dust and smoke from open burning - late 1995
3268 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 - higher penalties for smoky vehicles - 1996-97
- requiring all light duty vehicles to use unleaded petrol and catalytic converters - 1996-97
- a stricter inspection to ensure diesel vehicles are well maintained - 1996-97
- use of alternative fuels for vehicles in the longer term - no fixed timing but ongoing deliberations
- environmentally friendly transport policies - again ongoing discussion between the relative policy branches and the departments that would need to be involved in introducing such policies.
PRESIDENT: Not answered, Mr TO?
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary has not indicated when the Air Quality Objectives will be achieved. I did not ask when the policies will be implemented. I asked when the objectives will be achieved after the policies are implemented. Has the Administration set a target date for these objectives?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Yes, Mr President, I would be delighted to be able to give a target date for the achievement of the air quality objectives. But I think Members will understand that with a compendium of measures of this kind, stretched out over a period of time and given, as I mentioned earlier, the need to take careful account of the livelihood interests of those who would be affected by control measures, what we will continue to do is to monitor the pace at which we move towards the achievement of the air quality objectives to seek to accelerate our move towards achieving them, and introduce further measures if the measures we have already contemplated do not move us fast enought towards our objective.
MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr President. I live in Kwun Tong district where the air quality is very bad. I wonder if I could sue the Administration for compensation in future. Just now, the Administration mentioned some proposals to improve air quality, and they have been talking about such proposals for a number of years. However, as can be seen from the relevant data, Kwun Tong district has exceeded the Air Quality Objectives in total suspended particulates and in respirable suspended particulates for three consecutive years. I want to ask the Administration a very practical question. Would the Administration adopt measures targeted at certain categories of strong pollutants in areas where pollution is worst, including, as I mentioned a
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3269
moment ago, Kwun Tong district where there are some 500 000 residents? For example, the Administration may conduct close monitoring or it may adopt temporary means such as strengthening prosecution actions against lorries in the district and inspection of construction sites, and requesting site owners to do more water-spraying and not to burn wood indiscriminately. In view of the gravity of the problem, would the Administration adopt stricter measures at pollution black spots? Adopting stricter measures at pollution black spots will be more effective than waiting for the implementation of territory-wide measures in 1997, 1998 or 2000.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I am certainly prepared to consider whether pinpoint-targeting of particular areas would assist in our overall programme. I think, however, we should not lose sight of the need for our programme to be an overall programme since one of the major sources of pollution is clearly moving vehicles, but, as I say, we will consider whether targeting of that kind would assist.
It might help perhaps if I mention here that the most difficult, I think, of the sources of pollution is respirable suspended particulates (RSP). In Kwun Tong the air quality objective is 55, Members may know by looking at the table I provided. In Kwun Tong over the three-year period, there has been a reduction from 72 in 1992, to 64 in 1993, to 58 in 1994; so the indications there are perhaps that we are within range of hitting the air quality objective. And I think if we examine the table, we will find that there have also been improvements. For example, just to pick out Sham Shui Po, in TSP the range of improvement towards an air quality objective of 80 has been from 124 in 1992, to 117 in 1993, to 101 in 1994. So again, we are moving in the right direction.
MR LEE CHEUK YAN (in Cantonese): One of the measures contemplated by the Administration involves requiring light duty vehicles to use unleaded petrol. Nevertheless, as we all know, a very important fleet of vehicles in Hong Kong, namely, the buses of the two franchised bus companies, is still using diesel oil. Is the Administration prepared to hold discussions with the two franchised bus companies to convince them to switch to unleaded petrol for all their buses in order to abate air pollution?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I think as far as targets go, the very much larger and pervasive fleet of light vehicles, both passenger and goods, must be the main target and as far as the larger public transport vehicles are concerned, they can be a target. I think the difficulty here is that whereas there is plenty of known technology which is available to replace light vehicles, the same does not apply as far as heavy vehicles, including passenger buses, are concerned. So I am quite
3270 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
prepared to take the issue up with the bus companies. But as I say in terms of targets which are achievable, I think the light vehicles target is likely to be more effective in the overall approach.
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, it is well known that the air quality monitoring stations are not at street level whereas pedestrians have to walk at street level where the air quality is likely to be much worse. It is also obvious that there will be no immediate improvement in the air quality to achieve the air quality objectives. I would like to ask whether the Government is going to issue breathing masks to our inhabitants, especially our most vulnerable, that is, the young population, in order to protect their health?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, the introduction of breathing masks is not among the measures that we are considering.
Inaccurate Information on Electoral Roll
2. DR YEUNG SUM asked (in Cantonese): It is learnt that during the recent Municipal Council election, a number of candidates came across various inaccurate information in the electoral roll while making their rounds of home visits. As such problem had been identified during the 1991 Legislative Council election, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the estimated percentage of inaccurate information in the electoral roll;
(b) what methods the Government adopted during the past three years to rectify the inaccurate information in the electoral roll; and
(c) of the reasons for the recurrence of the same problem in the recent election?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Mr President, under the existing system, an electoral roll is compiled annually on a roll-over basis and published before 8 August of each year. Existing entries are carried forward to the next roll, after updating changes of electors' particulars as known to the Registration and Electoral Office (REO). New entries are also added as the new roll is compiled. Deletion of an entry from the roll is effected only after going through certain statutory safeguards to ensure that an elector is not disenfranchised lightly. An electoral roll comes into force on the date of its publication and will remain in force until the publication of a new roll in the following year. There is no interim adjustment.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3271
The current electoral roll which was used for the September 1994 District Board elections and the March 1995 Municipal Council elections was published on 1 August 1994 and it reflected the position as at that point in time. Given the population mobility in Hong Kong, it is inevitable that some of the information on the current electoral roll has become outdated since its publication last year. The information can only be updated when a new electoral roll is published in August this year, in time for use in the Legislative Council elections in September.
In the recent Municipal Council elections in March, some 120 000 of the official election mail were returned undelivered to the Registration and Electoral Office. In addition, the Registration and Electoral Office discovered about 50 000 suspected cases of incorrect personal particulars in the current electoral roll through its earlier updating and matching exercises. Thus, on the basis of the information available to us, about 170 000 out of the 2.45 million entries on the current electoral roll are suspected to be outdated. This represents about 7% of the total electorate. Even allowing for other cases of wrong information not known to us, it is estimated that inaccuracy of the current electoral roll should at most be not more than 10%.
We attach great importance to maintaining the accuracy of the electoral roll. However, under the existing system, the accuracy of the electoral roll depends, to a large extent, on the initiative of the electors themselves to report to the REO of any changes, but the REO arranges a series of other measures to verify the data.
The REO arranges intensive publicity to encourage and remind electors to report changes of particulars. For example, in the 1994 voter registration exercise, we obtained and updated information of over 330 000 electors on the electoral roll.
In the annual compilation of the new electoral roll, the REO takes active steps to trace the whereabouts of electors who are suspected to have changed addresses. Through this process of vetting, latest information obtained from electors would be reflected in the new electoral roll.
Apart from updating the roll in response to information provided by electors, the REO has also adopted a pro-active approach to update the roll through special matching exercises. The electors' particulars on the roll are matched against records kept by the Registration of Person's Office, the Housing Department, the Housing Society, the Transport Department and the Post Office. Where more current information appears on these records, the electoral roll would be updated accordingly.
I am sure Members will appreciate that, despite all the measures taken by the Government to update the electoral roll, ultimately our electoral roll can only be as accurate as our electors want it to be. It is our civic duty to register
3272 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
as an elector and it is our obligation to inform the REO of any changes of particulars after we have registered.
DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Mr President, given Hong Kong's high population mobility, the Government relies primarily on citizens' initiative to report any change of particulars, which, however, they seldom do. Comparatively speaking, the Government may find it easier to obtain information of those electors living in public rental housing (PRH) by referring to the household register of the Housing Department (HD), than to obtain information of those electors living in private domestic properties. We also find that there are more inaccurate information about electors living in private domestic properties. Will the Government take any specific measures in this connection?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Mr President, in my main reply I explained how the REO managed to maintain as accurate as possible the information contained in the electoral roll. Dr the Honourable YEUNG has rightly pointed out that it is more difficult to secure accurate information from electors living in private domestic properties. However, we have also checked with information kept in other government departments to enable us to update, to a certain extent, information of electors living in private domestic properties. The information of the electors living in PRH is of course more accurate, because we can obtain the latest and the most accurate information either from the Housing Authority or the Housing Society.
MRS ELSIE TU: Mr President, some electros complained that they did report their change of address, but as the Secretary's answer indicates, no changes are made from 8 August, until the following August. Therefore, many addresses may be wrong by the time the Municipal Councils elections take place in March, that is, half a year later. Is there any reason why the voting list cannot be corrected by means of producing a supplementary list before the Municipal councils elections in March? The present system discourages voters from fulfilling their civic responsibilities.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, as I mentioned in my main answer, there is no provision in our present arrangement for interim adjustment of the electoral roll in between the two annual adjustment exercises. Let me explain the reason why this is not practicable.
The compilation of a new electoral roll involves a very elaborate procedure in order to ensure its accuracy and the transparency of the whole system. In updating an electoral roll, the REO has to undertake a number of steps.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3273
Firstly, it has to make intensive follow-up on the electors' information obtained from the preceding election, either through feedback from candidates who have first-hand knowledge about the electorate that they contacted in their household visits, or from mail that was sent to addresses and returned.
Secondly, the Registration and Electoral Officer would then conduct a vetting exercise with a view to deleting the incorrect entries and then it has to undertake a formal inquiry procedure by sending out formal letters to electors, in case there are suspicions of incorrect particulars. It is only when this formal inquiry procedure is completed and there is clear evidence that an elector's particulars are incorrect, then we would take action to delete that elector's entry from the electoral roll. This is really to ensure that you do not disenfranchise a person lightly. You have to go through the step of getting confirmation.
Thirdly, the Registration and Electoral Officer would then register new electors who apply through our normal annual voter registration exercise, or who have turned 18 and whose particulars are then available, and we will register the individuals on a new electoral roll.
Fourthly, we would then encourage and remind the registered electors to report changes of particulars and update the electoral roll when we have got information that he has moved on to a different address.
It is only after the various steps have been taken to enable us to compile and publish a provisional register for public inspection, after the publication of which there is a period of time that we must allow for members of the public to appeal against an entry or to correct wrong entries in order to ensure that the final register would be appropriate and correct, then finally we would publish a final register before 8 August of every year.
So the process is quite elaborate and in between each step, we have to allow adequate time for the elector and the public to either submit information or to ensure that the information is correct. So if we were to go for an interim adjustment in between elections, you would inevitably have to compromise the various steps that are required and time really does not allow us to do that. So this explains why, say in last year, for the September district board election, obviously the information was quite accurate and quite up to date because the register was only published in August, a few weeks before the election. But by the time you came to the March Municipal Councils election, obviously some of the date in the old register could be out of date, but there is no process whereby we could do an interim adjustment. But for the September election this year, obviously again with the new electoral roll published in August, we should have a fairly accurate electoral roll.
MR ALBERT CHAN asked (in Cantonese): The Government may have thousands of excuses when they are determined not to do something. The first thing I want to point out is that from my experience the inaccuracy rate of the
3274 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
electoral roll is definitely more than 10% than that claimed by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs. My own estimate for the Tsuen Wan district is more than 20%. At present, voter registration relies on the information provided by citizens or on the REO to obtain information from other government departments, like the HD, for cross reference. However, during our home visits, some electors' families told us the electors had already passed away some years ago. So how could the deceased possibly report themselves to the REO? Nevertheless, year after year the names of those who have already passed away would appear on the electoral roll, while we would, much to their families' annoyance, keep on visiting their home year after year. Are there any ways the Government could delete names of the deceased from the electoral roll, lest we should add to their families' annoyance and arouse again their bereavement?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Mr President, I mentioned in my main answer that the REO would take initiative to check against information obtained from other government departments, including the Registration of Person's Office, and so the information contained in the Death Register Book is also available to us. We are also working through the electoral roll with a view to identifying citizens who have passed away over the past few years but whose names still appear in the roll. As a matter of fact, it is our standard practice to check against the roll upon receiving information from the Registration of Person's Office about a deceased citizen; but we certainly will have to wait till the next updating of the roll before we could have their names deleted. The Honourable CHAN said a moment ago that, in their electioneering activities, political parties or electoral candidates would find out some information are inaccurate, to which I would say that their contributions to the REO as regards these information are most welcome. If such cases happen again this year, please do come and tell us immediately, so that it will not happen again next year. I believe that we have to adopt a "multi-barrelled" approach, that is, citizens should report to us any change of particulars while we would take initiative to check against information from other departments, and political parties and election candidates may also render us assistance.
MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs claimed that the inaccuracy rate was only 10%, but I believe that the figure is definitely somewhere between 10% to 30% in newly developing areas and in old areas. Will the Government launch another voter registration exercise to obtain more accurate information?
If not, will the Government send registered mail to electors and ask them to sign and return them in order to ascertain their existence and to delete their names in case they are no longer there? This can ensure that when the election is held in September we will have an accurate electoral roll. Also, the Government may secure a higher voter turn-out rate in future because where the voter turn-out rate was always at the lower end it may probably be due to the existence of an inaccuracy rate of as high as 25% to 30%. Will the Government consider my advice?
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SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to thank the Honourable Mrs Peggy LAM for her advice, and we certainly will take whatever practical ways to improve the accuracy of the electoral roll. Mrs LAM just said that there may be some discrepancies shown in the information between newly developing areas and old areas. That certainly is true, owing to moving population. Therefore, when we are working on this, we always give particular attention to overtly large scale population shifts. Meanwhile, when we check against information obtained from other government departments, for example, information about PRH residents, we will also be particular attentive to the information of new PRH tenants to facilitate updating.
PRESIDENT: Not answered, Mrs LAM?
MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs has not really answered my question. Will the Government send registered mail to ascertain that the electors are still alive?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): If it is feasible we will consider this suggestion. However, we have to take into account the quantities involved and the resources available. Right now we are sending out ordinary mails, and we will consider, under special circumstances, the Honourable Mrs LAM's suggestion.
Interview of Witnesses by Independent Police Complaints Council
3. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Cantonese): Mr President, in regard to the Independent Police Complaints Council's practice of interviewing witnesses, will the Government inform this Council of the procedures involved and the purposes of such a practice, and whether it has achieved its intended results?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, as part of a package of measures to improve the present system for handling complaints against the police, the Administration introduced the Interviewing Witnesses Scheme for members of the Independent Police Complaints Council (IPCC) in July 1994. The first interview was conducted in October 1994. So far, 13 witnesses involved in six cases have been invited for interview and 10 of them have agreed to be interviewed.
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The main purpose of the Scheme is to improve the ability of the IPCC to monitor investigations conducted by the Complaints Against Police Office (CAPO). The intention of the Scheme is to enable Members to clarify matters with witnesses, but not to take over CAPO's investigatory role.
The IPCC has full discretion to decide who should be invited for interview, including complainants. Interviews are conducted by a panel, consisting of two Council members supported by staff of the Council's Secretariat. Only one witness is interviewed at a time and interviews are conducted in private. Since the interviews are solely to clarify areas of doubt, witnesses are not required to sign or to acknowledge any documents. The panel then prepares a record of the interview for consideration by the full Council. Where necessary, the Council will follow up with CAPO on the information obtained through the interviews.
The Scheme is very useful and has helped members of the IPCC fulfill their independent monitoring role. Through these interviews, the Council can clarify ambiguities in statements given by witnesses or allow them to elaborate on their side of the story. This valuable information cannot be readily obtained from scrutiny of the files or from correspondence with CAPO. In fact, these interviews have so far enabled the IPCC to re examine the classification of four complaint cases and to confirm the findings in two other cases.
The IPCC, together with the Administration, would keep the interviewing system under review to see if any improvements are warranted in the future.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, of the six cases mentioned by the Secretary for Security in the first paragraph of his reply, I participated in two cases which involved six witnesses. It is worth noting that each case involved police officers. The police officers in one case did not keep the appointment. As a result, we fixed another appointment and he was late for that appointment. He was not just five or 10 minutes late but was very late. In the other case, four police officers were supposed to show up but only three came and they were very late too. Under such circumstances, does it mean that the police are not happy with this Scheme? If not, what will the Government do to improve the situation?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, attendance of witnesses requested by the IPCC is entirely voluntary. The IPCC cannot compel witnesses to attend interviews. Of the three witnesses who turned down the IPCC's invitation, two of them, including one complainant, said that they could not spare the time; the other case, a police officer, said that he did not wish to attend. So therefore the question of refusal to attend interviews is not one which is solely restricted to police officers.
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The details of the Scheme were explained to all Police District Staff Relations Officers in August 1994, at a briefing by the IPCC Secretariat; this was supplemented by an internal circular memorandum issued by the Commissioner of Police explaining the rationale of the Scheme. While attendance is entirely voluntary, police officers and of course other members of the public, are encouraged to do so in their own interest. Nothing, I emphasize, should however be construed from the fact that a witness agrees or disagrees to attend an interview.
MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the present arrangement for interviews with witnesses is initiated by the IPCC. Since the Government considers the Scheme very effective, will the Government inform this Council whether it will consider extending the scope of the Scheme to let complainants or the interested parties (that is, the witnesses) take the initiative to request meeting with the IPCC so that the IPCC can be more independent and can get in touch with more witnesses to further open up the tightly sealed system of "the police investigating the police"?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, first of all, I should emphasize that the purpose of the Interviewing Witnesses Scheme is to improve the IPCC's ability to monitor CAPO investigations. Interviews are conducted for the purpose of clarifying doubts, not for the purpose of investigation. It is, of course, early days yet to say whether or not the current procedures and arrangements should be substantially changed. However, I am sure that the IPCC and indeed the Administration will be alive to the need to make any improvements in the light of operational experience.
MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to ask the Government the criteria on which the IPCC decides whether to interview the witnesses or not. And how many members are there in the IPCC? How many cases have they dealt with? Is it due to the small number of members in the IPCC that the work of interviewing witnesses and investigation has been seriously limited? Lastly, Mr President, can the CAPO disregard the IPCC's investigation results?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the IPCC selects cases which are suitable for witnesses to be interviewed on the following grounds. Firstly, they are complicated cases where the clarification with individual witnesses may tilt the balance for the classification of the allegations. Secondly, they are cases which require experts to elaborate or to supplement their professional advice by face-to-face discussions; for example, in these cases such experts would include medical doctors. And thirdly, where cases are of a borderline or of a controversial nature. There is no evidence to suggest, at the moment, that the ability of the IPCC to interview witnesses which they choose to interview is
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being restricted by the number of Council members or its staff. However, of course we will certainly be alive to any need for the IPCC Secretariat insofar as additional resources are concerned. Indeed, additional resources will be provided this year.
As regards the question of follow-up with CAPO and with the police generally on the conclusions of the IPCC after interviewing witnesses, as I have said already, these interviews have enabled the IPCC to re-examine the classification of four complaint cases and to confirm the findings of CAPO in two other cases. Of the four cases which the IPCC are re-examining, one of them indeed has already achieved agreement with the Police Force insofar as their re-classification is concerned; as for the three other cases, they are still subject to discussion with the Police Force.
MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary for Security mentioned in his reply that the IPCC had interviewed witnesses for six complaint cases. And in paragraph 4 of his reply, he mentioned that the conclusions of investigation for the six cases were: the classification of four of the cases had to be re-examined and the findings of the other two had to be confirmed. In other words, the six cases for which the IPCC had interviewed witnesses were found to be questionable. I would like to ask whether the more cases with their witnesses interviewed, the more questions would be found. Does this indicate that in the past when the IPCC had not the right to interview witnesses, many of the written reports of the CAPO might be questionable?
PRESIDENT: You are really asking for an opinion, Mr WONG.
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, Dr the Honourable Conrad LAM is the deputy Chairman of the IPCC. I was shocked to hear the deputy Chairman raising so many questions about the new procedure of the operation. I was especially shocked when Dr the Honourable LAM led us to realize that the witnesses to be interviewed, including police officers, could arbitrarily choose whether to show up or not, or to be late. In addition, when the Secretary explained just now how cases were selected to have their witnesses interviewed, I found that they were to select those "borderline" cases or cases where the balance of their findings or their classification might be tilted. Such cases would then be selected to have their witnesses interviewed and the police officers may choose to attend or not. When the CAPO was responsible for the investigations, the police officers were required to attend under the Disciplinary Regulations, but now that the IPCC is responsible for monitoring whether the investigations of the CAPO are done fairly, the police offers may choose not to attend at all. I would like to ask the Secretary whether such arrangement is indeed ridiculous and even humiliating.
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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I stress, again, that the Interviewing Witnesses Scheme's main purpose is to enable the IPCC to resolve areas of doubt, to clarify areas of doubt. Those interviewing procedures are not part of any formal investigation themselves. The arrangement as agreed and as implemented currently is that witnesses are not compelled to appear before the Council. I should, of course, also say that we would always be alive to the comments and suggestions from members of the IPCC as regards whether the current procedures should be improved, and if so, how.
Noise Nuisance Caused by Airport Railway Construction
4. MR LEE WING-TAT asked (in Cantonese): Regarding the noise nuisance caused by the airport railway construction works, will the Government inform this Council of the following:
(a) whether the Mass Transit Railway Corporation (MTRC) has made a verbal or written undertaking that the noise level from such works will be kept below 75dB; if so, what the details of the undertaking are and what monitoring measures have been adopted by the Government;
(b) whether it is aware that the noise level from such works at Lai King has frequently exceeded 75dB, and even reached 90dB on one occasion, since the commencement of the works; if so, whether any attempts have been made to find out the reasons for such high noise levels and whether remedial measures have been adopted; and
(c) whether it will reconsider giving the residents of the two blocks in Lai King Estate, which are situated 10 metres only from the construction site, the option to move into other blocks in Lai King Estate or other estates where the level of noise nuisance is lower?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,
(a) The Mass Transit Railway Corporation (MTRC) carried out a full Environmental Impact Study (EIS) to identify potential impacts during construction and operation of the Airport Railway prior to construction. The study report was put to the Advisory Council on the Environment in April 1994 and endorsed.
Among other mitigation measures, the MTRC voluntarily adopted a target daytime construction noise limit of 75 dB for noise measured at the nearest sensitive receiver between 7.00 am and 7.00 pm from Monday to Saturday excluding General Holidays. These are the hours under the Noise Control Ordinance for which no noie level
3280 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 restrictions have been specified for construction works, except piling work.
At meetings with the Kwai Tsing District Board in March 1994 and the Advisory Council on the Environment in April 1994 and February 1995, the MTRC assured Members of their commitment to the undertakings and the mitigation measures recommended in the EIS. In the Finance Committee information note on the Airport Railway [FCRI(94-95)], Members were also informed of the details of the environmental mitigation measures for the Airport Railway.
The EIS established comprehensive Environmental Monitoring and Audit Programmes for the MTRC to monitor the environmental impacts of the Airport Railway and the effectiveness of the mitigation measures. In addition, the Environmental Protection Department set up the Environmental Project Office (ENPO) - Kwai Chung/Tsing Yi to monitor and audit the cumulative environmental impacts arising from construction activities in the area, including the Airport Railway construction works. ENPO, in addition to reviewing their reports on environmental monitoring data with the MTRC, also conducts regular site inspections and obtains noise level measurements, and takes prompt action when necessary to advise the MTRC to improve the effectiveness of mitigation measures in hand. The Environmental Protection Department and the MTRC have set up telephone hotlines for receiving enquiries and complaints, and site procedures allow virtually immediate response if this is necessary.
I wish to assure Members that the MTRC and the Government have taken the environmental issues very seriously, with dedicated staff resources to address such matters. The MTRC has eight general staff with another seven overseeing staff carrying out supervisory work and environmental control, while the Government has six overseeing staff.
(b) Mr President, construction work at Lai King commenced almost 12 months ago, whereas noise complaints only began to be received early this year. The complaints have been traced to sources, and it is true that there have been exceedences of the MTRC'S self-imposed 75dB noise limit despite the considerable efforts made to stay inside this limit. The problem stems from the need to construct substantial concrete footings involving rock excavation for a noise enclosure structure, which is itself a temporary but essential part of the noise mitigation measures being provided for construction of permanent works. Following completion of this noise enclosure by May 1995, that is, next month, the MTRC is confident that the 75dB limit will be adhered to. In the mean time, constant efforts have
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been made to reduce noise impacts, and the record shows continuous improvement so that levels are now contained to about 75 to 77 dB.
The Administration will continue to work closely with the MTRC to contain the noise impact problems at Lai King, and indeed elsewhere arising from the constuction of the Airport Railway. Local residents are being contacted almost daily and local representative bodies also are being kept fully in the picture.
(c) The Housing Department is unable to offer rehousing to tenants of Lai King Estate as a general practice on the grounds of noise nuisance over a limited period of time. However, it is always willing to consider sympathetically exceptional arrangements for tenants with special needs, for example, where there are health grounds for transfer. Apart from resource considerations, the Department believes that it is essential and most effective to mitigate noise levels at source, and this as I have pointed out, is the approach which the MTRC and other government departments are adopting.
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, I understand very well the details of works mentioned in the Secretary's reply because I have participated in the relevant discussions. I wonder if Mr EASON is aware of the fact that from January to April this year, despite the implementation of the relevant measures, the average level of noise generated by the construction project at Lai King still exceeded the 75 dB limit. Efforts to mitigate noise levels at source have therefore proved to be ineffective. Furthermore, when the Government held disscussions on the programme of construction Container Terminal No. 9 two years ago, it decided to make arrangements to move out those residents of Ching Tao House, Cheung Ching Estate, who were subjected to excessive noise nuisance, and again, when the Government proceeded with the discussions on the Western Harbour Crossing Project, it sought to provide insulation to the windows of those households being subjected to excessive noise nuisance. Under such circumstances, why has the Government not adopted the aforementioned two approaches for the residents of Lai King Estate who constantly have to tolerate a noise level of 75 dB? What are the reasons?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I think the point of difference is that the two projects which the Honourable Member has referred to specifically are projects which will produce, upon completion, traffic noise, and that is why the mitigation measures which cannot be applied adequately to the new highway projects are being applied to the flats which will be affected by the noise. As I pointed out, in relation to Lai King and the construction project there, this is a very temporary phenomenon because the noise which has been generated in the past two or three months has actually been generated by efforts to construct a noise barrier in itself, and once that noise barrier is in place - which as I said, should be by
3282 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 next month - then there should not be a question of ongoing exceedences of the 75 dB limit.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Government explains that, in regard to handling the noise issue, both the MTRC and the relevant government officials have shown great concern over this problem and a lot of efforts have been put in. Although the Government has listened to the residents' complaints and has addressed the problem, the noise nuisance still persists and the residents still suffer from a noise level of over 75 dB. When the Advisory Council on the Environment held discussions on this issue, the MTRC undertook, in the presence of government officials, that the noise level would not exceed 75 dB. However, the fact is that the MTRC has failed to honour its promise. Can the Secretary inform us why the Government still tolerates such exceedences following failure on the part of the MTRC to honour its promise in spite of the fact that their proposed plan has been accepted by the Government and the opinions of the Advisory Council have been sought? Has the MTRC, at the outset, misled the Advisory Council? Or has the Government accepted the MRTC proposal because the relevant government departments have been deceived by the MTRC?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I think we need to look at this in the context of perhaps the fact that since January this year there have been 12 complaints; I think there have been two complaints specifically from Block 5 in Lai King Estate. And I think the point to repeat is that the MTRC accepted a voluntary imposition of a 75 dB noise limit within construction hours and locations which are not restricted by law. Our environmental legislation does not impose such restrictions so far. Whether in due course it will, I think is a matter for subsequent consideration. The arrangements which are in place are for the MTRC to do its utmost to ensure that the limit that it has accepted voluntarily is adhered to. It is in the nature of the construction of this particular piece of noise barrier that it has not been possible consistently to avoid some exceedences. But the record shows that whenever there has been exceedence and complaint, there has been prompt action to seek to mitigate. And as I said earlier, I believe that once this noise barrier is in place, it will protect residents from further exceedences and we and the MTRC will seek to ensure that that is achieved.
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, it seems a big joke that the construction of a noise barrier itself, which is undertaken for the purpose of reducing noise, has exceeded the noise level commitment openly made by the MTRC, particularly when the noise level has reached 75 to 91 dB. Mr EASON said that we should look forward to see the result after the noise barrier is put in place in May. However, in a reply furnished to me by the MTRC, which is with me at the moment, the MTRC said that if the noise level still exceeds 75 dB after the completion of the noise barrier in May, the MTRC would continue to
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3283
take mitigating measures. Does the Secretary feel that this is a satisfactory reply? What undertaking the Government will make to this Council and to the residents living in the vicinity of the construction site?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, Mr LEE may refer to it as a joke but I do not think I or the residents consider it as such, and I can assure him and the residents that the MTRC and its contractors and the Administration will continue to do their utmost to ensure, as far as humanly possible, that exceedences are eliminated. And as I say, the completion of the noise barrier itself should go a long way to enabling everybody to live up to their commitments in that regard.
PRESIDENT: Not answered, Mr LEE?
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr EASON has not answered my question at all. The MTRC undertook in its reply that if the noise level still exceeds 75 dB after the noise barrier is completed on May 1, the MTRC will continue to put in mitigating efforts. This is an uncommitted commitment. What commitment can the Secretary, who is overseeing the work of the MTRC on behalf Government, make to this Council and to the public?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I do not wish to keep repeating myself, but undertakings have been given to carry out auditing and monitoring and to deal with exceedences, and I believe that is as far as the MTRC and the Administration can go.
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, in his reply, Mr EASON said that the MTRC carried out noise mitigating measures on a voluntary basis. Can the Government inform us whether the existing legislations are sufficient to control noise exceedences arising from the Airport Railway Project? If not, can the Government carry out some concrete measures which can be immediately implemented?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, again, without wishing to repeat myself, I have already said that the present legislation does not control noise within these hours and that is why we have to rely on a voluntary undertaking by the MTRC. And I also said a moment ago that if the indications from experience, say territory-wide, is such that generally speaking the noise limits the legislation imposes are inadequate, then we should consider whether they should be strengthened.
3284 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Clearance Time at Lo Wu and Airport Control Points
5. MR HOWARD YOUNG asked: Regarding the installation of optical readers at the Lo Wu and Airport immigration control points, will the Administration inform this Council:
(a) of the respective average processing times for each traveller before and after the installation of the optical readers;
(b) of the respective numbers of passengers that can be processed each hour in a normal situation and during peak hours; and
(c) whether optical readers will be installed at the Hong Kong-Macau and Hong Kong-China ferry immigration control points in the near future?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,
(a) At Lo Wu, the average processing time for a Hong Kong Identity Card holder is 20 seconds at present. Before the installation of optical readers, the average processing time was 24 seconds, that is, there is a reduction of the processing time by four seconds.
At the Airport, the average processing times for arrival and departure clearances are different. For a Hong Kong Identity Card holder, the average for arrival clearance is 30 seconds at present, compared with 34 seconds before the installation of optical readers. That for departure clearance is 39 seconds, compared with 43 seconds before.
We plan to install more optical readers to facilitate clearance. At present, 350 optical readers have been installed for clearance of Hong Kong Identity Card holders only. An additional 270 optical readers will be installed in September this year at the control points for handling machine readable passports as well. We estimate that using the optical readers, the current average processing time for machine readable passports of 90 seconds for arrivals and 60 seconds for departures will be reduced by 20 seconds for each machine readable passport holder.
(b) Lo Wu is now able to process 9 200 passengers per hour during normal times and 11 500 passengers during peak periods. This represents an increase of 28% in the handling capacity for normal times and 35% for peak periods. The Airport is able to process
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3285
5 800 passengers per hour during normal times and 8 200 passengers per hour during peak periods. The increase in capacity is 4% and 5% respectively. As the proportion of machine readable passports cleared at the Airport is much larger, there will be a considerable improvement in the handling capacity when optical readers are installed for machine readable passport holders by September this year.
The increase in handling capacity is made possible not only by the installation of optical readers, but by an increase in manpower. Last year, we created 113 additional posts for Lo Wu. This year, we have just created 44 additional posts for the Airport.
(c) Optical readers were installed at the Macau and China Ferry Terminals last September for clearance of Hong Kong Identity Card holders. Additional readers will be installed this September. In fact, from September this year, all the counters at major control points will be installed with optical readers.
Application for Employment and Commercial Visas
6. MR SIMON IP asked: Will the Government inform this Council whether measures will be taken to make employment and commercial visa application procedures more efficient and transparent to applicants; if so, what such measures are, and whether the Immigration Department will consider adopting the following additional measures:
(a) issuing and publicizing guidelines for those people applying for employment or commercial visas after their arrival in Hong Kong;
(b) issuing and publicizing clearer guidelines on the documentation required at the outset of an application, so that an applicant does not need to make several trips back to the Department to submit documents not originally requested;
(c) issuing and publicizing more detailed instructions for completing application forms, including glossaries of terms used therein; and
(d) taking steps to shorten the lengthy queues faced by applicants?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, procedures for the application for visas for employment and investment are designed to be as simple and straightforward as possible. Information pamphlets and application forms are available at service outlets of the Immigration Department, District Offices and British visa posts overseas. Guidance notes attached to visa application forms distributed in Hong Kong set out in detail the supporting documents needed and
3286 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
highlight areas requiring special attention. Public enquiries can be made at the Immigration Department's Information Office, through the Department's 24-hour enquiry hotline (Tel. No. 2824 6111) or at British visa posts overseas.
We are committed to providing an efficient and courteous service to the public. To this end, we continue our efforts to improve and simplify visa application procedures. For example, we introduced in October last year a dual-track system where applicants seeking to enter Hong Kong for employment, investment, training, residence or education may either submit their visa applications to their nearest British visa post or send them to the Immigration Department, either directly or through their local sponsors. The direct application facility reduces normal processing time by up to two weeks.
As regards the additional measures referred to in the Honourable Member's question:
(a) Persons who wish to work or set up business in Hong Kong should apply to British visa posts or to the Immigration Department for visas before they come to Hong Kong. Applications from visitors for employment or investment after their arrival should be regarded as exceptions.
(b) As explained above, application forms and guidance notes are widely available. Applicants or their sponsors are encouraged to provide all the necessary documents at the outset, so that there should be no need to make repeated trips. Staff of the Immigration Department are ready to answer any queries, through telephone enquiries if desired, by applicants or their sponsors on the documentation required.
(c) Visa application forms are already written in plain language and are designed to be user-friendly. Immigration Department staff are ready to assist applicants who have difficulty in completing the forms.
(d) Applicants for visas need not apply to the Immigration Department in person. They may send their applications directly to the Immigration Department by post, or apply through British visa posts overseas. They should then be able to avoid any need for queueing. Visitors who seek to change their status after arrival may submit their applications to the Department's Entry Visa "Other Services" Section, and their applications are normally received over the counter, after a short preliminary screening. However, they may also send their applications by post, thus avoiding any need for queueing.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3287 Truck drivers from China
7. MR LEE CHEUK-YAN asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of the respective numbers of container truck and truck drivers from China driving such vehicles who enter and leave the territory in the course of their work each month in the past year; and whether such drivers are classified as imported labour?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the People's Republic of China (PRC) drivers employed by companies in China who drive trucks (including container trucks) into Hong Kong in the course of their work enter on multiple-journey visit visas. As at 18 April 1995, there were 713 PRC truck drivers holding valid visas. These PRC drivers are not classified as imported workers as they are employed by companies in China.
We do not have monthly statistics on the arrival/departure of PRC truck drivers on visas. Statistics are available only for all PRC drivers entering on visas, that is, PRC drivers of trucks, passenger coaches, private cars and so on. The statistics for the past 12 months are as follows:
1994 Arrival Departure April 9 667 9 742
May 9 918 9 660
June 10 525 10 442
July 10 964 11 099
August 11 521 11 426
September 11 272 11 293
October 11 238 11 206
November 10 719 10 561
December 11 166 11 202
-------- ---------
Total: 96 990 96 631
3288 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
1995 Arrival Departure January 10 979 11 003 February 8 716 8 628
March 14 632 14 493 -------- --------
Total: 34 327 34 124
Projection of the Number of Container Trucks
8. MR VINCENT CHENG asked: Will the Administration inform this Council of the projection of the number of container trucks in the next decade, given the Administration's projected number of container units that will be handled by the territory's container facilities in the next 12 years up to 2006?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, as at 1 April 1995, the number of licensed container vehicles in Hong Kong is 12 862. The number is projected to increase to 20 000 by 2001 and 27 000 by 2006.
Subsidization of Private Residential Care Homes for the Elderly
9. MR MOSES CHENG asked (in Chinese): The Government has indicated that a provision of $50 million will be set aside to subsidize private residential care homes for elderly persons (RCHs) to improve their facilities so that they can comply with the requirements specified in the Residential Care Homes (Elderly Persons) Ordinance, which came into effect on 1st April 1995. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) when it will announce the application procedures concerning the subsidy scheme so that private RCHs operators in need of financial assistance can submit applications as soon as possible;
(b) of the estimated number of private RCHs which will apply for subsidy;
(c) of the estimated average amount of subsidy to be granted in respect of each application;
(d) what monitoring measures it will adopt to ensure that the funds granted are properly used by subsidized private RCHs; and
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(e) whether, in regard to those private RCHs whose applications for subsidy have been rejected, consideration will be given to providing other means which will help them to meet the requirements of the Residential Care Homes (Elderly Persons) Ordinance?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, the reply is as follows:
(a) We aim to announce the application procedures for the Financial Assistance Scheme before the end of May 1995. Operators of private homes and self financing non-profit-making homes for the elderly will then be invited to submit applications accordingly.
(b) and (c)
Existing private homes vary enormously in terms of their financial condition and the scale of improvement or alteration works which they may need in order to comply with the new statutory requirements. It is, therefore, difficult to estimate the number of private residential care homes (RCHs) which will apply for the subsidy and the amount of subsidy which will be appropriate in each case.
(d) The Social Welfare Department is devising application, vetting and payment procedures for the Financial Assistance Scheme in order to ensure that the funds granted are properly used. RCHs will be required to meet certain eligibility criteria when they make their applications. While all applications will have to be based on estimates made by professional consultants or qualified contractors, the scope of work and project costs will need to be vetted and approved by the Social Welfare Department on the advice of a professional works team established especially for that purpose in the Department. This team will monitor the progress of each successful application and the payment of grants will be made only on a reimbursement basis against certified receipts.
(e) The most likely reason for the rejection of an application made by an RCH would be that the RCH concerned had locational or structural problems which could not be rectified even through major improvement works. In such a case, the operator would be advised to seek alternative premises to continue the operation of the RCH. In the event that a home may need to be closed for whatever reason, the Social Welfare Department will assit operators to find alternative places for any elderly persons affected.
3290 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 Navigation Safety in Hong Kong Waters
10. MRS MIRIAM LAU asked (in Chinese): Despite steps being taken by the Marine Department to ensure navigation safety in the territory's waters, two serious collisions involving passenger catamarans have occurred in the territory's waters within a period of four months. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council whether:
(a) the Marine Department will adopt any special measures to prevent the occurrence of similar accidents; and
(b) the Marine Department has any contingency plans to deal with such accidents?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, the Director of Marine is inquiring into the causes of the two recent collision incidents involving passenger catamarans. Only one of those incidents occurred within Hong Kong waters; the other occurred within Chinese waters. In the light of the outcome of those inquiries, the Administration will implement all necessary measures to prevent the occurrence of similar accidents.
The Director of Marine has already implemented a number of proactive measures to minimize the risk of collisions. These include the establishment and realignment of fairways, the stepping up of harbour patrols, augmenting the regulations and procedures of the vessel traffic system and the establishment of additional local traffic control stations. These measures have already improved the regulation of traffic flow in the harbour. For the future, a new Marine Control Station at Ma Wan is to be commissioned in June and an additional 24-hour harbour patrol team will be developed later this year to step up surveillance and harbour control. A longer-term strategy for the management of Hong Kong waters is being developed in conjunction with a comprehensive study on marine navigational issues which we propose to start later in the year.
As regards contingency planning, comprehensive plans are in place. For example, in the event of accidents, the Marine Rescue Co-ordination Centre co-ordinates rescue operations in conjunction with the Marine Police who may call upon support as necessary from the Fire Services Department, the Government Flying Service and such other specialist services as may be necessary.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3291 Elimination and Simplification of Government Forms
11. MR MARTIN BARROW asked: In regard to the review of government forms, will the Government provide this Council with an update on the elimination and simplification of forms in each department during the past two years under the following headings:
(a) (b) (c) (d) (e) No. of Forms
Dept
No. of Forms 31/3/93
No. of Forms 31/3/94
(excluding new forms
introduced)
No. of Forms Eliminated
(b) - (c)
Simplified or Improved
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, we have the following information: Public Forms Review
No. of Forms as at
31.3.93
No. of
Forms
as at
31.3.95
(excluding new forms introduced
No. of
Forms
eliminated (1.4.93 - 31.3.95)
No. of
Forms
simplified or improved
(1.4.93 -
31.3.95)
No. Department (a) (b) (a) - (b) 1 Administration Wing. GS 22 17 5 4 2 Agriculture and Fisheries Department 85 85 0 38 3 Census and Statistics Department 225 223 2 4 4 City and New Territories Administration 283 278 5 59 5 Civil Aviation Department 109 105 4 42 6 Civil Engineering Department 26 26 0 13 7 Companies Registry 75 75 0 50 8 Correctional Services Department 7 5 2 4 9 Custom and Excise Department 166 122 44 112 10 Department of Health 193 186 7 109 11 Education Department 584 290 294 290 12 Electrical and Mechanical Services Department 20 16 4 16 13 Environmental Protection Department 67 60 7 23 14 Fire Services Department 265 205 60 48 15 Government Supplies Department 146 121 25 73
3292 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 Public Forms Review
No. of Forms as at
31.3.93
No. of
Forms as at 31.3.95
(excluding new forms introduced
No. of forms eliminated (1.4.93 -
31.3.95)
No. of
forms
simplified or
improved (1.4.93 - 31.3.95)
No. Department (a) (b) (a) - (b) 16 Highways Department 7 6 1 0 17 Hong Kong Export Credit Insurance Company 32 32 0 8 18 Hong Kong Monetary Authority 33 33 0 0 19 Housing Department 625 539 86 98 20 Immigration Department 120 115 5 2 21 ICAC 24 19 5 5 22 Industry Department 9 9 0 6 23 Information Services Department 7 7 0 0 24 ITSD 42 20 22 10 25 Inland Revenue Department 123 104 19 26 26 Judiciary 6 6 0 0 27 Labour Department 415 344 71 196 28 Lands Department 23 20 3 1 29 Legal Department 13 10 3 6 30 Legal Aid Department 38 38 0 3 31 Marine Department 103 95 8 47
32 Office of the Commissioner for Administration Complaints
2200
33 Office of the Commissioner of Insurance 18 18 0 13 34 Office of the Telecommunications Authority 58 58 0 58 35 Official Receiver's Office 179 158 21 105 36 Planning Department 3 3 0 1 37 Post Office 100 97 3 64 38 Printing Department 36 36 0 1 39 Public Service Commission 1 1 0 0 40 Radio Television Hong Kong 3 3 0 3 41 Rating and Valuation Department 440 427 13 142 42 Regional Services Department 102 97 5 82 43 Registration and Electoral Office 139 128 11 59
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3293 Public Forms Review
No. of Forms as at
31.3.93
No. of
Forms as at 31.3.95
(excluding new forms introduced
No. of forms eliminated (1.4.93 -
31.3.95)
No. of
forms
simplified or
improved (1.4.93 - 31.3.95)
No. Department (a) (b) (a) - (b) 44 Registry of Trade Unions 24 24 0 0 45 Royal Hong Kong Police Force 58 58 0 38 46 Social Welfare Department 204 119 85 89 47 Student Financial Assistance Agency 76 70 6 34 48 TELA 39 39 0 12 49 Territory Development Department 1 1 0 1 50 The Land Registry 20 18 2 15 51 Trade Department 134 123 11 116 52 Transport Department 118 103 15 66 53 Treasury 35 28 7 25 54 Urban Services Department 599 215 384 143 55 Water Supplies Department 190 118 72 108 Total 6 472 5 155 *1 317 2 468
* Total number of forms abolished is 1 455, of which 138 forms have been combined with other forms
Financial Needs of the Elderly
12. MR JIMMY McGREGOR asked: Elderly citizens who are now the recipients of the normal Old Age Allowance and the higher Old Age Allowance have been given the expectation that they would be able to receive and Old Age Pension of at least $2,300 per month at 1995 price levels. However, the abandonment by the Government of the proposed Old Age Pension Scheme has now left these elderly citizens without any apparent improvement to their small Old Age Allowances. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council what measures it now proposes to take to improve the financial situation of these elderly people estimated at over 400 000 who are not subject to inclusion in the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance Scheme, together with a timetable for the introduction of any such measures?
3294 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, the proposed Old Age Pension Scheme (OPS) was designed as a contributory scheme to provide income security for all eligible elderly persons. The Old Age Allowance for elderly persons is non contributory and, apart from an income declaration for those aged 65 to 69, is a non-means tested grant. Our Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) Scheme is designed to provide financial support to those in genuine financial need, that is, it is a means-tested welfare payment.
It is important that the fundamental differences between these various schemes are fully appreciated. The Government is proceeding with a mandatory privately managed provident fund scheme (the MPF) in place of the OPS to address the need for financial security in retirement. The Administration intends to introduce legislation to establish the MPF system in this legislative Session.
In addition, the Review of the CSSA Scheme currently in hand should be concluded in the first quarter of 1996. The Financial Secretary has agreed to reserve funds to enable some, if not all, of the Review's recommendations to be implemented in the 1996-97 financial year.
The financial needs of the elderly are best addressed by a successful implementation as early as possible of the MPF system and any enhancements of CSSA payments for the elderly which may be recommended in the CSSA Review and which could increase the number of elderly persons entitled to CSSA support. It is the development of these two schemes, rather than the Old Age Allowance scheme which is not targetted at those in need, which will be the best way of meeting the financial needs of elderly persons in the future.
Letting of Markets or Shopping Centres in Public Housing Estates
13. MR TAM YIU-CHUNG asked (in Chinese): There has been an increasing trend in recent years of the Housing Authority letting entire markets or shopping centres in public housing estates to single operators. As the sublessees at different levels need to make a profit, the costs borne by the direct operators of these markets and shopping centres have in consequence increased substantially, and these are in the end passed on to the consumers. Recently, the direct operators in Kwong Tin Estate in Lam Tin have taken strike action, because they are unable to bear the substantial rises in rent. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the Housing Authority will consider discontinuing the mode of letting markets and shopping centres in housing estates to single operators; and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3295
(b) what measures the Housing Authority will put in place to monitor the situation in housing estates where an entire market or shopping centre has been let to a single operator, in order to prevent the occurrence of similar strike incidents?
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING: Mr President,
(a) At present, there are six markets and six supermarket-cum-markets in Housing Authority estates which have been let to single operators. Past surveys of 10 of these markets showed that the products and services provided were well received by residents. By letting these commercial premises to single operators, the Housing Authority expects them to provide an efficient service, while at the same time containing staff growth. For these reasons, the Housing Authority does not intend to discontinue the single operator practice in the housing estates concerned. However, it will continue to monitor the services provided with a view to improving the letting system if necessary.
(b) In letting markets to single operators, the Housing Authority adopts the following measures to safeguard the interests of residents:
(i) the operator is required under the tenancy agreement to run a variety of essential trades and services;
(ii) the operator is required to submit individual sub-tenancy agreements to the Authority prior to their execution, and to bring any subsequent change or termination to the notice of the Authority;
(iii) the premises should be kept open for business between 7.00 am and 8.00 pm daily; and
(iv) the Authority retains the right to terminate the agreement with the single operator in case of unsatisfactory performance on the part of the operator or his sub-tenants.
Moreover, the practice of letting commercial premises to single operators is not adopted unless there is an alternative market in the vicinity. This ensures consumer choice and continuity of service to residents in case of disruption.
(c) Operators and sub-tenants of single-operator markets in public housing estates are given a free hand to make their own commercial decisions. In the case of Kwong Tin Estate, which houses a supermarket-cum-market run by a single operator, the recent temporary closure of the wet market was decided on by stallholders
3296 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
during negotiations over the terms of renewal of their tenancies. Notwithstanding the temporary closure of the wet market, the operator has been able to maintain service in the supermarket section.
While the Housing Authority does not exercise direct control over the contractual terms and conditions under which individual stalls are sub-let by the operator, the Authority always encourages dialogue between the operator and sub-tenants to resolve disputes and to maintain harmonious relationships. In the event of a serious service disruption, the Authority will intervene with a view to restoring service to the public as soon as possible.
Increase in Social Security Assistance Payments
14. MISS CHRISTINE LOH asked: In his reply to a written question which I asked concerning the Programme Area on Social Security in the context of the examination of Draft Estimates of Expenditure 1995-96, the Director of Social Welfare has stated that the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) rates have increased by about 15 times over the last two decades while the rate of inflation as measured by the Consumer Price Index (A) has gone up only six times. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council how it has calculated this increase in CSSA payments and, in particular, how it can demonstrate the real increase in the last 10 years?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, when the Public Assistance Scheme, which is now known as the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) Scheme, was set up in 1971, the basic (now standard) rate for a single person was $70 per month. Since then, the standard rates have been adjusted in accordance with increases in the cost of living. Real increases have also been made to the rates. In 1994, the standard rate for a single person became $1,115 per month, representing an increase of about 15 times over the rate in 1971. The Consumer Price Index (A) (CPI(A)) rose from 21.0 in 1971 to 146.9 in 1994, representing an increase of about six times.
From 1985 to 1994, the standard rate for a single person increased from $510 per month to $1,115 per month, representing an increase of 119%. The CPI(A) rose from 72.8 in 1985 to 146.9 in 1994, representing an increase of 102%. This demonstrates a real increase in the CSSA payment rates over the last 10 years.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3297 Water Supply to Remote Villages in the New Territories
15. MR ALBERT CHAN asked (in Chinese): In his written reply to a question regarding complaints about the lack of water supply to squatter areas at the Council sitting on 30 June 1993, the Secretary for Works indicated that a Public Works Programme Item "Water Supply to Remote Villages in the New Territories" had been created. However, the residents of Lin Fa Shan in Tsuen Wan have recently complained that the area is still without water supply. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of:
(a) the progress of the project for the provision of water supply to Lin Fa Shan; (b) the target date for completion of the project; and
(c) the villages in the New Territories which are currently without water supply?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President,
(a) The progress of the project for the provision of water supply to Lin Fa Shan:
Provision of water supply to Lin Fa Shan in Tsuen Wan has been planned as part of the project "Chuen Lung and Ha Fa Shan Scheme" which comprises a two-staged pumping system. Tender for the works will be gazetted in June 1995 and construction will commence in September 1995.
There are however still land problems to be resolved, and consequently difficulites in finding suitable routes for the water mains in the area. Unless the land problem can be resolved before the tender date, some delay is expected for the completion of the project.
(b) The target date for completion of the project:
The project is expected to complete by the end of 1996 and metered water supply will also be available to the villagers of Lin Fa Shan at the same time.
(c) The villages in the New Territories which are currently without water supply:
Out of the 774 villages identified under the New Territories Water Supply Scheme, 640 villages have been provided with metered water supply. There are a total of 134 villages not yet provided
3298 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
with metered water supply and for these villages, actions at different stages are being taken as follows:
(a) Villages for which works are at design or
50
construction stage (Construction works for 37
villages were underway. Works for the other 13
villages were being designed)
(b) Villages under planning 19
(c) Villages presently not planned for metered water
30
supply but are being reviewed
(d) Villages cleared or to be cleared 4
(e) Villages which are deserted or are sparsely
31
populated
Total 134
Development of Sai Tso Wan in Cha Kwo Ling
16. MR FRED LI asked (in Chinese): It is learnt that the Planning Department has undertaken a study on the future development of Sai Tso Wan in Cha Kwo Ling, Kwun Tong. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) when the Planning Department has started to study the land use of that site;
(b) of the reasons why the Planning Department has not yet released any findings of the study, and whether preliminary findings of the study will be made public; and
(c) whether, as the land lease of the clay mine situated at the above-mentioned site will expire in 1996, the Planning Department will be able to complete the report of the study before the expiry of the land lease; if not, what actions the relevant departments will take to solve the noise and air pollution problems caused be the mine to residents in Cha Kwo Ling and Laguna City?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, the answers to the three-part question are:
(a) The Planning Department commissioned the Central and East Kowloon Development Statement Consultancy study in December
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3299
1994. The objective of the study is to provide a broad planning framework to guide the planning and development of Central and East Kowloon up to 2011 having regard to Metroplan and the latest strategic planning, transport and infrastructure proposals relevant to the study area. The study area covers Kwun Tong, Wong Tai Sin and part of Kowloon City. The land use of Cha Kwo Ling, Kwun Tong is covered by this study.
(b) Upon completion of the above-mentioned study, relevant district boards will be consulted on its findings and recommendations.
(c) The study is scheduled for completion in February 1996 which is before the expiry of the land lease of the clay mine in mid-1996. The Environmental Protection Department (EPD) has been and will be continuing its monitoring on the operation of the clay mine against any breaches of the statutory limits under the Air Pollution Control Ordinance (Cap. 311) and the Noise Control Ordinance (Cap. 400). Further legislative control, in the form of a licence control system under the Air Pollution Control Ordinance will be in place by August 1995. By then, EPD can impose licensing conditions on the operator to tighten the control over air emissions. The operator has commissioned a consultant to work out the necessary upgrading measures with a view to reducing air emissions to the minimum.
Appointment of Advisory Board and Committee Members
17. MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG asked (in Chinese): Regarding the Government's policy on the appointment of members of advisory boards and committees, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether there are specific criteria for such appointments; if so, what these criteria are;
(b) whether members' attendance rate constitutes one of the criteria for reappointment; and
(c) whether, in regard to the situation of individual members of certain boards or committees with a low attendance rate, the Government will draw up measures, such as stipulating a minimum attendance rate, so that those members who fail to attain such a rate will not be reappointed at the expiry of their terms of office, in order to ensure that members will make every effort to attend meetings?
3300 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President,
(a) In general terms, appointments to advisory boards and committees are made on the basis of the merits of the individuals concerned, taking into account their personal ability, experience, integrity, commitment to public service and their overall suitability for appointment.
(b) An individual's commitment to public service is taken into account in considering his re-appointment to advisory boards and committees. Attendance at meetings is only one of the many measures of one's commitment to public service.
(c) In light of the above, it is not considered necessary to specify a minimum attendance rate as a criteria for re-appointment as to do so will introduce too much rigidity into the system.
Water Quality in Tolo Harbour
18. REV FUNG CHI-WOOD asked (in Chinese): Despite a number of work projects and measures being taken by the Government to tackle the water quality problem in Tolo Harbour, no improvement has been made to the problems of water pollution and red tides, as evidenced by the recent recurrence of the red tides problem which has resulted in the death of large quantities of fish and the emission of stench affecting nearly half of the district of Tai Po. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the continued existence of water pollution and red tides is an indication that the existing measures adopted have had no practical effects or that there are problems in the enforcement of these measures; and
(b) whether, apart from the projects launched by the Government to divert sewage to other places, consideration will be given to removing the pollutants in the water by dredging the silt on the seabed in order to solve the water pollution problem in Tolo Harbour on a permanent basis?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, the statement in the preamble to the question that there has been no improvement to water quality in Tolo Harbour is incorrect. The answers to (a) and (b) are as follows:
(a) The Tolo Harbour Action Plan (THAP) was put in place in 1987 to tackle water pollution and red tides in Tolo Harbour. The organic and nutrient pollution loads have been reduced by 45% and 36%
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3301
respectively since the inception of the THAP. Much of these reductions is the result of enforcement action under the Water Pollution Control Ordinance, following declaration of the Tolo Harbour and Channels Water Control Zone in 1987, and of livestock waste control through the Waste Disposal Ordinance since 1988. Enforcement action and other measures have brought about a marked improvement in water quality, as indicated by lower densities of algae and a reduction in the number of red tides in recent years. Nevertheless, because some polluting inputs continue, red tides occur from time to time, especially in the spring when algal blooms are more likely to occur. Further improvement to water quality is expected as more sources of pollution are removed.
Effluent export from the Sha Tin sewage treatment works, a key part of the THAP, was commissioned in April 1995. The same will be done for the Tai Po sewage treatment works in August 1995. Overall, this scheme is expected to further reduce organic and nutrient loadings by 10% and 30% respectively. The works to provide 14 Sha Tin villages with new sewers are nearing completion and works to provide 25 villages in Tai Po with the same have already begun. Further reductions in Tolo Harbour's pollution loading will occur when domestic sewage from these villages is diverted to the public sewers. These major improvement works, together with continued enforcement of the Water Pollution Control Ordinance to remove expedient connections and illegal discharges, the collection of leachate from the Shuen Wan landfill for treatment and restoration of the landfill upon its closure later in 1995, will also bring about further reductions in pollution loads.
(b) Dredging the Tolo Harbour seabed would not help much. Although organic sediments on the seabed release nutrients, their contribution to red tides is small compared to the amount of pollution coming from land-based sources. Dredging the sediments would also lead to resuspension and dispersion of the nutrients and other pollutants into the water body. The most effective way to tackle water pollution in Tolo Harbour is to reduce pollution loads entering the water as outlined under (a) above.
Sex Education in Schools
19. MR ERIC LI asked (in Chinese): It has been pointed out in a number of surveys in recent years that young persons have gradually adopted an open attitude towards sex, and yet their sexual knowledge is relatively limited. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the respective numbers of serving and pre-service teachers who have received training in sex education, together with the number of
3302 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
schools which have borrowed teaching materials related to sex education in the past three years;
(b) whether the Education Department has completed its survey, which started last year, on the knowledge and attitude of secondary school students on sex and sex education; if so, what the findings are;
(c) when a review will be conducted of the effectiveness of the "Guidelines on Sex Education in Secondary Schools" published in 1986, which is still in current use, in promoting the mode and curricula of sex education; and whether other professionals and members of the public will be invited to participate in such a review; and
(d) whether consideration will be given to drawing up new sex education curricula for primary one to primary six, form one to form three, form four to form five and matriculation classes, which are more specific than the general guidelines and which will enable teachers to be more effective in teaching sex education?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) Over the past three years, a total of 2 550 pre-service and 363 in-service teachers have received training/re-training in sex education.
The pre-service figure is made up of 2 500 students from the former Colleges of Education, and 50 students from the Chinese University of Hong Kong. The in-service figure wholly relates to serving teachers who attended the special training courses in sex education sponsored or run by the Education Department.
During the same period, 62 schools have borrowed teaching or display materials related to sex education from the two Education Department Sex Education Resource Centres.
(b) This survey is being conducted by a research team from the Chinese University of Hong Kong on behalf of the Education Department. It is scheduled for completion in August this year.
(c) The Education Department will review the Guidelines on Sex Education in the light of the results of the survey mentioned at (b) above. The Department intends to involve professionals, school principals, teachers, parents and members of the public in this review.
(d) Besides the Guidelines on Sex Education, over 60 topics relating to sex education are currently taught at different levels in the context
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3303
of 10 different school subjects, for example, biology, social studies and so on. While these topics are reviewed regularly, the need for separate curricula for different school levels will be considered in the review mentioned at (c) above.
Linkage between Hong Kong Futures Exchange and Philadelphia Stock Exchange
20. MR STEVEN POON asked (in Chinese): In view of the decision of the Hong Kong Futures Exchange (HKFE) to form a linkage with the Philadelphia Stock Exchange (PSE) in the United States which will enable the same futures product to be traded on both exchanges, will the Government inform this Council whether -
(a) it will ask the HKFE to clarify if the HKFE's establishment of a linkage with the PSE, which will facilitate the PSE in trading futures contracts on Hong Kong stocks, goes against the HKFE's original intention of launching stock futures contracts and the Government's undertaking given to this Council and the securities industry, bearing in mind that when the plan for introducing futures contracts on the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation Holdings and Hongkong Telecom stocks was explained to Members of this Council, the Government highlighted in particular the need for the HKFE to introduce the product as soon as possible so as to forestall a launch by the Singapore International Monetary Exchange of futures contracts on these two stocks;
(b) the HKFE has received encouragement from the Securities and Futures Commission (SFE) and the Government in making this decision;
(c) such a decision requires the prior approval of the SFC; if so, whether the SFC in granting its approval has assessed the overall implications of the HKFE's decision on the territory's securities industry and whether the SFC's findings will be published; if not, whether consideration will be given to amending the relevant legislation so that the launching of similar plans requires the prior approval of the SFC; and
(d) the Government and the SFC have consulted the Stock Exchange of Hong Kong (SEHK) on the HKFE's decision; if so, what the SEHK's views are and whether the SEHK has raised any issues warranting particular concern?
3304 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, the Hong Kong Futures Exchange (HKFE) has no plans to link with the Philadelphia Stock Exchange (PHLX) to enable the same futures product to be traded on both exchanges. The proposed linkage with the PHLX announced by the HKFE in March is to allow the PHLX currency options to be traded at the HKFE during Asian trading hours. All transactions will be cleared through and guaranteed by a clearing company in the United States. The linkage does not include Hong Kong stock-based or index-based futures contracts.
MOTION
RADIATION ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE moved the following motion:
"That the following Regulations, made by the Radiation Board on 11 March 1995, be approved:
(a) Radiation (Control of Radioactive Substances) (Amendment) Regulation 1995; and
(b) Radiation (Control of Irradiating Apparatus) (Amendment) Regulation 1995."
She said: Mr President, I move that the Radiation (Control of Irradiating Apparatus) (Amendment) Regulation 1995 and Radiation (Control of Radioactive Substances) (Amendment) Regulation 1995 as set out under my name in the paper circulated to Member be approved.
The Radiation Ordinance and its subsidiary legislation regulate, inter alia, exposure to ionizing radiation according to international standards so as to ensure effective protection of workers and the public as regards their health and safety.
Recently, international standards on this front have been updated by scaling down the limits of ionizing radiation exposure to radiation workers and the public, hence our amendment Regulations.
Technical amendments to terminology related to the regulations are also made.
The amendment Regulations also seek to allow the use of irradiating apparatus for specified medical purposes under certain conditions by radiographers, who need to operate irradiating apparatus when delivering their services. Radiographers will be required to be statutorily registered under the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3305 recently made Radiographers (Registration and Disciplinary Procedure) Regulation.
The amendment Regulations enhance radiological protection according to international standards and provide strict, but reasonable, conditions under which certain persons may operate irradiating apparatus for specified purposes. The Radiation Board, the licensing authority in respect of radioactive substances and irradiating apparatus set up under section 3 of the Radiation Ordinance, has been consulted and support the amendment Regulations.
With these remarks, I move the motion.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
BILLS
First Reading of Bills
SECURITIES (INSIDER DEALING) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995 DRUG TRAFFICKING (RECOVERY OF PROCEEDS) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995 ORGANIZED AND SERIOUS CRIMES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
Bills read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).
Second Reading of Bills
SECURITIES (INSIDER DEALING) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Securities (Insider Dealing) Ordinance."
She said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Securities (Insider Dealing) (Amendment) Bill 1995.
The Bill has two objectives. First, it seeks to amend the Securities (Insider Dealing) Ordinance to make it possible for an additional division or divisions of the Insider Dealing Tribunal to be set up so that two or more
3306 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
insider dealing cases can be heard at the same time. Secondly, it makes other amendments to the Ordinance to improve the operation of the Tribunal.
Investigations by the Securities and Futures Commission into suspected insider dealing are likely to generate a caseload that one tribunal will be unable to deal with alone without long delay. However, the Ordinance at present does not permit more than one tribunal, each with a different chairman and members, to operate at the same time. That insider dealing cases cannot be dealt with expeditiously may reduce the deterrent effect of the tribunal process and give the false impression that the Government does not consider insider dealing a serious matter.
Insider dealing undermines confidence in the fairness and the integrity of the market. The ability of the Tribunal to hear cases without undue delay is an important element in protecting the investing public and maintain market integrity.
To facilitate the setting up of an additional division or divisions of the Tribunal, it is also proposed that in addition to High Court judges, former High Court judges should be eligible for appointment as chairmen of divisions of the Tribunal. This is to widen the pool of candidates who will be eligible for appointment as chairmen.
Other amendments to the Ordinance are proposed to improve the operation of the Tribunal. Of these amendments, the more significant ones are the introduction of new provisions to empower the Tribunal to award costs to persons attending inquiries of the Tribunal and to provide certain immunity to witnesses from subsequent criminal and civil proceedings in respect of evidence given at proceedings before the Tribunal.
Thank you, Mr President.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
DRUG TRAFFICKING (RECOVERY OF PROCEEDS) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
THE SECRETARY FOR SECURITY moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Drug Trafficking (Recovery of Proceeds) Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Drug Trafficking (Recovery of Proceeds) (Amendment) Bill 1995.
The Drug Trafficking (Recovery of Proceeds) Ordinance provides for the tracing, restraining and confiscation of proceeds derived from drug trafficking and the criminalization of assisting a drug trafficker to launder his drug
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3307
proceeds. It also provides for the designation of countries and territories outside Hong Kong so that external confiscation orders can be enforced here. The Ordinance helps to reduce the profitability of drug trafficking and acts as a deterrent to money laundering. It enhances Hong Kong's co-operation with overseas countries in the fight against illicit drugs. Since the coming into operation of the Ordinance in September 1989, assets to the value of $273 million have been ordered to be confiscated. Of these, $194 million have been paid to the Government. Further assets amounting to $153 million are under restraint.
The purpose of the present Bill is to improve the operation of the Ordinance in the light of experience since its enactment, and to bring its provisions into line with the standards in the 1988 United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances.
The Bill empowers the court to make a confiscation order, where proceedings in respect of a drug trafficking offence have not concluded because the defendant has absconded or died.
It also empowers the court to increase the amount to be recovered under a confiscation order where additional proceeds are discovered subsequent to the making of the confiscation order.
The Bill seeks to extend the scope of production orders to cover information that is likely to become available, as well as information which is already in existence, and to make it clear that it is an offence for a drug trafficker to launder his own proceeds of crime.
The Bill also provides, in line with the United Kingdom practices, that once a person has been proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt of a drug trafficking offence, the amount by which he has benefited should be determined on the standard of proof applicable to civil proceedings.
Likewise, the Bill seeks to introduce powers for authorized officers to seize specified property reasonably suspected to be the proceeds of drug trafficking, which is being imported into or exported from Hong Kong. The power to order forfeiture of such property will be given to the courts.
To bring the Ordinance in line with the United Nations Convention, the Bill seeks to establish a criminal offence of dealing in property, knowing that it is the proceeds of drug trafficking and provides for the recovery of income or other benefits derived from property which represents the proceeds of drug trafficking.
3308 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
Relevant bodies in the legal and financial sectors, namely, the Bar Association, the Law Society, the Hong Kong Association of Banks, the Hong Kong Deposit-taking Company Association, the Hong Kong Society of Accountants and the Securities and Futures Commission have been consulted in the course of the drafting of this Bill.
Thank you, Mr President.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
ORGANIZED AND SERIOUS CRIMES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
THE SECRETARY FOR SECURITY moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Organized and Serious Crimes Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I also move the Second Reading of the Organized and Serious Crimes (Amendment) Bill 1995.
The confiscation and money laundering provisions of the Organized and Serious Crimes Ordinance were modelled on the provisions of the Drug Trafficking (Recovery of Proceeds) Ordinance. In moving that the Drug Trafficking (Recovery of Proceeds) (Amendment) Bill be read a Second time, I have just explained the need for amending that Ordinance and the principal amendments proposed. To maintain compatibility and to achieve effective enforcement, it is necessary to make similar changes to the Organized and Serious Crimes Ordinance.
There are, however, two main differences between these two Bills: first, the Organized and Serious Crimes (Amendment) Bill does not contain amendments in respect of external confiscation orders, because the Organized and Serious Crimes Ordinance itself does not provide for such orders; secondly, this Bill does not provide powers of seizure and detention for the proceeds of the crime which are being imported into, or exported from, Hong Kong, because it is not considered essential for such powers to be sought beyond dealing with the proceeds of drug trafficking.
Thank you, Mr President.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3309 BUILDERS' LIFTS AND TOWER WORKING PLATFORMS (SAFETY) BILL Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 15 February 1995 Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to. Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
HOUSING (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 25 January 1995 Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to. Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
Committee Stage of Bills
Council went into Committee.
BUILDERS' LIFTS AND TOWER WORKING PLATFORMS (SAFETY) BILL
Clauses 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 12, 14, 18, 21 to 24, 26, 27, 28, 30 to 33, 36, 37, 38, 41, 42, 44 to 48, 50 and 51 were agreed to.
Clauses 2, 3, 6, 9, 10, 11, 13, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20, 25, 29, 34, 35, 39, 40, 43 and 49
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr Chairman, I move that the clauses be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.
These amendments are proposed for the Bill after we have carefully considered the comments of the Assistant Legal Adviser to this Council on the Bill and consultation with the Attorney General's Chambers.
3310 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
They involve the removal of an unnecessary definition in the Bill and the rewording of clauses so as to make their meanings more explicit. For the clauses in connection with the disciplinary tribunal and the appeal board, the amendments are to ensure that the Director of Electrical and Mechanical Services will be notified of the time and place of the hearings and to make it clear that the presence of a legal adviser at the hearings is to deal with legal matters. I confirm that these amendments would not change the Bill in any substantial manner.
Furthermore, I would like to add that the amendments proposed for the Chinese version of the Bill are intended to achieve more accurate translation and better presentation.
Mr Chairman, I commend the amendments to Members for favourable consideration.
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Proposed amendments
Clause 2
That clause 2(1) be amended -
(a) in paragraph (b) of the definition of "合資格㆟員", by deleting "能夠" and substituting "有能力".
(b) in the definition of "建築工㆞升降機工程", by deleting everything after "建 築或設備" and substituting "的安裝、投入運作、測試、保養、修理、更 改或拆卸有關連的工程，並包括該等工程的監督及證明和有關安裝設計 的證明；".
(c) in the definition of "塔式工作平台", by deleting "移動" where it first appears and substituting "流動".
(d) in the definition of "塔式工作平台工程", by deleting everything after "建築 或設備" and substituting "的安裝、投入運作、測試、保養、修理、更改 或拆卸有關連的工程，並包括該等工程的監督及證明和有關安裝設計的 證明；".
That clause 2(1) be amended, by deleting the definition of "hoist".
Clause 3
That clause 3(5) be amended, by adding "㆒份由署長簽署發出的" before "檢驗員".
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3311 Clause 6
That clause 6(3) be amended, by adding "㆒份由署長簽署發出的" before "承建商".
Clause 9
That clause 9 be amended -
(a) in paragraph (d), by deleting "有" where it secondly appears.
(b) in paragraph (1), by deleting "運行" where it twice appears and substituting "移動".
(c) in paragraph (m), by deleting "接觸" and substituting "觸及". (d) in paragraph (o)(ii), by deleting "聲浪" and substituting "響亮程度".
Clause 10
That clause 10 be amended -
(a) in paragraph (g), by deleting "有" where it secondly appears.
(b) in paragraph (i), by deleting "接觸" and substituting "觸及". (c) in paragraph (j)(ii), by deleting "聲浪" and substituting "響亮程度".
Clause 11
That clause 11(2) be amended, by deleting "修訂本" and substituting "修訂文本".
Clause 13
That clause 13 be amended, by deleting "須由" and substituting "只由".
Clause 15
That clause 15 be amended, by deleting "Before installing a builder's life or tower working platform for the first time in Hong Kong, a registered contractor" and substituting "Before a builder's lift or tower working platform is installed for the first time in Hong Kong, the registered contractor responsible for the installation".
3312 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
Clause 16
That clause 16 be amended, by deleting "在建築工㆞升降機或塔式工作平台於任何建築 工㆞安裝之前，註冊承建商" and substituting "註冊承建商於任何建築工㆞安裝任何建 築工㆞升降機或塔式工作平台之前",.
Clause 17
That clause 17(2) be amended, in paragraphs (h) and (i), by deleting "製造" and substituting "牌子".
Clause 19
That clause 19 be amended -
(a) in subclause (1) -
(i) by adding "以署長指明的表格" after "隨即";
(ii) by deleting "符合署長所指明的格式並".
(b) in subclause (6), by deleting "投入" and substituting "予以".
Clause 20
That clause 20 be amended -
(a) in subclause (2)(b), by adding "固定" before "支撐".
(b) in subclause (3) -
(i) by adding "以署長指明的表格" after "隨即";
(ii) by deleting "符合署長所指明的格式並".
(c) in subclause (6), by deleting "投入" and substituting "予以".
Clause 25
That clause 25(a) be amended, by deleting "需" and substituting "必".
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3313
Clause 29
That clause 29(a) be amended, by deleting "最高數目" and substituting "最多㆟數".
Clause 34
That clause 34 be amended -
(a) in subclause (1) by adding "and the Director" after "examiner".
(b) in subclause (3) by adding "legal" after "any".
Clause 35
That clause 35 be amended -
(a) in subclause (2), by deleting "免" and substituting "宥".
(b) in subclause (3), by deleting "、署長的有關費用及" and substituting "的繳 付及署長的有關費用或".
(c) in subclause (6), by deleting "放棄㆖訴通知書" and substituting "放棄㆖訴 的通知".
Clause 39
That clause 39 be amended -
(a) in subclause (1) by adding "and the Director" after "appellant".
(b) in subclause (5) by adding "legal" after "any".
Clause 40
That clause 40(3) be amended, by deleting "*" and substituting "的繳付及".
Clause 43
That clause 43(1) be amended, by deleting "的" where it secondly appears.
3314 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 Clause 49
That clause 49 be amended, by deleting "may be commenced within 6 months after the commission of the offence or within" and substituting "shall not be commenced more than 6 months after the commission of the offence or more than".
Question on the amendments proposed, put and agreed to.
Question on clauses 2, 3, 6, 9, 10, 11, 13, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20, 25, 29, 34, 35, 39, 40, 43 and 49, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.
HOUSING (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
Clauses 1 to 6, 8 and 9 were agreed to.
Clause 7
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING: Mr Chairman, I move that clause 7(2) of the Bill be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.
The original clause 7(2) provides that an appeal tribunal appointed under the proposed section 7A(6) of the Housing Ordinance, in determining an appeal, should have regard to the Hong Kong Housing Authority's policies that applied to the subject matter of the appeal, and which the Housing Authority relied on when it decided to terminate a lease or to issue a notice to quit to which the appeal relates. The proposed amendment to clause 7(2) ensures that the concerned appellant was or could reasonably be expected to have been aware of the Housing Authority's policies when it made the decision.
Mr Chairman, I beg to move.
Proposed amendment
Clause 7
That clause 7(2) be amended, by deleting the proposed section 20(2A) and substituting -
"(2A) (a) Paragraph (b) shall apply in relation to any policy of the Authority which is stated and specified as being such in a certificate in writing issued for the purposes of this subsection by the Authority's secretary and as regards which the certificate also certifies that the policy was both considered and applied by the Authority when deciding to terminate the lease or,
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3315
where appropriate, to issue the notice to quit to which the appeal relates.
(b) In considering an appeal under subsection (1) -
(i) if the tribunal concerned is satisfied that at the time of making the decision to which a certificate mentioned in paragraph (a)
relates, the appellant was aware of the policy or could
reasonably be expected to have been so aware, the tribunal
shall have regard to such policy; and
(ii) if such tribunal is not so satisfied, it may, where it considers it appropriate so to do, have regard to such policy.".
Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.
Question on clause 7, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.
New clause 7A Section Substituted
Clause read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 46(6).
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING: Mr Chairman, I move that new clause 7A as set out in the paper circulated to Members be read the Second time.
Clause 7A arises from our policy intention to deter the creation of mortgages or charges not authorized by the Housing Authority by making them void and rendering the offenders liable to prosecution. Legal advice is that clause 6 of the Bill only deals with the question of voidance and is not adequate to render those who create unauthorized mortgages or charges liable to prosecution. It would be inappropriate to take prosecution action on the basis of clause 6 of the Bill or the existing offence-creating section 27A of the Housing Ordinance. We therefore propose the addition of a new clause to clarify the legal position and to make people who lend or borrow on the basis of unauthorized mortgages or charges liable to prosecution.
Mr Chairman, I beg to move.
Question on the Second Reading of the clause proposed, put and agreed to. Clause read the Second time.
3316 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING: Mr Chairman, I move that new clause 7A be added to the Bill.
Proposed addition
New clause 7A
That the Bill be amended, by adding -
"7A. Section substituted
Section 27A is repealed and the following substituted -
"27A. Unlawful alienations, etc.
Where -
(a) a person whether as lender, borrower or otherwise
purports to create a mortgage of or otherwise charge
land or to assign or otherwise alienate land or to enter
into an agreement which relates to land; and
(b) the purported mortgage or other charge or the
purported assignment or other alienation or the
purported agreement is void by virtue of section 17B,
the person commits an offence and is liable to a fine of $200,000 and to imprisonment for 1 year.".".
Question on the addition of the new clause proposed, put and agreed to. Council then resumed.
Third Reading of Bills
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL reported that the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3317 BUILDERS' LIFTS AND TOWER WORKING PLATFORMS (SAFETY) BILL and HOUSING (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
had passed through Committee with amendments. He moved the Third Reading of the Bills. Question on the Third Reading of the Bills proposed, put and agreed to. Bills read the Third time and passed.
PRIVATE MEMBER'S MOTIONS
PRESIDENT: I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to time limits on speeches for the debates on the two motions: "Chinese Communist Party's Existence in Hong Kong after 1997" and "Travel Insurance" and Members were informed by circular on 24 April. The movers of the motions will have 15 minutes for their speeches including their replies. Other Members will have seven minutes for their speeches. Under Standing Order 27A, I am required to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue his speech.
CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY'S EXISTENCE IN HONG KONG AFTER 1997 MISS CHRISTINE LOH moved the following motion:
"That this Council urges the Hong Kong and British Governments to seek clarification from the Chinese Government as to whether an organ of the Chinese Communist Party will openly exist in Hong Kong after 1997, and, if so, what its functions will be."
MISS CHRISTINE LOH: Mr President, I rise to move the motion standing in my name in the Order Paper.
I appreciate that some people will consider it tactless, or unhelpful, or even provocative, to raise questions in public about the future role of the Chinese Communist Party in Hong Kong. Some even seem to suggest that I am part of some British or foreign conspiracy sowing doubts about Chinese rule after 1997.
We should have been demanding information and assurances about the Communist Party in Hong Kong a long time before this. But we have shied away from it, precisely because it was such a sensitive subject. To judge from
3318 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
the performance of the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs in this Chamber last week, there is still an attitude within the Government that, when there is a possibility of conflict between the interests of Hong Kong and the imagined sensibilities of the Chinese authorities, then the imagined sensibilities of Chinese authorities should come first.
Mr President, I see from the Order Paper today that the Official Members do not even wish to speak, that neither the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs nor the Secretary for Security is going to say anything. It must be one of the rare occasions when the Government feel so coiled that they are unable to utter anything.
It is surely too late for such deference. If nothing else, the approach of 1997 should be encouraging us all to concentrate our minds and to speak our minds on problems and uncertainties ahead. There are plenty of them, and they are not going to go away merely because we pretend that we cannot see them.
A columnist yesterday in the Wen Wei Po wrote that the Communist Party will not operate in Hong Kong after 1997 in the same way as it does on the mainland. Regrettably, the writer did not say how the Party will be different here. If the Chinese Communist Party does not like us asking questions about the Communist Party in Hong Kong, then it is taking the wrong attitude. The role of the Communist Party here may well prove to be an important element in the overall relationship between the central authorities in Peking and the local authorities here in Hong Kong. So, it can only be helpful to China, and Hong Kong alike, to shed light on the extent to which the Communist Party does operate, and will operate in Hong Kong, with the aim of ensuring that the role of the Party does not impinge on the "high degree of autonomy" which will be crucial to Hong Kong's continuing prosperity under Chinese sovereignty.
The Communist Party in China
Mr President, for those who insist that the Communist Party will not have a role in Hong Kong after 1997 because no role is prescribed in the Basic Law, let me start by quoting Article 2 of the Chinese Constitution.
Article 2 claims that: "All power in the People's Republic of China belongs to the people. The National People's Congress and the local people's congresses at various levels are the organs through which the people exercise state power. The people administer state affairs ..... through various channels ..... in accordance with the law".
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3319
In reality, where does power lie in China? Power in China belongs to the Chinese Communist Party, a body that is not even mentioned in the Constitution, except in the Preamble.
The Chinese Communist Party is an organization of some 50 million members. The leaders of the Communist Party are the leaders of China. The Government of China provides the muscle in the Chinese political system under the leadership of the Communist Party. The whole organizing principle of political and public life in China is that no person or organization may challenge the Communist Party's monopoly to power. That is why checks and balances which are common in many countries around the world are not tolerated in China. Nobody may check or balance the power of the Communist Party - not even the government.
The Communist Party formulates policy; the government carries it out. Communist Party cells within all organs of government, at all levels, keep watch from within, making sure that important decisions go the way the Party wants them to go. The governor of a province, supposedly elected and answerable to the local people's congress, is outranked by the party secretary of the provincial party committee who is appointed by the Party and answerable to party superiors. People's congresses, courts of law, academic institutions and state-owned enterprises all answer internally to the Party. The Party controls appointments to all significant jobs in government and public life, actively appointing candidates in the most senior positions, approving name-lists for less senior positions. Nothing moves very far in government in China, or politics, without the Party's say-so.
How do we explain the fact that the Constitution of China is completely silent as to the role of the Communist Party? We can be sure that it is not some sort of oversight because the Constitution was written at the Communist Party's direction. But more probably, the reason that the Chinese Constitution does not specify a role for the Chinese Communist Party is because the Party places itself above the Constitution. If the Communist Party were to define for itself a constitutional role, it would be accepting constitutional limits to its power, and it is not prepared to accept any such limits. It describes itself as providing "leadership" to the country, and leaves it at that.
Hong Kong
Mr President, I hope the analogy with Hong Kong and the Basic Law is too obvious to require much elaboration. The central flaw in the Basic Law may be as the same central flaw in the Chinese Constitution. There is no explanation of the role of the Communist Party, and therefore, no limits set upon what it can or cannot do.
Should we pretend that the Communist Party will take no active, or at least no determining part, in the government of Hong Kong after 1997? The Communist Party is already here, and has been here since the 1920s. It is well-
3320 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
organized, well-funded; it is politically active; it probably has several thousand members, and it is not going to go away.
Given that situation, what is there to stop the Communist Party trying to increase its share of power in Hong Kong after 1997? The answer is: nothing - unless the Communist Party restrains itself.
If the Communist Party does choose to assert itself in Hong Kong after 1997, it will presumably operate here much as it does in the rest of China. The Communist Party here would take order from the Party Central Committee in Peking, just like any other provincial-level committee. The institutions and systems of government described in the Basic Law could end up just being another facade behind which the Party will operate. The identity of the post-1997 Chief Executive would not matter very much as the identity of the party secretary. There could be party cells in each institution of government, and in each court of law, and in each college, and wherever there are important decisions to be made, which may include this Council, and the Party would supply the real government of Hong Kong.
How do we resist such a drift in that direction? Perhaps it will be irresistible. But obviously, we have to try because it would negate the high degree of autonomy promised to Hong Kong in the Joint Declaration. It would make Hong Kong hostage to the arbitrary power of a distant politburo which still has only hazy ideas about how modern economies work.
We must try to understand how the Communist Party operates now in Hong Kong, and how it evolves as 1997 approaches; and we must be ready to challenge it when necessary. For example, what will be the relationship between the future Chief Executive and the party secretary sent to Hong Kong after 1997? The Chief Executive will be answerable to the legislature under the Basic Law; but the party representative will be answerable to the Party in Peking. It may be that Chinese leaders have an enlightened approach regarding the role of the Communist Party in Hong Kong after 1997, but we need to hear directly from them what their plans are. The first step for Hong Kong to take is to break the taboo of silence. We can talk about the Party; we can ask questions about its future role. This is one of the purposes of this motion: to put the Communist Party and its role in Hong Kong high on the political agenda, where it belongs. There is no place in our society for a secret party, whether it has a lot, or a little power.
Learning from XU Jiatun's memoirs
The little "inside information" that is reliably and publicly known about the present operations of the Hong Kong branch of the Chinese Communist Party comes mostly from the recent memoirs of Mr XU Jiatun, the former Director of the Hong Kong Branch of the New China News Agency (NCNA). As Mr XU described his work:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3321
"I was to be the director (of Hong Kong NCNA), but my real job was the head of the Hong Kong and Macau Work Committee (of the Communist Party)"
When Mr XU was appointed in 1982, the Hong Kong and Macau Work Committee consisted of about 40 senior cadres. Below that committee were three subsidiary committees, and below them about 100 to 200 party groups with about 6 000 members in all, half recruited locally and half from the mainland. Mr XU does not give a size for the party membership when he left Hong Kong in 1990, but other sources suggest that a significant expansion during the 1980s, particularly of locally recruited members.
Mr XU's concluding words about the Communist Party organization in Hong Kong are worth quoting in full, because they raise a number of interesting questions. "In my opinion", wrote Mr XU:
"After 1997, the leading organ of the Work Committee should exist openly. But the grassroots organizations of the party should continue to play a secret role. Moreover, the Work Committee should be separated from the Hong Kong NCNA and be renamed the Hong Kong Region Work Committee. It should be run openly. However, after the return of sovereignty over Hong Kong to China, it is unreasonable that the Communist Party, the ruling party in China, will still be an underground party in Hong Kong whose activities are regarded as unlawful. Since the DAB (Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong) was formed, we can arrange for all or a large number of members of the underground party to join the DAB to preserve their roles as party members, and the DAB's platform will be their programme of action. All in all, this sensitive issue within the party and the society of Hong Kong must be discussed and resolved now, as 1997 is approaching".
Mr President, with the last sentiments at least, I hope we can all agree.
What is harder to understand is why Mr XU wanted the grassroots organizations of the Party to continue to play "a secret role", even if the Work Committee itself would operate openly.
What use can such secrecy possibly serve after 1997? It is hard to see what use it serves now. It enables some Communist Party members to pretend that they are not Communist Party members, and so to enjoy a degree of trust that they would probably not enjoy if the truth about Party membership were known. That may be a convenient state of affairs for them; but it is a very unhappy one for the rest of Hong Kong.
Some next moves
We should try to prepare ourselves for the realities of 1997 by looking those realities squarely in the face, and not allow the reassurances of the Basic
3322 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
Law to conceal them. As a first step, let us stop pretending that the Communist Party is not here, when it is.
- Let us make whatever changes in the law that are necessary for the Communist Party and any other political parties to operate legally and openly; and then let us oblige them to do so, particularly in the context of this year's Legislative Council elections.
- Let the media refer to Mr ZHOU Nan, not only as the Director of the NCNA, Hong Kong Branch, but to start calling him by his more direct title, the Head of the Hong Kong and Macau Work Committee of the Chinese Communist Party.
- If Mr XU Jiatun's analysis of the DAB is correct, and it serves as a cover for the members of the Communist Party in Hong Kong, let us have more transparency in that direction. Perhaps the Honourable TAM Yiu-chung, who is a DAB member, can enlighten us later.
- Let us also hear from the Hong Kong delegates to the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC), which is a united-front organization under the leadership of the Communist Party, how they interpret their constitutional obligation to uphold the leadership of the Party. In particular, let us hear from delegates to the CPPCC who are also members of this Council - the Honourable Peggy LAM and the Honourable LAU Wong-fat - how they "uphold" the leadership of the Party and whether that responsibility which they have taken on in any way conflicts with their responsibilities in this Council.
Let us hope, too, that the fact of this debate, will in turn stimulate a much wider debate in Hong Kong about the role of the Communist Party here, and will prompt the media to overcome its general shyness on the subject of the Communist Party.
To end, Mr President, such shyness has been encouraged by the fact that, for various historical reasons, it has suited the British and the Chinese Governments alike to keep a veil drawn over the existence of the Chinese Communist Party in Hong Kong. And because of that veil, it has been impossible, or at least very awkward, to talk about the Party's future role. But with 1997 approaching, it is vital that the role of the Party in Hong Kong is exposed to scrutiny, and its intentions clarified.
With these sentiments, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995 3323 PRESIDENT: Dr YEUNG Sum, a spokesman, I think, for the Democratic Party.
DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Mr President, I believe quite a number of Legislative Council Members would think there is not much real significance in the motion moved by Miss Christine LOH. I wonder who will believe that the Chinese Communist Party would not carry out any activity in Hong Kong. I believe the Chinese Communist Party's activities in Hong Kong will only increase after 1997, and will even become rampant with the Party knowing that it holds all the trump cards.
There are Members who are of the view that it would not be of much significance even if the Chinese Government clarifies in public the role played by the Communist Party in Hong Kong and the activities carried out. This is because experience tells us this: How many times have the Chinese Government honoured its promises to fully implement the policies it has publicly announced? Moreover, we know that it is "the party that overrides the state" and it is "the party that overrides the law", so that everything the party does will override both the state and the law. Therefore, what will be the significance of knowing the activities carried out by the Government Party in Hong Kong after 1997? "Such are the tiger's haunches which one may look, but must not touch," someone this it his way.
The responses mentioned above are indeed a reflection of the mentality of helplessness and resignation. Since the power of the Communist Party is paramount and there are no checks or balances, many Hong Kong people have in their minds adopted an "ostrich policy" and accepted beforehand all the possibilities. They feel disinclined to, or do not intend to, or even dare not raise the question they should raise or react in the correct way to the Communist Party's role and activities in Hong Kong after 1997. It could have been one of the attitudes mentioned above the Government has taken that leads to its official representative declining to speak today. Members may judge for themselves.
According to the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the Basic Law, apart from defence and foreign affairs, the Special Administrative Region (SAR) Government may deal with other matters of the SAR and give effect to the commitments that Hong Kong be governed by Hong Kong people, that Hong Kong be accorded a high degree of autonomy and that one country, two systems be practised.
Under the principle of "one country, two systems" and a high degree of autonomy, I think the people of Hong Kong are entitled to demand that the role and activities of the Chinese Communist Party in Hong Kong after 1997 should conform to the following principles:
(1) Both the role and the activities of the Communist Party in the SAR should be in keeping with the principle "one country, two systems
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and a high degree of autonomy", and that the Communist Party should abide by the laws of Hong Kong. In other words, the activities of the Community Party must not, I stress, must not override the the laws of Hong Kong, thus putting the party in a superior position of being above the law. That will be against the principle of one country, two systems and a high degree of autonomy, which people, especially Hong Kong people, will find abominable.
The rule of law is a major pillar to Hong Kong's success. Everyone or every organization must abide by the law and is in turn protected by it. Therefore, a definite measure of protection is available to safeguard personal rights and personal dignity as well as social opportunities. And everyone is equal before the law. I hope that the Chinese Communist Party will not cherish a sovereign state of mind and "lord it over the world the way a supreme ruler does", being indifferent to the rule of law and the legal system of Hong Kong. Otherwise, the confidence of Hong Kong people and the smooth running of Hong Kong society will be severely affected and the international community confidence in Hong Kong will thus be shaken.
(2) There should be more transparency with regard to the Communist Party's activities in Hong Kong after 1997, and such transparency should be maintained so that the confidence of Hong Kong people will not be shaken. Judging from past experience and the Communist Party's past record, Hong Kong people are afraid and suspicious of the Communist Party. This is indisputable. Therefore, it will be paying respect to the basic principle of "one country, two systems" for the Communist Party, of its own accord, to inject more transparency into its activities in Hong Kong after 1997 and render an account to Hong Kong people of what it does. This indeed is what the Chinese Government proposed.
Mr President, I think Hong Kong people are highly apprehensive of the Communist Party's activities in Hong Kong after 1997, and the two recommendations made by the Democratic Party are fair and reasonable; the recommendations are also in keeping with the spirit and principle of "one country, two systems". Miss Christine LOH is moving the motion to urge the British Government to seek clarification from the Chinese Government as to the role and activities of the Communist Party in Hong Kong in the future; if both Governments can positively respond to the motion, it will help to alleviate the misgivings of Hong Kong people.
What is feared will come by one day. If we just live in fear, sit back and care nothing about public affairs and politics, it will be just a kind of running away. Hong Kong people should give play to the "spirit of a master" in running Hong Kong, and should also face up to the role and activities of the Communist
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Party in Hong Kong in a legitimate and reasonable manner; the Chinese Communist Party should also be asked to abide by the laws of Hong Kong and conform to the "one country, two systems" principle or an equal footing. If one is excessively afraid of the activities of the Communist Party in Hong Kong after 1997, it will be an overly passive attitude. Similarly, it will be unwise to soft-soap the Communist Party and to "shine its shoes" hard. Nor will it be wise to cherish an overly deferential attitude in maintaining that even discussion of this very topic is anathema and, offensive to the authorities concerned.
Mr President, with these remarks, Members from the Democratic Party are in support the motion.
MR ALLEN LEE (in Cantonese): Mr President, the ruling party in China is the Communist Party which is represented by the Xinhua News Agency in Hong Kong. How unusual it is for the Chinese authorities to have a representative organ here? The ruling party in Taiwan is the Kuomintang which is represented by the Chung Hwa Travel Service in Hong Kong. It is not surprising to find that the Kuomintang has its representative organ here which is active too. The motion moved by Miss Christine LOH today is in the following terms: "That this Council urges the Hong Kong and British Government to seek clarification from the Chinese Government as to whether an organ of the Chinese Communist Party will openly exist in Hong Kong after 1997, and, if so, what its functions will be." Is there anyone who does not know that the Chinese Communist Party's representative organ has already been existing in Hong Kong? I believe the question as contained in the motion will put both the Hong Kong and British Governments in an awkward position. As far as I know, the Hong Kong Government is not prepared to answer it. In my opinion, the Hong Kong Government is trying to avoid it. The Government should indeed make its attitude clear.
Mr President, I think only Miss LOH herself knows the true motive behind her motion. Hong Kong, which will be a Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China after 1 July 1997, will become an integral part of China and their relationship will be one which is inseparable. Nevertheless, some will choose to play on Hong Kong people's wariness towards the Communists to vigorously preach fear of, dread for and resistance against, the Communist Party. Although the year 1997 is yet to arrive, they are averring that the Chinese authorities will not comply with the Sino-British Joint Declaration and will disregard the Basis Law, not to mention enforcing it. They are also asserting that the Communists will interfere with Hong Kong's affairs. Mr President, Hong Kong is a society subject to the rule of law. Allow me to refer them to the Basic Law!
Mr President, no ruling party in the world is infallible, be it the ruling party of a Western European country, or the United States, or Canada or any other country. The Chinese Communist Party, since it founded the People's Republic in 1949, has committed a lot of mistakes, which have contributed to
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Hong Kong people's doubts and apprehensions with regard to the way the Party conducts itself. Quite a number of people in Hong Kong had experienced various political movements in China, including "the movements against the three evils and the five evils", "let a hundred flowers bloom" and the Cultural Revolution. During the years from 1952 to 1954, when "the movements against the three evils and the five evils" were under way, which are famous political movements in the Party's history, my family was also denounced. Past events in that era will remain fresh in the memory of older people in Hong Kong who came from China.
In May 1983, I visited Beijing and explained to the Chinese leadership the worries of Hong Kong people. Some Legislative Councillors also accompanied me on that trip. So I quite understand Hong Kong people's mentality. I cannot agree to the use of gimmicks or high sounding talk in order to galvanize the sentiments of Hong Kong people. What we have to look at and consider is the current political line which is being adopted by China. China is making progress at an amazing speed since it first conducted reforms and adopted the open-door policy in 1979. Even the Western countries are astonished by her achievements. Hong Kong people should do their best to contribute to the development and the future of our country. I therefore find Miss LOH's motion hard to understand. Why does she question only the future development of the Chinese Communist Party in Hong Kong? The Kuomintang of Taiwan has also indicated that it will continue its development in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region after 1997. Further, political parties of other countries might also remain active after 1997. Why does Miss LOH not bother to ask questions about them?
They Liberal Party hopes that we will have a smooth transition in the next two years. Be pragmatic is more important than galvanizing Hong Kong people's sentiments. It is our earnest hope that Hong Kong will be as prosperous and stable in 1997 as it is today and that we can create a better future through our co-operation with China so that the Chinese people will become affluent and our country will become strong.
Mr President, the Liberal Party will vote against the motion today.
MRS ELSIE TU: Mr President, I also find it difficult to understand why such a motion has been moved in this Council, unless it is to create maximum worry among already worried Hong Kong residents, the vast majority of whom have already indicated clearly their wish to stay out of politics and get along peacefully with their lives. Many of them have other issues to worry about, such as employment, inflation, housing and so on, as well as past activities, mistakes made by China.
The anti-China camp has in the past two or three years bolstered the hopes of the Hong Kong people that they can pressurize China, with some international assistance, into changing the Basic Law to their own liking. Surely these activists
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are aware that the more pressure they put on China, the harder China will resist any changes.
I think I have on a previous occasion referred to the story of the competition between the wind and the sun as to which was the stronger and could force a man to take off his winter coat. The wind tried first, but the harder it blew the more the man held on to this coat, until finally the wind gave up trying and allowed the sun to have a try. The sun shone brightly and warmly, and in a very short time the man of his own accord threw off his coat.
The anti-China camp is behaving like the wind in the hope of pushing China into submission. The only thing this camp has overlooked is China's pride which has been wounded by centuries of pressure through foreign interference. There is no likelihood that China will yield to foreign-backed local pressures.
I am afraid that the anti-China camp which welcomed the Governor's ill-advised, undemocratic and rather devious political reforms, now realizes that they are not going to succeed in being Superman saving Hong Kong in 1997. With foreign passports in their pockets, however, they can continue to try to destabilize Hong Kong, knowing that they will not be the ones to have to face the consequences.
Having assisted in the breakdown of talks between Britain and China, these anti China activists are now trying to cause panic by suggesting that there may be communists hiding under everyone's bed. Now they demand to know what will be the functions of the Communist Party, if any, after 1997.
The Joint Declaration is an international agreement which Britain and China have both promised to observe. If we presume, as the anti-China lobby is trying to convince us, that China will not observe the "one country, two systems" agreement, what will we achieve except to create panic among the Hong Kong people and damage our economy upon which the people depend for their daily lives? If it is true, as these activists obviously think, that China cannot be trusted to carry out the international agreement, this motion still has no relevance, because it would be within the military strength of China to impose on Hong Kong any system she wishes, though I hasten to add that there is no sign that China is likely to do so, if only for her own good.
In fact, the only hope for the Hong Kong people to continue their way of life for 50 years after 1997 is to trust the "one country, two systems" agreement, and to speak up if China is seen to be breaking it after 1997. To indicate mistrust before 1997 is courting trouble. One must keep in mind that China was not compelled to make this agreement at all after the expiry of the lease. She could have given notice to take over unconditionally, just as India took back Goa in recent history. But China has made an agreement, and if we do not trust it, can the anti-China camp tell us what the alternative is?
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If there is a communist cell in Hong Kong (and the mover of the motion seems to know something that I do not know about that), it apparently has not caused any instability so far. All the boat-rocking is coming from the other camp. It would not be in China's interests to rock the Hong Kong boat. Past history has shown clearly that China observed the unequal treaties made in the last century. What evidence is there that she will not keep the latest agreement with Britain? Open mistrust at this time can have only negative effects, and this makes me wonder what is the purpose of this motion.
Mr President, I oppose the motion.
MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, I speak in support of the motion moved by Miss Christine LOH to seek clarification from the Chinese Government as to whether an organ of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) will openly exist in Hong Kong after 1997, and, if so, what its functions will be.
Mr President, I am very angry and I regret that Mrs Elsie TU has said that there is an "anti-China camp". I do not understand why she has repeated the term "anti-China camp" 10 to 20 times in her speech. I believe such words would incite China to adopt a hostile attitude towards Hong Kong. I therefore find it a great pity that someone who has, for many years, served the Legislative Council and the people of Hong Kong should say such a thing to cause division between Hong Kong people and the Chinese Government.
Mr President, everyone knows that the CCP has been in existence in Hong Kong for many years. However, its activities are a closely-guarded secret. Many people dare not talk about it openly because some of them are afraid that "accounts will be settled in due course". The long-lasting fear it has created affects the whole territory. Everyone knows that the activities of the CCP are very secretive and a lot of things about the CCP cannot be revealed. The Hong Kong Government and the British Government knew all about it. In fact, the Chinese Government is not the same as the CCP but, very unfortunately, the topic of the CCP was omitted from the negotiations over the Hong Kong question nor was the topic taken cognizance of when the Sino-British Joint Declaration was signed. That is a very big mistake. I think it is even a greater pity that the Government is unwilling to speak on the motion today.
Mr President, to find out the attitude of the British Government towards the CCP, I need only refer to the information which I have obtained over these 10 years or so as a member of the press. There is in fact no provision in the Laws of Hong Kong which suggests that the CCP or the Kuomintang is an unlawful society, unlike the triad societies. There are laws in Hong Kong which provide that it is an offence to be a member of a triad society. However, membership of the CCP is not an offence. Until 1992, the Societies Ordinance of Hong Kong clearly stipulated that societies in Hong Kong shall not have any connection with foreign political organizations or bodies; if they do, the Commissioner of Police may refuse to grant them registration. However, in
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1992, such a provision was repealed because the Government recognized that it was in contravention of the freedom of association provided under the Bill of Rights. But unfortunately, the Chinese Government has decided to revive the provision in the guise of Article 23 of the Basic Law. Hence, this provision which contravenes the Bill of Rights, will come back to us after 1997 by virtue of the Basic Law. In fact, why does the Hong Kong Government have such a strange attitude? When I was a reporter, a government official had once told me that it was the Government's policy not to clarify the status of the CCP and the Kuomintang. So long as they did not conduct activities openly, the Government would tolerate them and it would "spare the rat and save the dishes". Mr Allen LEE said earlier on that the Xinhua News Agency and other bodies were carrying out activities here. But apparently, in the eyes of the British Hong Kong Government, activities undertaken by the Government are quite different from those conducted by the party. Otherwise, there is no reason for fear.
Mr President, an incident which occurred in June 1987 made the British Hong Kong Government feel uneasy. I was referring to the occasion when Guangdong openly elected 71 representatives to attend the Party Congress of the CCP. They included four Hong Kong representatives who were Mr XU Jiatun, Director of the Xinhua News Agency (NCNA) of Hong Kong; Mr ZHENG Hua, Deputy Director of NCNA; Mr MAO Junnian, Deputy Secretary General and Miss CHEN Fengying, Assistant to the Director. Mr President, the Hong Kong Government had told me in private that it was very worried and it thought that the whole thing was a mistake. Guangdong should not have revealed the identities of the 71 representatives including the four Hong Kong representatives. That would cause embarrassment to the British Hong Kong Government because that showed that there were CCP members in Hong Kong. However, since the Government then was already almost "a lame duck", it did not respond in any way. Certainly, we will remember that MAO Junnian joined NCNA in 1985. Before that, he had graduated from the University of Hong Kong and had taught in the Methodist College for many years. Many people were very surprised when he joined NCNA. However, people understood that he might well have been an undercover CCP member for years. When the time was ripe for him to reveal his identity, he joined NCNA as Secretary in charge of Culture and Education. In fact, there are many undercover CCP members. Miss Christine LOH has spoken of thousands of CCP members, but actually it is unclear whether there are thousands or tens of thousands. I do not know how many CCP members there are even in the Legislative Council, perhaps more than two, three or four. Some are undercover life members, like Mr JIN Yaoru, former Chief Editor of Wen Wei Po. Undercover life members do not reveal their identities. It was only when the CCP revoked Mr JIN's membership then his identity was revealed.
Mr President, we really have to ask this question: If the Sino-British Joint Declaration has guaranteed that the capitalistic system of Hong Kong will remain unchanged for 50 years, what role can the CCP possibly play under such a system? My view is that the CCP can exist together with other political parties
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of Hong Kong but it cannot be the governing party unless we have the situation that the CCP rules in order to practise capitalism in Hong Kong. Mr XU Jiatun held a briefing for the press in June 1987. Some of the reporters here might have attended that briefing too. Mr XU told the press that the role of the CCP after 1997 would be to assist the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government. Mr President, that was a dubious remark. What does "assist" mean? At that time, the Chinese Government had mobilized its supporters to oppose the proposal of having direct elections in 1988. Mr XU Jiatun had also said that he could mobilize a force of 50 000 "sons of the people" to oppose the proposal of having direct elections in 1988.
Mr President, I would also like to mention another incident which I experienced as a reporter. It happened sometime in June 1986 when the Special Group Concerned with the Political Structure under the Basic Law Drafting Committee was having a meeting in Shenzhen. I remember that Mr LI Hou, then Deputy Director of the Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Office, gave an interview to reporters. I asked him whether the CCP would continue to exist in Hong Kong after 1997, what its role would be and whether these matters would be written down in the Basic Law. Mr LI Hou said it was not a question of existence. He said the CCP had been in existence all along, but it would not carry out activities openly, nor would these matters be written down in the Basic Law. However, it would be "very difficult to say" if party politics emerged. Mr President, party politics has already emerged to make its appearance. We hope that the British Hong Kong Government can understand the worries of Hong Kong people and ask the Chinese Government what the CCP's role in Hong Kong will be after 1997. Will it do its work openly like the Chinese Government does, or will it carry out a lot of secretive activities including investigation of the personal data of Hong Kong people, building of dossiers and "settlement of accounts in due course" and so on?
Mr President, the people of Hong Kong are very afraid of the CCP. I will therefore support the motion, urging the British Hong Kong Government to convey our worries to the Chinese Government without delay.
MR NGAI SHIU-KIT (in Cantonese): Mr President, I do not intend to speak at any appreciable length on the motion moved by Miss Christine LOH today which puts Members of this Council to a debate on the activities and the role of the Chinese Communist Party in Hong Kong after 1997. I only want to say a few words.
One of the points I would like to raise is that this is indeed a frivolous motion which is going to waste the precious time of Members of this Council. It is because the government to be set up after 1997 will naturally handle and be held responsible for post 1997 matters in a way that conforms to the Basic Law. All I can say is that Miss LOH is very childish and naive in proposing this motion. There is a well-known Chinese saying which is rightly pertinent to this
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situation - "What has it got to do with you when a spring breeze ruffles the surface of the pond?"
Mr President, with these remarks, I oppose the motion.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, those who have read XU Jiatun's memoirs or those who understand the operation of the Chinese Communist Party will know that under the Hong Kong branch of the Xinhua News Agency there is a body named Hong Kong and Macau Work Committee. Its terms of reference has always been a mystery. It is, however, generally believed that the Hong Kong and Macau Work Committee is a sub branch of the Chinese Communist Party in Hong Kong and I think we all have a tacit understanding of the Communist Party's activities in Hong Kong.
Yet, it is only natural that the people of Hong Kong are having misgivings with regard to the activities of the Communist Party in Hong Kong as 1997 draws near. The Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood agrees that it is necessary for the Chinese Communist Party to tell the people of Hong Kong clearly whether it is going to set up in the territory a body representing the Communist Party in order to allay the anxieties of the people of Hong Kong. We believe that if the Chinese Communist Party continues to carry out covert activities in Hong Kong, the confidence of the people of Hong Kong will consequently be undermined. But if the Communist Party carries out high-profile activities after its existence is made public, the people of Hong Kong will still worry about the Communist Party formally intervening in Hong Kong affairs and bringing its leverage to bear on the political activities of Hong Kong. Therefore, I think it is indeed necessary for the Chinese Communist Party to explain officially to the public its activities and terms of reference in Hong Kong after 1997. In addition, under Hong Kong law, we have no power to prohibit the setting up of legitimate organizations. But if the Chinese Communist Party is really going to set up its representive body in Hong Kong according to the law, we hope hat the Chinese Communist Party, in carrying out its activities in the territory, will carefully appraise the sentiment and reaction of the people of Hong Kong in order to prevent unnecessary upheavals.
With these remarks, I support the motion.
MR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, Miss Christine LOH is providing a chance today for some people to ingratiate themselves with the Party.
Many Chinese constitution experts have pointed out that today's China is still at a primitive stage where "the Party ranks above the government", or "where the functions of the Party and the State overlap". It is written in the Constitution of the People's Republic of China that: "Under the leadership of the Communist Party of China ....., the Chinese people of all nationalities will
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continue to adhere to the people's democratic dictatorship ....." The Vice Chairman of the Constitution Revision Committee of the PRC, PENG Zhen, said in 1982: "It is under the leadership of the Communist Party that the Constitution and the laws are enacted and abided by. In China, the Constitution and the laws epitomize the unification of the Party's precepts and the people's will." Evidently, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is in itself more than an ordinary ruling party. It is a "dictatorial party" which holds on to power through recourse to coercive measures. China is being led by this omnipotent and omnipresent leviathan. From this perspective, CCP-instituted organizations such as the so called Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Committee is, to put it bluntly, essentially a small branch organ set up by the Zhongnanhai Government in Hong Kong. Under such circumstances, will slogans like "one country, two systems", "Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong", and "high degree of autonomy" be realized? By what means can the Basic Law make it possible for Hong Kong to avoid coming under the direct leadership of the CCP? Such is really a cause for worry.
Furthermore, as Hong Kong Human Rights Commission has pointed out, it is really absurd and self-contradictory that while the restoration of the registration system under the Societies Ordinance is fully supported by the Preliminary Working Committee, left-wing organizations are among the first to regard the system with contempt. It appears that left wing organizations are still clinging to their old habits of not submitting to the law but yet using the law as a political tool to deal with dissidents; even the mere broaching of it for discussion by other people is regarded as anathema.
Nevertheless, Mr President, with the belief that "all are equal before the law", I am of the view that CCP's organizations should register the way other societies do. Under the guiding principle of "equality", there is no reason whatsoever that the CCP should have the privilege to establish within the territory an "independent kingdom" not subject to the laws of Hong Kong, lest the reputation of Hong Kong as a place which observes the rule of law be blemished.
Mr President, if we were to conduct a survey on whether the CCP has a popular mandate, I believe the findings would be that the public would regard the CCP as more obnoxious and more objectionable than triad societies or the Mafia. This is because even the illegal activities of triad societies are subject to police raids, but the paramountcy of the CCP is such that it is above the law. It could even resort to tanks and bullets to suppress dissidents and bare-handed citizens. Fear of a domineering CCP in post-1997 Hong Kong is the reason why so many Hong Kong people would uproot themselves and emigrate. That is really a cause for regret.
As a matter of fact, the vengeful nature of the CCP has probably caused certain Members, possibly some officials as well, to refrain from making any remark here. But then why do we insist that the Chinese Government should clarify the roles and functions of the CCP in post-1997 Hong Kong? This is
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because every single document relating to the future of Hong Kong has all avoided mentioning the de facto role of the CCP. More importantly, the CCP in our eyes is an out and-out "double-dealer", whose operations just cannot be told from the official documents of the Chinese government, still less its specific roles and duties in Hong Kong. But the implication will become all the more worrying if the CCP, however obscure it may appear, is to bring to our future Hong Kong the corruption which is so rife in mainland China and to endanger our human rights and freedoms on the political front. And yet the CCP will not subject to the laws of Hong Kong so much so that even the Independent Commission Against Corruption will fail to restrain it. Mr President, I challenge the Government if it is courageous enough to maintain the rule of law in Hong Kong impartially. Will the Government treat all organizations, including the CCP, equally?
Mr President, with these remarks, I support the motion.
DR PHILIP WONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, we all know that the existence of the Communist Party and other political parties in Hong Kong is the result of historical developments. According to the constitution of China, the Communist Party of China is the ruling party. Its legal status vis-a-vis the whole country, including all provinces, cities and autonomous regions, is beyond question. As to how Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong and a high degree of autonomy are to be realized after Hong Kong reverts to Chinese sovereignty in 1997, the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law have made express and clear provisions to that effect. The future Special Administrative Region (SAR) Government will continue to enact specific laws under the conception of "one country, two systems". And the present Legislative Council, which is an advisory body to advise the Governor on legislative matters established in accordance with the Letters Patent and Royal Instructions, has no legal right to intervene in the business of the SAR after 1997, let alone to intervene in the sovereign rights of China. Say, can we move a motion to "call upon" the Chinese Government to request the British Government to "clarify" what changes are going to take place within the Conservative Party of the United Kingdom or what role the Conservative Party (or the Labour Party) intends to play in Hong Kong after 1997? If we really did so, would it be absurd in terms of international law? Just as the Chinese Foreign Minister, Mr QIAN Qichen, pointed out to the British Foreign Secretary in New York earlier, one should not overreach one's arm. Therefore, I feel that this motion today is not justified in terms of jurisprudence.
These are my remarks.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, some would find it strange if I did not speak today as the Honourable Christine LOH has mentioned the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB) and my name.
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However, if I strongly criticized her, it would only serve to flatter her and that is something that I would not want to do.
Some would say that in so behaving I am ingratiating myself with the Party. Perhaps some people are declaring their anti-communist stand in order to account themselves to some quarter or another. I really do not want to have Members attacking one another in this Chamber, which is indeed meaningless. In fact, instances of personal attacks are becoming less frequent than it used to be because we have been talking a lot about livelihood issues. But now Miss LOH has come up with such a good topic that it would let Members, some Members in particular, to launch an all-out attack against the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Of course, sometimes criticisms have the merits of galvanizing a political party or organization into improving itself. But sometimes they may have precisely the opposite effect. I, of course, hope that this will not be the case.
Some Members say that the people of Hong Kong are very much scared of the CCP. The Chinese Government is led by the CCP at present, and this Chinese Government which is led by the CCP has created the concept of “one country, two systems” as the solution to the Hong Kong issue so that Hong Kong will be allowed to be ruled by Hong Kong people and enjoy a high degree of autonomy. These policies are supported by most of the people of Hong Kong. Therefore, I feel that the local people are not that afraid of the CCP. What they fear is that the Party might become unstable, that is to say, politically unstable. That would lead to economic troubles and other woes. It is because, as the ruling party of China, if the CCP is not stable, that is, if the CCP is not politically stable, it will in no way be in the interests of Hong Kong, and the concept of “one country, two systems” and “Hong Kong, people ruling Hong Kong” may also go wrong. Hence, to say that the public is scared, we will have to see what they are scared of.
I feel that whatever party it may be that is in power, what matters most is whether it is sincere towards Hong Kong. If we say too much, or if we just want to arouse the fleeting concern of the media so that a general “communist-phobia” results, I feel that it will in no way be in the interest of Hong Kong. I myself and the DAB will not do that. We hope that Members will work together with one heart to create a splendid future for Hong Kong.
Thank you, Mr President.
MR MARTIN LEE (in Cantonese): Mr President, it is said that Hong Kong people are afraid of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). But if they read enough about what has been said in the Legislative Council, I believe that many of them will begin to realize that some of the Members, the Honourable TAM Yiu-chung excluded, are even more terrifying than the CCP. Mr TAM is excluded because he was being fair and reasonable in what he said in his speech, and I appreciate his speech. Indeed, I cannot see why senior officials are so
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frightened when confronted with the issue. As I look around in this Chamber, I seem to see only two government officials seated here. I must say I congratulate them on their presence because at least they have the courage to be here. What surprises me, however, is that Mr Nicholas NG has failed to turn up. Is it because Mr NG was questioned too many times at the last meeting or is it because the motion has nothing to do with him? How strange this is!
I doubt whether the same motion can be moved after 1997. I have asked myself this question: Even if the motion could be moved then in this Council, would any one of us be courageous enough to be seated here to listen to the mover’ speech? Would there be a quorum? Would everybody rather have stayed home because sitting here would cause misunderstanding of some sort? If one among us was elected President, would he or she even fail to show up? It is a pity that I needed to ask these questions. Why are we, as Legislative Councillors, berated for putting forward some issues for discussion because of the particular topic chosen? It has been said that the motion is a frivolous motion. Those cherishing such thoughts may choose to keep silent, but they deliberately did not.
In fact, it would not be difficult for the Chinese Government to answer the question. All it needs to say is: “The Chinese Communist Party hopes to remain China’s ruling party after 1997.” This statement will be absolutely correct, because all ruling parties want to continue to be in power. It may go on to say: “Owing to the existence of the Joint Declaration, Hong Kong will not adopt a communist system”. This has been clearly stated in the Joint Declaration, although the word being used is “socialist” instead. But then, “socialism” of course includes “communism”. The Chinese Government can indeed make the second statement, which can put our hearts at ease. The Chinese Government may add further: “So in future one mission of the Chinese Communist Party is to defend the Joint Declaration.” This mission is the same as that of the Democratic Party! If everybody looks at the issue in this way, that is, in more or less the same way as that adopted by the Honourable TAM Yiu-chung, nobody need to be afraid. On the contrary, the more reluctant one is to face the issue, the more terrifying will the issue become. The more one berates others, the more frightening one will become. So, Mr President, I hope that after this debate, Legislative Councillors will not be afraid of any sensitive issues. All issues should be frankly canvassed and analyzed. We are all adults. In fact, this Council does not allow those under 18 to sit here, unless they are seated in the public gallery. I hope all of us may in future look at sensitive issues in the same way we are doing this time; otherwise, we would not have been qualified to occupy seats in the Legislative Council.
With these remarks, I support the motion.
MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, an article in a magazine published in February 1995 contained certain information relating to Miss Christine LOH’s background. The article revealed that Miss LOH’s father came
3336 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 26 April 1995
to Hong Kong from Shanghai in 1949 and married a woman in Hong Kong in 1955. Miss LOH is their only child. Her mother held a very high-ranking position. She was the department head of a department store and was always dressed up to the nines. I am quoting from the magazine. When Miss LOH was still under the age of 10, her parents divorced. She now understands why his father kept maintaining his Shanghainese lifestyle since coming to Hong Kong in the 1950s, for example, he played mahjong with his friends, made friends with ladies and conversed in Shanghainese dialect with his friends. As a result, it became increasingly difficult for her mother to find a cultural common ground with her father. In the end, her father married again and her mother married a foreigner. Since her childhood days .....
MR JAMES TO: Order!
PRESIDENT: What is the point of order?
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to know whether this speech contains an element of insult and whether it is relevant to the motion.
PRESIDENT: The only possible point of order is relevance, but I assume Mr CHIM will come to it.
MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, it is for Miss LOH to decide whether what I have quoted is relevant to the motion or not. It is not for Mr James TO to raise that question, May I know which part of my speech has offended Mr TO. Mr President, if ......
PRESIDENT: I am sorry, Mr CHIM, listen to me. Any Member can take a point of order and it is for me to rule. Your speech has got to be relevant but a great deal of latitude is allowed to Members to make their points. I assume there will be some relevance to these observations. But do continue.
MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, I am absolutely entitled to protect my right to speak in this Chamber. If I am out of order, you may require me to leave the Chamber immediately, or I would have to exercise my right to speak. I was quoting from the magazine. If it is not true, Miss LOH can sue the magazine for libel. Mr President, you may rule that I am out of order and require me to leave the Chamber. Otherwise, I will uphold my right as a Councillor to say all I want to say.
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