HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1807 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 25 January 1995
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
PRESENT
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE SIR JOHN SWAINE, C.B.E., LL.D., Q.C., J.P.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE MR MICHAEL LEUNG MAN-KIN, C.B.E., J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE SIR NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, K.B.E., J.P.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D., J.P. THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1808 THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI
THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA
THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, O.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN
DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1809 THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO
THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALFRED TSO SHIU-WAI
ABSENT
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM
IN ATTENDANCE
MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1810
MR JAMES SO YIU-CHO, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL SZE CHO-CHEUNG, I.S.O., J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE
MR ANTHONY GORDON EASON, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
MR HAIDER HATIM TYEBJEE BARMA, I.S.O., J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT
MR DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY
MR NICHOLAS NG WING-FUI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS
MR MICHAEL DAVID CARTLAND, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES
MR DOMINIC WONG SHING-WAH, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING
MRS KATHERINE FOK LO SHIU-CHING, O.B.E., J.P. SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE
MRS ELIZABETH MARGARET BOSHER, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES
MR KENNETH JOSEPH WOODHOUSE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG
THE DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL
MR LAW KAM-SANG
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1811 PAPERS
The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject
Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No.
Dangerous Goods (General) (Amendment)
Regulation 1995 ................................................................................. 12/95
Fire Service (Installation Contractors)
(Amendment) Regulation 1995 .......................................................... 13/95
Official Languages (Alteration of Text) (Small
Claims Tribunal Ordinance) Order 1995 ............................................ 14/95
Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance (Public
Markets) (Designation and Amendment of Tenth
Schedule) Order 1995......................................................................... 15/95
Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance
(Public Pleasure Grounds) (Amendment of Fourth
Schedule) Order 1995......................................................................... 16/95
Declaration of Markets in the Urban Council Area
(Amendment) Declaration 1995 ......................................................... 17/95
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)
(Jury Ordinance) Order.................................................................... (C)1/95
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)
(Small Claims Tribunal Ordinance) Order....................................... (C)2/95
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)
(Factors Ordinance) Order............................................................... (C)3/95
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)
(Books Registration Ordinance) Order ............................................ (C)4/95
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)
(Pawnbrokers Ordinance) Order...................................................... (C)5/95
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)
(Hong Kong Arts Centre Ordinance) Order..................................... (C)6/95
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1812 Sessional Papers 1994-95
No. 60 — Urban Council Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Financial Year 1995-96
No. 61 — The Hong Kong Academy for Performing Arts Annual Report July 1993 to June 1994
No. 62 — Revisions of the 1994-95 Estimates Approved by the Urban Council during the Third Quarter of the 1994-95 Financial Year
ADDRESS
The Hong Kong Academy for Performing Arts Annual Report July 1993 to June 1994
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Mr President, I am happy to present the 1993-94 Annual Report of the Hong Kong Academy for Performing Arts (the Academy) together with its financial statement and auditor's report to the Council today. This report covers the year ending on 30 June 1994.
The past year has seen major changes in the top management of the Academy. However, the Academy has continued to deliver quality training to its students under the fine leadership of Mr LO King-man, M.B.E., J.P., who has replaced Dr John HOSIER, C.B.E., as Director of the Academy.
The pursuit of the highest international standards remains the aim of the Academy. In this regard, the Academy has benefited from the wide professional experience of its teaching staff. The international experience and contacts of the three new Deans in the Schools of Dance, Music and Technical Arts (Theatre) who have joined the Academy during the year has also helped to attract renowned visiting artists to work with the students. The value of such exposure is enormous in encouraging and stimulating the development of the students.
In 1993-94, there were a total of 586 full-time Tertiary students and 812 part-time Junior students. Recognition of the talents of the Academy's students has been demonstrated by the substantial audiences for the Academy's concerts and performances and the numerous invitations to perform at overseas events. Recently, for example, the Academy's students represented Hong Kong in the ceremonial and cultural events of the 1994 Commonwealth Games in Canada. They have done extremely well in promoting the image of Hong Kong internationally. Furthermore, during the 1993-94 academic year, 27 students won prizes in various local and international competitions.
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As regards academic programme development, in September 1993, the Schools of Dance and Technical Arts (Theatre) admitted their first year of Bachelor of Fine Arts students. To date a total of four degree courses are being offered. The School of Technical Arts is now working on the development of another degree course in TV/Film. It is estimated that the course may be introduced in 1996.
I am impressed by the tremendous progress made by the Academy over the past 10 years since its establishment. The Academy now plays a very important role in the local performing arts scene. Today, there is no area of performing arts activity in Hong Kong which is not touched by the Academy's students, graduates or staff. Looking forward, I am sure that the Academy will continue to make a significant contribution in raising the standard of performing arts in Hong Kong and to be an institution of which we in Hong Kong can all be justifiably proud.
Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to add a special word of appreciation and thanks to Dr Helmut SOHMEN, O.B.E., who retired from the chairmanship of the Academy Council on 31 December 1994. During his eight years' outstanding service, Dr SOHMEN led the Academy through a critical period of growth and development to attain its present status as the foremost degree-awarding institution in Southeast Asia for professional education and training in the performing and related technical arts. This is an excellent achievement and provides a sound legacy to Mr YAO Kang, O.B.E., J.P., who succeeded Dr SOHMEN as Chairman in January 1995. I am sure under Mr YAO's capable chairmanship, the Academy will be moving from strength to strength in the years ahead.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Disclosure of Particulars of Legislative Councillors' Assistants
1. DR DAVID LI asked: Mr President, from 1 January 1995, Executive Councillors must disclose their shareholdings in local companies and their activities in local financial markets. However, such disclosure is made to the Governor only on a confidential basis in order that the rights of Executive Councillors to a reasonable degree of privacy for themselves and their families in respect of their personal finances are not significantly eroded. By contrast, Legislative Councillors are now required to disclose, for public inspection, not only the salaries paid to individual staff members but also their identities. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the reason why the erosion of privacy consideration does not apply equally to Legislative Councillors' assistants who are private citizens of the territory, neither appointed nor elected to public office, nor members of the Civil Service; and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1814
(b) how the right to privacy and the personal safety of Legislative Councillors' assistants will be protected in view of the disclosure of their identities and salaries for public inspection?
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I do not consider that the analogy that the Honourable Member has made is a fair one. Members of the Executive Council make very similar public declarations to those made by Members of this Council. They have agreed that, as advisers to the Governor, they should make further disclosures to him personally of their assets and financial activities. That is something that we should applaud. The proposal that Legislative Councillors should now disclose the identities and salaries of the staff they employ with public funds seems to me an entirely different issue.
To address the specific questions that the Honourable Member has asked, the consideration of a possible erosion of privacy in disclosing the names and salaries of Members' assistants must be weighed against the legitimate right of the public to know how Legislative Council Members are using the allowances provided to them out of public funds. An independent commission, which was appointed by the Governor at the request of Members of this Council to review the remuneration package for Legislative Council Members, concluded that in this consideration the public interest should be paramount, and that Legislative Council Members should include the names and salaries of their individual assistants in their reimbursement claims, which should be made available for public inspection.
The Administration agrees entirely with the commission's view that the public has a right to know how Legislative Council Members use their allowances and that the approach taken in this area should be one of accountability, credibility and transparency. There is no reason why a major item of expenditure, in this case staff costs, should be exempted from this public scrutiny.
I frankly cannot see how the personal safety of Legislative Council Members' assistants will be threatened simply because their names and salaries are made available for public inspection. Indeed, some Legislative Council Members have been disclosing the names and salaries of their assistants from the beginning, even when this disclosure was not a requirement. I am not aware that these Members — or their staff — have experienced any such difficulties as a result.
DR DAVID LI: Mr President, in response to Beijing's request for information on civil servants, a government source was quoted as saying, "the Chinese side has to spell out clearly what kind of information it wants and who would have access to the files before the Government would consider providing that information". The spokesman was further quoted as saying that "even if the request is made, the Government would have to consult the official before
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1815
handing over the files". By contrast, the Government has moved more than swiftly to disclose the personal information of Legislative Councillors' assistants for public inspection, without so much as the courtesy of consulting those who are directly involved. Is the Government aware that in so doing a double standard has been applied between the treatment of the civil servants and the private citizens of Hong Kong?
PRESIDENT: It is a very long preamble to your question, Dr LI. Chief Secretary, reply if you can.
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I do not think that the preamble to Dr LI's question is relevant at all to this particular point in question.
The Government has taken the advice of the commission appointed independently to review this matter. The commission's report has been discussed and agreed by the Administration and Members have been fully consulted on the recommendations before the financial package on the remuneration has been approved since October last year. Of course the commission has taken all the views into account, including the views Members made through their Working Group to the commission. The commission had come to the conclusion that, in this particular case, since the allowances payable to Members for staff costs, among other things, are public funds, it is important that the public should be able to see for themselves the names and salaries of the assistants employed by Members using public funds. This is only a matter of credibility, accountability and transparency. I am sure the Government and this Council fully endorse the need for this accountability and transparency. And I do not believe that there is anything to hide from making these known to the public who pays for the funds through tax revenue and other public sources.
DR PHILIP WONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Administration inform this Council whether it will require Members of the Executive Council to disclose information about the salaries of their assistants? If yes, when will such a requirement take effect? If not, why not?
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, Executive Council Members already have a Register of Members' Interests which is made available for public inspection, covering land and properties, companies in which they have a beneficial interest, payment of directorships, employment and financial sponsorship. The same applies to Members of this Council as this Council also has a register for public inspection.
Members of the Executive Council also, of course, may have their own personal assistants but they are not paid from public funds. So the question of public scrutiny does not arise in that particular case.
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Perhaps I should return to the point, Mr President, that Members' assistants are paid from the allowances from public funds. This is why the question of public scrutiny comes in. For other payments which are not paid from public funds, the question does not come in, as it is in the case of Executive Council Members' assistants, if any.
MR MARTIN LEE: Mr President, in relation to those assistants who were already employed by certain Legislative Council Members before the relevant commission had come up with this recommendation for disclosure, does the Government not see that by requiring these Legislative Council Members now to disclose the personal details of these assistants would be totally unfair to both employers and employees, and in certain cases may even amount to a breach of contract?
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, the breach of contract does not arise in this case because the package of recommendations is to take effect from the next financial year. The only bit which is to take effect now concerns the names and salaries of the assistants of Legislative Council Members and this has no financial implications. As regards the revealing of such names and salaries of the staff, I think that some Legislative Council Members have already done that and there are no particular problems arising from those disclosures. I cannot understand or see how the other Members and their assistants will have any particular inconvenience arising from such disclosures. I think in the end the Members themselves must judge whether it is in the public interest to do so and if so, it is upon them to explain to the public, who pay for these allowances, why this has to be hidden from the public as such.
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Thank you, Mr President. I do realize that Executive Councillors and Legislative Councillors serve different roles, but at least in this particular Session, many Legislative Councillors are also appointed by the Governor, just like Executive Councillors. Can the Administration clarify for this Council whether Executive Councillors, in declaring their assets and financial activity, only have to disclose the information to the Governor while Members of this Council have to disclose it to the public? If that is the case, why is there a double standard?
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, as I said earlier on, Executive Council Members, like Legislative Council Members, declare in the Register of Members' Interests land and properties, financial holdings of companies and so on, which is available for public inspection, in the same way as Members of this Council have done. In addition, Members of the Executive Council, because of their position as advisers to the Governor, also declare a further list of disclosures involving their financial interests. These disclosures involve personal shareholdings in Hong Kong companies and any positions that Members occupy
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1817
in their own right in the Hong Kong Futures Exchange. These are matters which, of course, are beyond what Legislative Council Members have to declare and they are matters which Executive Council Members declare to the Governor only, as advisers to the Governor, to ensure that the Governor gets the independent and impartial advice in case of any conflict of interest. They are in addition to the present list of registers which are applicable to both Executive Council Members and Legislative Council Members. So the question of double standard does not come in at all here.
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, I question the Chief Secretary's logic that just because a few Members have chosen to disclose the information necessarily means that what is done is right or should be mandatory for others.
Mr President, it is well known that the Legislative Council Working Group has a different view to the commission on this disclosure problem. Now does the immediate enforcement by the Administration of all the recommendations of the commission not mean that deliberation by the Working Group of the Legislative Council has become a total waste of time and a fait accompli?
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I think Members of this Council have already had discussions on these matters with the commission and with the Administration. The recommendations made by the commission have been accepted by the Administration and the financial package for the first stage of these has been approved by Members of this Council in Finance Committee.
If any particular Member or Members have any particular strong views on any of these procedural requirements, I am sure of course the commission would be happy to look at them again in the light of any practical problems arising from such implementation. But I think that the same will apply to those Members who have already done so without any problem. The question then is, why is it that other Members see difficulties in such a procedural requirement?
At the end of the day, it must be for the Secretary General of this Council, who is the Controlling Officer, to satisfy himself that the funds earmarked for reimbursement are discharged properly and that the Director of Audit must of course also use his power to scrutinize such discharge of responsibilities under the Audit Ordinance.
MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, I want to follow up the questions asked by Mr Martin LEE and Mr Peter WONG. Mr LEE's question was very specific. He asked the Administration to give a reply on the issue of disclosing to the public the name and salary of each assistant. Mr LEE's question is: in certain cases, disclosure may amount to a breach of contract because a Member, as employer, and an assistant, as employee, might have
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agreed to keep the information confidential at the time when the relevant employment contract was first entered into. The Chief Secretary has not answered the question properly. I believe Mr WONG also wants to ask the same question. In the case of a breach of contract under such circumstances, how will the Administration deal with the matter? I hope the Acting Chief Secretary will answer.
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, if there were real difficulties in this particular area of contractual obligations, I am sure the Controlling Officer will be listening very carefully to such problems and consider how best to resolve this matter when it comes to reimbursing the costs of these staff payments.
PRESIDENT: We have a queue of questions. I will take three more in order of priority.
MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, personally, I fully agree that Legislative Council Members have the duty and obligation to disclose the relevant information to all residents in Hong Kong. However, since assistants have nothing to do with public interest, should not they be consulted first before the disclosure? Moreover, will disclosure cause assistants to compare salaries, thereby giving pressure to Members to raise their assistants' salaries, with the result that Hong Kong residents become the ultimate losers? Would the Administration take this factor into consideration?
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, as I said, if there are any real difficulties which Members cannot overcome, I am sure the Secretary General, who is the Controlling Officer, must consider these carefully, and if necessary, will reflect to the Administration or the commission in resolving these difficulties.
MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, staff of statutory organizations fully-owned by the Government, such as the Provisional Airport Authority, the Mass Transit Railway Corporation, and the Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation, do not have to disclose their salaries, although some of them may have salaries exceeding $1 million a year. Assistants to Members are neither civil servants nor public officers, but just because they are paid out of public funds, they are not consulted when their privacy is compromised by the disclosure of their salaries. Is there a question of a double standard? Is this unfair to Members' assistants who are but ordinary citizens themselves.
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CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I do not think the comparisons are valid at all. We are talking here about allowances payable from public funds to Members' assistants. This is why it is necessary to ensure that the public has a right to know and the way Members use their allowances must be transparent and credible.
When you talk about companies or corporations operating on prudent financial principles, the commercial considerations apply in those cases. It is important to bear in mind that in those operations, in indicating the salaries or remuneration of the staff in those corporations, it is important that the market has to be taken into account. Market forces will of course affect the recruitment and retention of staff in those corporations and it is a different set of circumstances applying to those situations. This is why it is important for these corporations, for example, the Monetary Authority, the Airport Authority and so on, not to reveal the remunerations of the holders of those positions as they are, as it were, competing with the market in recruiting and retaining people of good calibre. So it is important to bear in mind the difference between these corporations and Members of this Council employing assistants with public funds. They are very different circumstances. And different criteria are applicable to these cases.
MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Administration inform this Council whether Members of the Executive Council also draw allowances from the Government? Do such allowances come from public funds? If they pay their assistants out of public funds, why do they not have to disclose the particulars of their assistants?
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, Members of the Executive Council do not get any salaries or allowances from the Government. They receive honorarium just as what members of advisory boards and committees do and we do not require such information to be disclosed because they are honorarium. And it is not the practice to disclose these honorarium payable to Members and how they are to be used by Members.
50th Anniversary of the End of the Pacific War
2. MR JIMMY McGREGOR asked: Will the Government inform this Council whether:
(a) it will take steps to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the end of the Pacific War in August 1945 and pay tribute to the sacrifice and courage of the people of the territory during the war years; and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1820
(b) it will organize a suitable programme to give thanks for deliverance and to express renewed hope for a peaceful and successful future?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, it is our intention that this important anniversary should be suitably commemorated. Arrangements for this are now well advanced. Last year, at the Governor's request, the Commander British Forces established a steering committee to draw up proposals. Its members include the President of the Hong Kong Prisoners of War Association and representatives of the British Forces and the Government. The Governor has now approved a full programme of events recommended by the committee, and we have sought provision for this in the 1995-96 estimates.
The programme will begin on 28 August. Veterans from all over the world are expected to attend. There will be a commemoration parade, a wreath laying ceremony, a service and a march past by the veterans, the British Forces and the Hong Kong disciplined services. The Royal Air Force and the Government Flying Service will also stage a fly past. There will also be a lunch for the veterans and guests. Over the remainder of the week, there will be a battlefield tour, visits to significant military sites, such as the cemeteries, Stanley Fort and the former Sham Shui Po prisoner-of-war camp. The programme will end on 2 September with a parade to mark the disbandment of the Royal Hong Kong Regiment (the Volunteers).
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, will the Government consider, inter alia, the following additional measures to mark the 50th anniversary of the end of hostilities in the Pacific War:
first, government encouragement to those organizations in Hong Kong which represent both civilian and military resistance to the Japanese attack and occupation of Hong Kong from December 1941, in the organization of meetings and religious services to commemorate the end of hostilities; such encouragement to include financial support for such meetings and functions; and also that the Government shall be prepared to assist appropriate Hong Kong organizations which propose to bring representatives of other Asian ex-servicemen's associations to Hong Kong for commemorative meetings;
second, that the Government does its best to encourage the Japanese Emperor and the Japanese Government to make a symbolic gesture of regret and penitence for the cruelty and misery inflicted on Hong Kong people from 1941 to 1945;
thirdly, that renewed efforts be made by the Hong Kong Government to secure British Nationality and passports for the 25 or so wives and widows of Hong Kong Volunteers and others who fought so valiantly for Hong Kong during the Japanese attack and afterwards; and
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finally, that a special committee be set up to consider and co-ordinate such commemorative activities which should give Hong Kong people every opportunity to express their gratitude to those who did so much for Hong Kong during those sad and dangerous years?
PRESIDENT: Have you got that list, Secretary? I am sure you will want some of the points repeated.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Thank you, Mr President, I will try to cover the four points asked by the Honourable Member.
As regards the first point, will the Government give encouragement to organizations in Hong Kong to participate in the celebration? The answer is yes. As far as I am aware, the steering committee chaired by the Commander British Forces has encouraged organizations to participate in the arrangements for the organization. If there are organizations which are not presently involved then I would be happy to hear from them and will see that they are referred to that steering committee.
As regards the request to seek an assurance from the Japanese Emperor, the object of the commemoration is for the people of Hong Kong and for those from overseas who fought for its defence and eventual liberation to, as the words of the principal question read, pay tribute to the sacrifice and courage of the people of the territory during the war years and to give thanks for deliverance and to express renewed hope. I do not think therefore that involving the Japanese Emperor falls into that category.
As regards the third part — British nationality for the wives and widows in question, I think, as Members of this Council are aware, we have sought support for the sentiments expressed by that supplementary question from the British Government and that continues to be our objective to seek additional assurances for these ladies. As Members are aware, all of them have been offered British passports. The problem arises in that they have to go to Britain in order to receive them, to fulfil the residency requirements. We have worked with some of the organizations in Hong Kong recently, in order to give these ladies further assurance in the form of a personal letter from the Home Secretary to each of them and a number of them have taken up the offer that he made to have a chop in their passport which will guarantee them entry into the United Kingdom for the purposes of residence and subsequent citizenship. I am happy to say that with the help of some of the organizations here, we have managed to contact all of those who are in Hong Kong and we are now seeking those who are outside Hong Kong.
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As regards the fourth part of the question, Mr President, the answer is again yes. Hong Kong people will be given an opportunity to participate. It is a very difficult matter for us to try and estimate how many will be involved and it is largely a matter of guesswork to figure how many people will be involved. But perhaps if I could link that to the first part of the question, any other organizations that can help us in that regard, we would welcome that advice.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, could I have clarification of the final point please? Does that mean that the Government will entertain requests by suitable organizations for assistance and help if they wish to participate in these commemorative activities to the extent that they might be given financial help as well?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I fear not. The arrangements which we are making for the celebration which will take place in September is for the celebration. No participants are being offered any financial help, even those from overseas. We would be happy, as I have said in reply to the first supplementary, for any Hong Kong people to be involved in the celebrations in any way. That will not, I fear, go as far as providing financial help to them. But perhaps I could explain that it will cover such things as transport, it will cover such things as medical attention during the celebrations and all of the activities, and it will cover any of the celebrations to which they are invited and the refreshments and other activities.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, could I have further clarification as to what the Secretary means by transport? Does he mean transport from another country to Hong Kong or simply vehicles inside Hong Kong?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, it is the latter. It is transport inside Hong Kong. We are not providing transport for anyone to visit Hong Kong or indeed subsidizing transport for anyone to come to Hong Kong. It is transport within Hong Kong.
MR SZETO WAH (in Cantonese): Mr President, this year marks not only the 50th anniversary of the end of the Pacific War but also the 50th anniversary of China's victory in the War of Resistance Against Japan, which is even more significant to the Chinese people. Will the Government inform this Council whether the commemorative activities organized by the Government will also touch on China's victory in the war against Japan?
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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I think that the activities sought by the Honourable Member will be included in the series of events that we are organizing as part of this commemoration. They begin on 28 August and run through to be completed on 3 September. There will be a number of activities taking place during that time. Rather than reading out the list, Mr President, I will be very happy to provide that list to the Member if he wishes.
Public Transport Services
3. DR SAMUEL WONG asked: According to the Annual Traffic Census —1993 Report, the provision of public transport increased by just 25% over a 10-year period from 1983 to 1993. However, it was pointed out in the Report of the Working Party on Measures to Address Traffic Congestion that the number of daily trips had doubled in the last 20 years, whereas the population had only increased by one-third over the same period and the proportion of trips using private transport had increased by nearly 50%. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the reasons why the development of public transport services lags far behind the market demand; and
(b) whether the inadequate provision of public transport services has led to the increasing use of private transport by the public, thus aggravating the problem of traffic congestion?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, may I first point out, with due respect to the Honourable Member, that in his preamble he has not compared like with like. Firstly, Figure 5 in the Annual Traffic Census — 1993 Report depicts a 25% growth in the number of passenger trips made by public transport over the period 1983-93. These figures do not relate to carrying capacities of the different modes of public transport over the same period. Secondly, the number of daily trips referred to in the Report of the Working Party on Measures to Address Traffic Congestion includes journeys by both public and private transport over a 20 year period.
I now turn to the two specific questions asked:
(a) The provision of public transport has not lagged behind demand. On the contrary, new services and major improvements have been introduced in the past 10 years. The Mass Transit Railway (MTR) Island Line came into operation in 1985, the Light Rail Transit system commenced in 1988, and the MTR extended its services from Lam Tin to Quarry Bay via the Eastern Harbour Crossing in 1989. In addition, the number of franchised bus routes rose from 275 to 469 and the number of green minibus routes from 109 to
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1824
231. During this period, 18% of the franchised bus fleet and all public light buses and taxis have been air conditioned.
(b) I do not agree that the tremendous increase in private car ownership experienced in recent years has been caused by inadequacies in our public transport system. The fact is that public transport in Hong Kong remains one of the best and most efficient in the world. As has been the case elsewhere, the growth in car ownership is mainly related to increases in real incomes. Private car usage will always be more comfortable and convenient than public transport, and if people can afford it, they will aspire to own cars.
Mr President, I wish to assure Honourable Members that the Administration is not complacent and, indeed, this is demonstrated by firm plans to further expand and upgrade public transport services. For example, the recently announced Railway Development Strategy provides a blueprint for the expansion of our rail systems. Meanwhile, both rail corporations are investing in new signalling equipment to increase train frequencies as well as in station improvements. The franchised bus companies will spend $500 million on new buses in the next 12 months. And further improvements will be made to ferry services to service the northwest New Territories and the outlying islands.
DR SAMUEL WONG: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Secretary for Transport agree with me that the lack of parking facilities at major transport interchanges or underground stations for private car owners to park and ride on public transport is further aggravating the problem of traffic congestion?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I do agree with the Honourable Member that we need to look afresh at the requirement for park-and-ride facilities, and indeed for some of the new developments in conjunction with the airport railway system. The Mass Transit Railway Corporation has suggested ideas in this respect and we shall continue to explore to see whether further sites can be made available for park-and-ride.
MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, in paragraph 3 of his reply, the Secretary for Transport said that franchised buy companies will spend $500 million on the purchase of new buses in the next 12 months. How many buses can be bought with this sum of money? Is CMB one of the bus companies being referred to? Since the negotiations on CMB's franchise renewal may not be successful, is the Administration implying that some new bus companies might take over its place?
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SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, insofar as expansion of bus services and routes are concerned, we do consult the District Boards and the figure of $500 million is the total which the bus companies plan to spend in the coming year. As for the exact number of buses, I cannot give a figure but I would imagine that this is about 200 buses or so.
As regards the question on the China Motor Bus franchise, with respect, this is outside the context of this question and because negotiations are ongoing, I cannot answer that at this point in time.
MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, in paragraph 2 of his reply, the Secretary for Transport said that the provision of public transport has not lagged behind demand. Will the Secretary for Transport clarify whether the existing provision of public transport is already adequate to meet the demand of the public, especially during rush hours? Besides, with regard to the Report of the Working Party on Measures to Address Traffic congestion, has the Government assessed how many private car owners would switch to commute on the public transport system if its recommendations are implemented? How much additional pressure will thus be exerted on our public transport system? And, what plan do public transport companies have to deal with such circumstances?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I think it is very difficult to be precise as to say what caters for public demand. I think certainly during rush hours, a limited waiting time is to be expected at bus and train stations, at ferry services and so forth. The public transport operators cannot plan to have a fleet simply to cope with peak hour rushes. If we are to do so, the cost of public transport would be phenomenal.
Insofar as meeting demand today is concerned, the fact is that 9 million of our 10 million daily passenger/commuter trips are met by public transport and I think if one adopts this yardstick, it is fair to say that we do cater for public demand. Having said that, I did indicate in my main reply that we are continuing to look at ways and means of improving our very good public transport services.
MRS MIRIAM LAU: The second part of my question please. Whether an assessment has been made?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: I am sorry. Could the Honourable Member please repeat that question?
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MR MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): My question is: with regard to the Report of the Working Party on Measures to Address Traffic Congestion, has the Government assessed the pressure thus created on the public transport system if its recommendations are implemented? How many private car owners would switch to commute on the public transport system? Have public transport companies worked out any plans in relation to the situation? What are their plans?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, we have not made an assessment in respect of such a yardstick. But I think I should point out that in our working party report to tackle traffic congestion, our prime thrust is to contain the current position, insofar as traffic and traffic congestion is concerned. We are not out to reduce the existing fleet of vehicles. Our plans are to try and contain growth in vehicles in the interim years pending the introduction of electronic road pricing.
MR EDWARD HO: Mr President, in his reply, the Secretary has ignored one important fact, that is, most people who use private cars do so because they live in areas poorly served by public transport. Will the Secretary inform this Council what the Government intends to do and indeed what it can do to ensure that regular, frequent and comfortable public transport is provided to these areas to offer a reasonable alternative to private car users?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I do agree with the Honourable Member that, in the more remote parts of the territory, public transport may not be provided as regularly as one would have hoped. In respect of the New Territories, for example, of course we have plans for the airport railway and when this is in place it will provide much relief for the Nathan Road Corridor. Secondly, there is ongoing dialogue with the bus companies to provide feeder services to the more remote parts of the New Territories, and we shall also work with the Hong Kong Ferry Company to expand ferry services to the outlying islands and the northwest New Territories.
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, the Secretary's answer addresses how to meet demand with various modes of transport. Has our transport policy struck at the root of the problem, that is, to locate one's residence close to both work and recreation, thereby avoiding unnecessary journeys?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I believe that as part of the territorial development studies, this particular problem is being reassessed. In planning terms, we do look at transport and housing and we try to provide all the facilities in the same new town.
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DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Government seems to think that the growth in the number of private cars is the main cause of traffic congestion. Can the Government tell how many additional roads have been added to our road networks over the past 10 years? Can the increase in the kilometres of roads catch up with the growth in population and the need for transport?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I find that a very difficult question to answer. I do not think it is possible to really correlate the increase in the kilometres of roads with the growth in cars, but suffice it to say that in fact the growth in vehicle fleet, particularly in the private section, has increased a third over the last three years.
MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr President, in paragraph 2(a) of his reply, the Secretary for Transport said that the provision of public transport has not lagged behind demand. However, long waiting queues are observed at many bus stations during morning rush hours, particularly at some new towns in the New Territories. The development of residential coach services in recent years seems to indicate that bus services cannot meet public demand. Mr President, while there has been an increase in the number of GMB routes over the past 10 years, the growth in the past few years has slowed down quite a lot. Can the Secretary for Transport tell whether there are any plans to increase the number of GMB routes, and whether the Government will consider the idea of permitting GMBs to operate between housing estates in the New Territories and the urban areas as a means of encouraging private car users to use GMB services? I want to ask this question because of the fact that many people still have to stand for more than one hour during the entire journey from the New Territories to the urban areas although they can get on board at a terminus. As a result, many people are unwilling to take buses. But if there are GMBs operating from these housing estates to the urban areas, I believe that some private car users will be attracted to take GMBs. I wonder if the Secretary for Transport will consider the opening of these housing estates to GMB operation?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, the number of residential coach services indeed has increased over the past 10 years. For example, there were 23 routes and there are now 83 and the total fleet deployed is 399 today as compared to 58 some 10 years ago. As for minibuses, our policy is to freeze the number of minibuses on the roads and the figure is now 4 350. Our policy is to switch operations from red minibuses to green minibuses and at the end of 1994, there were 252 green minibus routes. The answer to the Honourable Member's question as to whether we will continue in this direction is yes. But I think we have to bear in mind that we do not impinge upon the franchise rights of the public bus operators.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1828 PRESIDENT: Not answered, Mr WONG?
MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): My main question is: During morning rush hours; many people have to keep standing throughout the whole journey even though they get on board at a bus terminus. This has made many people unwilling to take buses for their journeys to the urban areas. The GMB routes mentioned by the Secretary for Transport just now are only local routes. What I have proposed are outbound routes, which run from public housing estates in new towns to urban Kowloon. This may induce some motorists to take minibuses. I wonder if the Secretary for Transport will take this into consideration?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, the capacity of public buses does include a volume for standing passengers but certainly we will continue to look into the proposal suggested by the Honourable Member. But as I have said, we have to make certain that we do not impinge upon the franchise rights of the public transport operators because if we did so, this would mean increased costs.
Land Disposal Programme
4. MR ALBERT CHAN asked (in Cantonese): There were occasions in the past few years when some of the sites in the land sale programmes had not been sold as planned. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the total number of sites in the 1994-95 Lands Sales Programme not yet sold to date together with the total area of these sites and their respective usage; and what steps will be taken to ensure that these sites will be sold as planned within this financial year; and
(b) whether there are discrepancies between the actual and anticipated selling prices of the sites sold this year; if so, what the reasons are?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,
(a) To date only two sites put up for sale by auction this year failed to sell. The total area of these sites is 1.07 hectares: one was for industrial use and the other for residential.
In respect of the industrial site, the area will be made up by other sites. The residential site will be put up for sale again in March 1995 with an increase in the site area.
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The Government will seek to ensure full utilization of the agreed Land Disposal Programme hectarage as far as possible.
(b) There have been no instances of discrepancy between actual and anticipated selling prices of sites sold so far this year.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, I have learned that the residential site at Shatin was sold this afternoon. Let me first offer my congratulations to the Government. Under the 1994-95 Land Sales Programme, the Sino-British Land Commission agreed on the disposal of 26 hectares of residential land. However, as at yesterday, 16 hectares of land has still not been auctioned. The Government has deferred the auction of a considerable hectarage of residential land until the final quarter of the financial year. If the residential sites cannot be sold before the end of the financial year, some land will be wasted, and this will seriously affect the future supply of residential flats. May I ask whether the Government considers such an administrative arrangement reasonable? What measures and plans does the Government have to ensure the sale of the remaining 16 hectares of land at reasonable prices in the next two months or so? And will the Government consider abandoning the high land price policy?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, to start at the back, the Government does not have a high land price policy and it will therefore not consider abandoning it. I would like to thank the Honourable Member for his congratulations. This afternoon we sold the site at Sha Tin which is a residential site. The opening price was $130 million and the sale price was $171 million; there were five bidders and 42 bids. It remains to be seen what happens to the other two lots.
As regards the main part of the question, I think it is necessary to bear in mind that a proportion of the hectarage which is in the 1994-95 Programme was agreed to be added to the Programme only late in 1994. It is therefore unavoidable that the sale of that hectarage will take place during the next few months. And this of course is one of the problems of the Land Disposal Programme which is not a mechanistic rigid activity but a living breathing process, and I think that needs to be borne in mind.
The other point about it is this: there is no question of the Government ensuring that it sells a given hectarage; it is the market that decides what hectarage it wishes to receive. It is the job of the Government to put onto the market such land as it believes is indicated as being required. But in the final analysis, decisions on purchase are the decisions of purchasers, not the Government. However, I believe that in the next few months we will see a good proportion of the land which we will be putting up bought.
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If, at the end of the day or at the end of this financial year, we have not achieved the full disposal of the hectarage, then there is no question of the land being wasted. The land is still there; the land will be sold. It may be sold next year; some of it may not be sold until the following year. But what will go into the Land Disposal Programme for 1995-96 will depend on the state of the market, will depend on the views that we and the Land Commission take, and will in the final analysis depend on the attitude of purchasers to what we offer.
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to follow up the Honourable ALBERT CHAN's question. Mr Eason seems to have said that any land that remains unsold under this year's Land Disposal Programme would not be wasted. However, supposing that 30 hectares of land has been approved for disposal this year by the Sino British Commission and that 5 hectares of land finally remains unsold, would Mr Eason clarify whether it is true that the remaining 5 hecatres of land would not be included in the 1995-96 Programme of Land Disposal?
My main question is: the implementation of the recommendation of the Report of the Land Production Task Force published in June 1994 has given rise to the increase in land disposal this year. Now that the property market has slacken recently, I would like to ask Mr Eason: Will the Government continue to carry out the Land Disposal Programmes of the next few years on the basis of the recommendation of the Report of June 1994?
PRESIDENT: Two questions there, Secretary.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: At least two, Mr President. I think I have to revert to the point, Mr President, which I made in answering the previous supplementary. We have not yet devised a formula whereby we have been able to compel purchasers to buy everything we put up for sale, and in Hong Kong, it is unlikely that we would ever reach such a glorious state.
It is our intention, and I think this has been indicated by the adjustment that was made to the Land Disposal Programme 1994-95, to implement the recommendations of the task force to achieve the additional supply of flats. We should seek to achieve the recommendation which was agreed in 1994.
And the question as to whether hectarage which cannot be disposed of in the 1994- 95 financial year will be included in the 1995-96 Programme will depend very much on our assessment of the market position in the coming few months and how we view the prospects for land sales during 1995-96. And of course, it will also rest to a considerable degree on discussions and the agreement which it is necessary to achieve in the Land Commission. But we
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1831 will certainly be seeking to continue to implement the recommendations of the task force.
MR HENRY TANG: (in Cantonese): Mr President, how will the Government estimate or assess the impact on this year's Budget caused by reduced land sale proceeds and the sluggish stock and property markets? Will the Government increase profits tax and salaries tax or reduce various kinds of public expenditure as a means of maintaining Treasury revenue?
PRESIDENT: How does that question elucidate anything that has already been said in the main answer, Mr TANG? (Laughter)
MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, actually, the main answer says that there is a very minute shortfall regarding the sale of land and I know that revenue from the sale of land is a major revenue for the Budget, so therefore the revenue would have serious implications for other parts of the Budget.
PRESIDENT: I am ruling that question out of order, Mr TANG. Do you want another one? MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, may I rephrase the question then? PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR HENRY TANG (in Cantonese): Mr President, as far as I am aware, recently many people are not too optimistic about the sale of land because the "reserve price", that is the minimum price, is higher than the market price. May I ask whether the Government will review again the "reserve price" in the light of current market prices?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, we will certainly continue to review the Land Disposal Programme. We have a full programme in the next few months. We have, incidentally, sold a second lot this afternoon, an industrial lot at Ap Lei Chau for $230 million. So we will continue to review the state of the Land Disposal Programme and our success in selling lots that we put up and of course we will be reviewing the revenue implications.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1832 Aircraft Noise Nuisance
5. DR YEUNG SUM asked (in Cantonese): Residents of Kowloon City, Sham Shui Po, Wong Tai Sin, Kwun Tong and Hong Kong East have long endured serious aircraft noise nuisance. However, the Civil Aviation Department has proposed to increase the number of programmed aircraft movements in the early morning hours and extend the programming hours at Kai Tak to 12.30 a.m. In connection with this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the reasons for aggravating the problem of aircraft noise nuisance on the grounds of economic benefits at a time when there is a steady growth in the territory's economy;
(b) whether the Government will proceed with the implementation of the proposal of extending the programming hours at Kai Tak in the face of the objections from many residents living in the affected areas; and
(c) whether the Government has made any assessment of the possible economic loss arising from the decline in the quality of life standard and productivity of residents who suffering from the noise nuisance?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, the Hong Kong International Airport at Kai Tak is now operating at close to capacity. In 1994, the airport handled a total throughput of over 25 million passengers and almost 1.3 million tonnes of air cargo. Air traffic demand continues to increase, yet there are virtually no usable runway slots available to satisfy new demand. In the current winter scheduling season, the Civil Aviation Department has had to turn down some 300 flights per week, at considerable cost to business, the tourism industry and the Hong Kong economy as a whole.
In the light of the increasing pressure on Kai Tak and the cost to the economy of turning away so many flights, we believe it is prudent to consider whether further measures should be taken to increase Kai Tak's operating capacity. Unfortunately, the options available are limited and rely heavily on fitting in more aircraft movements at those times of the day when there is still runway capacity available, namely early in the morning and late in the evening.
We do recognize that any proposals to increase the number of programmed aircraft movements will, if implemented, cause a degree of additional noise nuisance to those living in the vicinity of the airport. The Administration fully accepts that the potential economic benefits of increasing capacity at Kai Tak must be weighed carefully against the environmental implications and the impact on the quality of life of those residents affected by aircraft noise.
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As Members will be aware, the Administration has recently embarked on a comprehensive public consultation exercise to assess the reaction of the community to the various options for increasing Kai Tak capacity. Particular emphasis is being placed on obtaining the views of residents in those districts most directly affected by aircraft noise, as well as the views of the travel and tourism industries and the business sector.
I would like to assure Honourable Members that the Administration is approaching this consultation exercise with an entirely open mind. There is no pre-determined outcome. Our priority, at this stage, is to listen carefully to the views expressed by various sectors of the community, including Members of this Council, before considering whether the options put forward should be implemented.
DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Mr President, I am glad to hear from the Government that there is no pre-determined outcome for this consultation. Can the Government inform this Council what assessment the Environmental Protection Department (EPD) has made in regard to the noise implications of the proposals in question? What is the Government's attitude towards this assessment?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, the EPD has made a very careful and detailed assessment of the noise implications based on information provided by the Civil Aviation Department in terms of the profile of landings and take-offs at various times of the day, and the impact that the noise from those landings and take-offs will have on different parts of the territory. As I am sure the Honourable Member will appreciate, the process by which they calculate the actual number of decibels that will be yielded during landings and take-offs is a very complicated one. I would be happy to ask my colleagues in the EPD to provide further details on how they do this, in writing, if that would be acceptable.
DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Mr President, my question is in fact quite simple. Just now, I asked what the Government's response to the EPD's noise assessment was. In other words, can the Government inform this Council whether the EPD finds the noise from aircraft movements in the small hours acceptable?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, the assessment of the EPD has been set out very clearly in the consultation document that has been issued to District Board members and to others. As we have stressed all along, we are undertaking a full, frank and honest consultation on this subject and the views of the EPD have been set out very clearly, I think, and in words which the layman can understand.
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The position is that people living in the vicinity of the airport are already exposed to varying degrees of noise nuisance. Quite clearly, any additional aircraft movements will serve to increase to a certain extent the degree of nuisance that those people are experiencing. And that has, I think, in numerical terms, been set out clearly in the consultation document.
DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Mr President, I believe you would also feel that the Government has not answered my question directly. My question is: Does the EPD, as a department with the relevant professional expertise, find the Government's proposals acceptable in terms of noise implications? My question is that simple; yet, it seems that the Government has failed to answer whether the noises can be accepted.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: I am sorry, Mr President, I may be misunderstanding the question but it is not wilfully so. In the consultation document, we have attempted to set out clearly the facts both in terms of the economic benefits that are being lost as a result of congestion at Kai Tak and also the impact in terms of noise nuisance that will be caused by additional flights. Those facts have been set out clearly in the document on the basis of which we want to listen to the views of the people who will be affected, so I think now is not the time to make judgments on the various assessments. Those assessments are intended to form a basis for soliciting views on the proposals.
MR MARTIN LEE (in Cantonese): Mr President, as far as the issue under discussion is concerned, can the Government inform this Council how it ranks the relative importance of economic benefits and the quality of life of the people? Which is more important, economic benefits or the quality of life of the people?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, I think that is a judgment that is probably not proper for the Administration to make in isolation. That is why we are seeking the views of the community on what is a very important issue. We have set out for the community in the consultation document the pros and cons of not proceeding with further measures to maximize the capacity of Kai Tak. We have tried to explain those in terms of the economic cost that will be incurred. So it is not a question of making a judgment between making money and the environmental implications of that. At present, what we are doing is seeking views from the community on what is a very difficult judgment to make, just a few years before the problem will be solved completely when we close down Kai Tak and move to the new airport.
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MR MARTIN BARROW: Mr President, it will not surprise the Secretary that I support an increase in aircraft movements and I hope it is appreciated that we will not recover in future years any economic disbenefit over the next three years. Would the Secretary inform this Council whether the Government is emphasizing that any additional noise is for a limited finite period only and that those who may be affected should be encouraged to think of their millions of fellow citizens who will benefit in many ways through maximizing economic growth for the community as a whole?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, as I just said, we have drawn attention during the consultation process to the fact that the additional noise nuisance will be for a finite period. People living in the vicinity of the airport are already experiencing considerable noise nuisance. That is well understood. What is being asked of them is whether they can tolerate a little bit more nuisance for a further short period of years before the opening of the new airport.
MRS ELSIE TU: Mr President, may I ask the Secretary what abatement measures are being taken, if any, to minimize the nuisance, especially for the residents who are living directly in the flight-path of the aircraft?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, we have recently introduced a number of additional mitigating measures to reduce noise nuisance to residents. In particular, with effect from October 1994, airlines are no longer permitted to schedule arrivals after 10.30 pm. Secondly, all aircrafts programmed to operate after 9.00 pm now have to comply with more stringent noise standards laid down by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) in Chapter 3 of Annex 16 of the Chicago Convention which relates to environmental standards.
As a further measure, with effect from 10 November 1994, the adoption of ICAO approved noise abatement take-off procedures has been made mandatory in respect of all aircraft departing the Hong Kong International Airport.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, in her reply, the Secretary for Economic Services repeatedly mentioned economic benefits. As a medical doctor practising in the vicinity of the airport, I can tell you that some residents have actually come to me because of loss of sleep due to aircraft noises. While looking at economic benefits, has the Government ever considered that it should compensate those who need to seek medical help because of sleeplessness caused by noise nuisance? If not, will it consider doing so?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1836
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, I think we are very, very conscious of the nuisance that is caused to residents now, and of the cost in terms of loss of sleep that they face. That is a situation that already exists. The problem we face is that it will not be possible to bring that situation to an end for another few years before the opening of the new airport. So as I say, we are very, very conscious of that problem but in essence, the proposals in the consultation paper are asking residents in those areas whether they can tolerate a little more nuisance for a further limited period of time.
REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Government has proposed to allow more flights because it is afraid that doing otherwise would affect our tourist industry and economy. So the responsibility is placed on the shoulders of the residents living under the flight-path. In fact, the Government, to a certain extent, is also to blame because of its delay in the construction of the new airport. Under the Noise Control Ordinance, noise at night should not exceed 65 decibels, but residents living under the flight-path have to tolerate a noise level as high as 90 to 100 decibels. Since the noise problem is already very serious, and the Government still wants to increase aircraft movements, will further unfairness be done to those living in Kowloon City or under the flight-path? Increasing the number of flights is doubtlessly a pusuit of benefits at the expense of these people.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, I can only repeat that as to the fairness of these proposals, we are seeking the views of the community. We are seeking their views extensively and we will take very careful account of the views that are expressed before any final decisions are taken on these proposals.
Payment-by-cash Trades' Tax Liability
6. MR MICHAEL HO asked (in Cantonese): At present, the transactions in some trades in the sales and services sectors in the territory are carried out mainly on a cash basis. As such transactions are not accounted for by formal receipts and a proper accounting system, the incomes earned in these sectors may not be accurately reflected in their tax returns. As a result, the Government is unable to collect the correct amount of tax payable, thereby affecting public revenue and creating social inequity. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the Government will introduce legislation or other measures requiring trades which carry out transactions on a cash basis to maintain clear records of income and expenditure, and to put into place an accounting system which allows accounts to be traced; and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1837
(b) whether consideration will be given to imposing such requirements on certain types of trades first; if not, why not?
SECRETARY FOR TREASURY: Mr President, the Government is fully committed to fighting tax evasion. Over the past three years, the Inland Revenue Department investigation and field audit staff tackled over 3 500 cases and obtained more than $2.7 billion in back tax and penalties.
In last year's Budget speech, the Financial Secretary highlighted the problem of under-reporting of income by businesses and professions which receive cash payments for their goods and services. Part of the problem stems from inadequate business records. Since the last Budget speech, the Commissioner of Inland Revenue has met and written to professional bodies and trade associations to outline the need to keep proper accounts and issue proper receipts.
Specifically concerning the first point raised by the Honourable Member, our law already requires all trades, including those which carry out transactions on a payment-by cash basis, to maintain records of their income and expenditure. The law also requires the traders to retain such records for a period of not less than seven years. Such records should be sufficient to enable the Commissioner to ascertain them readily for the purpose of assessing tax liabilities. We are currently considering whether and, if so, how we need to strengthen the existing provisions in the light of experience gained from field audit and investigation activities.
On the second point, the requirement to maintain sufficient records applies to every person carrying on a trade, profession or business in Hong Kong. We do not think it would be appropriate or helpful at this stage to single out particular professions or trades for more stringent requirements.
MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr President, in paragraph 3 of the answer it is said that at present our law already requires such records to be maintained and that the records should be adequate to enable the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to assess tax liabilities. However, the plain fact is that tax evasion is extremely serious in the retail trades and other trades that involve payment-by-cash transactions. So, where does the problem lie? Is it because some people do not obey the law, making it impossible to eradicate the problem? Or are there loopholes in the law itself? What does the Government think?
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, the existing system is not perfect, and we find tax evasion in that area. Therefore, we need to review the situation. As I said in my answer, we are currently conducting a review which covers a wide variety of areas including the adequacy of the law, existing manpower and procedures. In other words, the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1838 points raised by the Honourable Member just now are all included in our review.
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Thank you, Mr President. In the last paragraph of the main answer, the Secretary mentioned that the Government does not thinks it would be appropriate or helpful to single out particular professions or trades for more stringent requirements. Could the Administration inform this Council if the Government considers it appropriate and helpful to single out particular professions and trades for more stringent investigations, and if so, which professions and trades, and why?
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: As I said in my answer, Mr President, we do not wish to generalize and I think it would be unfair to condemn any profession generally. It all depends upon the conduct of individual taxpayers. The emphases of our investigation are guided by the experience of the field audit teams, by the cases they have in hand. Sometimes they will concentrate on certain professions and other times on other professions.
PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr LEONG, not answered?
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Secretary therefore confirm that no single trade or profession is singled out for specific investigations?
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: The Commissioner is tackling all professions.
DR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary mentioned in his reply that trades that carry out transactions on a payment-by-cash basis are required to maintain records of their income and expenditure. But how can the Government ascertain these records are accurate and reliable? Would the Secretary please elaborate with examples from different trades?
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Not all trades issue receipts. The law does require them to retain reasonable records of their income and expenditure. However, the law does not stipulate that they must issue receipts. Of course, if receipts are issued, it will be easier to identify tax evaders.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1839
MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, according to the Secretary, there will be a review and the law will also be improved. Will the Administration study the experience of other countries such as our neightbour, Taiwan? Taiwan adopts a very interesting approach to this problem. There, customers can exchange the receipts they are issued for lucky draw coupons. This can encourage people to ask for receipts in the course of transactions, thus reducing the chance of tax evasion. So, will the Secretary consider this method?
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Mr President, I have also heard about this, and we have collected information on this.
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, according to the Government's record or estimate, what is the amount of the Government's annual revenue loss as a result of the retail industry's confusing accounting system and how serious is the problem? Apart from the field auditing system, has the Government considered other means to solve the problem?
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): I have already mentioned the gravity of the issue in my reply. Last year, we investigated a total of 3 500 cases and obtained more than $2.7 billion in back tax and penalties. This is a sizeable sum which indicates that the problem is rather serious. Regarding the steps we are going to take, I want to point out that this is one of the area under review. We will definitely study what measures can be taken to improve the existing procedures and legislation.
PRESIDENT: Not answered, Mr MAN?
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese): What measures have been considered by the Administration? I am not asking about any decision. Will the Secretary share with us the measures under consideration?
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): What we are considering includes our legislation, our manpower resources and our existing operating procedures and other related issues.
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, in the second paragraph of the Secretary's answer, he said the Commissioner of Inland Revenue has met and written to professional bodies and trade associations. Has there been any positive response from those bodies and whether they are going to carry out any enforcement action amongst their members in order to make sure that their members comply with proper accounting procedures?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1840
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: Yes indeed, Mr President, we have received both positive and negative responses from professional bodies. We have taken their comments into account and all these will be reflected in our review and we will be able to, I hope, in the light of this review, introduce further measures.
MR MARVIN CHEUNG: Mr President, could the Secretary please elaborate on the answers given in the third paragraph about the legal requirement for the maintenance of books and records? Precisely what are the specific requirements, where are the requirements contained in the particular ordinances; and what provisions are there to ensure that the records maintained are accurate and complete?
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: The law, Mr President, at present does not specify what the proper records for tax purposes are. Well, common sense dictates that the records should enable all business transactions to be traced, explained and verified through the accounting system. We leave it very much to the judgment of the Commissioner of Inland Revenue. And also, the specific types of records to be kept depend very much on the type of business involved. Generally, they should be expected to include invoices for goods sold and purchased, receipts for money received, invoices and receipts for items of business expenditure, cash books, ledgers and stock records.
MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to ask one more follow-up question on the reply by the Secretary. He said that a rather extensive review of the legislation, manpower and operating procedures is under way. But then, nearly a year has passed since the Financial Secretary last talked about combatting tax evasion. So can the Administration tell us what the progress of the review in the past year has been? And when the review is expected to complete?
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Over the past year, we have in fact actively conducted this review. The Commissioner of Inland Revenue, myself and my colleagues in the Finance Branch have made regular reports to the relevant panels of this Council. In the past year, we have considered what strategies should be adopted and have carried out specific surveys. We have also consulted relevant bodies and organizations on their views and we hope to be able to come up with specific recommendations in the near future.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1841 WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Three-tier System of Authorized Financial Institutions
7. MR ROGER LUK asked: In view of the recent deregulation of Hong Kong dollar time deposit rates by the Hong Kong Association of Banks, will the Administration inform this Council when a review of the existing three-tier system of authorized institutions will be carried out?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, the Administration continues to believe that the three-tier structure of authorized institutions has its value, and does not consider that the partial relaxation of the Interest Rate Rules (IRR) of the Hong Kong Association of Banks, in itself, creates an immediate need to review or change the three-tier structure.
The three-tier structure enables account to be taken of the diverse characteristics of those institutions which are authorized to take deposits from the public, and provides flexibility for entry into the Hong Kong banking sector, particularly for foreign banks. It also enables a wide range of institutions to be authorized while restricting access to retail deposits, thus avoiding the potential destabilizing effects of excessive competition in this area.
The restriction placed on the ability to take retail deposits was seen in the past as a means for reinforcing the IRR. However, it follows from the previous paragraph that this is not the only rationale for the three-tier structure.
This is not to say that a review should not be conducted in due course. However, it would be premature to do so at this stage since the full effects of the deregulation of interest rates on time deposits on the three types of authorized institutions have yet to be seen.
Investigation of Listed Companies
8. MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of the number of listed companies investigated by the Securities and Futures Commission last year under Section 33 of the Securities and Futures Commission Ordinance (Chapter 24), and the number of such companies which have been formally prosecuted or convicted?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1842
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, section 33 of the Securities and Futures Commission Ordinance (SFCO) does not empower the Securities and Futures Commission (SFC) to investigate the conduct of listed companies. The only power available to the SFC to investigate the conduct of listed companies is section 29A of the SFCO. Section 29A provides a limited power of inspection of books and records if grounds set out therein exist. Since the enactment of section 29A in July 1994, the SFC has commenced three investigations. Two of the investigations resulted in High Court proceedings which are pending before the Court. The one remaining investigation is ongoing.
Section 33 of the SFCO, however, does enable the SFC to investigate suspicious dealings by persons in the shares of listed companies. Such investigations may be commenced where contraventions of various ordinances and codes are suspected, for example, the Securities (Insider Dealing) Ordinance, the Securities (Disclosure of Interests) Ordinance, the Code on Takeovers and Mergers and certain of the Stock Exchange's Listing Rules. A total of 31 such investigations were commenced during 1994. Of these, five have been finalized, with two of them resulting in prosecutions and convictions and one resulting in administrative action by the SFC. The remaining investigations are still ongoing.
Imported Workers at Chek Lap Kok
9. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Chinese): It is learnt that imported workers at the Chek Lap Kok Airport construction sites receive harsh treatment at work, such as excessively long working hours and unreasonably low wages etc. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of complaints lodged with the Labour Department by these workers against their employers over the past three years; together with a breakdown of the main categories of complaints and their respective percentages; and
(b) whether the Government will consider adopting measures to safeguard the labour rights of these workers?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1843 SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) Over the past three years, the Labour Department has received a total of eight complaint cases from imported workers working on construction sites of the Airport Core Programme (ACP) projects. Each of these cases comprised a variety of complaint items involving a different number of imported workers. The main categories of complaint and their respective percentages are as follows:
Categories of complaints Percentage of total
Underpayment of overtime wages 21%
Non-granting of statutory holidays and rest days
16%
Underpayment of basic wages 16% Unlawful wage deduction 16% Long working hours 5%
Others (such as deployment to other posts and failure to arrange payment of wages by autopay)
26%
(b) Under the special Importation of Labour Scheme for ACP projects, workers imported are employed under a standard Employment Contract for the duration of the particular works contract provided that it does not exceed two years. This Employment Contract is governed by all labour laws applicable to local workers in Hong Kong. Employers who breach the conditions stipulated under the standard Employment Contract are liable to be prosecuted under the relevant legislation. Furthermore, if they have acted against other conditions under the Scheme, approval may not be granted for replacement workers to be brought in, and their future applications for quotas under the Scheme may be refused. Such control mechanism has been in force since the Scheme began to operate in 1991.
The Labour Department has one special enforcement team tasked with the responsibility of conducting regular inspections at both the accommodation and employment areas of imported workers for ACP projects. If any offences are detected and they are backed up by sufficient evidence, prosecution actions will be taken against the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1844
individuals involved. Two more enforcement teams will be added, one in each of the coming two financial years.
To ensure that imported workers are aware of their rights, the department organizes regular briefing sessions for imported workers to inform them of their rights under the standard Employment Contracts governing their employment in Hong Kong. The department also operates a 24-hour complaint hotline specifically for them.
Use of Unleaded Petrol in Public Buses
10. MR HENRY TANG asked (in Chinese): It is learnt that the Government is considering requiring all diesel engined vehicles with an axle weight of under four tons to switch to using unleaded petrol (ULP) as fuel in 1996 so as to reduce air pollution. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the extent of air pollution in the urban area caused by exhaust gas emitted by diesel-powered public buses;
(b) whether consideration has been given to the introduction of measures requiring public buses to use ULP at a later stage; if so, what such measures are and when they will be implemented; and whether any measures will be adopted to minimize air pollution by public buses during the transition period; if not, why not;
(c) whether the Government will require bus companies to purchase new vehicles using ULP; if not, why not; and
(d) whether any study has been made to ascertain the rate of increase in operating costs of the bus companies after the switch to ULP as well as its effect on bus fares; if so, what the details are?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,
(a) Diesel-powered public buses contribute about 17% of respirable suspended particulates, the major air pollutant in the urban areas, and small diesel vehicles contribute about 60% of this pollutant.
(b) As most public buses are larger than four tonnes in gross vehicle weight, and are powered by diesel engines because there is currently no viable petrol alternative for them, the Government has no plans at present to require such vehicles to use unleaded petrol. However, like all other diesel vehicles, starting from 1 April 1995,
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1845
diesel-powered public buses will be required to use cleaner diesel (with sulphur content below 0.2%) and all newly registered large diesel vehicles, including new public buses, will be required to comply with stringent emission standards similar to those currently adopted in Europe.
(c) The Government has no plans to require bus companies to purchase buses using unleaded petrol because no such buses are available on the market.
(d) For the reasons stated above, it is not possible to provide substantive data for cost comparison.
The feasibility of requiring diesel-engined vehicles under four tonnes to switch to unleaded petrol is still being examined by the Government.
Rehousing Clearees in Estate Block
11. MR FREDERICK FUNG asked (in Chinese): the Housing Authority has recently decided to reserve Block 12 of Kwai Shing East Estate for rehousing squatter clearees who are eligible for rehousing in Temporary Housing Areas. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether:
(a) the eligibility criteria for rehousing in this block are identical to those for allocation of public rental flats;
(b) any squatters who meet the rehousing eligibility criteria, irrespective of whether they are affected by any clearance operation, will be allocated flats in this block; if so, what are the criteria for determining the priority for allocation of flats;
(c) residents rehoused in this block can apply for transfer to larger flats in future on the ground of overcrowding; and
(d) a date has been fixed for clearing Block 12 of Kwai East Estate; if so, when it will be cleared; and in case of clearance, whether residents of this block will enjoy the same rights as those clearees of redevelopment areas, or be classified as a new category of clearees?
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING: Mr President, Block 12 of Kwai Shing East Estate, which will become available in June this year, has been reserved for rehousing squatter clearees in Tsuen Wan and Kwai Chung districts who fail to meet the eligibility criteria for rehousing in public rental housing flats, that is those who are only eligible for rehousing in Temporary Housing Areas (THAs) in the New Territories. This special arrangement has been made in view of the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1846
shortage of THA spaces to meet the demand arising from squatter clearances in these two districts and the Governor's pledge to clear, by 1996, all THAs built before 1984.
The status of squatter clearees to be rehoused in this block is similar to that of THA residents. They will not be given the same treatment as public rental housing tenants in respect of overcrowding relief or upon redevelopment of the block for which no timetable has been fixed.
Overloading of Green Minibuses
12. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it is aware of the overloading problem of green minibuses operating in some round-the-clock service routes or in rural areas; if so, what are the causes of overloading; and
(b) how the authority concerned will monitor and improve the overloading problem described above?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, overloading of green minibuses is not a widespread problem. In 1994, the Transport Department and the Transport Complaints Unit received only 27 such complaints, of which three were related to all-night or rural services.
The Transport Department monitors the operation of green minubuses closely. Complaints about overloading are carefully and thoroughly investigated. Operators are required to conduct their own investigations into these complaints, provide explanations, and rectify the situation where the complaints are substantiated. The Commissioner for Transport has powers to suspend or revoke the licence of the operator if the latter fails to rectify the problem to his satisfaction. In 1994, 10 written and four verbal warnings were given but no licence was suspended or revoked because of overloading offences.
As overloading of green minibuses constitutes a traffic offence, referrals are also made to the police for investigation and enforcement action.
When there is increased passenger demand for a particular route, arrangements will be made by the Commissioner for Transport to increase service capacity.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1847 Burglaries in Schools
13. MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Chinese): In regard to burglaries in schools, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the breakdown by district of the number of such cases in each of the past three years, together with the particulars of the stolen items and the estimated value in each case as well as the number of cases which have been solved;
(b) whether the Education Department (ED) will ask schools to take out insurance on the relatively expensive items such as audio-visual equipment and computers; and whether the ED has provided funds for schools to replace the lost items in case of thefts; if so, the total amount of funds allocated in the past three years; and
(c) whether the ED has adopted any measures to help schools to improve their security systems, such as installing anti-theft devices in classrooms or rooms where the relatively expensive items are stored, so as to reduce the chances of thefts occurring?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the number of burglary cases in schools reported to the Education Department (ED) was 28 for the school year 1992-93, 33 for 1993-94 and 17 for the period from September to November 1994. The items stolen ranged from petty cash, tools and cupboards to audio-visual aids and office equipment such as fax machines and computers. Details are at the Appendix. We do not keep record on the original value of these stolen items and on the number of cases solved by the police, though each case of burglary must be reported to the police before compensation may be claimed from the ED for replacement purpose. For the amount of compensation, please refer to the Appendix.
(a) The Government acts as an insurer of all standard items which include specified audio-visual equipment and computers in all the government and aided schools. Stolen items are therefore replaced as a matter of policy by the ED. For above-standard and non-standard items, schools have been advised to take out insurance by themselves.
(b) The total amount of funds approved for the replacement of stolen standard items since the 1992-93 school year is shown at the Appendix.
(c) The ED has advised all schools to strengthen their security. Schools may also apply to the ED for funds to install anti-theft measures such as window bars and iron gates.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1848 Appendix
Record of Burglary Cases Reported to ED
School year
No. of cases
District
(No. of cases)
Stolen items
Subsidy approved for replacement
1992-93 28 North (3) TV sets ) Tai Po (2) Video cassette )
Yuen Long (1) recorders ) $103,461
Tuen Mun (7) Compact discs ) (excluding the
Tsuen Wan (1) Stop watches ) 17 TV sets
Kwai Chung (1) Tools ) and 19 video
Kwun Tong (2) Safe ) cassette
Wong Tai Sin (1) Cupboards ) recorders
Sham Shui Po (2) Calculator ) replaced by
Kowloon City (4) Computers ) ETV Section
Hong Kong East (1) Fax machine ) directly)
Southern (3) Typewriter )
1993-94 33 North (4) TV sets ) Tai Po (3) Video cassette )
Yuen Long (3) recorders ) $293,679
Tuen Mun (4) Hi Fi system ) (excluding the
Kwai Chung (1) Safe cabinet ) 22 TV sets
Kowloon City (2) CD player ) and nine
Yau Tsim (4) Compact discs ) video cassette
Mongkok (1) Camera ) recorders
Hong Kong East (7) Computer ) replaced by
Southern (2) Fax machine ) ETV Section
Central and Petty cash ) directly)
Western (2)
1994-95 17 Tai Po (1) TV sets ) Tsuen Wan (3) Video cassette )
(up to Kwai Chung (2) recorders ) $199,120 end of Sha Tin (1) Hi Fi system ) (excluding the November Sai Kung (1) CD player ) three TV sets 1994) Island (1) Steel cupboard ) and nine Wong Tai Sin (1) Computer ) cassette video
Kowloon City (2) Fax machine ) recorders
Hong Kong East (1) ) replaced by
Southern (2) ) ETV Section
Central and ) directly)
Western (1) )
Wan Chai (1) )
Health of New-Born Babies
14. DR HUANG CHEN-YA asked (in Chinese): As there are now methods to prevent the transmission of Hepatitis B and AIDS by pregnant women to their babies, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the total number of pregnant women admitted to public hospitals who have been carriers of Hepatitis B or AIDS virus over the past three years; and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1849
(b) what measures are being taken by the Hospital Authority to prevent babies from being infected with Hepatitis B and AIDS virus, thus ensuring the health of babies?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President,
(a) Based on epidemiological studies, the overall prevalence rate of Hepatitis B carriers among the population in Hong Kong is about 10%. Since there have been slightly over 45 000 deliveries annually in public hospitals in recent years, it is estimated that approximately 14 000 pregnant women in public hospitals over the past three years would have been carriers of Hepatitis B.
The prevalence rate of HIV infection among pregnant women in Hong Kong is very low. Epidemiological surveys among newly born infants in Hong Kong have not detected any unknown HIV carriers to date. There is in fact only one documented case of transmission of AIDS by a pregnant woman to her baby.
(b) Pregnant mothers are routinely screened for Hepatitis B during the antenatal period. If discovered to be a carrier, the mother will be given health advice and counselling to minimize the risk of transmission of Hepatitis B to their babies. All babies born in public hospitals to mothers carrying the virus will be vaccinated with the Hepatitis B vaccine and given a dose of Hepatitis B Immunoglobulin at birth. This will be followed by two more doses of Hepatitis B vaccine at one month and three months after birth. In addition, the recommended Hepatitis B Vaccination Programme would ensure that all new-born babies in Hong Kong are given Hepatitis B vaccines as part of the universal immunization programme.
HIV infected patients are given advice and counselling, including the risk of transmission of AIDS to their babies. Should women who are HIV positive become pregnant, specific counselling would also be given. The risk of transmission to the baby would be explained and the pregnant woman would be given the choice as to whether to allow the pregnancy to continue. Appropriate drugs which are known to reduce the rate of vertical transmission from mother to baby may be prescribed for pregnant women who are carriers of HIV, provided that they fully understand the benefits and risks involved and have given their consent. The health of the babies born to these mothers will be ensured by regular check-ups.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1850 Performance Assessment of Lecturers
15. MISS EMILY LAU asked (in Chinese): It is learnt that a performance appraisal system for lecturers on contract terms has been established in tertiary institutions funded by the University Grants Committee (UGC). In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) what methods are used by these institutions to assess the performance of lecturers on pensionable terms; and whether a performance appraisal system identical or similar to that for lecturers on contract terms has been adopted by these institutions; and
(b) whether these institutions will consider demoting lecturers whose performance does not meet the required standard?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) The Administration understands that with the exception of the Lingnan College where no academic staff are employed on pensionable terms, all the UGC-funded institutions have established staff appraisal systems for their academic staff employed on superannuable (pensionable) terms. The methods for assessing the performance of lecturers on superannuable terms vary amongst institutions because of their historical backgrounds and management practices. In short, they in general involve a review of performance in teaching, research and professional and public service.
In the case of the City University of Hong Kong, the Hong Kong Polytechnic University and the Hong Kong Baptist University, the performance appraisal systems for academic staff employed on superannuable terms are identical to those for academic staff employed on fixed-term contracts.
For the Lingnan College, all staff are employed on fixed-term contracts, hence a single appraisal system is adopted. The Chinese University of Hong Kong and the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology do not have an appraisal system for academic staff employed on fixed-term contracts, but they do have an established review system for considering reappointment of contract staff.
The University of Hong Kong does not have a formal procedure for reviewing performance of staff on fixed-term contracts but such procedures are being developed.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1851
(b) The Administration understands that the UGC - funded institutions all adopt similar practices in dealing with academic staff with substandard performance. For those staff on contract terms whose performance is substandard, they will be encouraged and assisted to improve their performance. Failing that, their contracts will not be renewed upon expiry. For those on superannuable terms, the institutions may withhold their annual salary increment or extend the non-substantiated period for the staff concerned. To date no academic staff have been downgraded because of substandard performance.
Importation of Chinese Domestic Helpers
16. MRS PEGGY LAM asked (in Chinese): Recently survey results indicate that there is a shortfall of 30 000 domestic helpers in the territory, particularly Chinese maids. This has led to the abuse by many employers of the importation of semi-skilled labour scheme in order to import Chinese domestic helpers. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of prosecutions regarding the abuse of the importation of semi-skilled labour scheme by importing Chinese maids in the past three years;
(b) what measures does the Government have to curb the problem of abusing the importation of semi-skilled labour scheme; and
(c) whether the Government will consider permitting the importation of Chinese domestic helpers?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, we have no statistics which indicate that there is a shortfall of domestic helpers or that the shortage is of a particular nationality or ethnicity in Hong Kong. The demand for domestic helpers can be met by local supply and the importation of foreign domestic helpers, which is subject to normal immigration control but no quota ceiling.
On the other hand, under the General Importation of Labour Scheme, all the imported workers are to be employed under a standard Employment Contract for a period of not more than two years. Such imported workers are not allowed to change jobs during their stay in Hong Kong. There are no indications that employers under this scheme have abused it to hire domestic helpers from China.
My reply to the three specific parts of the question is as follows:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1852
(a) The Immigration Department has not received any complaints of such abuse. No imported workers have been prosecuted for taking up unauthorized employment as domestic helpers. Neither have any employers been prosecuted for deploying imported workers to jobs other than those stipulated in their employment contracts under the General Importation of Labour Scheme.
(b) To ensure that imported workers are employed in accordance with the terms of employment under their employment contracts, four special teams of labour inspectors of the Labour Department pay regular inspections to places of employment of imported workers. Prosecutions will be taken against employers who have breached the terms of the employment contracts, according to the relevant labour legislation. Other irregularities concerning breach of conditions under the scheme, which are detected during inspections, will also be referred to the Immigration Department for further action.
The Immigration Department conducts regular raids, including joint operations with the police, at such places of employment to see whether there are breaches of conditions under the General Scheme, such as whether the imported workers have taken up jobs different from those specified in their employment contracts. Any imported workers engaged in unauthorized work are liable on conviction to a fine of $5,000 and imprisonment for two years. They will also be liable to removal from Hong Kong. Likewise, any employers who are prosecuted for deploying their imported workers illegally are liable to the same penalty, although the liability to removal from Hong Kong will not apply to them. Moreover, they may have their quotas withdrawn and be debarred from participation in the scheme in future as their adverse record will be taken into account when considering any new applications for importation from them.
(c) Foreign domestic helpers have been allowed to work in Hong Kong for over two decades to meet a specific demand in Hong Kong. We have been making regular improvements to the scheme to cope with the needs of our community, and the arrangements have been working well. Since the importation of domestic helpers from China will pose an immigration problem, we do not consider that it is in our best interest to allow such domestic helpers to enter Hong Kong for employment.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1853 Making Use of CSSA Payments for Drug Abuse
17. DR LAM KUI-CHUN asked (in Chinese): will the Government inform this Council whether:
(a) any estimate has been made of the number of drug abusers among the current recipients of payments under the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance Scheme; and
(b) there are any measures to prevent the use of the maintenance grants under the Scheme for drug abuse?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President,
(a) No estimate has been made of the number of drug abusers receiving financial assistance under the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) Scheme.
(b) Measures are taken to ensure that recipients of CSSA payments understand the purpose of the payments, namely, to assist in meeting basic needs such as food, clothing and accommodation. But no general control is exercised over the way in which CSSA payment is actually spent and there are therefore no specific controls to prevent the use of CSSA grants for drug abuse. It would not be operationally possible to exercise such control, although controls exist to ensure claimants genuinely meet eligibility criteria and comply with all the current safeguards in the system to prevent abuse (for example, able bodied adult recipients are required actively to seek employment).
Rehousing of Urban Squatters
18. MR FRED LI asked (in Chinese): It was mentioned in the 1994 Policy Address that all urban squatters on government land would be rehoused by March 1996. However, there are some squatter areas such as Lei Yue Mun Village and Cha Kwo Ling Village which are situated on both government and private lands. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the Government has any plan to resume such squatter areas for public purposes; if so, whether there is a specific timetable to clear such squatter areas and how the squatters will be rehoused;
(b) whether, in regard to those squatter areas where there is no plan to resume private land for public purposes, the Government will clear the squatter huts on government land only and rehouse those squatters who are affected by the clearance;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1854
(c) if the answer to (b) is in the affirmative, how the Government will deal with the squatters on private land in the same squatter area who will not be cleared and rehoused; and
(d) If the answer to (b) is in the negative, whether the Government has other policies to deal with such squatter areas, and how it will fulfill its pledge to rehouse all urban squatters on government land by 1996?
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING: Mr President,
(a) There are 22 squatter areas in the territory situated on mixed government and private land. The clearance of these areas will not proceed until the private lots have been resumed for public purposes. There is no timetable for such clearance at present.
(b) The Administration will not consider partial clearance of these squatter areas in view of the likely problems of environment, security and disruption which may be caused to the remaining residents.
(c) The Administration is making steady progress in fulfilling the Governor's undertaking to clear all urban squatters on government land by March 1996. Squatter areas situated on mixed government and private land do not fall within the Governor's undertaking, and their clearance will only be carried out when the private lots are resumed for public purposes.
Local Property Prices
19. MR ERIC LI asked (in Chinese): The Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands recently mentioned that local property prices might further fall by 5% to 10%, and he expected that the gap between property prices and the affordability of the public would be narrowed within this year. Will the Government inform this Council of:
(a) the grounds, research or survey data on which the above-mentioned extent of fall in property prices is based;
(b) the objective criteria adopted by the Government to measure the property purchasing power of the public; and what are the actual figures of the public's affordability arrived at by the Government; and
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(c) the relevant legislation or known established policy which requires the Government to provide property price indices to the public and play a direct role in determining the property price level in place of the free market mechanism?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,
(a) The statements referred to in this question were made spontaneously in response to oral questions from the media. They were not therefore intended to be precisely analytical but were based on my interpretation at the time of various information, including past property price movements, supply indications, the activities of sellers and signs of continuing consumer resistance to prices being asked. They were also made against the background of signs that, on the one hand, over-pessimistic statements were being made about the property market, while, on the other, others were seeking to "talk the market up". In other words, the statements were intended to strike a balance among other views being publicly expressed.
(b) Property purchasing power and affordability vary considerably from household to household and are constantly changing. They are a function of many factors, such as the income and circumstances of the individual household, aspirations as to type and price of property, interest rates, banks' lending policies and so on. General trends are, however, discernable.
(c) The Rating and Valuation Department compiles price and rental indices for various classes of property as a general guide to price and rental movements. These are derived by analysing actual sales prices and rents. Property price movements, however, are determined by market forces depending on demand and supply. The Government's wish is to see that the consumer or potential purchaser has as much information on price movements and supply as possible so that, with or without expert advice, he can make a considered choice. Government statistics and statements are clearly only two among many sources of guidance which can be drawn upon.
Support to Industry on Environmental Protection
20. MR MAN SAI-CHEONG asked: The growing global trend of environmental concern is causing a major impact on the local industry, 80% of which are small and medium-sized firms. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1856
(a) what measures the Government has taken to assist and guide the industrial sector to comply with the local environmental legislation including the Air Pollution Control Ordinance, Water Pollution Control Ordinance, and Noise Control Ordinance;
(b) what role the Industry Department plays in helping the local industry to become more environmentally conscious in line with the global trend;
(c) what specific measures the Government has taken to implement the Immediate Action Plan set out in the Support to Industry on Environmental Matters Report; and to what extent these measures have succeeded in helping the local industrialists; and
(d) what plan the Government will make to support the local industry on environmental matters in order to enable the local industry to maintain its competitive position in the region?
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Mr President, the Government aims to help small and medium-sized manufacturing enterprises (SMEs) to cope with the impact of environmental controls in two ways: by increasing awareness of the benefits to manufacturers of good environmental practice in general, and how pollution control legislation may affect them in particular; and by ensuring the provision of adequate technical services. The Industry Department is responsible for co-ordinating these efforts.
As regards increasing awareness, the department produces a free annual guide on legislation and sources of technical help. It also provides information on environmental requirements for product standards in our major markets. In accordance with the Immediate Action Plan, the department has commissioned the Hong Kong Productivity Council (HKPC) to organize seminars for industrialists and the Centre for Environmental Technology to operate a hotline to answer queries from manufacturers, and to produce a directory of pollution control equipment and services. The hotline has been operational since October 1994; the directory will be published in March 1995. The HKPC has also been funded to undertake a programme of advisory visits to SMEs operating in the bleaching and dyeing, electroplating, and printed circuit board (PCB) manufacturing industries. Later this year, the Industry Department will reinforce these efforts with an advertising campaign on television and radio, and in newspapers.
The department is also ensuring that technical services are available to help manufacturers improve their environmental controls. To this end, the Hong Kong Laboratory Accreditation Scheme accredits local laboratories to offer internationally recognized environmental testing services to manufacturers. The HKPC already provides a wide range of environmental services for manufacturers, including expert advice on air, noise and effluent
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pollution control, waste and energy management, and waste treatment. Many manufacturers take advantage of this; in 1993-94, the HKPC undertook 188 environmental assignments.
As part of the Immediate Action Plan, the Government is supporting the expansion of the HKPC's technical services. Manuals to help with the design of less polluting production processes for bleaching and dyeing, electroplating, and PCB manufacture will be published by the HKPC in May. The HKPC will visit 200 SMEs in these sectors during the first year to test effluent and advise them on how to comply with the requisite environmental standards; 25 such projects have already been completed.
On advice from the Industry and Technology Development Council, the department is funding 11 projects intended to help industrialists respond to increasing environmental awareness at home and overseas. These include projects on the treatment of waste, cleaner production techniques and technologies, noise control, and eco-labelling. The council will be asked to advise on additional projects shortly.
Those manufacturers who take advantage of these measures should be able to respond effectively to the growing environmental pressures at home and overseas. In the short term, pollution controls will increase production costs in some industries, although the effect can be minimized by measures to reduce energy consumption and reduce wastage. In the longer term, the demand for products produced by environmentally-friendly processes is likely to increase, and manufacturers will be better equipped to compete with their counterparts in the region.
The department will continue to keep track of proposed environmental legislation in Hong Kong, and of developments in overseas markets, and ensure that manufacturers are consulted and informed through their associations. It will also keep under review the adequacy of technical services and seek improvements where necessary.
MOTIONS
PUBLIC FINANCE ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE moved the following motion: "That —
(a) there shall be established a fund to be called the Civil Service Pension Reserve Fund;
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(b) the Fund shall be administered by the Financial Secretary who may delegate his power of administration to other public officers;
(c) there shall be credited to the Fund -
(i) such money as may be appropriated for the purpose; and
(ii) all sums received by way of interest or dividend on moneys invested under paragraph (f);
(d) the Financial Secretary may expend moneys from the Fund for the purpose of meeting the liabilities for payment of pensions, gratuities or other allowances under the Pensions Ordinance (Cap. 89), the Pension Benefits Ordinance (Cap. 99) or the Pension Benefits (Judicial Officers) Ordinance (Cap. 401) if, at the end of any month in a financial year, he believes that the balance in the General Revenue Account will be in deficit at the end of that financial year, having taken into account all anticipated receipts and payments;
(e) the Director of Accounting Services shall, under the authority of a funds warrant issued by the Financial Secretary, pay from the Fund such sums as may be required to meet expenditures from the Fund;
(f) the Financial Secretary in his discretion may authorize the investment in such manner as he may determine of any moneys held in the Fund at any time."
He said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The resolution seeks to establish a Civil Service Pension Reserve Fund under section 29 of the Public Finance Ordinance.
The Fund would be used exclusively for the payment of civil service pensions in the most unlikely event that the Government were unable to meet its pension commitments from General Revenue. The principle purpose in establishing the Fund would be to address a general concern among civil servants about the security of their pensions. To this extent it would complement the existing statutory provisions in the pensions legislation and reinforce guarantees in the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law.
Under the arrangement proposed, the Financial Secretary would administer the Fund as he does other funds established under the Public Finance Ordinance. The Fund would remain part of the Government's fiscal reserves and would be placed in the Exchange Fund managed by the Hong Kong Monetary Authority. Interest and dividends earned would accrue to the Fund.
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Subject to this Council's approval of this resolution, we shall seek the approval of the Finance Committee to transfer $7 billion from General Revenue to the Fund within the current financial year. This transfer would not lead to any increase in public expenditure insofar as it would be a transfer of funds from one account to another.
It is proposed that the balance of the Fund in any given year would be maintained at a minimum of one year's estimated pension expenditure. It may therefore be necessary to top up the Fund from time to time in the future. We estimate that the expenditure on civil service pensions in 1994-95 will be $5.7 billion, and that annual pension expenditure for the next 10 years will remain at around 5% of the Government's annual operating expenditure. On the basis of these estimates, topping-up of the Fund would not be required for at least the next two years.
The civil service central staff consultative councils support the proposal to establish the Fund as soon as possible, but have asked that the initial transfer to the Fund be in the order of $15 billion, failing which it should be increased to that level by June 1997. We have considered this request carefully but have concluded that we could not justify such a large sum to the Finance Committee under present circumstances. In particular, the existing statutory pension provisions, the guarantees and reassurances in the Basic Law and the Joint Declaration and the sound financial position of the Government, mean that it is most unlikely that the Fund would ever be used. Moreover, $7 billion is already a very considerable amount and should provide a clear demonstration to the Civil Service of the Government's commitment to meet its obligation to pay pensions.
In short, the Administration considers that a Pension Reserve Fund covering a minimum of one year's pension expenditure is appropriate. We have balanced the claims of civil servants against the interests of the community as a whole and been mindful of what the public at large and this Council would accept. We believe that the size and scope of the Fund proposed meets the objective of providing the Civil Service with an important psychological reassurance on the future security of pensions. Whilst we can see no justification for any increase in the proposed scope and size of the Fund, this would not preclude a future administration from so proposing if they felt that circumstances warranted it.
I am most grateful for the views of the Legislative Council Subcommittee established to study this resolution, and for the support for early establishment of the Fund. I have examined further a suggestion made by the subcommittee to include in the resolution a commitment to maintain the balance of the Fund at a minimum of one year's estimated pension expenditure. However, legal advice on this point suggests that it would not be appropriate constitutionally to include such a commitment as it might imply automatic appropriation in the resolution. As agreed with the civil service staff councils during the consultation exercise, I shall be sending the councils a written confirmation on the Administration's
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1860
policy commitment to maintain the Fund at a minimum balance of one year's estimated expenditure. I believe that this will stand as a very clear statement of the Administration's position on this issue, and will serve to provide valuable reassurance to civil servants.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, in the absence of the Honourable Steven POON today, I rise to speak on the resolution under section 29 of the Public Finance Ordinance (Cap. 2) relating to the establishment of the Civil Service Pension Fund, as moved by the Secretary for the Civil Service.
I must also declare my interest as a recipient of a tiny but very welcome government pension.
The motion seeks to establish a fund to which moneys may be appropriated for future payment of civil service pensions when the Financial Secretary believes that there will not be enough funds in the General Revenue Account to meet anticipated payments.
A Legislative Council Subcommittee with seven Members was formed to study the motion. The subcommittee met the Administration once to clarify some issues. I wish to take this opportunity to thank the Administration for its co-operation in this matter.
The subcommittee supports the establishment of the Fund. Some Members, however, pointed out that there is no written provision in the resolution to the effect that there will always remain in the Fund a sum of money not lower than the estimated pension payment of any given year. In response, the Administration has said that it will not be appropriate from the constitutional point of view to include a commitment which may imply an automatic appropriation in the resolution. Nevertheless, in order to give substance to the policy intention, the Administration has agreed that after the resolution is passed, it will confirm in writing the policy commitment to maintain the Fund at a minimum balance of any year's estimated pension expenditure. Accordingly, the Administration will not propose any amendments to the resolution.
The subcommittee also notes that there is a difference in opinion between the Chinese authorities, the Hong Kong Government and civil servants about the amount of money to be put into the Fund initially. The Administration takes the position that the initial reserve at $7 billion is already a considerable sum of money and, in the light of the continuing sound financial position of the Hong Kong Government, the need to use the Fund is remote. There are guarantees and reassurances in the Basic Law and the Joint Declaration in respect of
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1861
payment of pensions after 1997. In spite of this difference in opinion, the Administration states that in fact there is a consensus among the Chinese authorities, the Hong Kong Government and civil servants that the Fund should be established.
The subcommittee has been advised that the initial reserve of the Fund at $7 billion will be handed over to the Special Administrative Region government in 1997 in addition to the reserve amount of $25 billion already stated in the Memorandum of Understanding.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support the motion.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Both the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the Basic Law contain provisions which effectively guarantee pensions of civil servants. Nonetheless, some civil servants are still worried about their pensions. For this reason, during its visit to Beijing in July 1992, the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong made a proposal to the Director of the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office, Mr LU Ping, for the establishment of a Civil Service Pension Reserve Fund (CSPRF). At that time, the Chinese government responded positively and was prepared to bring the matter to the Joint Liaison Group for discussion. However, I recall that the Hong Kong Government held a negative view at that time.
As a result of the struggle for more than a year by a number of civil service groups and due to the efforts made by various sectors, the Governor at last undertook to establish the CSPRF in his policy address last year. Finally, the Administration is willing to make a start. However, there is only $7 billion in the CSPRF. This amount is, in our view, inadequate. This view is shared by the Senior Civil Service Council, the Government Employees Association and other civil service groups.
Given the present circumstances, we think that there should be $15 billion in the CSPRF. There are two reasons for this. First, $15 billion can cover two years' pension expenses, thereby providing a greater assurance to civil servants. Second, this $15 billion will only be shown on the accounts as an appropriation from the Administration but there is a very slight chance that we would have to use this sum of money. Therefore, the establishment of the CSPRF with this amount will in fact have limited implications on the operation of the Treasury or the citizens. Rather, this can give civil servants confidence and is beneficial to a smooth transition. Therefore, we hope Members of the Executive Council and the Administration will reconsider the suggestions or requests made by civil service groups and civil servants and increase the amount in the CSPRF to $15 billion in future.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support the motion.
Question on the motion put and agreed to.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1862 PUBLIC BUS SERVICES ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT moved the following motion:
"That the franchise conferring the right on the New Lantao Bus Company (1973) Limited to operate a public bus service on the routes specified in the Schedule of Routes (New Lantao Bus Company) Order 1993 (L.N. 193 of 1993) and in any subsequent order made by the Governor in Council shall not be subject to sections 26, 27, 28, 29 and 31 in Part V of the Public Bus Services Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the resolution standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Governor in Council has granted a new franchise to the New Lantao Bus Company (1973) Limited (NLB) to operate a public bus service with seven routes on Lantau Island for two years from 1 April 1995 to 31 March 1997.
This franchise will not be subject to a profit control scheme and therefore those sections of the Public Bus Services Ordinance will no longer apply in governing the permitted return under the profit control scheme, but there is a need to retain those sections which enable the Government to specify depreciation rates in respect of franchise-related assets and require the company to produce accounts and other information needed for the monitoring of their performance. The resolution before Honourable Members seeks to give effect to these arrangements.
A special subcommittee of this Council comprising the Honourable LEE Wing-tat, the Honourable Albert CHAN and the Honourable Andrew WONG met on 17 January to examine this resolution. I understand that this subcommittee has given its support.
Mr President, with these remarks, I move the resolution.
Question on the motion proposed.
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, the resolution under Section 5(3) (b) of the Public Bus Services Ordinance seeks to exempt the franchised public bus service operated by the New Lantao Bus Company (1973) Limited (NLB) from certain provisions of the profit control scheme. The Governor in Council has granted a new franchise to the NLB to operate a public bus service with seven routes on Lantao Island for two years from 1 April 1995 to 31 March 1997.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1863
Under the Public Bus Services Ordinance, every franchise is subject to a profit control scheme specified in Part V of the Ordinance unless the legislative Council by resolution under Section 5(3) (b) excludes the application of any all of the provisions of the scheme. The resolution to be moved by the Secretary for Transport seeks to disapply those sections governing the permitted return under the profit control scheme. Those sections which enable the Administration to specify depreciation rates for franchise related assets and to require the company to produce accounts and other information needed for effective monitoring of the company's performance will be retained.
Mr President, a Subcommittee, of which I am the Chairman, was set up to study the resolution. The Subcommittee met on 17 January 1995 and discussed the background of the resolution and the operation of public bus service on Lantao with the Administration. Members noted that at present, by virtue of the terms of their respective franchises, none of the franchised bus operators, except the Kowloon Motor Bus Company (1933) Limited, is subject to the profit control scheme. They also noted that in July 1993, the Legislative Council had approved by resolution to exempt the franchised bus services operated by the China Motor Bus Company Limited and the Citybus Limited from certain provisions of the profit control scheme.
In the light of the background information, Members generally agreed to support the resolution. They also drew the attention of the Administration to their observations on bus services on Lantao with a view to bringing about an improvement in the overall situation. Members' suggestions for improvement included the following: (1) in view of the difference in bus fares, the franchised buses and non-franchised buses should each have a distinctive colour scheme to enable passengers to tell them apart; (2) the order and control at the bus terminus at Mui Wo need to be improved; and (3) the licensing of light buses and coaches on Lantao should be relaxed to help ease the demand on weekends and holidays. The Administration undertook to consider the various points made by Members and let the Subcommittee have a written reply.
Mr President, the Subcommittee supports the resolution and recommends that it be supported. Thank you, Mr President.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I am most grateful to the Honourable LEE Wing-tat and to the Honourable Members of the subcommittee for their comments and suggestions relating to bus services on Lantau Island. The Administration will study these proposals. Thank you, Mr President.
Question on the motion put and agreed to.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1864 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL (ELECTORAL PROVISIONS)
ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS moved the following motion:
"That the 6 representatives of a member of the body specified in item 12(a) of Part II of Schedule 2 to the Legislative Council (Electoral Provisions) Ordinance (Cap. 381) shall be determined, for the purpose of Note (8)(c) to that Schedule, in the manner described in the Schedule.
SCHEDULE
The following shall apply in relation to the determination of 6 representatives for registration as electors in relation to a member (other than an individual member) of The Hong Kong Council of Social Service -
(a) if the number of applications -
(i) from eligible persons (excluding any person to whom a restriction in section 14 of the Legislative Council (Electoral Provisions) Ordinance (Cap. 381) applies);
(ii) for such registration in relation to a particular member; and
(iii) received by the registration officer on or before 1 May,
exceeds the maximum number, the registration officer shall draw lots, as soon as practicable after 1 May, in such manner as he considers appropriate, to determine the applicants (whose number shall be equal to the maximum number) entitled to be registered in relation to that member and register those so determined to be entitled;
(b) as soon as practicable after a draw under paragraph (a), the registration officer shall inform any eligible person who by reason of the draw is not entitled to be registered -
(i) of the result of the draw;
(ii) that he may apply for registration as an elector in relation to another member, if he is eligible to do so and if the maximum number of electors has not been registered in relation thereto;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1865
(iii) that he may apply for registration in another functional constituency, not being a constituency subject to a maximum number, if he is eligible for such registration;
(c) if the number of applications -
(i) from eligible persons (excluding any person to whom a restriction in section 14 of the Legislative Council (Electoral Provisions) Ordinance (Cap. 381) applies);
(ii) for such registration in relation to a particular member; and (iii) received by the registration officer on or before 1 May,
is less than or equal to the maximum number, the registration officer shall determine as regards each applicant concerned whether or not he is entitled to be registered in relation to that member and register those he determines to be so entitled;
(d) if on 1 June, in relation to a particular member -
(i) no applicants have been registered as electors; or
(ii) the number of applicants registered pursuant to paragraph (c) (referred to as "registered applicants" in this paragraph and paragraph (e)) is less than the maximum number,
and the number of applications received by the registration officer for such registration from eligible persons (excluding any person to whom a restriction in section 14 of the Legislative Council (Electoral Provisions) Ordinance (Cap. 381) applies) after 1 May and on or before 1 June (whether such applications are made pursuant to paragraph (b)(ii) or otherwise) -
(A) in the case referred to in subparagraph (i), exceeds the maximum number; and
(B) in the case referred to in subparagraph (ii), exceeds the difference between the maximum number and the number of registered applicants,
the registration officer shall draw lots, as soon as practicable after 1 June, in such manner as he considers appropriate, to determine the applicants (whose number shall be equal to the maximum number or the difference between the maximum number and the number of registered applicants, as the case may be) entitled to be registered in relation to that member and register those so determined to be entitled;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1866 (e) if on 1 June, in relation to a particular member -
(i) no applicants have been registered as electors; or
(ii) the number of registered applicants is less than the maximum number,
and the number of applications received by the registration officer after 1 May and on or before 1 June for such registration from eligible persons (excluding any person to whom a restriction in section 14 of the Legislative Council (Electoral Provisions) Ordinance (Cap. 381) applies) is -
(A) in the case referred to in subparagraph (i), equal to or less than the maximum number; and
(B) in the case referred to in subparagraph (ii), equal to or less than the difference between the maximum number and the number or registered applicants,
the registration officer shall determine as regards each applicant concerned whether or not he is entitled to be registered in relation to that member and register those he determines to be so entitled;
(f) as soon as practicable after a draw under paragraph (d), the registration officer shall inform any eligible person who by reason of the draw is not entitled to be registered, of the result of the draw;
(g) where the registration officer receives an application for registration pursuant to paragraph (b)(ii), if the applicant -
(i) is not registered pursuant to paragraph (d) or (e); and
(ii) has also made an application pursuant to paragraph (b)(iii) for registration in another functional constituency,
the registration officer shall determine whether such person is entitled to be registered in that functional constituency, as if the application had been made under section 9 of the Boundary and Election Commission (Registration of Electors) (Functional Constituencies and Election Committee Constituency) Regulation (L.N. 585 of 1994);
(h) in this Schedule -
(i) "maximum number" means, in relation to a member (other than an individual member) of The Hong Kong Council of Social Service, the number specified in Note (8)(c) to Schedule 2 to the Legislative Council (Electoral Provisions)
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1867
Ordinance (Cap. 381) as being the maximum number of persons that can be registered as electors in relation to such a member;
(ii) the references to "1 May" and "1 June" shall be construed as 1 May and 1 June respectively in the year for which the relevant provisional register is being compiled under the Boundary and Election Commission (Registration of Electors) (Functional Constituencies and Election Committee Constituency) Regulation (L.N. 585 of 1994)."
He said: Mr President, I move the resolution standing in my name in the Order Paper.
This resolution is made under Note (8)(c) to Schedule 2 to the Legislative Council (Electoral Provisions) Ordinance. The Note provides that in the Social Welfare Functional Constituency, no more than six representatives of each of the agency member of the Hong Kong Council of Social Service (HKCSS), determined in a manner to be provided by resolution of this Council, shall be registered as electors in that constituency.
The purpose of this resolution is to set out the arrangements for registering up to six representatives of each of the agency member of the HKCSS. In line with the arrangements for registering individual electors in the other functional constituencies which have corporate members, we propose that, for the sake of consistency, the registration of agency representatives should follow those already provided for in section 10 of the Boundary and Election Commission (Registration of Electors) (Functional Constituencies and Election Committee Constituency) Regulation.
In brief, lots will be drawn if the applications for voter registration under an agency should exceed the quota of six by 1 May. Unsuccessful applicants, if they are also eligible to register in other non-corporate functional constituencies, will then have an opportunity to register by 1 June in another functional constituency if they fail to represent an HKCSS agency after the drawing of lots. These procedures will be clearly explained to the agencies concerned by the Registration Officer.
The Registration and Electoral Office has now started the registration of electors for the functional constituencies. The urgent passage of this resolution is necessary so that the Registration Officer can also register eligible representatives of the agencies of the HKCSS in the Social Welfare Functional Constituency. I hope Members will give their support to this resolution.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1868 BANKRUPTCY ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the following motion:
"That the Bankruptcy (Forms) (Amendment) Rules 1995, made by the Chief Justice on 3 January 1995, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the first motion in my name on the Order Paper.
The Bankruptcy (Forms) (Amendment) Order was made by the Chief Justice on 3 January 1995. It provides for the repeal of the current Statement of Affairs form and its replacement by two new forms.
Form 28 of the Bankruptcy (Forms) Rules must be submitted to the Official Receiver by all persons against whom a Receiving Order is made. In the course of a review of the statutory forms in use in relation to bankruptcies, this form was found to be in need of substantial updating. As some bankruptcies do not involve the collapse of an individual's business, it was considered more appropriate to have two types of form, one for a non trading individual and one for a trader. These forms have been designed to obtain all the necessary information about a debtor's affairs in a clear and straightforward manner. Debtors should find the new alternative forms easier to complete than the single form currently in use.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
COMPANIES ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the following motion:
"That the Companies (Winding-up) (Amendment) Rules 1995, made by the Chief Justice on 3 January 1995, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the second motion in my name on the Order Paper.
The Companies (Winding-Up) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order was made by the Chief Justice on 3 January 1995. It provides for the repeal of the current Statement of Affairs form and its replacement by a new form.
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The Government has conducted a review of statutory forms in use in company liquidations to ensure that they remain relevant and up to date. Form 23 of the forms contained in the appendix to the Companies (Winding-Up) Rules has to be submitted to the Official Receiver by directors and other persons where the court makes an order for the winding up of a company or the appointment of a provisional liquidator. This form was found to be in need of substantial amendment. The form has been redesigned to make it more user-friendly and to obtain all the relevant information about a company's affairs in a clear and straightforward manner.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
BILLS
First Reading of Bills
LEGAL AID (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
MOTOR VEHICLES INSURANCE (THIRD PARTY RISKS) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
EMPLOYEES' COMPENSATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
HOUSING (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
Bills read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).
Second Reading of Bills
LEGAL AID (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
THE CHIEF SECRETARY moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Legal Aid Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move that the Legal Aid (Amendment) Bill 1995 be read the Second time. The Bill puts forward a number of amendments to the Legal Aid Ordinance to implement the recommendations of an inter-departmental working group which conducted a comprehensive review of our legal aid services and a number of additional improvement measures proposed by the Director of Legal Aid in the light of the operating experience of the Legal Aid Department.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1870
The working party's report, published in July last year, contains a total of 25 recommendations. Some of these were related to the establishment of a Legal Aid Services Council, which will be the subject of a separate Bill to be introduced into this Council shortly. Most of the remaining recommendations were intended to introduce improvements to the scope and operation of the legal aid scheme. These require legislative amendments to the Legal Aid Ordinance and some subsidiary legislation. I now outline the major improvements provided for in the present Legal Aid (Amendment) Bill.
Clauses 3 and 5 of the Bill provide for increases in the financial eligibility limits for both the standard legal aid scheme and the self-financing Supplementary Legal Aid Scheme for the so-called sandwich class. The increases take into account the level of inflation since the current limits were set.
The Bill also meets the public demand for greater access to legal aid. Clauses 4 and 13 expand the scope of the standard civil legal aid scheme. As a matter of human rights policy, we propose to give the Director of Legal Aid the discretion to waive the means test in any civil case where an applicant has a meritorious Bill of Rights claim. We also propose that legal aid be extended to persons making applications to the Mental Health Review Tribunal against their detention in a mental hospital or the Correctional Services Department Psychiatric Centre, and to persons who pursue election petitions on Bill of Rights grounds.
Clause 14 of the Bill seeks to include in the scope of the Supplementary Legal Aid Scheme claims involving professional negligence on the part of medical doctors, dentists and lawyers.
Finally, the opportunity is also taken to streamline some operating practices. For example, clause 8 seeks to clarify the application of a first charge by the Director of Legal Aid on any property recovered or preserved for an aided person in proceedings in respect of which the person was legally aided. It also recognizes the present practice whereby the director does not impose a first charge on maintenance payments to children. The existing privileges against disclosing information in connection with a legal aid application are clarified in clause 9 of the Bill.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
MOTOR VEHICLES INSURANCE (THIRD PARTY RISKS) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Motor Vehicles Insurance (Third Party Risks) Ordinance."
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He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Motor Vehicles Insurance (Third Party Risks) (Amendment) Bill 1995.
The main purpose of the Bill is to require motorists to purchase a minimum amount of insurance cover in respect of their liabilities for motor vehicle third party bodily injuries, in place of the requirement for unlimited insurance cover under the existing Motor Vehicles Insurance (Third Party Risks) Ordinance (MVIO). Bearing in mind the need to ensure that the public is adequately protected, we propose that the minimum amount of insurance cover be set at $100 million for any one event.
Direct insurers in Hong Kong have so far been able to provide unlimited insurance cover to motorists to insure against their liabilities for motor vehicle third party bodily injuries by relying on the unlimited reinsurance cover provided by reinsurers. However, following recent shrinkage in reinsurance capacity in the international market, reinsurers in Hong Kong have concluded that it is no longer commercially viable for them to provide unlimited reinsurance cover for this type of policy. Without unlimited reinsurance protection, direct insurers cannot continue providing unlimited insurance coverage to motorists in Hong Kong. Consequently, the requirements of the MVIO, under which a motorist must take out unlimited insurance cover, can no longer be met. It is therefore necessary to amend the Ordinance to specify a minimum obligatory cover that would provide adequate protection for the injured in such circumstances.
The proposed limit of $100 million for any one event is considered appropriate having regard to the capacity of reinsurers to meet claims upon insurers. In proposing this amount, consideration has also been given to the fact that the largest claims for motor vehicle third party bodily injuries insurance have so far not exceeded $15 million per event.
I would like to add that the proposed amendments will not prejudice the right of an injured person to seek compensation over and above the limit of $100 million in the unlikely event that liabilities exceeded that amount. Any excess above the limit will be payable out of the assets of the insured. If any excess liabilities remain unpaid thereafter, the rights of the injured party will be further protected by the compensation funds maintained by the Motor Insurers' Bureau of Hong Kong.
In addition, the Bill proposes to exempt vehicles used exclusively on construction and industrial sites from the requirement for compulsory third party insurance under the MVIO. Such vehicles have always been regarded as plant and equipment. It has been the market practice to insure them by standard all risks insurance policies, not by motor vehicle (third party risks) insurance policies. However, an amendment to the Road Traffic Ordinance in 1988 unintentionally may have had the effect of requiring vehicles on industrial and construction sites to be compulsorily insured against third party risks under the
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MVIO. This in turn may have had the effect of rendering null and void any standard all risks insurance held by contractors for site based vehicles, as such policies exclude liabilities compulsorily insurable under any legislation. In other words, there is a risk that third party claims arising in connection with site based vehicles will not be entertained under the standard all risks insurance policies, resulting in losses to claimants.
We propose to rectify this situation by exempting site based vehicles from the compulsory third party insurance requirements under the MVIO, thereby placing liabilities arising in connection with such vehicles clearly within the ambit of the standard all risks insurance policies taken out by contractors.
Mr President, the Motor Vehicles Insurance (Third Party Risks) (Amendment) Bill 1995 is the result of the concerted efforts of the Financial Services Branch, Transport Branch and Works Branch. I therefore speak also for my colleagues, the Secretary for Transport and the Secretary for Works, in commending the Bill to this Council.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
EMPLOYEES' COMPENSATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Employees' Compensation Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Employees' Compensation (Amendment) Bill 1995.
The Bill seeks to require employers to purchase a minimum amount of insurance cover of $100 million in respect of their liabilities for employees' compensation, in place of the requirement for unlimited insurance cover under the existing Employees' Compensation Ordinance. I have already explained the reasons for such an amendment when moving the Second Reading of the Motor Vehicles Insurance (Third Party Risks) (Amendment) Bill 1995.
The proposed limit of $100 million for any one event is also considered adequate in the case of employee compensation: the largest claims for employees' compensation insurance have so far not exceeded $30 million per event. It is also true that in the unlikely event that liabilities exceeded the limit of $100 million, any excess will be payable out of the assets of the insured in the first instance, then out of the compensation funds maintained by the Employees' Compensation Assistance Fund Board.
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Mr President, the Employees' Compensation (Amendment) Bill 1995 is the result of the concerted efforts of the Financial Services Branch and the Education and Manpower Branch. I therefore speak also for my colleague, the Secretary for Education and Manpower, in commending the Bill to this Council.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
HOUSING (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
THE SECRETARY FOR HOUSING moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Housing Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Housing (Amendment) Bill 1995.
The purpose of this Bill is to update and improve several provisions in the Housing Ordinance. Two significant and two minor amendments are proposed.
First, clause 4 of the Bill empowers the Secretary for Housing to appoint, under new section 7A of the Ordinance, a panel of members to hear appeals under section 20(1) of the Ordinance against termination of leases by the Hong Kong Housing Authority (HA). The Bill also empowers the Secretary for Housing to make rules regulating the procedure for appeals to the panel. At present, the HA is responsible for appointing such a panel and for making such rules. This arrangement is not satisfactory as the HA is a party to these appeals, and hence the amendments are proposed. Furthermore, to ensure independence and impartiality regarding the handling of appeals, the Secretary for Housing will in future only appoint persons who are not members of the HA to the appeal panel.
Second, clause 6 of the Bill seeks to deter the creation of mortgages or charges not authorized by the HA by making them void and rendering offenders liable to prosecution. Paragraph 4 of the Schedule to the Ordinance permits a flat purchaser under the Home Ownership Scheme or the Private Sector Participation Scheme to mortgage or charge the land only on such terms as are authorized by the Director of Housing. It has come to our notice that some mortgages for these flats have been created without the Director of Housing's authorization. Legal advice is that it would not be appropriate to take prosecution action on the basis of this Schedule. We therefore propose the addition of a new section to clarify the legal position and to make people who borrow on the basis of unauthorized mortgages or charges liable to prosecution.
Third, clause 3 of the Bill expressly empowers the HA to employ its own staff, consultants and advisers. Section 4(2)(k) of the Ordinance provides the HA with the general power to do all such acts as are reasonably necessary for the performance of its duties. Legal advice is that although existing contracts of
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employment can be justified under this section, the HA should be given specific power to employ its own staff and advisory services. This will put the validity of any future contract of employment beyond doubt.
The fourth amendment, under clause 5, enables the Director of Housing to delegate any of his functions to officers of a specified class or description. This removes the need for him to appoint long lists of public officers frequently under section 10 of the Ordinance.
Thank you, Mr President.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
PUBLIC HEALTH AND MUNICIPAL SERVICES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1994
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 2 November 1994 Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to. Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
TIMBER STORES BILL
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 12 October 1994 Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to. Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
Committee Stage of Bills
Council went into Committee.
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PUBLIC HEALTH AND MUNICIPAL SERVICES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1994
Clause 1
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr Chairman, I move that clause 1 be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.
This is a minor technical amendment which does not affect the substance of the Bill. Proposed amendment
Clause 1
That clause 1 be amended, by deleting "(No. 3) Ordinance 1994" and substituting "Ordinance 1995".
Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.
Question on clause 1, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.
Clause 2 was agreed to.
TIMBER STORES BILL
Clauses 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14 and 16 to 23 were agreed to.
Clauses 4, 7, 11 and 15
CHAIRMAN: Secretary for Security.
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr Chairman, perhaps you would permit me to stand in for the Secretary for Security. I believe the amendments that he sought to move in Committee have been circulated to Members. I move that those amendments be made.
CHAIRMAN: I think there is a problem under Standing Orders because, subject to my looking at Standing Orders, my own sense of it is that the public officer in charge must move the amendments.
The Secretary for Security arrived at around 4.35 pm.
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CHAIRMAN: Secretary for Security, we are in Committee stage of the Timber Stores Bill, and clauses 4, 7, 11, and 15 have been called. I understand that you would be moving amendments to these clauses.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr Chairman, I move that the clauses specified be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members. These amendments are of a minor technical nature. They will ensure that the Chinese text is consistent with the Chinese text of other Ordinances.
Proposed amendments
Clause 4
That clause 4(2) be amended, by deleting "訂定" and substituting "施加".
Clause 7
That clause 7(4) be amended, by deleting "訂定" where it twice appears and substituting " 施加".
Clause 11
That clause 11(2) be amended, by deleting "有㆟起誓" and substituting "往宣誓而作的".
Clause 15
That clause 15(2) be amended, by deleting "訂定" and substituting "施加". Question on the amendments proposed, put and agreed to.
Question on clauses 4, 7, 11 and 15, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to. Council then resumed.
Third Reading of Bills
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL reported that the
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PUBLIC HEALTH AND MUNICIPAL SERVICES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1994 and
TIMBER STORES BILL
had passed through Committee with amendments. He moved the Third Reading of the Bills. Question on the Third Reading of the Bills proposed, put and agreed to. Bills read the Third time and passed.
PRIVATE MEMBER'S MOTIONS
PRESIDENT: I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to the time limits on speeches for the motion debates and Members were informed by circular on 23 January. The movers of the motions will have 15 minutes for their speeches including their replies and another five minutes to reply to proposed amendments. Other Members, including movers of amendments, will have seven minutes for their speeches. Under Standing Order 27A, I am required to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue his speech.
HEALTH CARE PLAN FOR THE ELDERLY
MR FRED LI moved the following motion:
"That this Council urges the Government to set up a community-based comprehensive health care plan for persons aged 60 or above, so as to provide adequate health care for the elderly."
MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name in the Order Paper, that is "That this Council urges the Government to set up a community-based comprehensive health care plan for persons aged 60 or above, so as to provide adequate health care for the elderly." The original motion contained the word "medical", but with the President's permission, the word "medical" has been deleted, which in turn allay the anxieties of the medical sector, particularly the medical practitioners. Perhaps I shall come back to this point when the motion is put into debate.
With the continuous aging of the population in Hong Kong, health problems of the elderly have become a focal issue which we can no longer afford to neglect. In fact, the annual expenditure on medical services for the elderly is enormous, and given the aging of our population, such expenditure is bound to increase as time goes by. In the year 1993/94, the expenditure on
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hospital services for the elderly reached $1.45 billion, and the same kind of expenditure for the year 1994/95 is estimated to be $1.71 billion approximately. This shows the enormity of the expenditure involved, and reflects both the necessity and significance of elderly health care services.
Heart disease, hypertension and diabetes are the most common illnesses among elderly people. Should they have access to timely medical check-ups and proper treatment at an early stage, the threat posed by such diseases will be reduced accordingly. From the viewpoint of cost-effectiveness, improved health of the elderly will mean a lighter financial burden for the Government.
There is no question that the Government has made some efforts in this area. In his 1992 Policy Address, the Governor promised to set up seven health care centres to provide senior citizens with annual medical check-ups, health care education and counselling services. The first of these centres, located at Nam Shan Estate, Tai Hang Tung, was commissioned in May 1994, and I have visited it myself. The second one will come into operation early this year, while the third one is still under planning. There is no planning, however, for the rest of them.
Basically, the setting up of elderly health care centres to provide integrated health care services should be supported. However, it must be pointed out that even when all the 7 health care centres have come into full operation, the services provided will still be insufficient. In view of this, I have put forth this motion debate, in the hope that health care services for the elderly can be expanded to cover all elderly people aged 60 or above, so that their health can be better taken care of.
I understand that alongside the elderly health care centres set up by the Government, some small scale elderly health care programmes are being operated by non-government organizations funded by the Community Chest. The United Christian Medical Service Board, for example, is running the Kwun Tong Community Health Development Programme, which provides services to the senior citizens living in the district.
In addition, there are at present 3 Psychogeriatric Teams under the Hospital Authority, which will create 4 Community Geriatric Teams and one more Psychogeriatric Team in the year 1994/95. In the Report of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly published last October, it was proposed that four Community Geriatric Team and four Psychogeriatric Teams should be created. Such outreaching services for the elderly include weekly visits to various homes for the elderly, where the inmates are provided with services such as diagnosis, follow-up consultation, referral and health care education.
Conceptually, the health care services for the elderly mentioned above are quite good. It is a pity, however, that we lack a systematic and community-based health care plan capable of effecting overall planning and co-ordination. As a result, these services have become fragmentary and loose.
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Community-based services are in fact no new idea. The Report of the Working Party on Primary Health Care published as early as December 1990 already laid down the concept of community-based health care services for the elderly. In a moment, the Honourable WONG Wai-yin of the Democratic Party will give a more detailed account of the concept of community-based services and their financial implications.
Now, let me turn to the details of our six recommendations:
(1) A full-scale health care plan for the elderly aimed at providing at least one annual medical check-up for every Hong Kong resident aged 60 or above.
At present, the target users of the elderly health care centres at Nam Shan Estate are senior citizens aged 65 or above. And, according to the Report of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly, the age requirement in the planning ratio for elderly services will be revised from the present 60 to 65.
However, it must be pointed out that the earlier preventive health care services are available, the better. If senior citizens cannot enjoy health care services until the age of 65, such services will be of little help to them. Life in a modern city is tense, and there are signs that more and more young people are suffering from chronic diseases, such as heart disease hypertension, and diabetes. Given this, there is no justification for fixing 65 as the age for entitlement to elderly health care services. Therefore, we suggest that the qualifying age should be set at 60 or even earlier.
(2) Extension of health care centres for the elderly to all the 18 administrative districts, with at least one in each.
The number of people aged 65 or above is already over half a million on its own. If people aged between 60 and 64 are also counted, the size of our elderly population will exceed 750 000. Assuming that each health care centre has an annual serving capacity of 3 000 people, then even when all the seven health care centres are in full operation, only a mere total of about 21 000 elderly people can receive health care services every year, which is far behind the actual demand. With the aging of the population in Hong Kong, the demand for these services is bound to increase. For this reason, it is absolutely necessary for the Government to expand the services of elderly health care centres as soon as possible.
In the meantime, the Government should make good use of existing resources. Funds should be allocated through Department of Health
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to non-government organizations such as the United Christian Medical Service Board so as to encourage them to set up elderly health care centres.
(3) Encouraging all private medical practitioners in Hong Kong to participate in the plan, with each district elderly health care centre responsible for co ordination, so as to set up community-based elderly health care services.
As I have just mentioned, there are more than 750 000 people aged 60 or above in Hong Kong. Given this, even if we set up one elderly health care centre in each district, their demand cannot be satisfied completely because only around 7% of them could have access to the services. Therefore, we suggest that the Government should discuss the plan with private medical practitioners and encourage them to participate. This can reduce the Government's pressure on the one hand and greatly expedite the expansion of the services on the other. At present, over 7 000 private medical practitioners are practising all over Hong Kong. Their participation will constitute an immense pool of resources for the future expansion of health care services for the elderly.
Our tentative proposal is that each district elderly health care centre should be charged with the responsibility of co-ordinating the work of the participating private medical practitioners within its own district. It should also make arrangements for elderly people to attend yearly physical check ups in the private clinics near their own homes. Should any problems be detected, the patient should be referred to the clinics administered by the Department of Health or the Hospital Authority. In this way, community based services can be set up.
(4) Strengthening the links among district elderly health care centres, Government out-patient clinics, hospitals and private medical practitioners, with a view to establishing a comprehensive medical network in the provision of integrated services.
District elderly health care centres should maintain close contacts with Government out-patient clinics, hospitals and private medical practitioners and they should also conduct assessment studies on the general health conditions of the senior citizens living in their own districts. In this way, the demand for and supply of elderly medical services can be worked out, and co-ordinated efforts can be made in response, thus facilitating the setting up a comprehensive network of medical services.
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On the other hand, the Hospital Authority should continue it efforts in expanding outreaching medical services for the elderly. Apart from the inmates of homes for the elderly or convalescent homes, outreaching medical services should be extended to privately-run elderly homes and elderly people on Comprehensive Social Security Assistance who are living alone. Outreaching services for the elderly and the work of elderly health care centres must be co-ordinated so that they can complement one another.
(5) Strengthening the links between the Department of Health and the Social Welfare Department to give greater assistance to elderly people on Comprehensive Social Security Assistance who are living alone.
Let us take the elderly health care centre at Nam Shan Estate as an example. The centre has a membership of about 1 000, of whom only 10% are in receipt of Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA). This percentage is on the low side, and I think publicity work is obviously far from adequate. Very often elderly people on CSSA who are living alone seldom participate in community activities or join any health care centres. Many of them are even illiterate, and thus have very limited access to information about the outside world. But, at the same time, it is the health of this the group of people that causes us most concern. Therefore, elderly health care centres should step up their publicity work in this particular area. Their ties with the Social Welfare Department should be strengthened so that, through outreaching services, their meaningful services can be publicized among those elderly people on CSSA who are living alone.
(6) Creation of Social Workers posts at elderly health care centres
We have visited the elderly health care centre at Nam Shan Estate, and found that at present only one doctor and two nurses work there, but no social workers are stationed. This shows a lack of thoroughness in the implementation elderly health care services. Medical staff very often can only understand the psychical conditions of their patients, but when it comes to the mental health of the elderly, social workers will be better suited to the job. Therefore, social workers should be stationed at elderly health care centres to strengthen mental health counselling services for the elderly. Such social workers can at the same time devote time to strengthen ties with other organizations in the community, so that more senior citizens, particularly those who rarely participate in community activities, can be encouraged to use the services provided by the elderly health care centres.
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Apart from the 6 specific recommendations mentioned above, I want to put forward one more suggestion. I have recently approached several hundred of senior citizens in the Kwun Tong District to seek their opinions about this motion debate. They have expressed considerable concern about their dental health because of its direct effect on their eating and digestion. However, the Government now provides dental care service to school children only. Adults are not provided with any dental care service, let alone dental treatment. Therefore, the Government should consider ways and means of including dental care for the elderly in the existing dental services.
Furthermore, since some elderly people aged 60 or above may still have to work, if the health care centres are open from nine to five only, working elderly people will be greatly inconvenienced. Therefore, the Government should consider the possibility of extending the opening hours of the health care centres to somewhere between 7 p.m and 8 p.m so that those senior citizens who still have to work can also enjoy the health care services provided.
Mr President, if the plan we advocate is implemented, all senior citizens in Hong Kong will benefit because they will then have a better understanding of their own health and can thus take preventive measures against diseases. In case health problems are detected, early treatment can be sought, thus reducing unnecessary suffering and even the incidence of death. Moreover, the plan can ease the demand-and-supply tension now confronting our medical services. As a result, the Government can be more flexible in appropriating resources to raise the quantity as well as the quality of other social services.
Finally, as the Lunar New Year is approaching, I wish to take this opportunity to express my new year wishes in advance to all senior citizens in Hong Kong. May I wish them good health and a happy life, so that they could spend their twilight years very happily in sound health.
Mr President, with these remarks, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed.
PRESIDENT: Mr TAM Yiu-chung has given notice to move an amendment to the motion. His amendment has been printed in the Order Paper and circulated to Members. I propose to call on him to speak and to move his amendment now so that Members may debate the motion and the amendment together.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 25 January 1995 1883 MR TAM YIU-CHUNG moved the following amendment to Mr Fred LI's motion:
"To delete "set up" and substitute by "ensure the provision of adequate resources for the introduction of"; to add after "health care plan" the words "as well as other social and counselling services"; to delete ", so as to provide adequate health care for" and substitute by "so that the health of"; and to add after "the elderly" the following ", particularly those with difficulties in mobility, is well taken care of"."
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move to amend the Honourable Fred LI's motion. The amendment is set out in the Order Paper.
I move the amendment for two reasons. The first reason is to urge the Government to provide adequate resources and the second reason is to urge them to strengthen other social and counselling services. As regards the first reason, the Government has to ensure the provision of adequate resources before a community-wide health care plan for the elderly can be successfully implemented. The health centres for the elderly as suggested by Mr Fred LI are in fact already in existence, but they are not in sufficient quantity to cater for all the elderly people. There are already many health care and medical services for the elderly, but the quality of such services has deteriorated because of inadequate funding. To cite an example, owing to the lack of mini-bus services to take the elderly people to and from the day care centres, many elderly people who live in the remote areas and have difficulties in moving around cannot participate in the recreational and health care activities organized especially for them. Besides, many outreaching service teams which work for the elderly have failed to reach or take care of the so-called "concealed" single elderly people because of inadequate subsidies from the Government. Therefore, I think the crux of the problem is the shortage of resources of expanding the services and that is why my amendment stresses primarily that the Government should ensure the provision of adequate resources.
Insofar as the second point is concerned, I think the services to be provided by the health centres for the elderly as proposed by Mr Fred LI are not extensive enough. So I emphasize the strengthening of social and counselling services in my amendment. According to the Report of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly published towards the end of last year, the rate of suicide of the elderly people is comparatively higher than other age groups in Hong Kong. The main reason is that old people are being forsaken following the dissolution of big family structure and the emigration trend in recent years. This, coupled with the fact that old people will easily become ill, has led to their emotional disturbance. When they are lack of proper care both physically and psychologically, they will easily have a suicidal rumination. In my opinion, a comprehensive health care service plan for the elderly should include the provision of psychological counselling and psychotherapy, apart from just taking care of their physical health. It is hoped that the health centres for the elderly as strongly urged by Mr Fred LI will, as proposed in the Report
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of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly, provide adequate and comprehensive services including psychological counselling and psychotherapy for the elderly.
Lastly, I have to make one more point. Mr Fred LI has proposed to set up a health centre for the elderly in each administrative district, which is to be co-ordinated by private medical practitioners. However, he did not specify who should pay for the expenses. Should it be the Government or the private sector? I am therefore worried that the motion of Mr LI will finally become merely an idle talk. Also, he has used the term "health care" in his motion which is such a vague idea that I am afraid it may like the school medical scheme which is being abused. We therefore need to discuss the source of funding.
Mr President, these are my remarks. I beg to move the amendment and hope my honourable colleagues will support it.
Question on Mr TAM Yiu-chung's amendment proposed.
MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, there is a trend of continuous growth in the average life expectancy of the elderly in Hong Kong. This is a good phenomenon which reflects our economic prosperity and advanced medical technology. However, if there are insufficient primary health care services with no retirement protection, the longer the life expectancy of old people, the more physical suffering they would have to endure, and an even heavier burden will be placed on the already immensely funded medical expenses.
In view of this, the Governor promised in his 1992 policy address that seven health centres for the elderly will be established by 1997. This was welcomed by the general public who believed that the Government had begun to stress on the importance and contribution of primary health care services; However, after a lapse of two years or more, only one centre is providing services; the second one is yet to be established and the third one is still under preparation. We are worried how the objective could be achieved by 1997. In fact, with only seven health centres for the elderly in the entire territory, it is definitely impossible to meet the tremendous demand of more than 700 000 old people aged 60 or above. Therefore, it is necessary to strengthen the existing related services to facilitate co ordination and for different services to complement one another. In addition, development can be expedited by making the best use of the participation of non-governmental organizations.
As regards the existing nursing services provided to the elderly, I have the following four views and suggestions:
Firstly, the biggest difference between health care and medical care lies in the fact that the former puts particular emphasis on preventive work, which is to slow down the pace at which bodily functions decline. Therefore, health care
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services for the elderly should commence at the age of 60 instead of 65 which is currently set as the age for receiving elderly services.
Secondly, the existing health care services for the elderly are jointly provided by a number of departments or organizations, including the Hospital Authority, the Department of Health, the Social Welfare Department and some voluntary organizations, and inevitably there exists little co-ordination and co-operation among them. Therefore, I would like to reiterate the consistent position of the Hong Kong Council of Social Services, that is, a central committee on services for the elderly should be set up with a view to improving the efficiency of the resources. As regards co-ordination at the district level, although a co ordination mechanism has already been in place, it has to be re-organized and strengthened if we were to improve the mutual support and co-operation among different departments and organizations.
Thirdly, the medical outreaching teams under the Hospital Authority have been putting too much emphasis on care and attention homes to which medical practitioners and allied medical professionals have been paying regular visits. This may result in unnecessary duplication and even wastage of resources. On the contrary, to those who live in homes for the aged or in hostels for the elderly where medical care is rather deficient, and also to those old people living alone or with their families in communities, the Government is paying relatively less attention. Therefore, in the spirit of mutual help in the community, and in the hope of providing necessary support to the care-givers of the elderly both in the families and in the hostels, the Administration should extend the services provided by the medical outreaching teams to those old people who have not yet benefited and to those care-givers who have not been given adequate support yet.
Lastly, although the Hospital Authority has in recent years succeeded in reducing the number of camp beds in hospitals, the measures adopted by the Administration have not been recognized by the public. For example, for the purpose of enhancing the mobility of patients, some hospitals order patients to be discharged before they are ready, and as a result, their families or the hostels where they live are unable to provide them with sufficient and appropriate care after their discharge from hospitals. Therefore, the Administration should employ more medical social workers and reinforce their resources, in addition to drawing up a plan for the discharge of patients, so as to ensure that continuous medical services and medical care can be provided to the elderly after they have been discharged from hospital and returned to their respective communities.
Mr President, in the light of the contribution of health centres for the elderly in cutting down the overall medical expenses and the need to cope with the tremendous demand, I think the request of the original motion is not excessively demanding. The Government should, at least, have such a long-term objective. During this rather lengthy transition period, the Government should encourage the private practitioners and social service agencies operating in the
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districts to participate to a certain extent in community-based health care plans for the elderly, so that the elderly, whether they are well-off or worse-off, may enjoy better health and spend their twilight years in comfort. The old people may even take part in voluntary work again, and make contributions to the community whilst enjoying their enriched twilight years.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support the motion.
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr President, may I first start by thanking my honourable colleague, Mr Fred LI, for changing the words of his motion on health care for the elderly at the eleventh hour, and of course thanking you, Mr President, for allowing such a change at such a short notice. As a result of such change, the spirit of my initial amendment has been properly reflected. I therefore seek your permission, Mr President, to withdraw the amendment under my name.
Although the controversy is now water under the bridge, I thought it my obligation to explain to Members of this Council the reasons behind my initial move to amend Mr Fred LI's original motion. Honourable Members can rest assured that it is neither a political move nor some sort of in-fighting among political parties of this Council.
The original words of Mr Fred LI's motion call upon the Government to provide a "comprehensive medical and health care plan" for the elderly over 60 years of age. His current motion calls only for the provision of a "comprehensive health care plan".
Honourable Members may remember that when Mr Fred LI spoke on his motion and called for a health care plan, he had made allowance for the involvement of private medical practitioners, and so it should be. Members of my profession, Mr President, in private practice are more than willing to offer their services by providing physical check-up and health education to our senior citizens. All these could be done on a regular basis with the fixed cost met by the Government. Indeed many of my colleagues are already voluntarily providing medical care at a reduced charge for senior citizens.
On the other hand, if the call is for a comprehensive medical plan also, we are engaging in an entirely different "ball game". In essence, private medical practitioners will then be requested to provide a system whereby for a specific sum of money senior citizens could seek unlimited medical treatment on a yearly basis. Such a possible proposed scheme brings back the foul memory of the soon-to-be-scrapped School Medical Scheme which has opened so many doors for abuses and up to now has landed two doctors in jail and a third saved only by the skin of his teeth when prosecution has to drop charges following the death of a key witness.
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