HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 623 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 3 November 1993
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
PRESENT
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE JOHN JOSEPH SWAINE, C.B.E., LL.D., Q.C., J.P.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE SIR DAVID ROBERT FORD, K.B.E., L.V.O., J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, C.B.E., J.P.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D., J.P. THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
624 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI
THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA
THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, O.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN
DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 625 THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO
THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALFRED TSO SHIU-WAI
ABSENT
THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
IN ATTENDANCE
MR MICHAEL LEUNG MAN-KIN, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER
MR ALISTAIR PETER ASPREY, O.B.E., A.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
626 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
MRS ELIZABETH WONG CHIEN CHI-LIEN, I.S.O., J.P. SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE
MR CHAU TAK-HAY, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY
MR JAMES SO YIU-CHO, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE
MR ANTHONY GORDON EASON, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
MR GORDON SIU KWING-CHUE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES
MR MICHAEL DAVID CARTLAND, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES
THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
MR CLETUS LAU KWOK-HONG
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 627 Papers
The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject
Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No. Post Office (Amendment) Regulation 1993 ---------------------------------------------- 418/93
Port Control (Cargo Working Areas) (Amendment)
(No. 2) Regulation 1993 ------------------------------------------------------------ 419/93 Commodities Trading (Accounts and Audit) Rules ------------------------------------- 420/93
Civil Aviation (Aircraft Noise) (Limitation on
Landing or Taking Off of Aircraft) (Amendment)
Notice 1993--------------------------------------------------------------------------- 421/93
Copyright Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule)
(No. 2) Notice 1993 ----------------------------------------------------------------- 422/93 Specification of Public Office -------------------------------------------------------------- 423/93 Sessional Papers 1993-94
No. 20 — The Hong Kong Industrial Estates Corporation Annual Report 1992-93
No. 21 — Director of Social Welfare Incorporated Statement of Accounts for the Financial Year Ended 31 March 1992
No. 22 — Report by the Trustee of the Correctional Services Children's Education Trust for the Period 1 September 1991 to 31 August 1992
Oral answers to questions
Centralized and computerized medical records system
1. MR HOWARD YOUNG asked: To save patients from having to go through the same medical tests again on being transferred from one hospital to another and for speedy patient management, will the Government inform this Council whether it will consider setting up a centralized and computerized medical records system so that the patients' medical records can be transferred across hospitals?
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SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, first, a word about medical records generally : medical records contain privileged information which could attract claims of confidentiality. No information can be released without the explicit consent of the patient; or the information is required by law.
The Hospital Authority is developing a comprehensive Information Technology Strategy which safeguards confidentiality of medical records while improving quality and continuity of patient care. A territory-wide system of computerized Patient Master Index is being fully developed based on Identity Card numbers. This index will provide access to basic personal particulars, demographic data and brief medical histories of patients for doctors in all public hospitals.
In the long term, the Patient Master Index will be expanded to include the clinical diagnosis of patients and types of treatment performed. This will be achieved initially through the development of a medical records abstracting system, currently being piloted in three hospitals. The system will be supplemented by a computerized laboratory management/reporting system which will be introduced to nine major hospitals by 1997 to provide clinical data on laboratory investigation. In addition, a pilot scheme will be introduced in one hospital in 1994-95 to set up a pharmacy management system which provides data on drug prescription.
MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, in regard to the system of computerized Patient Master Index mentioned in the reply just now, has the Administration assessed how high the costs of setting up such a system will be? Furthermore, considering that computer software very often is more expensive than hardware, is there any software readily available from overseas, which in a way can save considerable programming costs?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, information technology development for the Hospital Authority was costed at $70 million in 1992-93 and $108 million in 1993-94. The Government has committed funding of about $220 million for 1994-95 and 1995-96. The exact comparison in terms of cost-benefit analysis with other countries is not available but the advantage of maintaining the records is obvious in that it does improve quality and ensure continuity of patient care. I would put the question of the availability of software to the Hospital Authority for their consideration.
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DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr President, could the Administration inform this Council how it will facilitate the request for details in respect of patients who happen to end up in the care of a private practitioner or a private hospital? And how could a patient get details of his own records?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, as I said in my main reply, medical records are privileged information between patients and their doctors. The legal principle is set out in Article 14 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights Ordinance 1991, which provides that no one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy. No records can therefore be released without the explicit consent of the patient or unless the information is required by law.
DR LAM KUI-CHUN: Mr President, since medical information is confidential but, in general, software of computers is not, how does the Government propose to guarantee confidentiality of this information?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, patients' medical records can only be accessed by authorized doctors on a strictly "need to know" basis. Security measures, such as computer system passwords, have been built into the system to ensure confidentiality. Even as Secretary for Health and Welfare, I can have no access to records nor can any other person.
DR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Mr President, from my experience overseas, I feel that it is not uncommon that hospitals there merely use computers as a large word processor. Data entered into it is not further analysed. Besides, laboratory test results cannot reach the wards for no one has the time to enter the data into the computer. Could the Administration therefore assure us that the same mistake would not be made when computers are installed in hospitals in future, so as to ensure cost-effectiveness and that the data can be used for useful analysis?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, yes, I will certainly look into this.
MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr President, in general the biggest problem with computerization of patient's records in hospitals is how to have piles of records compiled and entered into a computer. Will the Administration inform this Council what measures there are to train sufficient staff to operate the computer system when it is in place?
630 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, whilst the introduction of a computerized information system will not lead to additional staff, the system will be managed by existing staff of the Hospital Authority. Nevertheless, training will have to be provided so that the staff who operate the system will know the system and its intricacies.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to follow up Dr LEONG's supplementary. Since very often public hospital patients will go and consult private practitioners, will the Administration consider, subject to the consent of the patient, making these records accessible on-line to private practitioners in future?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, the first part of the operation will be to computerize the Patient Master Index. After the computerized system is in place in the public hospitals, we intend to explore the possibility of extending the system to general clinics under the management of the Department of Health. In due course, it may be necessary to further extend it to the private sector, but we need to look at it a step at a time.
"Comfort women" during Japanese occupation of Hong Kong
2. MR JIMMY McGREGOR asked: Will the Government inform this Council whether it is aware that the Japanese Military forcibly recruited some Hong Kong women as prostitutes during its occupation of Hong Kong from 1941 to 1945; if so,
(a) whether any investigation was carried out, or any representations made to the Japanese Government, after World War II regarding this form of torture;
(b) how many Hong Kong women were so brutalized, what attempts were made to assist them in starting a new life, and how many are still alive; and
(c) whether it will consider opening a dialogue with the Japanese Government to seek some form of compensation for such brutalized women and their families?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,
(a) It has not been possible, in the time available, to make a thorough search of the archives relating to this period. The records which we have examined both here and in London contain no reference to the forcible recruitment of "comfort women" in Hong Kong. Nor do
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 631
they mention any investigations into this subject immediately after World War II, nor representations to the Japanese Government at that time. The Japanese Government has advised that they have not received any approaches on this subject from Hong Kong residents or associations.
(b) We do not know how many women suffered in this way, nor how many, if any, are still alive. None has approached us for assistance, nor otherwise become known to us.
(c) If any such cases did become known to us, the Hong Kong Government would consider sympathetically how we could assist them. But the scope for legal redress is constrained by the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, will the Hong Kong Government now seek to establish whether any such atrocities were carried out in Hong Kong at that time by asking any person or organization with knowledge of the crime of forcibly recruiting so called "comfort women" to come forward and provide the information to an appropriate and sympathetic agency which would of course maintain the highest level of confidentiality? Such information could be used to determine whether a case may exist for Hong Kong to seek some form of compensation from the Japanese Government, possibly as a grant to be used to help those who suffered during the Japanese occupation. And finally, can the Government advise this Council on the extent of the constraints mentioned by the Secretary, presumably under Article 14 of the San Francisco Treaty? Do they include crimes which have nothing to do with the conduct of war?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the best way for any individuals, or indeed other people with information on this subject, to make this known to the Government would be through the Social Welfare Department, and in particular the Family Services Division of the Social Welfare Department. As I have said, we have never received any information on this subject, but we would obviously consider it sympathetically if we did receive any such information.
As regards the second part of the question, I am advised that the arrangements made under the San Francisco Treaty of 1951 and subsequent payments made by the Japanese Government fully discharged their obligations for the damage and suffering caused during the war and that there would be no legal basis for further claims on the Japanese Government. This does not necessarily mean that there would not be a basis for moral claims.
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MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, I am wondering whether the Secretary, in the course of carrying out his search through the archives, has found any instances of men being forced into immoral acts during the war.
PRESIDENT: Mr TANG, I think you are going beyond the scope of the question. Would you like to rephrase your question? I am not sure I understood it.
MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, I am wondering whether the Secretary, in the course of searching through the archives for information on women being recruited to become prostitutes during the Japanese occupation, has discovered any instances also of men being so recruited.
DR PHILIP WONG: Mr President, can the Secretary elaborate a bit further on what the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951 is all about?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, that was the peace treaty made between Japan and the allied powers.
DR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary said in his reply that no women had approached the Government for assistance. It may be because they do not know exactly how to seek assistance. Can the Administration give assurances that, firstly, it will make known to the public which department they can approach for assistance or reporting the case; secondly, it will negotiate with Japan on how compensation should be made on receipt of such information?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, as I said in answer to a previous supplementary, I think that they may well be — if there are any such women — reluctant to come forward. But the department where they should come forward to is the Social Welfare Department who will, of course, treat any information that they receive in confidence. I cannot say what we would do. We have not received any such cases. We would obviously have to consider them.
DR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Mr President, I am not asking which department to approach. My question is: Will the Administration make known to the public (by way of public announcement) which department will handle these case, that is, by means of public education?
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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: I am sorry, Mr President, I do not understand the question. I thought I said very clearly that people who wish to report such cases should do so to the Family Services Division of the Social Welfare Department.
DR HUANG CHEN-YA: Mr President, I had better speak in English. What I was asking is this: Would the Secretary make certain, by means of public education or publicity, that the people who may want to report such cases can know where they should report such cases to, because these women may not know who they should be reporting their problems to?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, there has been quite some considerable publicity on this whole subject, not relating to Hong Kong but relating to other countries in the region, earlier this year. And as I have said, the result of that has been that no such cases have come forward in Hong Kong If anybody did wish to report it then they should do so to the Social Welfare Department and I hope that that information will get reported.
MR SZETO WAH (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Liberal Democratic Government of Japan has been in power for a long time until recently. The attitude of the Hosokawa Government towards war is different from that of the past Administrations. Will the Hong Kong Government take this opportunity to raise the issues of "comfort women" and "compensation" with Japan through the British Government acting on behalf of Hong Kong?
PRESIDENT: I think your question really goes way beyond elucidating the answer, Mr SZETO Wah. You will have to narrow it.
MR SZETO WAH (in Cantonese): Mr President, given that the new Hosokawa Government has a different attitude towards wars in the past, will the Administration inform this Council whether it will gather information on recruitment of "comfort women" in Hong Kong and seek "compensation" from the Japanese Government?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, it is the case that the previous Japanese Government, in fact the outgoing Japanese Government, did issue an apology earlier this year to all the women who suffered in this way and I believe that that apology was repeated by the present Japanese Government more recently. I think that the question is somewhat hypothetical, as I have said we have no information of any such cases in Hong Kong. If we did receive information on any such cases then we would consider in what way we could assist them.
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MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, would the Secretary not agree that it would be entirely appropriate for the Hong Kong Government to take the initiative to ask people whether there is such information available? It would be extremely unlikely for such people, having stayed silent for 50 years, to come forward now of their own volition unless they were sure that the Hong Kong Government wished to have that information and could make use of it.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, yes, I believe and hope that, if there are any such cases, the publicity that will no doubt ensue from the question being raised in this meeting will encourage people to come forward. That is why I have tried to indicate how they should come forward.
Treason or theft of state secrets
3. MR JAMES TO asked (in Cantonese): In the light of Article 23 of the Basic Law, which requires the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to enact laws to prohibit, among other things, any act of treason or theft of state secrets, etc, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the local legislation to replace the United Kingdom Offical Secrets Act 1989 is being drafted; if so, whether the Chinese Government will be consulted on the draft to ensure compatibility with the above Article and when the relevant Bill(s) will be introduced into this Council; and
(b) whether provisions on treason and other offences against the crown under the Crimes Ordinance (Cap. 200) will be reviewed; if so, when the review is expected to be completed?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, as the Attorney General explained to this Council in answer to a question on 13 October, we have a programme for localizing certain United Kingdom enactments which now apply to Hong Kong, the substance of which with any necessary changes we would wish to see continuing to apply here after 30 June 1997; and also a programme to adapt Hong Kong laws so that on 1 July 1997 they will be consistent with the Basic Law.
Local legislation to replace the United Kingdom Official Secrets Acts has not been, and is not yet being, drafted. However, we have done some work on this subject, and I expect to put proposals to the Executive Council in the next few months.
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We are also reviewing the provisions in the Crimes Ordinance relating to treason and other offences against the Crown. Here again, I expect to put proposals to the Executive Council in the next few months.
We will wish in due course to discuss these matters with the Chinese.
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary says in the third paragraph of his reply that the provisions in the Crimes Ordinance relating to treason and other offences against the Crown are under review. According to recent reports, the question of subversion on the part of Members was brought up during Sino-British talks when the concept of "through train" was referred to. Can the Secretary inform this Council, in the course of reviewing the Crimes Ordinance and during negotiations with China in future, what the approach and principles will be when discussing with the Chinese Government acts of subversion against the Central People's Government referred to in Article 23 of
the Basic Law, so that Members can have a smooth transition from 1995 to beyond 1997?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I do not think I can answer any questions on the "through train". But I think what I can say is this: subversion per se is not mentioned in the Crimes Ordinance and is not an offence under Hong Kong law at present. We have not yet formulated our proposals on how we might adapt those provisions in the Crimes Ordinance. But in general I think we would be likely to propose retaining the law as it is with only such necessary changes as are required to reflect the change of sovereignty on 1 July 1997.
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Administration explain further the term treason in the context of the Crimes Ordinance (Cap 200)? If a group of demonstrators led by public figures chanted: "Down with the British Government",
"Down with the Queen" and "Down with Chris PATTEN", will their acts constitute treason or subversion?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I do not think that I can answer that question. I cannot give legal advice at all, let alone in the abstract.
PRESIDENT: Would you like to rephrase your question, Mr LEE?
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, although the Secretary cannot give an oral reply now, he may supply a written answer as to whether such acts will consitute treason or subversion.
636 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 PRESIDENT: You are asking for an answer to a hypothetical legal question, Mr LEE.
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, that is not a hypothetical question. In the past, there were in fact people who chanted in the street: "Down with the British Government". So I am only seeking legal advice as to whether such an act constitutes treason or subversion.
PRESIDENT: Secretary?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: I am afraid, Mr President, I cannot answer that question.
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, if the Secretary cannot answer this question which involves legal concepts, can other public officers provide legal advice or answer?
MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Point of order, Mr President. Under the provisions of Standing Order 18(1)(h), "A question shall not be asked for the purpose of obtaining an expression of opinion, the solution of an abstract legal question, or the answer to a hypothetical proposition." So the question is out of order.
PRESIDENT: Was your question, Mr LEE, asking whether the persons who did what you say did happen committed an offence under the present law of treason? Is that what you are asking?
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, the instances I referred to in my question did happen in Hong Kong during the riots in 1967 when demonstrators chanted: "Down with the British Government" and "Down with the Queen". Now I am only seeking legal opinion on whether such acts constitute treason and subversion under the existing laws.
PRESIDENT: I think what you might be permitted to do is to ask whether any prosecutions were brought, Mr LEE. Could an answer be supplied in writing, Secretary?
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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Yes, Mr President. (Annex I) I do not know the answer to that now, but perhaps I should say that I do believe that there have been no prosecutions for treason within living memory.
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, when drafting or amending the relevant legislation, will the Administration consider the difference in certain legal concepts between China and Hong Kong in particular those concerning treason, theft of state secrets and other acts against the Government? In this connection, will the Administration inform this Council whether there are intentions to consult Hong Kong's legal profession especially the Bar Association and the Law Society to ensure that Hong Kong's future legislation will be acceptable to more LegCo Members?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, as I say, we have not yet formulated our proposals and we have not yet consulted the Executive Council. So I cannot at this stage say what proposals we will come up with nor how we will proceed with them. But if we do bring forward any legislation, clearly it will be for the Legislative Council to then decide and make its decision on that draft legislation.
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG: Mr President, a point of clarification.
PRESIDENT: Yes, but keep it short, Mr MAN.
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG: Mr President, if that is the case, can I ask whether the Government is intending to consult the Law Society and the Bar Association?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, no, we have no such intention at present.
MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, if the question asked by Mr LEE Wing-tat just now is considered a "hypothetical" one, can the Administration inform this Council whether it will seek legal advice on the legal definitions of terms like "treason" or "subversion" and make them known to Hong Kong people and the Legislative Council? At the same time, will the legal definitions as agreed to by the Hong Kong Government be brought to the attention of the Chinese Government?
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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I am not sure that I understand the question. The offence of treason and other offences against the Crown are clearly set out in the Crimes Ordinance. There must be a lot of law and legal precedents on precisely what these mean.
DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Mr President, it is mentioned in the second paragraph of the Secretary's reply that the Administration has no intention of localizing the United Kingdom Official Secrets Acts. Does the Administration know that when our relationship with Britain comes to an end in 1997, the United Kingdom Official Secrets Acts will become invalid in the absence of the localization of the Acts? Why has the Administration still not stepped up its efforts in this regard though it is fully aware of the situation?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I did not say we had no intention of localizing it. What I did say is that we had not yet drafted any local legislation. It is a subject we are working on and we expect to put proposals to the Executive Council in a few months' time.
International telephone services rates
4. MR LAU CHIN-SHEK asked (in Cantonese): Will the Government inform this Council whether consideration will be given to requesting the Hong Kong Telecom International Limited to make public any agreement reached with overseas telecommunications companies on the accounting rates in respect of international telephone services as well as the relevant data? If not, how can the Government assure the public that the Hong Kong Telecom International Limited, currently one of the largest telecommunications service providers in Hong Kong, will not employ price discrimination measures against its competitors?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Mr President, to begin with I would like to give Members the background on the accounting rates system. Accounting rates were introduced in the early part of the twentieth century, when national telephone companies were not allowed to operate in other countries and so had to rely on their overseas counterparts to deliver calls to their final destination. The accounting rate is a charge for this service. It is normally expressed as a per minute fee, and is paid on the difference between outgoing and incoming traffic. In other words if traffic is in balance no money changes hands.
Over recent years, because the number of outgoing calls from Hong Kong exceed incoming ones, Hong Kong Telecom International (HKTI) has been making net outpayments to its overseas counterparts. HKTI works through negotiation to lower accounting rates and hence reduce our outpayments. But
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 639
success depends on the other party agreeing, and since in most cases the other party is a net recipient this is not easy.
As our negotiating partners in other countries (the United Kingdom, Japan, Australia and so on) do not disclose public accounting rates, if we disclose ours this would weaken HKTI's negotiating position, leading ultimately to a poorer outcome for Hong Kong and higher tariffs for consumers.
How then are the public protected? The Telecommunications Authority (TA) currently has full details of all accounting rate agreements entered into by the company and the profitability of the IDD service on a route-by-route basis. That information is used to ensure that any application from the company to vary IDD charges is fair and equitable.
Finally, the last part of Mr LAU's question assumes that there is a relationship between the non-disclosure of accounting rates and anti-competitive discriminatory pricing. This is not so: The same accounting rates apply to all telecoms operators in Hong Kong, regardless of whether or not they are members of the Hong Kong Telecom Group. Under section 36A of the Telecommunication Ordinance the TA is empowered to determine the terms and conditions of network interconnection and to prevent any discriminatory pricing by HKTI in relation to the services it offers to other operators.
MR LAU CHIN-SHEK (in Cantonese): Mr President, my follow-up question consists of two parts. Firstly, can the Administration make an investigation to ascertain whether the extent of the current IDD rates reduction across the board is directly related to the accounting rates reduction in order to find out whether the Hong Kong Telecom International Limited has violated the principle of fair competition? Secondly, in order to safeguard the interest of the people of Hong Kong, will the Administration follow the practice of the telecommunications authority of Canada in stipulating that when the accounting rates with a country are lowered, Hong Kong Telecom must lower its IDD charges correspondingly within six months?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Mr President, the agreement between the Hong Kong Telecom International and the Administration is that IDD charges will be reduced by 12% across the board in the coming three years. We have already entered the first year, and recently the Hong Kong Telecom International has generally lowered the IDD charges by around 8% which means that it must at least further lower the charges by 4% in the next two years in order to attain the objective of 12% reduction. During the next two years when charges are further lowered, the Director-General of the Telecommunications Authority will follow closely how that is being carried out. We may also consider the practices of other countries, if such practices can cater for the needs of Hong Kong and are beneficial to Hong Kong users.
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MR LAU CHIN-SHEK (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the reduction mentioned by the Secretary include other Asian countries like Taiwan, China, Japan, the Philippines and Indonesia?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Mr President, the reduction that the company has promised to offer is on an overall basis. As regards the rates of reduction for our overseas counterparts, they are dependent upon the number of incoming and outgoing calls between these countries and Hong Kong and the balance of payments. So in general terms, the reduction should be on an overall basis, including the countries referred to by Mr LAU, and there will be further reductions in the next two years. But the actual rates of reduction and the time of implementation will depend on the circumstances prevailing then.
MR STEVEN POON (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Administration inform this Council whether the accounting rates agreements are between countries or between a local company and its overseas counterparts? If the agreements are between countries, then why are the negotiations not conducted by the Hong Kong Government; if they are between companies, then has our Administration monitored this so-called "accounting rates system" negotiated between the Hong Kong Telecom and its overseas counterparts? I asked this because with the opening up of the telecommunications market abroad and with more and more telecommunications companies offering lower rates, the Hong Kong Telecom should not be allowed to select negotiating partners of its own preference.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Mr President, countries around the world which have maintained long distance telephone services with Hong Kong operate in one of the two ways as follows: One is with telephone services run by private companies. Many western countries and countries having commercial or industrial relations with Hong Kong follow this practice. The other is operated by the state, as in some countries. As regards the countries which I referred to as having operated long distance telephone services with Hong Kong, the negotiations are between companies. Some of these countries are beginning to sense that negotiations in future may be between countries instead of between companies. But that is not the existing practice. All negotiations at present are between companies. If the world trend moves towards negotiations between countries, Hong Kong will then consider whether it is necessary to change this method of negotiation.
MR STEVEN POON (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary has not answered the second part of my question.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 641 PRESIDENT: Would you like to remind the Secretary, please?
MR STEVEN POON (in Cantonese): Mr President, if such agreements are reached between companies, can the Hong Kong Telecom choose to negotiate with any company it prefers, or is it subject to the Administration's direction that it should negotiate with overseas counterparts offering a lower rate (for example, the United States where the telecommunications market is open and competition is keen and there are many companies from which one can choose)? In other words, what is the monitoring role played by the Administration in this respect; can it specify that the Hong Kong Telecom should negotiate with a particular company such that the public of Hong Kong can enjoy a lower rate?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Hong Kong Government and the Director-General of the Telecommunications Authority act mainly as arbitrators for the protection of public interest. The Director-General of the Telecommunications Authority will not issue commercial directives on the details of negotiations between the Hong Kong Telecom and its overseas counterparts, because this is a commercial matter and many of the issues concerning negotiations are not related to the accounting rates system. So the Administration's task is only to ensure that the company functions in the best interest of Hong Kong in genral.
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, the real test of the fairness of the accounting rate system must be how much we actually pay for our international calls. My question is: How do our rates actually compare against the rates of our main communications partners?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, I am happy to report that our rates compare very favourably. It would not be possible for me to actually quote examples off the cuff, but I could give Mr WONG a written reply (Annex II) with examples. In some cases, where we have a large number of calls, if one calls a country from Hong Kong the rate could be as low as a third of what one will have to pay for an equal amount of call time calling from that particular country.
Wharf Cable channels for use by Government
5. MRS PEGGY LAM asked (in Cantonese): Under clause 10.3.1 of the franchise for Wharf Cable, the licensee shall make available to the Government, free of charge and expense, such use of not more than three channels in the basic package of programmes as may be directed by the Broadcasting Authority. Will the Administration inform this Council whether community groups, such
642 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
as organizations for women and the environment, will be given free access to convey their messages on such channels?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Mr President, clause 10.3.1 of Wharf Cable's licence requires Wharf Cable to make available to the Government, free of charge and expense, the use of not more than three channels when requested in writing by the Broadcasting Authority. However, these channels are only required to be made available after 1 January 1995 and are subject to the availability of frequency spectrum.
As Wharf Cable, which has just launched its services last Sunday, is currently using Microwave Multipoint Distribution System, or MMDS for short, where the frequency spectrum available is very much limited, we do not expect it to be able to meet this requirement until its system switches over to optic fibre in three years' time. Hence it is early days yet to decide how these government channels are to be utilized.
The policy intention for reserving these channels for the Government's use is to ensure that public affairs and community information and education programmes, which are normally not commercially attractive to commercial broadcasters, may have an avenue to be broadcast. Our present thinking is for these programmes to be produced by RTHK. But it is unlikely that RTHK would have sufficient resources to produce enough programmes to fill the air-time for all three government channels. It is therefore possible that some air-time on the government channels might be made available for access by community groups. However, allowing any community groups access onto such cable TV channels is a complex matter and much careful thought need to be given before a firm policy can be drawn up.
We are in the process of seeking more information overseas to see how other authorities deal with community access onto cable TV systems. Thereafter, we shall need to discuss with Wharf Cable and consult the Broadcasting Authority before drawing up a set of policy proposals. The Recreation and Culture Panel of this Council will certainly be consulted before any policy on community access onto the Wharf Cable TV system is finalized.
MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, may I refer to the third paragraph of the Secretary's reply in which it says, "..... for access by community groups". If it is really the intention of the Administration to allow access by community groups, will it provide
financial or technical support to those interested groups so that they can have access onto these channels? Will the Administration also consider setting up a management committee to look after the allocation of air-time to these community groups and to formulate rules as to how these channels are to be used?
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SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Mr President, these are precisely the sort of questions that we will need to examine more carefully as I said it is a complex issue and we need to give more thought to it. And I would be happy to receive any views and comments from organizations which may be interested in gaining access to these channels.
MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Mr President, I understand that the present Secretary and his predecessor had had a number of overseas study trips and had commissioned a consultancy to conduct studies and draw up policy proposals on cable TV before granting these licences. It was decided then that three channels would be provided. But why up to now can we still not see any firm policy proposals which are yet to be formulated? Will the Secretary inform us how long the process will be and how much time will be left before January 1995 for the community to make preparation for the use of these channels?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Mr President, I think I have indicated that the licence conditions have spelt out that we cannot gain access to these channels until 1 January 1995. But the reality is that it is likely to be much longer because Wharf Cable will not be moving towards a fibre optic system until three years from now. So we have time on our hands to examine and draw up careful and practical policy proposals to allow community access. During our examination of the licensing framework for licensing cable TV in Hong Kong, we did look into the examples of a few overseas countries on the question of community access. At that time, we only examined the principles with regard to whether community access should or should not be included in the licensing conditions. And, thereafter, we have not gone into the practical details as to how community access is to be arranged. These we will have to discuss with the licensee and, as I said in my main answer, we will be doing that shortly, before drawing up firm proposals.
MR LAU WAH-SUM: Mr President, concerning the set of policy proposals as referred to in the fourth paragraph of his main reply, will the Secretary inform this Council whether the Administration would consult the public, particularly community groups, before reaching a decision on the policy, particularly on the financing and the operation of these channels?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Mr President, I did say that I would welcome any views and comments from any interested organizations. And certainly when we have drawn up proposals for discussion with the Broadcasting Authority and the Recreation and Culture Panel of this Council, these proposals will be made know publicly and feedback as well as comments from interested groups will be welcome.
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MR MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, public access channel has been in place in some democracies and has proven to be popular. Has the Secretary, as an initial move, sought the views of the Radio Television Hong Kong or started discussing with the Wharf Cable? If so, will the Secretary inform this Council what the initial response is; if not, is it possible to implement the proposal within three years, that is, before the licence expires?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Mr President, first of all, I would like to make it clear that the experiences in other overseas countries are not always that satisfactory. And I would like to quote here a statement in a report recently published in America concerning the European experiment where it says: "Few of the European experiments conducted in the 1970s have survived into the 1980s." This indicates that there are very fundamental practical problems in allowing community access to cable TV systems, although in some states in America this has proven to be a welcome measure to the local communities. When we issued the licence to them, we did discuss with Wharf Cable on the question of community access to the government channels reserved under the Wharf Cable licence. And discussions with Wharf Cable on that front are under way. But our primary concern up to now has been to ensure that Wharf Cable is able to deliver their main service to the public on time. Now that their service has been officially launched, I think we will be able to discuss with them in more earnest on other issues, including community access issues.
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, is it the intention of the Administration to have an education channel on cable TV, and when does the Administration think that there will be sufficient coverage of the territory to make these broadcasts worthwhile?
PRESIDENT: Is this in reference to the three channels that we have been discussing? MR PETER WONG: That is correct.
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Mr President, we have not yet decided on the nature and type of programmes to be put on the three government channels when they become available, although I did mention in my main answer that it is one of our intentions to ensure that public affairs, community information and education programmes are being broadcast through these channels.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 645 Chinese language standards
6. MR TIK CHI-YUEN asked (in Cantonese): It is stated in the policy address that the Government will make efforts to improve the standards of Chinese language (including Putonghua), so that the development of education in Hong Kong can be more responsive to the needs in the transition period. Apart from the above mentioned policy, will the Government inform this Council of the measures and specific work to be put in place in reviewing curricular contents (including civic education) and the policy on academic accreditation, so as to cope with the development of education in the transition period?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, curriculum development is an on-going process. The Government is fully aware that the transition period introduces new elements which have to be taken into account.
At the primary level, a new subject entitled "General Studies" is being developed for introduction in 1996. It embodies basic knowledge of the geographical, historical, political and economic developments of China and Hong Kong as well as the relationship between China and the future Hong Kong SAR. At the secondary level, two subjects, namely Economic and Public Affairs as well as Government and Public Affairs, are currently under review to put more emphasis on the economic and political relationship between Hong Kong and China. At the Advanced Supplementary Level, the new subject of Liberal Studies, which was introduced in 1992, has a module which addresses current issues on China, including philosophies that characterize governments in China and Hong Kong, China's modernization policy and her legal and law enforcement systems.
The Education Department also encourages schools to organize extracurricular activities to expand students' knowledge on current issues, enhance their general awareness and enable them to form balanced views. Teaching kits on Civic Education, the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the Basic Law have been provided to assist teachers in covering these important topics.
With reference to the second part of the question, there appears to be a discrepancy between the Chinese and English versions. Academic accreditation as used in the English version refers to the process of assuring the quality of degree level qualifications awarded by local tertiary institutions. Under existing policy, this responsibility is vested in some tertiary institutions which are able to discharge it on their own, and in others with the help of the Hong Kong Council for Academic Accreditation. Like curriculum development, academic accreditation is a continuous process which takes into account changing circumstances. There is, as far as we can see, no specific requirement arising from the transition to be addressed in policy and practical terms.
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If, as suggested in the Chinese version, the question is directed more at the recognition in Hong Kong of PRC academic qualifications, and other non Commonwealth countries I will have to say that this is a much wider issue, involving the position taken by different people having to look at these qualifications, such as employers and professional bodies. As far as education is concerned, there already exists a mechanism under which holders of PRC or other overseas qualifications may be assessed for suitability to take up teaching at the non-graduate level. As for graduate positions, according to the Education Commission Report No. 5, an Advisory Committee on Teacher Education and Qualifications was established early this year and it will be looking into this particular point.
MR TIK CHI-YUEN (in Cantonese): Mr President, the second part of my question seeks to get a better understanding of the way in which the Administration handles accreditation of qualifications acquired in the People's Republic of China; but the Secretary considered that as a much wider issue. Apart from for example the assessment procedure for non-graduate teachers as mentioned earlier, are there any other measures or systems through which a mechanism can be set up to assess the PRC academic qualifications? And if such a mechanism is to be set up, how long will it take, and when will it be put in place?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, regarding the demand in schools, there is, as I have said, a mechanism for assessing non graduate qualifications through the Education Department. As for the demand for graduate teachers, they will be taken care of by the Advisory Committee on Teacher Education and Qualifications which will start work very soon to assess academic qualifications acquired in China and other non-commonwealth countries so as to meet local demand for graduate teachers.
As far as the demand in other government departments is concerned, we have examined the entry qualifications in the public sector through the Civil Service Branch and set the requirements on a case-by-case basis. Generally speaking, the Hong Kong Council for Academic Accrediation is responsible for academic contacts with other countries, such as China. It is hoped that through our close contacts in the past year, we are able to know more about the academic qualifications we need. Hong Kong stands to benefit if there is a way to accredit the PRC academic qualifications.
MR MOSES CHENG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the curriculum review mentioned in the second paragraph of the main reply is very wide ranging. Will the Administration inform this Council if the Education Department will, apart from providing teaching kits, arrange special training programmes for teachers to assist them in teaching new topics?
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SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, curriculum development, in fact, covers a very wide area. Basically, there are three major areas of work, namely, first, to promote civic education through revising and developing the curriculum; second, to promote civic education by way of extra-curricular activities such as civic education activities; and third, to promote the development of civic awareness through the so-called "hidden curricula" such as "school discipline" and other administrative measures. To give a general picture of what we have been doing, teacher's training at the primary and secondary levels has been enhanced with the joint efforts of the colleges of education and the Inspectorate Division. Through the Committee on the Promotion of Civic Education set up by the Government, we intend to develop more teaching kits, and as far as I know, some of these, including that on the development of human rights in Hong Kong, will be produced in two months. And teaching kits on the rule of law in Hong Kong will be produced in due course. I hope that through all these efforts the needs of schools will be met and that students can have a better understanding of the latest development and can keep pace with new social demands.
MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, at present, "civic education" is not a compulsory subject in schools and it is up to schools themselves to decide whether to teach this subject. If civic education, human rights, the rule of law, the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law and so on, as mentioned in the reply, are important topics, would the Administration make "civic education" a compulsory subject so as to cope with the need of education development during the transition period? If not, will it not be self-contradictory if the Administration stresses the importance of civic education but does not make it a compulsory subject? How can the Administration ensure that students will be able to learn this subject?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, as I have said earlier, we promote civic education through three different approaches, namely, the "curricular", "extra-curricular" and "school activity" approaches. Our experiences in the past 10 years or so make us realize that the cross-curricular approach is the most effective. That is to say, education is not confined to the teaching of different subjects but includes cultivation and development of civic awareness through extra curricular and school activities. Facts show that our efforts in the past 10 years have not been wasted. According to my observation and experience, civic awareness in respect of schools and students has been enhanced a great deal. This demonstrates that to make this subject a compulsory one would be a narrow and undesirable approach. We, therefore, consider the current "cross-curricular" approach the best option.
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MR ALFRED TSO (in Cantonese): Mr President, whether we call it "civic education" or "national education", this is where many advanced countries have devoted a lot of efforts. Will the Administration conduct a further review or even set up a working group to design the curriculum so as to further promote civic education before and after 1997?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, as I said earlier, we have a Committee on the Promotion of Civic Education. With the assistance of the City and New Territories Administration, the Committee draws on the knowledge and experience of different sectors of the community and plays a leading role in promoting civic education. Its work covers a wide area. As far as I know, the work we are conducting is wide ranging and open. I am sure with this Committee and with, for example, the on-going review and development of the curriculum, the introduction of new subjects and the teaching of existing subjects which I have mentioned, civic education can be better promoted at schools and in the community at large.
PRESIDENT: We must move on. Before I do so, however, in answer to a Member who has raised a query as to an earlier supplementary question, let me say that I have permitted a Member to ask a follow-up to a question under a procedure agreed with the Procedure Subcommittee of the House Committee whereby a Member may ask a follow up question if he thinks that his question has not been fully answered.
Written answers to questions
Demand side of planned public and private projects
7. MR RONALD ARCULLI asked: Regarding the study currently being undertaken by the Works Branch in respect of the demand side of planned public and private projects in Hong Kong, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether such study will take into account the demand for professional and skilled labour required by:
(i) normal construction work in Hong Kong;
(ii) all the core projects for the new airport;
(iii) the new airport construction including all the numerous government and related buildings that will be completed at the same time;
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(iv) Hong Kong investments and investments from other countries using professionals from Hong Kong companies engaged in construction and related activities in China; and
(b) how tertiary institutions and the Vocational Training Council would be able to cope with such demand?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President,
(a) The study currently being undertaken by the Works Branch is for the development of a medium to long-term forecasting model for assessing the demand for on-site human resources in the construction industry and this will include predictions for professional and skilled labour. Because the current study is the first of its kind, the methodology has had to be structured to take into account the limited and frequently untested statistical information available. The predications will be grouped into five skill levels — technologists (which includes professional staff), technicians, craftsmen, operatives and general workers. Insofar as government projects and similar projects are concerned, the demand side information from the responsible department or authority will be taken into the model. For the private sector, however, gathering reliable information for the model will be indirect and hence less reliable. The Construction Advisory Board and other avenues of formal contact will be used so far as possible.
The study will take into account the demand required by normal construction works in Hong Kong, both in the private and public sectors, the airport core projects including the new airport itself, as well as Hong Kong investments and investments from other countries using professionals from Hong Kong companies engaged in construction and related activities in China.
(b) It is premature to consider how the tertiary institutions and the Vocational Training Council would respond to the projected demand since the study has not yet been completed. However, the tertiary institutions and the Vocational Training Council would no doubt carefully consider the findings of the study when deliberating their plans on provision of places.
650 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 British National (Overseas) Registration Scheme
8. MR EDWARD HO asked: In relation to the British National (Overseas) (BN(O)) Registration Scheme, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the publicity arrangements overseas to ensure that British Dependent Territory Citizens (BDTCs) abroad are aware of the cut-off dates for registration;
(b) whether it is aware of the difficulties which some BDTCs abroad have in obtaining application forms by telephone from British Embassies, in particular the one in Washington DC; and
(c) in view of (b), whether it will consider making forms available in all Hong Kong Government overseas offices and the Immigration Department in Hong Kong?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,
(a) We have arranged for the phased BN(O) registration programme to be publicized overseas in the following ways:
(i) by advertisement
regular advertisements on the timetable for registration and reminders for each phase are placed in nine overseas Chinese newspapers circulated in Canada, the United States, Australia, New Zealand and Europe and two magazines circulated in Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia. Advertisements are also placed in three Hong Kong magazines which are very popular among overseas Hong Kong residents;
(ii) by information leaflet and poster
information leaflets on the phased registration programme have been sent to overseas British posts, the United Kingdom Passport Offices, the United Kingdom Immigration Service and Hong Kong Government overseas offices for dissemination to Hong Kong BDTCs abroad. Posters have also been sent to these posts and offices to attract the attention of visiting BDTCs;
(iii) by Hong Kong Government overseas offices
the Hong Kong Government Offices in London, Geneva, Washington, New York, San Francisco, Toronto and Tokyo
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have been emphasizing the phased registration programme in their contacts with the overseas Hong Kong communities;
(iv) by radio announcements
radio tapes on the phased registration programme have been sent to overseas Chinese radio stations for broadcasting; and
(v) by announcements on local television and radio channels
announcements are broadcast through television and radio stations in Hong Kong appealing to local people specifically to inform their friends or relatives abroad of the phased registration programme.
(b) We maintain close contact with our overseas offices and with overseas British posts. We are aware that in the first month or so of the phased registration programme, some British posts experienced teething problems with the new procedures involved in issuing BN(O) passports; one of which was the distribution of application forms to applicants who did not reside in the vicinity of the post. We have assisted to overcome these problems, and, we believe, to reduce to a minimum inconvenience to BDTCs abroad.
(c) Application forms for overseas applicants are already available at our overseas offices and even at British posts which do not have passport issuing functions. We are now also arranging for forms to be made available in Hong Kong for people who wish to assist their relatives and friends overseas in obtaining the forms.
Priority discs for the elderly in government clinics
9. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of the numbers of priority discs that are allotted daily to the elderly in government clinics; whether such arrangements are subject to regular review; if so, whether consideration would be given to increasing the number of priority discs for the elderly?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, the numbers of priority discs set aside daily for elderly patients at government out-patient clinics are listed at Appendix. These numbers are determined on the basis of demand and supply of services, having regard particularly to the size and age profile of the population in the catchment area; the demand for and utilization pattern of clinic services by different age groups; the capacity of the individual clinic concerned and the availability of clinic services provided by both the
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public and the private sectors in the vicinity. They are reviewed regularly and are adjusted as necessary to meet service needs.
In addition, elderly patients with chronic diseases who require regular follow-up at clinics are given advanced appointments. They do not require a disc for attendance and their numbers are not subject to quota.
Appendix
Number of Priority Discs Reserved Daily for Elderly Patients
Clinic No of discs
Aberdeen Jockey Club Clinic 75
Anne Black Health Centre 25
Chaiwan Health Centre 40
Cheung Sha Wan Jockey Club Clinic 30
East Kowloon Polyclinic 30
Kam Tin Clinic 10
Kennedy Town Jockey Club Clinic 15
Kowloon Hospital GOPD 45
Kwun Tong Jockey Club Health Centre 50
Lady Trench Polyclinic 70
Lam Tin Polyclinic 20
Lee Kee Memorial Dispensary 23
Li Po Chun Health Centre 30
Lek Yuen Health Centre 70
Madam Yung Fung Shee Health Centre 15
Mona Fong Clinic 30
Mrs Wu York Yu Health Centre 30
Ngau Tau Kok Jockey Club Clinic 30
North Kwai Chung Clinic 30
Robert Black Health Centre 60
Shek Kip Mei Health Centre 25
Shek Wu Hui Jockey Club Clinic 30
Shatin Clinic 30
Sai Ying Pun Jockey Club Clinic 50
Shaukeiwan Jockey Club Clinic 40
Shun Lee Government Medical Clinic 23
South Kwai Chung Clinic 40
Tai Po Jockey Club Clinic 22
Tai Po Wong Siu Ching Clinic 17
Tuen Mun Clinic 40
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Clinic No of discs
Tsing Yi Clinic 50
Tsing Yi Town Clinic 20
Violet Peel Health Centre 70
Wu York Yu Health Centre 45
Wang Tau Hom Jockey Club Clinic 30
Yaumatei Jockey Club Polyclinic 45
Yuen Chau Kok Clinic 10
Yuen Long Jockey Club Clinic 60
Yan Oi Polyclinic 50
Report on Hong Kong to the United Nations Human Rights Committee
10. MR LAU CHIN-SHEK asked (in Chinese): In response to questions raised by Members of this Council at the sitting on 13 October 1993, the Government indicated that between now and June 1997, the British Government would present five reports on Hong Kong to the United Nations Human Rights Committee in accordance with obligations stipulated under human rights treaties and covenants. In this regard, will the Government inform this Council whether it will consider consulting the views of Hong Kong people on the reports' contents, prior to their submission by the British Government, as well as urging the British Government to fully reflect such views in the reports?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President, between now and 1997 the United Kingdom Government will present five human rights reports on Hong Kong to the United Nations. These are:
(i) Initial Report under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (due in January 1994).
(ii) Thirteenth Periodic Report under the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (due in April 1994);
(iii) Fourth Periodic Report under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (due in June 1994);
(iv) Third Periodic Report under the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (due in June 1994); and
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(v) Fourteenth Periodic Report under the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (due in April 1996).
All of these reports are factual in nature: they will contain information on the state of implementation of the relevant treaties.
The Hong Kong Government does not intend to consult formally other parties during the preparation of these reports. Interested parties already have had an opportunity to comment on the implementation of these treaties during the development of the related policies. The intention not to consult formally does not preclude interested parties from expressing their views on these issues to the Government. They are also free to present their views to the United Kingdom Government or the relevant United Nations committee direct.
All reports will be tabled before this Council and will be made public after they have been submitted to the United Nations by the United Kingdom Government.
Ownership of private property by public housing tenants
11. MISS EMILY LAU asked (in Chinese): In regard to the investigation of the Housing Department to inquire into the ownership of private property by public housing tenants through a perusal of the Land Registry records and other means, will the Government inform this council whether such investigation constitutes an interference with the privacy of the public housing tenants and if so, why the Housing Department has been allowed to carry out such investigation?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, the recent survey by the Housing Department of the extent of property ownership among public rental housing tenants was intended as a fact finding exercise. The survey results were analysed in broad terms and are purely for reference in the development of housing policies.
The survey was conducted by matching the department's records with the identity of property owners registered at the Land Registry. As the registers in the Land Registry are open to public inspection, the question of interference with privacy does not arise.
In the course of the survey, the department took steps to ensure that the data collected was handled with care and its use restricted to the general analysis of ownership of domestic properties by public housing tenants. The survey
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findings were published in the aggregate, and no information on individual records or tenants' identities were released. Under established practice, the raw data of the survey was destroyed after processing.
Performance pledges by government departments
12. MR VINCENT CHENG asked: Will the Government inform this Council whether there is any plan to put all the performance pledges by government departments into a consolidated booklet for the public's easy reference?
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, we do not at this stage intend to publish a booklet of all performance pledges. This is because our customers can obtain copies of pledges from the departments they visit, and notices of standards and complaint procedures should normally be displayed at the point of service. It would also be difficult to keep a booklet up to date, to take account of changes to services and personnel in the 50-odd departments which will have made performance pledges by mid-1994.
Nevertheless we will keep the possibility of publishing such a booklet under review in the light of developments. In the meantime, for those who have a broader interest, complete sets of published pledges are available from the Efficiency Unit in the Government Secretariat.
Hepatitis and HIV infection through tattoos
13. DR HUANG CHEN-YA asked (in Chinese): In view of the likely infection of hepatitis and HIV viruses through tattoos, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether measures have been taken to ensure that equipment used in the tattoo trade is safe and hygienic; and
(b) if not, whether legislative control will be introduced for this purpose?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, to ensure that equipment used in the tattoo trade is safe and hygienic, the Department of Health has published "Guidelines on the Prevention of Transmission of Blood-borne Diseases" which are distributed to all owners and operators of tattoo parlours in Hong Kong. The Guidelines focus particularly on the risks of hepatitis-B and HIV transmission and give clear instructions on maintenance of hygienic
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standard, disinfection of equipment and disposal of sharps for these establishments. This is supplemented by the department's regular health education programme on prevention of hepatitis-B and HIV infections.
Under the Quarantine and Prevention of Diseases Ordinance (Cap 141) the Director of Health already has power to enter any premises suspected to be the seat of transmission of any infectious disease, to order the disinfection of the same to his satisfaction and, as necessary, to close the premises. We do not consider further legislation to be required.
Precipitates in tap water
14. DR TANG SIU-TONG asked (in Chinese): The recent discovery of some brownish precipitates in the tap water of several Tuen Mun housing estates and in the town centre of Yuen Long has caused public concern. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) what pollutants have been identified and what has led to such occurrence;
(b) whether the Department of Health has conducted any tests to find out if the tap water in the affected areas is harmful to the consumers' health; if yes, what the findings are; and
(c) how the Government will improve the situation in order to make the affected residents feel relieved with the consumption of their drinking water?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President,
(a) The quality of water in government distribution system in Tuen Mun and Yuen Long areas are normal and satisfactory. The problem of discoloured tap water is basically due to corrosion of the internal surface of the galvanized steel pipes commonly used as the "inside service" within the consumers' premises, resulting in excessive amount of fine iron particles remaining in suspension in the water. The problem is particularly acute when the water has been standing idle in the pipes for some time, or when it is first drawn out from tap in the morning. Under normal circumstances, the water should become clear after the tap has been turned on for a while.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 657
(b) Ensuring the wholesomeness of water supplied to consumers is one of the responsibilities of the Water Supplies Department, who has been closely monitoring the quality of treated water in their supply system.
Tuen Mun area
In response to the complaint of discoloured water in housing estates in Tuen Mun lodged by OMLEGCO in August 1993, WSD staff took 274 water samples for testing from nine government housing estates and two private estates. The test results revealed that all samples taken from the government distribution system just outside the estates were clear and satisfactory. For the water samples taken inside the estates, 92% were found to be visually clear and satisfactory, and the remaining samples were found to be slightly turbid due to high iron content, but were in general bacteriologically satisfactory.
According to the World Health Organization, when iron content in drinking water is above 0.3 mgm/litre, it would give rise to consumer complaints because such water often tastes unpalatable and stains laundry and sanitary ware. However, transient increase of iron content in tap water is unlikely to give rise to immediate adverse health effects.
Yuen Long area
The number of telephone complaints on discoloured water received by WSD in Yuen Long town is tabulated below:
Complaint received
No of
Samples taken
Satisfactory
August 26 72 72 September 1 4 4 October Nil Nil Nil
All these complaints were attended to by WSD's staff and the complainants were subsequently satisfied with the water quality after the inside services of the premises were flushed by WSD's staff.
658 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
(c) In order to avoid the problem in the longer term, both the Water Supplies Department and the Housing Department are now actively considering the possible use of alternative non-ferrous pipe materials which will not be susceptible to rusting.
The Housing Department is currently trying out three alternative materials on a project at Lok Fu Estate. This trial is expected to be completed early next year when a decision will be made as to which alternative material will in future be used for new buildings.
Meanwhile, for existing buildings, regular maintenance programme will continue to be carried out to ensure that storage tanks and water systems in all housing estates are kept clean, and that where the existing pipes need to be renewed, they will be replaced by pipes made of non-ferrous materials.
Police establishment and strength
15. MR LEE WING-TAT asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of the establishment and strength of each police district and division in the territory, and whether there are plans to recruit sufficient police officers to attain the establishment level in the near future; if not, how the Government would maintain adequate police presence on the streets for patrol duties?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, attached is a table showing the establishment and strength of police officers in all police land regions, districts and divisions. Overall, the total strength is some 3% above the establishment. This has been achieved over the past 12 months, as a result of successful recruitment, low wastage, and the redeployment of many officers back to normal operational duties (for example from Vietnamese Migrant detention centre duties).
In addition to regular police officers, auxiliary police and the Police Tactical Units which are not on the establishment in the districts or divisions have also been deployed to augment operations and strengthen patrolling.
The increased police presence on the streets has been successful in lowering the overall crime rate, and the rate of violent crime. We fully intend to continue to maintain an adequate police presence on the streets.
3 November 1993
Police Establishment and Strength (Position as at 1.10.1993)
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL —
New Territories Nort
S
E
Kowloon West S
E
Kowloon East S
E
Hong Kong IslandRegions
Regional HQ 892 772
Regional HQ 480 480
Regional HQ 590 523
Regional HQ
Traffic 281 286
Traffic 219 223
Traffic 322 343
Traffic
Sub-tatal 1 173 1 058
Sub-total 699 703
Sub-total 912 866
Sub-totalHeadquarters
Border DHQ/Div/ 141
164 Kowloon City DHQ 107 93
Kwun Tong DHQ 85
75
Central DHQ
FPD HQ
Lok Ma Chau Sub-di 284 296
Kowloon City 340 329
Kwun Tong 303 311
Central
Ta Kwu Ling Sub-div 121
115
Homantin 148 121
Tseng Kwan O 233 223
Waterfrong
Sha Tau Kok Sub-divLowu/Man Kam To 252
240
Hung Hom
43
70
Peak Sub-div
Border Crossing Poi
Sub-total 798 815
Sub-total 595 543
Sub-total 664 679
Sub-tatalDistrict
Tai Po DHQ/DIV 145 141
Shamshuipo DHQ 105 83
Sau Mau Pint HQ 100 111
Eastern DHQ
Sheung Shui 210 229
Shamshuipo 222
254
Sau Mau Ping 274 266
North Point
232 252
Cheung Sha Wan 224
219
Ngau Tau Kok 180 197
Shau Kei Wan
188 200
Shek Kip Mei
186 191
Chai Wan
Sub-total 775 822
Sub-total 551 556
Sub-total 740 765
Sub-totalDistrict
Tuen Mun DHQ 153 192
Yau Tsim DHQ 138 135
Wong Tai Sin DHQ 117 114
Wan Chai DHQ
Tuen Mun
348 356
Yau Ma Tei 292 339
Wong Tai Sin 311 319
Wan Chai
Castle Peak 381 381
Tsim Sha Tsui 180 192
Tsz Wan Shan 184 194
Happy Valley
Tai Hing
114
114
Sai Kung
Sub-total 882 929
Sub-total 724 780
Sub-total 612 627
Sub-tatalDistrict
Yuen Long DHQ 543 538
Mongkok District 278 254
Airport District 97
84Western DHQ
Yuen Long
218 230
Western
Tin Shui Wai
251 264
Aberdeen
Lau Fau Shan Sub-diPat Heung
190
202
MTR District
42
46
Stanley Sub-div
Sub-total 544 538
Sub-total 468 456
Sub-total 608 624
Sub-totalDistrict
Regional total 4 171 4 162
Regional total 3 037 3 038
Regional total 3 536 3 561
Regional total
660 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
Keys Total
E - Establishment
S - Strength E S HQ - Headquarter 16 250 16 702 DHQ - District Headquarter
DIV - Division
FPD - Field Patrol Detachment
MTR - Mass Transit Railway
Note: Figures are presented by division except where specified. There are altogether five police land regions. Each region consists of a regional headquarters with emergency units and other administrative/support staff including regional crime units. In general each district comprises its headquarters and a number of divisions. Airport, MTR and Mongkok are single division districts.
Industrial accidents records
16. MR HENRY TANG asked: It is stated in paragraph 38 of the Governor's policy address that each worker in the construction industry has a 30% chance of being injured every year. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) how the figure has been arrived at;
(b) whether in the Government's records industrial accidents in the construction industry are classified according to the nature of their causes such as those caused by human factors (that is, avoidable incidents) and non-human factors (that is, purely accidental cases); if so, what the respective figures and percentages for these kinds of accidents in the past year are; and
(c) if not, whether the Government will consider the classification of such records for statistical purposes and for the introduction of more precautionary measures to prevent those "avoidable" industrial accidents?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) This figure is derived from the accident rate in the construction industry. In 1992, the rate was 302.34 accidents per 1 000 workers employed.
(b) The Labour Department does not at present classify industrial accidents according to whether they are caused by human factors or non-human factors. The present classification is based on the recommendations of the International Labour Organization.
Experience indicates that most accidents may be attributable to human failing of one kind or another. For example, if a machine fails, the cause can usually be traced to one or more of the following causes, for example, defective design, improper
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 661
manufacture, incorrect installation, poor maintenance, inadequate training of operators, failure to follow proper operational procedures, and so on.
(c) The Labour Department is planning to review its system of accident statistics towards the end of the year. Any factors that will contribute to effective monitoring of accident situations will be taken into account.
Container storage sites in the New Territories
17. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): Since a number of sites in the New Territories are being used for piling up containers and there have been incidents of container collapses in the past, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) what measures will be taken to prevent the recurrence of container collapses; and
(b) whether priority will be given to rehousing residents who are living in the vicinity of such storage yards and constantly under the threat of container collapses?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, no container collapses in the New Territories have been reported to the police or the Fire Services in recent years. The basis of the statement in the question is therefore unclear.
Nevertheless, regarding part (a) of the question, the Government is aware of the limited risk posed by stacks of containers. The following preventive measures have already been taken by the Labour Department:
(a) the publication of a booklet entitled "Safe Practices for Container Handling" setting out the approach to be adopted to ensure that containers are handled safely in a wide range of situations, including container freight stations, container yards and so on;
(b) amendments to the Factories and Industrial Undertaking Ordinance in July 1992 to extend its coverage to container storage depots and yards; and
(c) the incorporation of container handling safety provisions in the new Factories Industrial Undertakings (Cargo and Container Handling) Regulations.
662 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
In addition to routine inspections, the Labour Department conducted 118 special enforcement inspections at container yards in 1992. One summons in connection with the new container safety requirements has been issued since the new Regulations came into force last year.
On the land-use planning side, where planning permission from the Town Planning Board is required, the Board can also impose conditions to ensure that appropriate safety measures are put in place.
As regards part (b) of the question, the Housing Department has to date not received any requests for rehousing from anyone perceiving themselves to be at risk from collapsing containers. This may be due to the fact that no collapses have occurred or been reported. Since most container storage yards in the New Territories are located on private land, any concerns about safety should be taken up with the owners or operators of the yards in question. The question of priority for rehousing does not, therefore, arise.
Drug abusers aged 21 or below
18. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Chinese): In view of the almost 70% surge in the number of drug abusers aged 21 or below reported in the second quarter of this year when compared with the figure of the corresponding period in the previous year, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether there is any discrepancy between the reported figure and the Government's estimation;
(b) the reasons for the drastic increase; and
(c) of any effective measures that are in hand to contain the drastic increase in the number of young abusers as mentioned above?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,
(a) A total of 928 young drug abusers aged under 21 were reported to the Government's Central Registry of Drug Abuse in the second quarter of 1993; this represents a 68.4% increase over the number reported in the corresponding period in 1992. The Government relies on these reports and does not make separate estimations.
(b) We are not clear as to the reasons for the increase, but the number of reports on young people aged under 21 come from a wide range of reporting agencies, covering law enforcement, treatment and welfare organizations. However, we are concerned about this increase and, with assistance from the Research Subcommittee of the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 663
Action Committee Against Narcotics, we are trying to determine the underlying causes.
(c) Action is being taken to contain the problem on a number of fronts: law enforcement, preventive education and publicity, and treatment and rehabilitation. Enforcement action has been stepped up: there were 5 631 arrests for narcotics offences in the first half of 1993, compared to 3 955 in the corresponding period last year, an increase of 42%. Preventive education has also been stepped up. A new campaign using television, posters and leaflets was launched over the summer with the aim of encouraging greater acceptance of responsibility by parents. A new series of anti-drug talks for parents and children has been introduced as well as a programme in schools for Primary VI. On the treatment side, increasing emphasis is being given to targetting young drug abusers for intensive counselling. And research on the extent and underlying causes of drug-taking among youngsters is ongoing. A proposal to set up a three-year pilot scheme for a treatment centre for young drug abusers has just been received from the Society for the Aid and Rehabilitation of Drug Abusers and is being considered by the Action Committee Against Narcotics.
We are doing all we cant to counter illicit trafficking of drugs and drug abuse.
Joint Admission Scheme
19. MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG asked (in Chinese): In view of the introduction of the Joint Admission Scheme of the Polytechnic, Technical Institutions and Colleges this year, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of places for various non-degree courses provided by the participating institutions under the Scheme, and the enrolment situation of these institutions in the current year;
(b) of the overall number of diploma and higher diploma courses offered by these institutions, and the extent of inadequate or excessive provision of places in various institutions;
(c) of the faculties and courses which are under-enrolled; the causes of under enrolment and whether consideration will be given to adopting remedial measures in regard to those unpopular courses, such as by revising the curriculum to meet current needs;
664 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
(d) of the number of students who, on completion of the diploma courses of the seven technical institutions, have applied through this Scheme and successfully enrolled in higher diploma courses offered by other institutions; and
(e) of the number and types of complaints (if any) related to admission matters received this year and the measures that will be adopted by the Government to improve the situation?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the answers to Mr CHEUNG's five-point question insofar as it relates to the Joint Admission Scheme of the Polytechnics, Technical Institutes and Colleges (JASPIC) are:
(a) There are 2 621 first-year sub-degree places provided by the two Polytechnics and 1 400 by the Technical Colleges. Current registration figures show that these institutions have over-enrolled by about 3% to 5%. There are 4 760 first year diploma places in the Technical Institutes and the current registration figure shows that there is under-enrolment by about 11%. With regard to the two Polytechnics, the enrolment figures are not yet final. We hope to obtain their finalized enrolment figures for 1993-94 around the end of the year.
(b) The two Polytechnics offer three diploma and 31 higher diploma courses while the Technical Institutes and Technical Colleges offer a total of 56 diploma courses and 30 higher diploma courses. As students are offered 14 choices of courses, it is difficult to judge the extent of any inadequate or excessive provision of places solely on the basis of their popularity. Consideration has to be given to the needs of employers as well as prospective employment opportunities in the longer term.
(c) Of all the courses offered by the two Polytechnics, only one course is under enrolled by five places. In the Technical Colleges there are two courses which are under-enrolled by five and eight places respectively. In the Technical Institutes, the under-enrolment occurs mainly in certain disciplines, namely, mechanical and manufacturing engineering, textiles and clothing, printing and hotel studies. The reasons for the under-enrolment are complex involving choice of parents and students. But certain objective factors are also relevant, including the increased provision of post-Secondary V places in general education; a reduction in the number of Secondary V students meeting the entry requirements for diploma courses; and changes in the economic structure of Hong Kong resulting in changes in employment opportunities for graduates of some courses.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 665
Curriculum revision of all courses is an on-going process. The VTC will continue to examine the overall provision of courses in the light of projected manpower requirements and graduate employment surveys. Other measures to attract school leavers will include additional publicity and school visits.
(d) To date, 147 diploma graduates from the Technical Institutes have successfully enrolled in the higher diploma courses offered by other institutions. However, this excludes the enrolment in one Polytechnic which is still analysing all the registration figures.
(e) About 30 complaints have been received so far regarding the JASPIC scheme. Most of them concerned the offer of places by the participating institutions during the admission process. These occurred largely during the clearing period and reflected a learning process for both the applicants and the participating institutions. All these complaints have been resolved in the interests of the applicants.
The JASPIC Board of Management will undertake a review of this first-year operation of the scheme to see how it may be improved.
Language Fund
20. MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG asked (in Chinese): In view of the proposal in the Policy Address to allocate $300 million for the establishment of a Language Fund, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the total resources committed to improving language education over the past five years; how such funds were expended, for instance, how many additional language teachers have been engaged to improve language education in secondary and primary schools respectively;
(b) whether assessments and researches have been made on language standards of local students in the past five years to find out if such standards were on the decline; and whether it has been established that committing more resources in this respect could actually help improve education on both the Chinese and English languages for students;
(c) of the proposed detailed distribution and usages of the $300 million provided for the Language Fund and the distinction between this provision and those resources committed to effecting improvements on language education in the past; how the Government can ensure that the Language Fund will bring about improvements to the
666 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 language standards of students and that resources will not be wasted; and
(d) whether the Government will consider further increasing the number of qualified language teachers in primary schools now, so that students can develop a solid foundation in language ability starting from primary schools?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the answers to Mr CHEUNG's four-point question are:
(a) Given that the teaching of languages constitutes about 40% of the total curriculum time, a substantial proportion of the recurrent budget for schools and teacher training goes into language education and is not immediately quantifiable. However, specific measures introduced over the past five school years (1988-89 to 1992-93) to improve language education in primary and secondary schools amounted to about $485 million.
Most of these resources has been used in providing additional Chinese language teachers to improve the quality of teaching in secondary schools (involving 359 teachers and $308 million) and additional English teachers for schools which use Chinese as the medium of instruction (involving 139 teachers and $107 million).
Other improvement measures included funding for the Chinese Textbooks Committee to encourage the production of good quality Chinese textbooks and reference books, grants for public sector primary and secondary schools to offer Putonghua as a subject, hiring expatriate English teachers and intensive training of Chinese and English language teachers.
(b) Territory-wide standards of Chinese and English at Primary I to Secondary III levels are monitored annually by the Education Department through the standardized Hong Kong Attainment Tests (HKATs). The HKAT results over the past five years indicated that, on the whole, the standards of primary and junior secondary students in Chinese and English have either risen gradually or remained the same. The results of the Hong Kong Certificate of Education Examination also suggested that there were no significant changes in the overall standard in Chinese and English language for Secondary V students in recent years.
However, as Hong Kong's position as a leading international financial and service centre becomes more prominent, the demand for those who are able to communicate well in Chinese and English has increased tremendously. This development has led to the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 667
general belief that language proficiency, particularly in English, has fallen. We have been advised that some of the more effective ways to improve language standards are to expose students to more language usage and to improve the skills of the language teachers. Additional resources will be needed to initiate these improvements and to test new methodologies.
(c) The Language Fund has yet to be set up and no funding has been allocated. It is therefore premature to speculate on actual allocations and the effectiveness of specific measures to be introduced. We intend to set up a committee comprising language specialists, educationists, businessmen, professionals and other members of the community to advise the Administration on the most efficient and effective use of the Fund. The Fund will enable new initiatives to be taken, problem areas to be studied and temporary gaps in funding to be filled. It will add impetus to the efforts now being made in schools and by the community at large to raise language standards. The Education Department will monitor the approved programmes to ensure that resources are properly used and that the quality of language teaching and learning in schools is enhanced.
(d) Of all the teachers who teach Chinese and English in public sector primary schools, 94% and 59% are, respectively, subject-trained. The Advisory Committee on Teacher Education and Qualifications is reviewing the case and practicalities for increasing the proportion of such subject trained teachers. At the same time, the Provisional Governing Council of the Hong Kong Institute of Education is reviewing its programme for training language teachers, as part of the overall exercise to upgrade the preparation and in-service development of teachers. Meanwhile, refresher courses for language teachers run by the Institute of Language in Education will continue.
Motions
OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ORDINANCE
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the following motion:
"That the draft Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Protection of Wages on Insolvency Ordinance) Order, proposed to be made by the Governor in Council, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the first motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
668 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
The authentic Chinese texts of the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Ordinance and the Deceased's Family Maintenance Ordinance have been carefully examined by the Bilingual Laws Advisory Committee and the LegCo Subcommittee on the Authentic Chinese Texts and have their support. In accordance with subsection (4) of section 4B of the Official Languages Ordinance, draft authentication orders in respect of these texts have been prepared and are being put before this Council for approval this afternoon prior to being submitted to the Governor in Council for authentication. I now move that the first of these orders, that is, the draft Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Protection of Wages on Insolvency Ordinance) Order, proposed to be made by the Governor in Council, be approved.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ORDINANCE
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the following motion:
"That the draft Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Deceased's Family Maintenance Ordinance) Order, proposed to be by the Governor in Council, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the second motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. This seeks approval of the draft Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Deceased's Family Maintenance Ordinance) Order proposed to be made by the Governor in Council.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
BANKRUPTCY ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the following motion:
"That the Bankruptcy (Fees and Percentages) (Amendment) Order 1993, made by the Chief Justice on 11 October 1993, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the first motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Bankruptcy (Fees and Percentages) (Amendment) Order 1993 proposes to amend a number of fees payable to the Official Receiver for his work done as receiver or trustee under the Bankruptcy Ordinance. These fees were last reviewed in 1988 and the proposed increases at around 70% are necessary to maintain the value of the charges against inflation.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 669
The Order rectifies an anomaly under which a fee may be charged by the Official Receiver in relation to the administration of a composition or scheme of arrangement where the monies for such composition or scheme have been put up by the debtor or bankrupt but not where they have been provided by third parties.
The Order also provides for the Official Receiver to be remunerated, at a level considered reasonable by the Court, for his work done in connection with compositions or schemes of arrangement whether or not they are approved. At present, the Official Receiver is permitted to charge only a fixed amount of $500 for all the work that may need to be done in connection with compositions or schemes of arrangements where they are ultimately not approved. The proposed change is intended to address the problem of under-recovery of the costs incurred by the Official Receiver in these cases.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
BANKRUPTCY ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the following motion:
"That the Bankruptcy (Amendment) Rules 1993, made by the Chief Justice on 11 October 1993, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the second motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Under the present Bankruptcy Rules, upon the presentation of a petition either by a debtor or by a creditor, a sum of $10,000 has to be deposited with the Official Receiver to cover the fees and expenses to be incurred by him. The Court may in addition from time to time direct that further sums be deposited in order to ensure proper remuneration for the work undertaken by the Official Receiver.
There is, however, no provision requiring any deposit when a proposal is put forward for a composition or scheme of arrangement out of monies to be provided by a third party. Although the Official Receiver may need to undertake a considerable amount of work, whether or not the proposed composition or scheme is ultimately accepted by the creditors or the Court, he is unable to recover his costs in these cases because there is currently no provision for charging a fee on sums to be provided by third parties. The amendments to Items 1 and 2 of Table B of the Schedule to the Bankruptcy (Fees and Percentages) Order have been proposed to overcome this deficiency. In this context, a new rule is now proposed to require a deposit of $10,000 to be made
670 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
when a composition or scheme of arrangement out of monies to be provided by a third party is put forward by a debtor or bankrupt.
In addition, the opportunity is also taken to amend Rule 62 to raise the deposit to cover the fees of the Official Receiver when appointed as interim receiver from $1,000 to $3,000.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
COMPANIES ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the following motion:
"That the Companies (Fees and Percentages) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 1993, made by the Chief Justice on 20 October 1993, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the third motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Companies (Fees and Percentages) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 1993 proposes to amend a number of fees payable to the Official Receiver under the companies winding-up proceedings. The majority of these fees were last reviewed in 1989 and the increases now proposed, averaging 50%, are needed to preserve the value of these charges as a result of inflation over the intervening period.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
COMPANIES ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the following motion:
"That the Companies (Winding-up) (Amendment) Rules 1993, made by the Chief Justice on 11 October 1993, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the fourth motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Amendment to the Companies (Winding-up) Rules is proposed to require a deposit of $3,000 towards the fees and expenses of the Official Receiver in
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 671
connection with the appointment of a provisional liquidator before a winding-up order is made. This is in line with the proposed requirement for a deposit under Rule 62 of the Bankruptcy Rules relating to the appointment of the Official Receiver as interim receiver in cases of bankruptcy.
The opportunity is also taken to increase the limit within which the Official Receiver may, when acting as liquidator, pay the costs and charges of other persons without taxation. It is proposed that the present ceiling of $200, which has not been revised since 1964, be increased to $1,000.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
First Reading of Bill
RESIDENTIAL CARE HOMES (ELDERLY PERSONS) BILL
Bill read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).
Second Reading of Bills
RESIDENTIAL CARE HOMES (ELDERLY PERSONS) BILL
THE SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to regulate homes established for the residential care of persons who have attained the age of 60 years."
She said: Mr President, I move that the Residential Care Homes (Elderly Persons) Bill be read the Second time.
As in other economically developed countries, the population in Hong Kong is aging. With the growth in the elderly population, the demand for residential care homes for elderly persons has increased. As a result, there has been a considerable expansion in recent years in the number of private homes for the elderly. While private homes make a significant contribution to the care for the elderly, their quality of service is not always satisfactory. There is a need to control the standards of residential care homes in Hong Kong.
The Bill provides for the control of residential care homes for the elderly through a licensing system to be administered by the Director of Social Welfare. Any premises at which more than five elderly persons are habitually received for care will come under this Bill. In other words, all subvented, non-profit-making and private residential care homes will be covered.
672 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
It will be an offence to operate a residential care home without a licence or a certificate of exemption, or to operate a residential care home in contravention of the conditions of a licence or a certificate of exemption. Any person who provides false information in an application, or obstructs inspection also commits an offence.
The Bill makes provision for the Director to issue or renew a certificate of exemption. The homes will have to comply with certain basic requirements before they are exempted. The Director may also impose conditions on a certificate of exemption which will be revoked if the conditions are not fulfilled within a specified period.
In order to ensure the proper management and operation of different types of residential care homes, the draft Residential Care Homes (Elderly Persons) Regulation specifies requirements regarding the registration of health workers, the duties of operators, the duties of home managers, space and staffing, location and design, and safety precautions for residential care homes. Provisions for appeals are made in the draft Residential Care Homes (Elderly Persons) (Appeal Board) Regulation.
The legislation when enacted will prohibit new homes which cannot meet the licensing standards from entering the market.
We consider that the standards to be imposed are the minimum acceptable standards and we expect that most of the existing homes will be able to comply with the conditions imposed under the law. However, should it be necessary, the Administration will put in place alternative arrangements for all residents affected by closure of substandard homes. The Bought Place Scheme will be expanded for this purpose.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
SEWAGE TUNNELS (STATUTORY EASEMENTS) BILL
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 21 April 1993 Question on Second Reading proposed.
MR EDWARD HO: Mr President, the Sewage Tunnels (Statutory Easements) Bill provides for the creation of easements and other rights over land for the purpose of the construction and operation of sewage tunnels.
The sewage tunnels will form an integral part of the Strategic Sewage Disposal Scheme which will contribute significantly in controlling the serious water pollution problem. Under the Strategic Sewage Disposal Scheme,
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 673
construction of a sewage tunnel system will commence in late 1994 to transport sewage to major treatment plants before disposal through an oceanic outfall.
"Sewage tunnels" are defined as underground tunnels and associated underground structures for the transfer of sewage. The sewage tunnels to be constructed will pass through private land.
Under common law the general rule is that the owner of the surface of land also owns everything above and beneath it. The Government cannot construct or operate tunnels under such land unless it has obtained the owner's consent or the right to do so is reserved by the Government when the land is granted or leased to the owner, or an easement is created by legislation to enable the Government to construct or operate the tunnels.
The Bill mainly makes provision for the following aspects:
(a) to establish a procedure which the Government will adopt when sewage tunnels are constructed; and
(b) to establish a procedure for those people who suffer loss or damage as a result of construction of such tunnels to claim compensation.
The Bill was introduced into this Council on 21 April 1993. A Bills Committee of seven Members was formed and commenced scrutiny of the Bill on 23 July 1993. Altogether, we held five meetings, including four with the Administration. As Chairman of the Committee, I would like to take this opportunity to thank my colleagues in the Committee for the time and effort they put in the discussion and the Administration for their prompt response and co-operation.
Mr President, I now come to the major issues considered by the Committee.
The main issue which has been thoroughly discussed is the minimum depth requirement for the sewage tunnels. The Administration has assured the Committee that the sewage tunnels will be laid very deep underground and will be embedded in high quality rock layer. The current design is that the tunnel will be laid at least 30 metres down within the rock layer and about 100 to 150 metres below the surface. As piles for foundation of buildings on the surface run no more than five metres into the rock layer in most cases, they will have no negative impact on the structure of the sewage tunnels or vice versa. Also, given current tunnelling technology, the practical adverse effects which the construction works may have no buildings on the surface should be minimal.
Despite this assurance, the Committee is concerned that the Bill does not impose any obligation on the part of the Government to lay the tunnel at a sufficiently safe distance below the surface. After detailed discussion, it is agreed to include in the Bill a minimum depth requirement of a cover to such
674 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
tunnels or tunnel works of not less than 30 metres of bedrock. I shall move the necessary amendment at the Committee stage.
The objections provision has also been discussed. Under this provision, notice of a plan showing the proposed route of a sewage tunnel, the land affected and the right to object will be published in the Gazette, before the creation of an easement. However, the objection is restricted to people having an interest in land situated on the route of a tunnel. Such objection is further restricted to the route only. The Committee has raised concern over these restrictions. The Administration explains that construction of the tunnel will only affect the abovementioned category of people and any other person who wishes to express views on the plan, not related to the creation of easements, can do so through other available channels. As regards the scope of the objection, the Administration clarifies that the intention is that objection may be made against the alignment as well as the depth of the proposed tunnel. Reference to both route and depth will be added to the Bill. The Committee is satisfied with the explanation. The amendment will be moved by the Administration at the Committee stage. The Administration has also assured the Committee that all reasonable requests for information from prospective objectors will be entertained and due publicity will be given when a plan is gazetted.
The Committee has also considered in some detail the question of compensation. It is noted that any person who has suffered loss or damage to land, including any diminution in the value of the land, or property situated on land as a result of the creation of rights can claim compensation. It is also confirmed that under the exceptional circumstances where the route of a tunnel so constructed deviated from that in the original plan, the compensation provision will equally apply. However, the Committee considers that the wording should be amended to remove any doubt. The Administration will move the relevant amendment at the Committee stage to clarify this point.
The Committee considers that the time limit of 12 months for filing claims for compensation is too short, taking into account similar provisions in other Ordinances and the detailed information to be included in the claims. After some discussion, the Administration agrees to provide more flexibility and to amend the relevant clause to the effect that the Lands Tribunal should have the discretion to extend the claims period for a further five years from the time when the right to compensation first arises. The Committee is not entirely satisfied as the extension to the time limit will be subject to an application process and the approval of the Lands Tribunal. However, as there will be sufficient legal safeguard, through the stipulation of a minimum depth requirement, that the proposed sewage tunnels will be laid very deep underground and in view of current engineering knowledge and experience, tunnel works should cause little or no damage to the surface environment. Hence it is unlikely that the question of compensation will arise. On this basis, the Committee accepts the amendment which will be moved by the Administration at the Committee stage.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 675
There is also concern that the procedure to be adopted by the Crown to notify affected individuals of its intention to exercise rights over their land has not been clearly stated in the Bill. In response, the Administration will move an amendment for clarification at the Committee stage.
Given the Administration's assurance that all vertical shafts will be constructed on Crown land and all tunnel works will be carried out underground, the Committee has found it hard to visualize any situation in which the exercise of the Crown's rights may be obstructed but accepted the Administration's explanation that it would be necessary to provide for all possible scenarios.
Finally, the Committee has expressed concern over the wide powers given to the Building Authority to refuse or withdraw approval to any building works which are considered incompatible with sewage tunnel works. It is not clear whether a claim for compensation can be filed for loss sustained as a result of the decision of the Building Authority. To address this concern, the Administration will move an amendment to confirm that compensation is payable under such circumstances.
Apart from the amendments mentioned above, the Committee has agreed with the Administration on other amendments which are purely technical but are considered necessary for improving the drafting of the relevant provisions. These amendments will also be moved by the Administration at the Committee stage.
With these remarks, I support the Bill.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I am grateful to the Honourable Edward HO, the Chairman of the Bills Committee to Study the Sewage Tunnels (Statutory Easements) Bill, and to other Members of the Committee for their careful and detailed consideration of this legislation.
In the course of their deliberations on the Bill, a number of issues and concerns were raised by the Bills Committee. The issues were mainly related to the minimum depth requirement for the proposed sewage tunnels and to compensation claims and notification procedures. I will cover these aspects one by one; and to address the concerns of the Bills Committee, I will also move several amendments during the Committee stage.
Minimum depth requirement
As regards the depth of sewage tunnels, it has always been the Administration's intention that these tunnels should be laid very deep underground. A minimum depth was not originally specified in the Bill mainly to allow flexibility in the design of the tunnels. Having taken on board the Bills
676 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
Committee's suggestion that our intention should be more clearly defined in legislative terms, we agree that the rights to be created under the Bill to allow the construction of tunnels should only be exercisable where there will be a cover to the tunnels of not less than 30 m of bedrock.
Compensation claims
As regards the compensation claims period, under clause 12(2) of the Bill, claims may be made within 12 months of the loss or, in certain circumstances, of its discovery. Some Members of the Bills Committee were doubtful as to whether this period would be sufficient in all cases. The Administration has explained that it would not be practical to extend the claims period for too long as difficulties in establishing evidence for the verification of claims would increase with the passage of time. To allow for more flexibility in the procedures, however, we now propose that while the claims period should remain at 12 months, extension of up to five years at the discretion of the Lands Tribunal should be provided for. This would bring the clause in line with similar provisions in, for example, the Roads (Works, Use and Compensation) Ordinance.
I should nonetheless reiterate that, with existing engineering knowledge, we believe that little loss or damage will result from the tunnel works. We expect that compensation claims will arise only under very rare circumstances therefore.
Notification procedures
It is against this background that we should approach the question of how affected land owners should be notified of the Government's intention to create rights under the Bill. Clause 4 now provides that the notice of draft sewage tunnel plans should be gazetted. The public may inspect these plans which will show, and identify the land situated on, the route of the tunnels. A suggestion was made that all individual owners affected by the exercise of rights should be served separate notices. But this would be difficult not only because of the very large number of land owners likely to be involved, but also because of the practical problems in tracking them all down. We do recognize the importance of adequate publicity however. So the gazetting of plans will be accompanied by suitable publicity through the media.
Bills Committee Members have suggested that the Administration should provide all necessary information to prospective objectors. I can confirm that the Administration will entertain all reasonable requests for information from prospective objectors to the fullest extent possible.
There are other amendments which we have agreed with the Bills Committee to clarify the legislative intent. For instance, the wording of clause 14 on obstruction to the exercise of rights under the Bill will be recast. Clause
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 677
5(1) will also be amended to specify that objections may be made to the depth as well as route of the tunnels. I will elaborate during the Committee stage.
Mr President, this legislation is necessary to facilitate the construction of sewage tunnels as part of the long-term strategy for sewage disposal. The present proposals take into account professional views and have been agreed with the Bills Committee.
Thank you, Mr President.
Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.
Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
COMPANIES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1993
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 17 February 1993 Question on Second Reading proposed.
DR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Bill before us involves proposals on a number of different issues covered by the Companies Ordinance. The more significant ones include adjusting the due date for private companies to file annual returns with the Companies Registry, providing for an index of directorship of listed companies, strengthening the special procedures for voluntary winding-up of companies, and introducing a degree of flexibility for companies limited by guarantee.
The Bills Committee scrutinizing the Bill has received a number of submissions in which very useful suggestions were put forth. Members are grateful for these suggestions, many of which have been accepted by the Administration. The positive response from the Administration is also warmly appreciated.
As the Administration will highlight at the Committee stage the amendments proposed by the Bills Committee, I shall concentrate on the other major issues that Members have considered in the course of deliberation.
The Bills Committee was particularly concerned about the proposal for setting up a limited index of directorship of listed companies. Members noted that the existing section 158C, which was introduced in 1984, already requires the Registrar of Companies to keep and maintain a comprehensive index of company directors for public inspection as from a date to be appointed by the
678 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
Governor. Members were of the view that this existing provision should be brought into operation as soon as possible.
The Administration explained that the introduction of a comprehensive index of company directors had been reviewed when the proposed amendments in the Bill were first considered. But the resources needed for setting up and maintaining this comprehensive index were beyond what could reasonably be obtained in the near future. The Standing Committee on Company Law Reform had therefore concluded that a limited index should be accepted as an interim measure, and that a comprehensive index should be provided when resources became available. The Administration assured Members that the implementation of a comprehensive index has to date remained a long term objective.
Members were informed that the target date for setting up the limited index is mid 1994, and that the index will be open to the public as soon as it is completed. Members were anxious that the index of directors should be made available at the earliest possible date. They urged the Administration to ensure timely completion of the limited index, and also to aim at an early introduction of the comprehensive index.
Another issue that the Bills Committee has given careful consideration to is the proposal concerning the appointment of provisional liquidators under section 228A, which provides for voluntary winding-up of a company in case of its inability to continue business. Members have received representation that the appointment of provisional liquidators should not be restricted to accountants or solicitors, as there are members of other professions who have sufficient knowledge, qualification and experience to undertake the work.
The Bills Committee has examined the reasons for restricting eligibility for appointment of provisional liquidators. As advised by the Administration, section 228A deals with emergency situations where the directors can initiate voluntary winding-up of a company by a speedy process of statutory declaration. A provisional liquidator is appointed in such circumstances as temporary custodian of the company's property, the role of which is different from that of a liquidator. It is the job of a provisional liquidator to preserve the assets and, as far as possible, the status of the company until the members and creditors have decided whether it ought to be wound up and who should be appointed its liquidator. The provisional liquidator has to carry out a financial investigation of the company to discover all the assets he is charged to protect. He will have to consider the rescue bids and the best possible way to protect the value of the assets. He may in certain circumstances have to carry on the business of the company. This is thus a very specialized task which needs the degree of experience, competence and trust usually associated with members of the accountancy and legal professions. In considering the suitability for appointment as provisional liquidator, it would be necessary to take into account not only the knowledge, qualification and experience of the members of these professions, but also their code of practice, ethical rules and disciplinary
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 679
proceedings to ensure that a high standard of professional ethics is maintained among the members.
Members agreed that the proposed restriction on appointment of provisional liquidator is appropriate at this stage. If there are other professions that can demonstrate at a later date that they are up to the full requirements for the task, amendment to the relevant provision can be considered.
With these remarks, Mr President, I support this Bill subject to the amendments to be moved at the Committee stage.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, I am most grateful to Dr HUANG Chen-ya and the Bills Committee for their careful scrutiny of the Bill and for their helpful suggestions for improvements.
The new provisions inserted into the Companies Ordinance by this Bill will provide for a more sensible timetable for submission of annual returns by private companies and more pragmatic voting arrangements for companies limited by guarantee, as well as providing the necessary framework to enable the Registrar of Companies to compile an index of the directorships held by directors of listed companies. In addition, the Bill seeks to tighten up the special procedure for voluntary windings-up under section 228A of the Companies Ordinance.
Under the new arrangements for the submission of annual returns, private companies will no longer be required to submit their returns to the Registrar within 42 days of the company's annual general meeting. Instead, they will be allowed 42 days from the date of the anniversary of the company's incorporation. This will help to alleviate the problems associated with the current uneven flow of annual returns, which flood the Registry at the beginning of each calendar year following the annual round of AGMs, most of which are held at the end of the previous year. We have taken on board the concerns expressed by the Hong Kong Society of Accountants and others about the original proposal to shorten the period for submission of returns for private companies from 42 days to 28 days. We appreciate that private companies may have directors who spend a good deal of their time outside of Kong Kong and that this might make it difficult for such companies to complete and submit their annual returns within a 28-day period. Therefore, I will be moving an amendment to the Bill at Committee stage to extend the period available to private companies under the new arrangements to 42 days.
In relation to the proposed directors' index, as Members of the Bills Committee pointed out, directors who do not hold a Hong Kong identity card will not, under the published Bill, be required to disclose any alternative form of identification. We have thus agreed with the Committee to require company directors who do not possess Hong Kong identity cards to provide the Registrar with information about their passport numbers, although it is acknowledged that
680 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
such information may not be as effective a form of identification as an ID number. Further particulars will also be sought from company secretaries to bring the requirements on them more into line with the requirements on directors. These points will be introduced as amendments at the Committee stage.
Members of the Committee expressed the wish that the proposed index should become operational as soon as possible. The Bill provides for existing listed companies to submit details of their directors within three months of the commencement of the relevant provisions. We anticipate therefore that, allowing time for compilation of the data, the index should be in operation and available for public inspection by the autumn of 1994.
Members of the Committee also wished to see the early implementation of the comprehensive index of all the directorships of directors of both public and private companies, as provided for under section 158C of the Companies Ordinance, the setting up of which has remained our long-term objective. Given that there are now over 400 000 private companies incorporated under the Ordinance, the Council will appreciate that this project is likely to require substantial additional resources. The Registrar of Companies should be in a position to quantify this requirement more precisely once he has the practical experience of the index of directors of listed companies to refer to. Nevertheless, I take this opportunity to reconfirm our intention to implement the comprehensive index in the course of the next few years, in the light of the experience gained from the index of directors of listed companies. We are currently exploring possibilities for obtaining the necessary resources for this project.
Regarding the provisions relating to the special procedure for voluntary windings-up, the Bills Committee drew our attention to the potential practical difficulties of compliance with the requirement to secure the signatures of a majority of directors on a single statutory declaration before a liquidation under section 228A of the Ordinance may commence. The Committee pointed out that many directors are regularly carrying on business overseas. We agreed therefore that for the purpose of a winding up application under section 228A, we will accept separate written statements signed by the directors recording the necessary resolution and verified by one single declaration submitted by one of the directors. This latter requirement is essential, given that the declaration is the instrument which triggers the liquidation. I shall put the position beyond doubt through an amendment to be moved at Committee stage. Certain other minor amendments to these provisions will also be moved to accommodate technical and clarificatory points raised by the Law Society.
We have been in dialogue with the Institute of Chartered Secretaries and Administrators in Hong Kong (ICSA), which had sought to have chartered secretaries included among professionals qualified for appointment as provisional liquidators under section 228A. While neither the Administration nor the Bills Committee felt that it would be appropriate to recognize members
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 681
of the ICSA for this limited purpose at present, we have made it known that we remain open-minded for the future, and that we would look upon the implementation by the Hong Kong ICSA of its proposals to enhance its independence and its ability to regulate its members as a positive step in this regard.
Mr President, with these remarks, I recommend the Bill to Members. Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.
Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
Committee stage of Bills
Council went into Committee.
SEWAGE TUNNELS (STATUTORY EASEMENTS) BILL
Clauses 1 to 4, 6, 7 and 9 were agreed to.
Clauses 5, 8 and 11 to 15
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Chairman, I move that the clauses specified be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.
I move that clause 5(1) be amended. The intention is that any person who has an estate or interest registered in the Land Registry in any land situated on the route of a proposed tunnel may object to the depth as well as the route of the tunnel. Clause 5(1) should be amended to include reference to "depth" in the provision.
I move that clauses 8(1) and 12(2), (5), (6), (7), (8) and (9) be amended.
The amendment is required as the duties of the Director of Buildings and Lands under these clauses have been taken over by the Director of Lands following the reorganization of the Buildings and Lands Department.
I move that clause 11(5) be amended.
682 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
Clause 11 provides for procedures for the rectification of sewage tunnel plans to accord with the route of a tunnel as constructed. The amendment is proposed to clarify that the validation provision at clause 11(5) should not prejudice the right to compensation under clause 12.
I move that a new subclause be added to clause 12.
Under clause 12(1), the Crown is liable to pay compensation to any person who has suffered loss or damage to land as a result of the creation of rights under the Bill. The proposed addition of subclause (1A) is to put beyond doubt that the liability extends to loss or damage as a result of any decision of the Building Authority to refuse or withdraw or impose conditions on approval of building plans under the proposed section 17A of the Buildings Ordinance.
I move that clause 14 be amended.
Clause 14 provides that any person who, having been notified of the Crown's intention to exercise rights created under the Bill, wilfully obstructs the exercise of such rights commits an offence. The amendment seeks to clarify the notification procedures.
I move that clause 15 be amended.
The amendment is to add a definition of "proposed sewage tunnel works" to the proposed section 17A of the Buildings Ordinance so as to clarify the intention.
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Proposed amendments
Clause 5
That clause 5(1) be amended, by adding "or depth or both" after "route" where it secondly appears.
Clause 8
That clause 8(1) be amended, by deleting "Director of Buildings and Lands" where it twice appears and substituting "Director of Lands".
Clause 11
That clause 11(5) be amended, by deleting "Where" and substituting "Subject to section 12, where".
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 683 Clause 12
That clause 12 be amended —
(a) by adding -
"(1A) For the avoidance of doubt, "loss or damage as a result of the creation of rights under this Ordinance" in subsection (1) includes, where such rights have been created, any loss or damage as a result of a decision of the Building Authority under section 17A of the Buildings Ordinance (Cap. 123).".
(b) in subclauses (2), (5), (6), (7), (8) and (9), by deleting "Director of Buildings and Lands" and substituting "Director of Lands".
Clause 13
That clause 13 be amended, by deleting the clause.
Clause 14
That clause 14 be amended, by deleting the clause and substituting —
"14. Offence to obstruct exercise
of right of Crown
(1) Any person who, having been given notice by the Crown of its intention to exercise rights created under section 10 in respect of any land, wilfully obstructs or interferes with the lawful exercise of those rights at any time specified in the notice commits an offence and is liable to a fine of $10,000 and to imprisonment for 6 months.
(2) For the purpose of subsection (1) "notice"（通知）means written notice given -
(a) not less than 1 day before the earliest time specified in the
notice;
(b) to the defendant personally.
684 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed as imposing on the Crown an obligation to give notice under this section prior to the exercise of any of the rights created under section 10.".
Clause 15
That clause 15 be amended, by deleting the proposed section 17A(2) of the Buildings Ordinance (Cap. 123) and substituting —
"(2) In this section -
"proposed sewage tunnel works" means sewage tunnel works likely to be undertaken in connection with a proposed sewage tunnel referred to in a notice published in the Gazette pursuant to section 4 of the Sewage Tunnels (Statutory Easements) Ordinance ( of 1993);
"sewage tunnel works" has the same meaning as "tunnel works" in the Sewage Tunnels (Statutory Easements) Ordinance ( of 1993).".
Question on the amendments proposed, put and agreed to.
Question on clause 5, 8 and 11 to 15, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.
Clause 10
MR EDWARD HO: Mr Chairman, I move that clause 10 of the Sewage Tunnels (Statutory Easements) Bill be amended as set out under my name in the paper circulated to Members.
As mentioned in my speech at the resumption of the Second Reading debate, the proposed amendment will ensure that the sewage tunnels are laid at a sufficiently safe distance below the surface by specifying a minimum depth requirement of 30 metres of bedrock. Coupled with current tunnelling technology, tunnel works should therefore have no negative impact on the surface environment.
My colleague, Mr Ronald ARCULLI, shares my view on this amendment. Mr Chairman, I beg to move.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 685 Proposed amendment
Clause 10
That clause 10 be amended, by adding —
"(1A) Rights shall only be exercisable under subsection (1) where there is a cover to the sewage tunnel or tunnel works, as the case may be, of not less than 30 metres of bedrock.".
Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.
Question on clause 10, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.
New clause 12A Claims out of time
New clause 14A Ordinances under which
matters may be submitted
to the Tribunal for
determination
Clauses read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 46(6).
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS Mr Chairman, I move that new clauses 12A and 14A as set out in the paper circulated to Members be read the Second time.
New clause 12A provides an addition to seek that upon application to the Lands Tribunal the normal period of 12 months for making compensation claims may be extended by a period of up to five years at the discretion of the Lands Tribunal.
I move that clause 13 be deleted and a new clause 14A be added as set out in the paper.
Clause 13 gives jurisdiction to the Lands Tribunal to determine compensation by reference to section 11(1) of the Lands Tribunal Ordinance (Cap. 17). We are advised that the same effect will be achieved by including the Bill in the schedule of Ordinances under which matters may be submitted to the Lands Tribunal for determination under the Lands Tribunal Ordinance. The proposed amendments are to give effect to the latter approach, which is simpler and more appropriate.
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
686 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 Question on the Second Reading of the clauses proposed, put and agreed to. Clauses read the Second time.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Chairman, I move that new clauses 12A and 14A be added to the Bill.
Proposed additions
New clause 12
That the Bill be amended, by adding —
"12A. Claims out of time
(1) Subject to subsection (2), if notice of a claim is not delivered to the Director of Lands before the expiration of the period specified in section 12(2) in respect of that matter, the right to claim compensation for that matter shall be barred.
(2) The period referred to in subsection (1) may, upon application made to the Lands Tribunal either before or after the expiry of that period, be extended in accordance with this section.
(3) Notice of an application under subsection (2) shall be given to the Director of Lands by the applicant.
(4) The Lands Tribunal may extend the period within which notice of a claim must be delivered to the Director of Lands if it considers that the delay in delivering notice of the claim was occasioned by mistake of fact or mistake of any matter of law (other than the relevant provision in section 12(2) or by any other reasonable cause or that the Crown is not materially prejudiced in the conduct of its case or otherwise by the delay.
(5) An extension may be granted by the Lands Tribunal under subsection (4) with or without conditions for such period as it thinks fit but not in any case exceeding 5 years from the expiration of the period referred to in subsection (1).".
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 687 New clause 14
That the Bill be amended, by adding before section 15 —
"Lands Tribunal Ordinance
14A. Ordinances under which
matters may be submitted
to the Tribunal for
determination
The Schedule to the Lands Tribunal Ordinance (Cap. 17) is amended by adding -
" of 1993. Sewage Tunnels (Statutory Easements) Ordinance.".".
Question on the addition of the new clauses proposed, put and agreed to.
COMPANIES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1993
Clauses 1 to 4, 6 to 10, 12, 13, 15 to 17, 19, 20 and 24 were agreed to. Clauses 5, 11, 14, 18 and 21 to 23
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr Chairman, I move that the clauses specified be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.
Clause 5 is amended to extend the period during which a private company may file its annual return from within 28 days after the most recent anniversary of the company's date of incorporation to within 42 days. Other related consequential amendments are also made to this clause and to clause 22.
Clause 11 is amended to provide that where a director or company secretary does not hold a Hong Kong identity card, he will be required to give the number and issuing country of any passport he may hold. The clause as amended also requires company secretaries to supply additional personal particulars thus bringing the requirements on directors and secretaries more into line with one another. A new clause 11(d) is added to make it an offence punishable by a fine if a listed company fails to file the requisite information on its directors within three months after the commencement of the relevant provisions. This should ensure that data on which the index will be based is made available in good time. Consequential amendments are also made to the Fifth Schedule under clause 21.
Clause 18 is amended to require information about directors and company secretaries of overseas companies registered under Part XI of the Companies
688 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
Ordinance similar to that required in relation to directors and secretaries of locally incorporated companies under clause 11. This will put the requirements for overseas companies on an even footing with those for locally incorporated companies.
Clause 14 is amended by adding a new sub-clause to clarify that there can be separate written statements by directors recording their resolution at a meeting that the company cannot, by reason of its liabilities, continue in business and that they wish to put the company into liquidation under section 228A. The statutory declaration verifying these written statements must however be made by one of the directors and delivered to the Registrar. The clause is further amended by adding a requirement that evidence of the appointment of a provisional liquidator be delivered to the Registrar at the time the statutory declaration is delivered. This is to ensure timely appointment of the provisional liquidator. Failure to comply with this requirement, or failure to convene meetings of the company and the creditors of the company, will be made an offence liable to a fine under another amendment to the clause. Consequential amendments are also made to clause 23.
The proposed amendment to clause 14(f) is to put it beyond doubt that the provisional liquidator will remain in office until a meeting of creditors of the company is convened or if that meeting is adjourned, until any adjourned meeting is resumed. Clause 14(g) is a technical amendment proposed by the Law Society for the purposes of clarification.
Mr Chairman, I beg to move.
Proposed amendments
Clause 5
That clause 5 be amended —
(a) in the proposed section 109(1A), by deleting "28" and substituting "42".
(b) in the proposed section 109(1B)(a) and (b), by deleting "28" and substituting "42".
Clause 11
That clause 11 be amended —
(a) in paragraph (a), in the proposed section 158(2)(a), by adding "or, in the absence of such number, the number and issuing country of any passport held by him" after "(if any)".
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 689 (b) in paragraph (b) -
(i) in the proposed section 158(2A)(e), by adding "or, in the absence of such number, the number and issuing country of any passport
held by him" after "(if any)"; and
(ii) by deleting "and" at the end.
(c) by adding -
"(ba) by repealing subsection (3)(a) and substituting -
"(a) in the case of an individual, his present forename and
surname and any former forename or surname (including,
in the case of a Chinese secretary, the Chinese characters
for any such forename or surname they are used by such
secretary), any alias, his usual residential address, his
nationality and the number of his identity card (if any) or,
in the absence of such number, the number and issuing
country of any passport held by him; and";".
(d) in paragraph (c), by deleting the full stop at the end and substituting "; and". (e) by adding -
"(d) in subsection (8) by repealing "(3), (4)" and substituting "(2A), (3), (4), (4A)".".
Clause 14
That clause 14 be amended —
(a) by adding before paragraph (a) -
"(aa) in subsection (1) by repealing "make (at a meeting of the directors), and deliver to the Registrar, a statutory declaration" and
substituting "resolve at a meeting of the directors and deliver to the
Registrar a statutory declaration by one of the directors verifying
written statements signed by the directors recording the
resolution";".
690 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 (b) by adding -
"(ba) in subsection (3) -
(i) by repealing "the directors" where it first occurs and
substituting "a director"; and
(ii) in paragraph (b) by adding "and deliver evidence of the
appointment to the Registrar with the statutory declaration"
after "winding up";".
(c) in paragraph (c), by adding before the proposed section 228A(3A) -
"(3AA) A director who fails to company with subsection (3)(b)
or (c) shall be liable to a fine.".
(d) by deleting paragraph (f)(i) and substituting -
"(i) in paragraph (a) by repealing "for 28 days or such longer period as the Official Receiver" and substituting "until a meeting of
creditors of the company summoned under subsection (3)(c) or,
if that meeting is adjourned, any adjourned meeting,"; and".
(e) in paragraph (g), in the proposed section 228A(7A), by deleting "ordinary".
Clause 18
That clause 18 be amended —
(a) in paragraph (a) -
(i) in the proposed section 333(2)(a)(i), by deleting "and his nationality" and substituting ", his nationality and the number of his identity card (if any) or, in the absence of such number, the
number and issuing country of any passport held by him";
(ii) in the proposed section 333(2)(aa)(iv), by deleting "and" at the end;
(iii) by adding after the proposed section 333(2)(aa)(iv) -
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 691
"(iva) the number of his identity card (if any) or, in the absence of
such number, the number and issuing country of any
passport held by him; and"; and
(iv) by deleting "and" at the end.
(b) by adding -
"(aa) by repealing subsection (2)(b)(i) and substituting -
"(i) in the case of an individual, his present forename
and surname and any former forename or surname
(including, in the case of a Chinese secretary, the
Chinese characters for any such forename or
surname if they are used by such secretary), any
alias, his usual residential address, his nationality
and the number of his identity card (if any) or, in
the absence of such number, the number and issuing
country of any passport held by him; and";".
(c) in paragraph (b) by deleting the full stop at the end and substituting "; and". (d) by adding -
"(c) in subsection (4) by adding -
"(ca) the expression "identity card" has the meaning assigned
to it by section 158(10)(c);".".
Clause 21
That clause 21(3) be amended —
(a) in paragraph (b), in the proposed paragraphs 7 and 7A, by adding, as the last column -
692 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 "
Number and
Issuing
Country
of any passport
(Note 16A)
".
(b) by adding -
"(ba) by repealing paragraph 8 and substituting -
"8. Particulars of the secretary of the
company at the date of the return
Name,
any alias and
nationality (Notes 12, 13 and 17)
Address
(Notes 17
and 18)
Hong Kong
Identity
Card
number,
if any
(Note 16)
Number
And
Issuing
Country
of any
passport
(Note 16A)
"
(c) in paragraph (c), by deleting "and" at the end.
(d) in paragraph (d), by deleting the full stop at the end and substituting a semicolon.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 693 (e) by adding -
"(e) in the Notes -
(i) in Note 12 -
(A) by adding "or secretary" after "a Chinese
director"; and
(B) by adding "or secretaries, as the case may be"
after "register of directors";
(ii) in Note 13 -
(A) by adding "or secretary" after "a Chinese
director"; and
(B) by adding "or secretaries, as the case may be"
after "register of directors"; and
(iii) by adding -
"16A. If the director or secretary has given
the number of a Hong Kong identity card held by
him, there is no need to give this information.".".
Clause 21
That clause 21(4) be amended, in the proposed Part IIA —
(a) in paragraph 9, by adding, as the last column -
"
Number and
Issuing
Country
of any passport
(Note 15A)
".
694 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 (b) by repealing paragraph 10 and substituting -
"10. Particulars of the secretary of the company
at the date of this return.
Name,
Any alias
and nationality (Notes 12,
13 and 16)
(c) in the Notes -
Address
(Notes 16
and 17)
Hong Kong
Identity
Card
number,
if any
(Note 15)
Number
And
Issuing
Country
of any
passport
(Note 15A)
"; and
(i) in Note 12 -
(A) by adding "or secretary" after "a director"; and
(B) by adding "or secretaries, as the case may be" after "register of directors";
(ii) in Note 13 -
(A) by adding "or secretary" after "a Chinese director"; and
(B) by adding "or secretaries, as the case may be" after "register of directors"; and
(iii) by adding -
"15A. If the director or secretary has given the number of a Hong Kong identity card, there is no need to give this information.".
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 695 Clause 21
That clause 21(5) be amended —
(a) in paragraph (a), in the proposed paragraph 4 of Part III, by adding, as the last 2 columns -
"
Hong Kong
identity card
number, if
any (Note 8)
Number and
Issuing
Country of
any passport
(Note 8A)
".
(b) by deleting paragraphs (b), (c), (d) and (e) and substituting - "(b) by repealing paragraph 5 and substituting -
"5. Particulars of the secretary of the company at the date of this return
Name,
any alias and nationality (Notes 5, 6 and 9)
Address
(Notes 9
and 10)
Hong Kong
Identity Card
number,
if any
(Note 8)
Number
And Issuing
Country
of any
passport
(Note 8A)
"; and
696 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 (c) by repealing Note 8 and substituting -
"8. (a) If the director or secretary has been issued with an identity card in Hong Kong under the provisions of the Registration
of Persons Ordinance (Cap 177), the number of the identity
card should be given.
(b) If this column does not apply, please insert "not
applicable".
8A. If the director or secretary has given the number of a Hong Kong identity card held by him, there is no need to give this
information.".".
Clause 22
That clause 22 be amended, in the proposed paragraph (e)(i) and (ii), by deleting "28" and substituting "42".
Clause 23
That clause 23(b) be amended, by adding before the proposed entry relating to section 228A(4B) -
"228A(3AA) (relating
to subsection (3)(b))
228A(3AA) (relating
to subsection (3)(c))
Director failing to appoint a
provisional
liquidator or deliver evidence of appointment
Director failing to cause
meetings of the company or
creditors to be summoned
Summary $25,000 Summary $25,000 -".
Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.
Question on clauses 5, 11, 14, 18 and 21 to 23, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to. Council then resumed.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 697 Third Reading of Bills
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL reported that the
SEWAGE TUNNELS (STATUTORY EASEMENTS) BILL and
COMPANIES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1993
had passed through Committee with amendments. He moved the Third Reading of the Bills.
Question on the Third Reading of the Bills proposed, put and agreed to. Bills read the Third time and passed.
Members' motions
PRESIDENT: I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to time limits on speeches for the motion debates and Members were informed by circular on 29 October. The mover of the motion will have 15 minutes for his speech including his reply; other Members will have seven minutes for their speeches. Under Standing Order 27A, I am required to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue his speech.
INTERPRETATION AND GENERAL CLAUSES ORDINANCE MR LEE WING-TAT moved the following motion:
"That in relation to the Shipping and Port Control (Amendment) Regulation 1993 published as Legal Notice No. 309 of 1993 and laid on the table of the Legislative Council on 6 October 1993, the period referred to in section 34(2) of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance for amending subsidiary legislation be extended under section 34(4) of that Ordinance until 24 November 1993."
MR LEE WING-TAT: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. The motion seeks to extend under section 34(4) of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance until 24 November 1993 the period referred to in the Shipping and Port Control (Amendment) Regulation 1993. The said Regulation involves the designation of restricted areas so that, except with the permission of the Director of Marine, no vessel with superstructure exceeding certain height limits shall enter any area in the waters adjacent to the Tsing Tsuen, Tsing Yi and Ap Li Chau Bridges.
698 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
In order to minimize the effects of the heights restrictions on vessels currently operating in the Rambler Channel using the Tsing Yi South Bridge and the Tsing Tsuen North Bridge, the Administration proposes to adopt a permit system to allow vessels of up to 20 m to enter the restricted area through the Tsing Tsuen North Bridge.
Members of the Subcommittee studying the Regulation have reservations on the fairness and effectiveness of the proposed permit system where it is to be operated at the discretion of the Director of the Marine. The Subcommittee will need more time to clarify all the related issues with the Administration. Any decision of the Subcommittee will be subject to consultation with the House Committee.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
EMPLOYEES' COMPENSATION
MR LAU CHIN-SHEK moved the following motion:
"That this Council urges the Government to set up a central compensation fund for employees, so as to give better protection to industrial accident victims."
MR LAU CHIN-SHEK (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Improving the employees compensation system
Today's motion is that this Council urges the Government to set up a central body and take over the management of employees compensation which includes the collection and safekeeping of the insurance premiums and the disbursement of compensation. At present, employees compensation schemes are separately managed by private insurance companies.
Many Members may ask: Since employees compensation in Hong Kong has always been the responsibility of private companies, why are you "abruptly" initiating centralization? To answer this question, we must know the purpose of the employees compensation system and find out how the existing arrangements are falling short of it. Then, we must get to the heart of the problem and deal with it effectively. I think that management, be it central or private, is just a means to an end. I hope that today's debate will start off with a discussion of "how to improve the employees compensation system effectively". I hope that it will not become an ideological debate of which is better: centralization or privatization.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 699 Failure to attach importance to industrial safety
Of course, workers file claims for compensation only when they are victims of industrial accidents. I am particularly sensitive to any mention of an accident. Every year, Hong Kong sees more than 200 000 accidents in which the victims end up in emergency wards. Most of them are industrial accidents which number over 100 000. But we pay far less attention to industrial accidents than we do to traffic accidents. This, I believe, is evident from the lopsided coverage that the electronic media give to traffic accidents, which number just over 20 000 a year. What disturbs me even more is that while Hong Kong every year sees more than 200 fatalities from occupational accidents and about 100 numbers and man-slaughters, there is clearly more interest in homicides than in deaths from industrial accidents.
There is no doubt at all that better industrial safety should be our first and foremost concern. If we fail to attach importance to industrial safety and the safety of employees, no matter how high the compensation is, it serves no meaningful purpose other than compensating the worker for the loss of his blood and life.
Linking insurance premiums to safety records
Hong Kong's employees compensation system has nothing at all to do with industrial safety. This, I think, is the greatest flaw of the existing system.
A very important principle of the environmental policy is "the polluter pays." The purpose is not only to penalize polluters but also to provide an incentive to keep the environment clean. Similarly, in some foreign countries, the purpose of requiring employers to take out insurance for employees is not simply to have a pool of money for paying out compensation. The more important purpose, where "the rate of the insurance premium is in inverse proportion to the employer's safety record", is to encourage employers to improve industrial safety. The truth is that insurance premium rates linked to safety records are an effective market mechanism that encourages employers to take active steps to prevent industrial accidents.
Insurance companies do not care about safety
Regrettably, Hong Kong's private insurance companies, when setting employee insurance premium rates, think only in terms of making a profit and earning a commission. It never occurs to them to link insurance premium rates to employers' safety records. Some insurance companies sell employee insurance to their big clients by way of doing them a favour. These companies pay even less attention to the safety records of the insured.
Of course, one cannot blame the insurance companies and insurance agents for wanting to make a profit and earn a commission. But their failure to encourage better industrial safety and their failure to help to bring about a
700 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
reduction in industrial accidents cause a wasting of human resources. There is a "social cost" to this and it has to be borne by the community as a whole.
Therefore, I believe that only a central non-profit-making body can use insurance premium rates effectively as a mechanism for promoting industrial safety, which is our first and foremost objective.
Injured employees should receive adequate compensation
Industrial accidents affect their victims differently. Some victims suffer minor injuries. Some require hospitalization. Some are incapacitated temporarily. Some are partially or totally incapacitated for life. Some will have to change their jobs. Some will never be able to work again. Some lose their limbs. Some even become vegetables. Of course, some simply die.
Mr President, of course, injured employees and the surviving families of deceased victims must receive adequate and instant compensation. This should be the clearly stated goal of the employees compensation system. Regrettably, the existing system is far from being satisfactory.
Where employers buy employee insurance from private insurance companies of their choice, if often happens that some employees are not covered or the insurance coverage is not adequate. Sometimes, insurance companies refuse to sell employee insurance (particularly to small employers). For these reasons, some injured employees fail to receive adequate compensation or fail to receive it until claims are finally settled in time-consuming processes.
A central body will effectively take care of the matter of insurance coverage for all employees, including the matter of insurance coverage for the self-employed. It will have effective access to such information as how many employees there are in a particular company and how much a particular employee's salary is. It will thus be able to figure out accurately how much insurance premium each employer must pay. All employees will then be covered by the employees insurance system.
Improving the claim processing procedure
It must be ensured that injured employees are paid adequate compensation. Prompt disbursement is also very important. This refers particularly to the payment of wages and medical expenses and the payment of compensation to the surviving families of deceased victims.
Now, when an employee injured in an accident files a claim for compensation, he has to follow a very complex procedure. In addition, he needs to have the co-operation of his employer and the insurance company. Many problems often arise during the process. For instance, the employer may deny that the employee was injured in an industrial accident or the insurance company may drag its feet in arriving at a compensation figure. The employee
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993 701
in such cases must wait a long time before receiving the compensation. Sometimes, he will have to take his claim to the court before it can be settled.
The claim processing procedure must be improved. One effective way to do so is to let a central compensation body take care of the payment of compensation. If an employee's claim is legitimate, the compensation should be paid right away. This will be very good for both the employee and the employer.
Labour insurance is not commercial business
Mr President, some may ask: Why start a central compensation fund that will take business away from the private sector? I must stress that taking out insurance for employees is a statutory obligation of employers and that injured employees have a legal right to reasonable compensation. Therefore, the entire employees compensation system is a service provider. It should never be regarded as a commercial business.
In fact, of the amount that is paid each year by employers in insurance premiums, only a small portion is paid out as compensation to injured employees. The lion's share goes to rebates, reinsurance fees, agents' commissions, the insurance companies' administrative expenses and their shareholders. Take 1992 for instance. According to the statistics given by the Commissioner of Insurance, the total amount of premiums paid for employees insurance that year was $1.56 billion. According to the Labour Department's figures, only less than $600 million was paid out as compensation to employees. In July this year, this Council amended the Employees' Compensation Ordinance to increase the amount of compensation pay-out by an estimated $180 million per year. But the insurance industry is asking for a $500 million increase in the amount of insurance premiums. I cannot help but ask: How can a $500 million increase in insurance premiums be commensurate with a $180 million increase in compensation pay-out?
Very clearly, a central fund to sell insurance to employers, if set up, will save a lot of money that is to be spent on reinsurance, commissions, administration and remove the profits of the insurance companies. In addition, the central fund can invest its money to earn additional interest income. By increasing income and cutting expenses, the central fund will stand to gain several hundred million dollars a year. It can then, firstly, increase compensation pay-out without adding to employers' costs and provide additional money for improving industrial safety and for supporting injured employers during recuperation. Secondly, it can lower insurance premium rates, to the benefit of both employees and employers.
Precedent for central fund
Of course, some will probably say that a centrally managed fund is inefficient and tends to be wasteful of social resources, to the ultimate detriment
702 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 3 November 1993
of everybody. But I would like to tell you clearly that not only do central compensation systems exist in foreign countries, but there are also precedents of a central compensation system in Hong Kong. In the area of employees compensation, the Government set up a central compensation fund for victims of pneumoconiosis as early as 1980. In 1990, the Government set up the Employees Compensation Assistance Fund.
Take the Pneumoconiosis Compensation Fund as an example. A committee composed of employers, employees, experts and government representatives is responsible for collecting levies and managing the fund by investing it and using it to pay compensation to employees. The Committee has been doing well. We should study this example. In fact, the Government is now planning to set up a compensation fund for occupational hearing loss. Therefore, if the Government acts quickly to set up a central employees compensation fund, the separate funds now in existence or under consideration can all be incorporated into it. This will make the entire employees compensation system more effective and more efficient.
Suggestions on the Fund's operations
I believe that the points made above have fully established the advantages of a central compensation system. I suggest that the Government should quickly legislate the establishment of such a Fund. In addition, a committee in charge of the Fund should be set up, composed of employees, employers, government representatives and experts. With regard to the day-to-day management of the Fund and the processing of the claims, consideration may be given to letting non-civil servants manage the Fund as in the case of the Pneumoconiosis Compensation Fund or letting civil servants manage it as in the case of the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Fund. I believe that such a central management body will not be less efficient than the present system where management responsibilities are scattered.
Mr President, with these remarks, I move the motion.
Question on the motion proposed.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, section 5 of the Employees' Compensation Ordinance provides that if, in any employment, personal injury by accident arising out of and in the course of the employment is caused to an employee, his employer shall be liable to pay compensation. Section 40 also provides for compulsory insurance against employers' liability mentioned above. Obviously under the law, it is obligatory on employers to be liable for employees' injuries resulting from accidents at work. Employers, therefore, take out insurance for their employees. In actual terms, employers can only take out such kind of compulsory policy with private insurance companies. And such a practice has proved to be riddled with problems. This mechanism cannot ensure employers to be held wholly responsible for their
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