ENG-1993-02-10 — Page 1

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1775 OFFICAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, 10 February 1993

The Council met at half-past Two o'clock

PRESENT

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

THE HONOURABLE JOHN JOSEPH SWAINE, C.B.E., Q.C., J.P.

THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY

THE HONOURABLE NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, C.B.E., J.P.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE STEPHEN CHEONG KAM-CHUEN, C.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.

THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH

THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P.

1776 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E.

THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.

THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP

THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG

THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG

REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD

THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE

THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA

DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA

THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN

DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING

THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK

THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING

THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT

THE HONOURABLE GILBERT LEUNG KAM-HO

THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1777 THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG

THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM

THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN

DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG

DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM

THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN

DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI

THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO

THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK

ABSENT

THE CHIEF SECRETARY

THE HONOURABLE SIR DAVID ROBERT FORD, K.B.E., L.V.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN

THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN

IN ATTENDANCE

THE HONOURABLE JOHN CHAN CHO-CHAK, L.V.O., O.B.E., J.P. SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER

MRS ELIZABETH WONG CHIEN CHI-LIEN, I.S.O., J.P.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE

THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL SZE CHO-CHEUNG, I.S.O., J.P.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS

1778 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

MR ANTHONY GORDON EASON, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS

MRS ELIZABETH MARGARET BOSHER, J.P.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES

THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

MR CLETUS LAU KWOK-HONG

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1779 Papers

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject

Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No.

Import and Export (Strategic Commodities)

Regulations (Amendment of Schedule)

Order 1993 .............................................................................................. 23/93

Continuing Legal Education (Amendment)

Rule 1993 ................................................................................................ 27/93

Import and Export (Amendment of Schedule)

Notice 1993 ............................................................................................. 28/93

Sessional Papers 1992-93

No. 54 — Regional Council Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the year ending 31 March 1994

No. 55 — Regional Council Revised Estimates of

Expenditure 1992-93

No. 56 — Revisions to the 1992-93 Estimates approved by

the Urban Council during the third quarter of the

1992-93 financial year

No. 57 — Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the

Report of the Director of Audit on the Accounts of the

Hong Kong Government for the year ended

31 March 1992 and the Results of Value for Money Audits

January 1993

PAC Report No. 19

1780 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 Address

Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Director of Audit on the Accounts of the Hong Kong Government for the year ended 31 March 1992 and the Results of Value for Money Audits January 1993 PAC Report No. 19

MR STEPHEN CHEONG: Mr Deputy President, on behalf of the Public Accounts Committee, I have the honour to table the Committee's Report No. 19 today.

The PAC Report No. 19 covers the conclusions reached by the Committee in considering the Director of Audit's Report No. 19 on the accounts of the Hong Kong Government for the year ended 31 March 1992, and the results of value for money audits completed between March and September 1992. In tabling this report, I wish to re emphasize that the function of our Committee is not vindictive or punitive, but to examine with the Administration issues raised in the Director of Audit's Report with a view to drawing lessons from mistakes made in the past and arriving at recommendations for the more efficient use of public funds in future.

In considering the Director of Audit's Report No. 19, the Committee note with concern the apparent lack of co-ordination amongst government departments where more than one department are involved in pursuing certain common objectives. This lack of co-ordination is evident in a number of issues raised in the Director of Audit's Report. The Committee consider that it is essential for the Government to consider ways to improve co-ordination amongst departments involved in common issues by designating a particular controlling officer as the overall co-ordinator whenever more than one government department are involved in any project.

The Committee have been pleased by the positive approach adopted by Controlling Officers towards the Director of Audit's observations and their co-operative attitude in facilitating the Committee's deliberations. The Committee trust that the Administration, the Audit Department and the Committee will continue to work closely with a view to achieving better efficiency and cost-effectiveness within the Government.

Mr Deputy President, I trust that the recommendations contained in our Report No. 19 will be accepted by the Administration.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1781 Oral answers to questions

Waste recycling

1. REV FUNG CHI-WOOD asked (in Cantonese): In view of the rapidly increasing amount of solid waste generated in Hong Kong and the expensive cost of construction and operation of landfills, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) whether a thorough feasibility study has been conducted to identify the advantages and disadvantages of recycling waste materials in the territory; and

(b) if not, when such a study will be undertaken?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President,

(a) The Environmental Protection Department commissioned a consultancy study to look into the feasibility of recycling construction waste in April 1991. This form of waste was selected for study because it accounts for about 60% of the solid waste going to landfills. The study concluded that recycling was technically feasible and in April and May 1992 a six-week trial was conducted at the Tseung Kwan O landfill. The aim of the trial was to assess what equipment and practical procedures would be necessary to select construction waste suitable for disposal as reclamation fill material. The trial also demonstrated that it is feasible to separate various types of construction waste — such as concrete and reinforcing bars and putrescible wastes — such as wood and plastic. In the light of the study findings, the Director of Environmental Protection is now discussing with the Hong Kong Construction Association implementation arrangements to help conserve valuable space at landfills.

(b) As regards solid waste other than construction waste, it is proposed that another study should start later this year to examine practical options to reduce the amount of municipal waste going to landfills.

REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, it is mentioned in paragraph (b) of the reply that another study will start later this year. How long will that study take, and how much will be spent?

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SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, I think the sort of detail as regards the exact brief for the study, what areas it will cover, how it will be done and by whom, and therefore how much time it will take and its cost have yet to be worked out. So I am not at the moment in a position to answer those specific questions.

MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, will the Administration inform this Council whether it has any policy to encourage the public to separate various types of waste, or whether it will use different litterbins for different types of waste such as waste paper, glass bottles or other substances in order to facilitate separate treatment?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, it is the Government's policy to examine measures to limit the amount of waste and to encourage the recovery and recycling of waste and that means its separation. And proposals in this respect were set out in the 1989 White Paper on the environment. At present over 60 government branches and departments and 30 housing estates and some 450 private establishments have schemes to collect waste paper separately from other waste and a recent review of these schemes has indicated that the overall response to waste paper separation for recycling is encouraging. As I have said, the separation of construction waste is already under detailed review, and beyond that I think I can say that in our review of the 1989 White Paper on the environment we will be taking another comprehensive look at the question of waste separation and recycling with a view to becoming somewhat more proactive about these matters.

MR HOWARD YOUNG: Mr Deputy President, with reference to the reply which says that it has been demonstrated that it is feasible to separate various types of construction waste, will the Government confirm that when it comes to the implementation of such separation it will be at source at construction sites rather than at some intermediate sites which, I think, will cause more manpower and resources to be used?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, I cannot this afternoon confirm that it will be at source. I think the studies, with the help of the Hong Kong Construction Association, have indicated that for sizeable sites — where we are talking about redevelopment and the disposal of post-construction waste — separation on site is likely to be feasible. But in the many smaller sites which are redeveloped in Hong Kong, space limitations may make this more difficult and in those circumstances there may be a case for providing a site or sites where the process can be carried out centrally. I emphasize the words "may be" because I think these are matters which require further detailed examination. I can confirm that, as far as the

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1783

question of double-handling and possible extension of environmental disadvantages goes, intermediate sites are not the best solution but for other reasons they may be unavoidable.

MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, I would like to follow up the matter concerning how to recover construction waste which, according to the main reply, is being discussed between the Administration and the Hong Kong Construction Association. Information that we obtained earlier on indicated that some construction companies and lorry drivers were far from being co-operative and this posed great difficulties to the Administration in carrying out the scheme and caused long delays. May I ask the Administration whether such co-operation has improved and whether it has other methods to make people in the trade co-operate with the Administration?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, I am not sure whether Miss LAU has anything particular in mind when she refers to other measures. If the idea relates to the possibility of coercion, then I think that would be a last resort. I think I can say that the Hong Kong Construction Association on its part has co operated very positively in the examination of these problems and the identification of solutions to them. It is true that the practical implementation has been impeded by, basically, the problems which the drivers of trucks experience in complying with the sometimes quite detailed requirements to enable the new arrangements to work. But I believe that there are practical solutions and I believe that if we can explore these in the same co-operative way as we have done so far with the Hong Kong Construction Association, and with the further co-operation of the transport element of this situation, then we will be able to find solutions.

MR PETER WONG: Mr Deputy President, in relation to the second part of the Secretary's answer relating to municipal waste, will the study include the pros and cons of incineration under modern technology and the relative costings involved, taking into account the comparative value of land use for incinerators and the landfills?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, I think the main emphasis as regards the study which I have mentioned will be on the reduction of municipal waste going to landfills, and I think we shall be looking for shorter term answers to these problems than would be provided by the incineration route, given that the design, planning and construction of the sort of modern incinerator that we would be considering at this stage would not be something that could be achieved in the very short term. But having said that, we certainly have not ruled out a complementary role, over the long term, for landfills and incinerators.

1784 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

MISS CHRISTINE LOH: Mr Deputy President, could the Administration please inform this Council whether it intends to apply a "polluter pays" principle for the disposal of solid waste?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, as part of the brief which seeks to reduce the amount of waste being produced by the community, I think the deployment of the sort of incentive or disincentive of charging is a factor that we should certainly take into account, and we certainly have established already as a policy of this Government that the "polluter pays" principle should be deployed.

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, will the Administration inform this Council what the remaining 40% of solid waste going to landfills are? Can they be separated or recovered for recycling as well?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, I think I have in fact covered this point in the second part of my answer to the main question in informing the Council that we will be conducting a second study later this year to consider precisely the issues referred to in the last question.

Fishing industry's predicaments

2. MR ALBERT CHAN asked (in Cantonese): In view of the threat posed to the fishing industry by the new airport project and the major port development programme by the Government, will the Government inform this Council whether a comprehensive assessment will be conducted on the impacts of these projects upon the fishing industry, and whether, and if so what, assistance will be provided by the Government to help the fishermen to maintain their livelihood?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr Deputy President, the Government has conducted an assessment of the impact on the fishing industry of the airport core programme projects and other major development works entailing reclamation. The Director of Agriculture and Fisheries estimates that some 27 500 hectares of inshore fishing grounds will be affected by dredging, reclamation and mud dumping works. As a result, the livelihood of some 4 000 fishermen habitually operating 1 500 small fishing boats in the waters between Lung Kwu Chau and the Ninepins will be affected to a varying degree.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1785

The Agriculture and Fisheries Department, with the assistance of the other departments involved, has held meetings with the affected fishermen to inform them of the programme of works, of their eligibility for ex gratia allowance and of the availability of other assistance such as retraining, public housing and social security.

The annual production from the affected areas represents some 1.7%, by weight, of the total production of the Hong Kong fishing fleet. Thus the works will not affect significantly the overall supply of fresh marine fish to Hong Kong.

MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, referring to the ex gratia allowances given to the affected fishermen as mentioned in the second paragraph of the Administration's reply, the fishermen concerned have expressed dissatisfaction with the amount offered during meetings and interviews with officers of the Agriculture and Fisheries Department as it was calculated on the basis of the compensation package formulated in 1978, which was inadequate to maintain their living. Would the Administration inform this Council when it will complete its review on the ex gratia allowances; and apart from arrangements for the fishermen affected, what kind of compensation and assistance will be given to those engaged in fish farming?

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That second question goes beyond your main question and it is really two question, Mr Albert CHAN. Secretary, the first part only.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr Deputy President, my colleague, the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Land, has stated in a written answer today to Dr Philip WONG on a similar question that the review of the ex gratia allowances is now in progress. Obviously it is the intention to complete this review as quickly as possible but I cannot say at this stage when conclusions will be reached. I understand that some applications from fishermen affected to date have been assessed and ex gratia allowances paid. Other applications are under consideration.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, the issue of compensation is also one that I have great interest in because it concerns fairness. The more important point here is that getting compensation may mean losing one's livelihood. Does the Administration have plans like opening up fishing ports so that inshore fishermen may make use of their steel vessels and develop deep-sea fishing; and opening up more mariculture zones so that those previously engaged in inshore fishing may turn to fish farming?

1786 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All that relates to remedies, Secretary.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr Deputy President, I think the Director of Agriculture and Fisheries considers that the best way to help the fishermen concerned is to assist those who would wish to pursue alternative forms of livelihood; for example, those who wish to pursue fishing in more distant waters may take advantage of vocational training courses offered by the Agriculture and Fisheries Department which lead to certificates of competency for coxswains and engineers and in radio telephony. Those who wish to pursue their livelihood outside the fishing industry may seek assistance from the Labour Department under the employees retraining scheme. Indeed if a sufficient number of fishermen ask to be retrained in specific skills the Employees Retraining Board will consider organizing special retraining programmes for them. The Agriculture and Fisheries Department is also prepared to assist individual fishermen who for one reason or another would find it difficult to acquire new skills to look for employment on large fishing vessels. On the question of relocation, I understand that in this instance there is some problem in asking fishermen to relocate because of the very wide extent of the areas currently affected by the dredging and reclamation operations.

MR ERIC LI: Mr Deputy President, I understand that the Government's position is not to prohibit fishing altogether while dredging is ongoing. Therefore fishermen are still actually fishing side by side with heavy dredging vessels. Without adequate working rules these dredging vessels actually pose quite a serious safety hazard to the fishermen concerned. Can the Administration inform this Council what safety rules it would impose on the dredging contractors to ensure the safety of the fishermen fishing in the area?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr Deputy President, I was not aware of this particular problem of potential safety hazards but I will be happy to discuss it further with the Secretary for Works and see whether special measures are required under the circumstances.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Will you provide a written answer, Secretary? SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Yes, Mr Deputy President. (Annex I)

MR TIK CHI-YUEN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, the Secretary has mentioned that it is the Administration's intention to help fishermen to find new jobs by way of retraining schemes. I have however received a petition from the fishermen concerned. In it, they say, "We are a group of old fishermen who do

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1787

not have any other skills. Our education level is low and finding our own accommodation is beyond our means. Now our livelihood is seriously affected". May I ask the Secretary how many fishermen can actually benefit from the retraining schemes? Could she give some figures?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr Deputy President, I have no specific figures on how many individual fishermen can be assisted. As I tried to outline earlier on, the aim of the Director of Agriculture and Fisheries is to try and cater for as many different categories of fishermen as possible either through specific retraining schemes or through trying to assist them to find employment on other fishing vessels which go to distant waters.

DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, could the Secretary inform this Council of the annual loss in terms of economic value of the 4 000 fishermen being affected and of the rate of compensation offered?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr Deputy President, I understand that the annual average value of the fishing harvest in these waters is approximately $65 million which is about 3% of the total value of the fishing catch coming into Hong Kong. I am afraid the question of how compensation relates to the value of those catches does not fall within my policy remit. With your permission, perhaps the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Land could elaborate.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Yes, Mr Deputy President, I will try and answer that question although I do not have full details here. The arrangements for compensating fishermen affected by public works which were last put to and agreed by the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council in 1978 tried to deal with the fishermen who are affected on the basis of dislocation and I think the rule of thumb is to compensate for the value of about one year's fishing for the individual fisherman. Now, that does not necessarily compound up into some relationship with the economic value of fishing but I would have thought there should be some relationship. As has been said already both in a written answer to another question this afternoon and in one of my colleague's answers a moment ago, it is this basis of compensation which is currently under review and as soon as we are able to complete that review we will make known the results.

MR LAU WONG-FAT (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, would the Administration inform this Council of the ratio of inshore fishermen to deep-sea fishermen? Is it just the inshore fishing industry that is affected by the new airport project and the major port development programme?

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SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr Deputy President, it is my understanding that it is only the inshore fishermen who are affected by the reclamation and dredging works in connection with PADS. As I said in my main answer, their catch represents about 1.7% of the total annual fish catch coming into Hong Kong.

HIV tests conducted by China

3. MR TAM YIU-CHUNG asked (in Cantonese): In view of the requirement imposed by some countries for visitors to be HIV tested before entry, will the Government inform this Council whether consideration will be given by public hospitals to provide the service of HIV tests and to issue medical certificates for the general public on request to facilitate their travelling to these countries?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr Deputy President, health requirements for international travellers are governed by the International Health Regulations (IHR) of the World Health Organization (WHO). The key underlying principle of these regulations is, I quote, "to ensure the maximum security against the international spread of diseases with a minimum interference with world traffic".

The IHR set out the obligations and responsibilities of health authorities for the appropriate health measures in respect of, inter alia, notification and exchange of epidemiological information with WHO, medical examination and surveillance of persons from infected areas, disinfection and disinsectization services, port and airport vector and rodent control services, food and water hygiene in port and airport, free pratique and vaccination services.

There are at present three diseases subject to the provisions of these regulations. These are cholera, plague and yellow fever. AIDS is not a disease subject to the provisions of the IHR.

The screening of international travellers for Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) is in fact contrary to WHO's advice. It is costly and ineffective. To quote from the guidelines promulgated by WHO.

"No screening programme of international travellers can prevent the introduction and spread of HIV infection"; and again,

"HIV screening programme for international travellers would, at best and at great cost, retard only briefly the dissemination of HIV both globally and with respect to any particular country".

Moreover, it is generally believed that there could be a so-called "window period" of about three months between the time of infection and the time when the infection can be detected. Because of this "window period" AIDS-free

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1789

certificates may further create a false sense of security, both for the travellers and for the countries concerned.

In accordance with WHO's Global Strategy for the Prevention and Control of AIDS, our focus is on education and prevention of the disease. Our screening programme is targeted at those people who are at risk of being infected. It is offered as a comprehensive package including pre- and post- screening counselling and education on modification of risk-taking behaviour. These tests are conducted on the basis of clinical judgement to assist in diagnosis of the patient's condition. As a matter of principle, therefore, we do not provide the practice of screening for HIV infection simply for travel purposes.

MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, the Secretary has mentioned in the last paragraph of her reply that "we do not provide the practice of screening for HIV infection simply for travel purposes". But in view of the requirement of the Chinese health authorities for Hong Kong people who frequently visit China to undergo HIV tests, will the Administration discuss with the Chinese side to persuade it to follow the advice of the World Health Organization in this respect? If not, will the Administration reconsider providing HIV tests for and issuing medical certificates to the public, rather than just sitting back and doing nothing?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr Deputy President, as with other overseas countries, the requirement for visitors and immigrants to undergo medical examination including that for HIV tests is entirely a matter of the host country's internal policy. However, in this particular matter, we are concerned with the possible inconvenience caused by such requirement to those Hong Kong people who frequently visit China. We have been in contact and will continue to seek ways of minimizing such inconvenience through our discussions with the Chinese health authorities via established channels of communication.

MR STEVEN POON (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, in her reply the Secretary said that the Administration would discuss with the Chinese authorities concerned on this issue. Since many Hong Kong people often go to China and frequent visitors are required to undergo HIV tests on leaving China, will the Administration urge the Chinese authorities to exempt Hong Kong people from such tests?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr Deputy President, all ideas will be offered for discussion.

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MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, just now the Secretary said in her reply that contacts had been made with the Chinese authorities. Will the Administration inform this Council of the progress made so far?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr Deputy President, as I said in my earlier reply, we have been in contact and will continue to seek ways of minimizing the inconvenience resulting from the tests on travellers, which have been recently announced by China through our media in Hong Kong.

MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, will the Administration inform this Council of the types of HIV tests adopted in Hong Kong, their effectiveness and the costs involved?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr Deputy President, I have information ready here on the type of tests which are available in Hong Kong and the tests which we do are through our surveillance programme. For example, the ELISA Test adopted by the Department of Health costs, including staff costs, currently $410 per test. There is a further confirmatory test called the Western Blot test which is very much the test adopted in this part of the world. The cost of the re-agent used is about $200 per test. On an average, we do about 50 000 tests in recent months but between 1985 and this year we have carried out 1.45 million tests or thereabouts.

REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, since no screening programme of international travellers can prevent the introduction and spread of HIV infection, will the Secretary suggest to China to abolish this compulsory test during her contacts with the Chinese officials?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr Deputy President, our views on HIV testing of travellers have been explained in my main reply. What individual countries regard as necessary for the protection of public health is a matter for the relevant health authorities in the light of the individual country's own circumstances.

MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, we learnt from the media that tests were carried out on visitors at the Guangzhou checkpoint only. In fact Hong Kong people enter different parts of China through different checkpoints. Is this test carried out at the Guangzhou checkpoint only and not other checkpoints? If so, why just in Guangzhou? Furthermore, will the Administration try to seek such an exemption for Hong Kong people during discussions with the Chinese authorities?

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SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr Deputy President, it would not be appropriate for the Secretary for Health and Welfare in Hong Kong to answer as regards the whys and wherefores. I will certainly seek appropriate replies to the questions asked.

MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr Deputy President, in relation to the Chinese need for HIV testing at the immigration checkpoints in Guangzhou, if an individual is found to be negative how long does the Guangzhou authority accept the effectiveness of that certificate?

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think it is not really a question for this Administration, Mr McGREGOR.

MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, as the compulsory HIV tests and the demand for medical reports are a total disregard of one's will and encroach on one's privacy, will the Administration inform this Council if it would ask the Chinese authorities to stop such tests before they start discussing the issue?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr Deputy President, I am aware of the statement made by the AIDS Foundation last week that the practice in China might be in breach of human rights. The basis of this statement issued by the AIDS Foundation is a matter for the AIDS Foundation whose chairman, I might add, is none other than our Honourable Member Peggy LAM. It would not be appropriate for me to comment on the statement issued by an organization, but, insofar as Hong Kong public health is concerned, Article 16 of the Bill of Rights Ordinance provides inter alia for restrictions of individual freedom where such are necessary for the protection of public health. Our view on HIV testing of travellers has been explained in my main reply. What individual countries regard as necessary for the protection of public health is a matter for the relevant health authorities in the light of the individual country's own circumstances.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr Deputy President, I am well aware of the fact that the Secretary for Health and Welfare has no jurisdiction in China. But for the sake of the Hong Kong public, would it be possible for the Administration to find out whether the checkpoints are only in Guangzhou or all over China, and also whether this is a policy of the Central Health Administration of China or whether it is a local issue in Guangzhou alone?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Yes, Mr Deputy President.

1792 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 Employment protection for employees in industrial dispute

4. MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG asked (in Cantonese): Since the recent industrial dispute of the Cathay Pacific Airways suggests that the existing laws in Hong Kong do not provide sufficient protection to employees against possible punitive action by employers as a result of the employees having organized or taken part in strikes and other industrial actions, will the Government inform this Council whether the relevant legislation will be promptly reviewed and improved so that such employees can be provided with adequate employment protection as quickly as possible?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, as Honourable Members are aware, the Governor has asked me to consider what lessons might be learned from the recent industrial dispute involving Cathay Pacific Airways. The process is now in hand. As part of this exercise, I am considering, with the advice and assistance of the Attorney General's Chambers, whether our existing laws concerning industrial disputes are adequate and whether they strike the right balance between the interests of employers, employers, employees and the community at large.

MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, will the Administration inform this Council whether it would consider introducing legislation to provide for a freeze of employment contracts upon the serving of a notice to stroke until the formal resumption of work so as to protect the strikers from dismissal on returning to work on the pretext of a breach of contract?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, I cannot at this stage prejudge the outcome of the review, but all relevant issues including the ones mentioned by Mr CHEUNG will be looked into.

MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, the Labour Department is empowered under the law to appoint an arbiter or to set up an enquiry board in circumstances like this. The Administration however has not done so on this occasion. On the review of our legislation with a view to making further improvement, will the Administration look into the enforcement and implementation of our legislation?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, the purpose of the review is to consider what lessons might be learnt from the recent industrial dispute. The lessons to be learnt are not confined to strictly legal issues but would also include implementation of the law, administrative action and so forth.

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MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, will the Secretary inform this Council when the review will be completed, whether a report will be submitted to the Manpower Panel of this Council and whether Members of this Council and the public will be consulted?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, I am sorry that it is not possible to give a definite timing at this stage because the subject is a complex one which has an important bearing on the long-term interests of Hong Kong. I can assure Members that the matter is being pursued as quickly as possible and I will be glad to keep Members informed of progress from time to time.

MR RONALD ARCULLI: Mr Deputy President, the Secretary in his reply referred to striking the right balance. I am sure that no pun was intended. But in attempting to strike the right balance, would he ensure that proper safeguards are given to both the employee and the employer; and would he take into account, on the one hand, that proper industrial action, including strikes, could be taken without any concern of victimization, and on the other hand, would he ensure that industrial action, including strikes, would not be initiated by a small minority of members of a registered trade union as was the case in the Cathay Pacific incident?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, I confirm to the Honourable Member that no pun was intended. Certainly this is a matter which involves finding the right balance between the interests of employers, employees and the community at large, and certainly the points which were raised by Mr ARCULLI will be fully looked into in the process of the current review.

MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, in handling the Cathay Pacific strike, the Administration did not appoint an arbiter on the ground that both sides were still willing to negotiate. Now that the company has no intention to negotiate any further with the employees, will the Administration consider appointing an arbiter under this circumstance?

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry, Mr CHAN. That does not really relate to the question.

DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, will the Administration inform this Council whether it would consider amending the law governing trade unions to give them better protection against discrimination by extending

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the meaning of "appropriate time" to include the working hours within which strikes take place?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, I have taken careful note of Dr YEUNG's suggestion.

MR LAU CHIN-SHEK (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, will the Administration inform this Council in categorical terms what lessons have been learnt from the recent industrial dispute involving Cathay Pacific Airways? Meanwhile, what measures are in place to protect employees on notification of their intention to strike from dismissal by the virtue of certain provisions of the employment contract (such as a breach of contract), in order to ensure the right to strike?

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can you please put that as a single question, Mr LAU, in relation to the review — a single question?

MR LAU CHIN-SHEK (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, will the Administration inform this Council in categorical terms what lessons have been learnt from the recent industrial dispute involving Cathay Pacific Airways?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, as I said in my main reply, I have been asked by the Governor to consider what lessons can be drawn from the recent dispute. This is a process which is in hand and which has just started and I do not think it would be appropriate for me to say today what lessons have been learnt until the review has been completed.

MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, at the last meeting of the Manpower Panel of this Council, many colleagues asked whether it was true that the people of Hong Kong have the freedom but not the right to strike? At that time Mr CHAN, the Secretary for Education and Manpower, said some research had to be made before he could give a definitive reply. May I know if the result is ready after a lapse of two weeks? Are there any statutory provisions conferring the right to strike? If the Secretary is unable to answer, will the Attorney General be able to assist?

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It does not really relate to the main question or answer which goes to the Government's review, Mr LEE.

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MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, my question relates to the review of the legislation in respect of the definition of strike and the right to strike. So I believe it is within the ambit of the main question.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, as this question involves a legal matter, may I take up the Honourable Member's suggestion and defer to the Attorney General?

ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr Deputy President, may I start by saying that one should strike a note of caution about attempting to define the right to strike, because I do not believe that it is an expression that is known to the English Law. It is an expression, of course, used in international treaties and perhaps that is where the Honourable Member got the reference from. If by the right to strike the Honourable Member means the freedom of an employee to withdraw his labour in the furtherance of a trade dispute, then I know of no law in Hong Kong that would prohibit an employee from so doing. So, to that extent there is the right to strike.

MR TIK CHI-YUEN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, just now the Secretary was asked to give the timing of the review, but he said he could not do so as the subject was a complex one. Will the Secretary explain what is so complex that has made giving a timetable impossible?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, in considering what lessons can be drawn from the dispute there are various issues which need to be looked at. First of all, there are administrative issues — whether there are sufficient guidelines within the Administration concerning the implementation of the existing laws. There are complex legal issues involved — whether our existing laws are adequate and whether they achieve the right balance between various interests and this involves not just domestic law but also questions relating to Hong Kong's international obligations. So these are very complex issues and I have only quoted a few examples.

MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr Deputy President, will the Secretary provide comparative information on the recent record of Hong Kong in regard to other industrial developing countries in terms of man days lost through industrial action and will he say whether Hong Kong's record in this regard is one of the best in the world?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, I can certainly confirm that Hong Kong's industrial relations record is one of the best in the world. I do have some figures here on the number of man hours lost

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through industrial action, if I could find it. In Hong Kong, for example, in 1991, the number of working days lost through industrial action was 202 days, as opposed to 15.7 million days in India, 0.5 million days in Indonesia, 3.2 million days in Korea and 236 000 days in Thailand.

MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, will the Administration consider adopting the relevant provisions of the Employment Protection Act of the United Kingdom on unfair dismissal so that we have similar provisions against unfair dismissal such as dismissal of strike leaders following a strike?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, I have taken note of Mr CHEUNG's suggestion.

MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, everybody is very concerned about the law on strike. If some employees in a company take part in a strike while others are unwilling to do so, does the Administration think that the current legislation is sufficient to protect those who do not take part from, for example, intimidation from strikers and to prevent any inconvenience caused?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, this is one part of the balance which will need to be achieved.

MR MARTIN LEE: Mr Deputy President, does the Administration appreciate the difference between freedom to strike which was referred to by the Attorney General in his answer and the right to strike which clearly means something more, namely, that in exercising the freedom to strike the striker will not be punished?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President, may I again defer to the Attorney General?

ATTORNEY GENERAL: As I said, Mr Deputy President, when I spoke earlier, it all depends on what one means by the right to strike. The obligation under international treaty which refers to states parties' obligations in respect of the right to strike is not interpreted by the British Government, and it is not interpreted by other governments, to mean that contracting parties are obliged to formulate legislation conferring the right to strike. One will not find any such legislation in the United Kingdom. What the obligation requires is that the

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contracting parties take no legislative or administrative steps to impede a worker's freedom to withdraw his labour in furtherance of a trade dispute.

Election arrangements

5. MR GILBERT LEUNG asked (in Cantonese): Given the recent remarks by the British Foreign Secretary to the effect that the Governor and the British Government would hold discussions to find a way out of the current impasse over the 1994-95 election arrangements, and that "the days when these matters can be settled between London and Peking without taking any account of opinion in Hong Kong have obviously gone", now will the Administration assure this Council that no agreement will be concluded with China on such arrangements without prior consultation with this Council and the people of Hong Kong, and that this Council will not be presented with a fait accompli?"

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr Deputy President, the Governor and Ministers have made clear that there will be no secret deals. The constitutional position is in any case clear. The elections in 1994-95 will have to be held on the basis of laws enacted by this Council. If there were to be discussions between Britain and China resulting in an understanding, the British and Hong Kong Governments would of course recommend it to this Council. The Governor has consistently made clear that the electoral arrangements for 1994-95 should be open, fair and acceptable to the people of Hong Kong. The British Government endorses this view.

MR GILBERT LEUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, my question is: will this Council and the people of Hong Kong be consulted before any agreement is reached between the Chinese and British Governments? Mr Deputy President, would the Administration just answer "yes" or "no"?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr Deputy President, any discussions with the Chinese Government will be made public. The fact that there are discussions will be made known but discussions at diplomatic level will have to remain confidential if they are to achieve the results. But it is also clear that any agreement which could then be translated into laws, which are necessary in order that the elections in 1994 and 1995 could be carried out, would have to be acceptable to this Council and the community as a whole.

MR NGAI SHIU-KIT (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, the Secretary mentioned in his reply that there would be no secret deals between the Chinese and British Governments. But he also said and I quote: "if there were to be discussions between Britain and China resulting in an understanding", that is, there may have been discussions between both countries before an understanding

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is reached. My question is: (1) Could the Administration inform this Council of the channels through which discussions will be conducted to arrive at an understanding? (2) Given that the Chinese officials have reiterated China's sincerity in having discussions with the British side and the latter has emphasized time and again that things are not non negotiable, could the Administration advise this Council when the British Government will return to the negotiating table to resolve the issue of constitutional package?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr Deputy President, with regard to the first question as to what channels, we will pursue all channels which are open to us and which will be conducive to the resolution of the current impasse. As to when the United Kingdom Government will return to the negotiating table, for the purpose of record, we have since 7 October made an offer to negotiate and to discuss with the Chinese Government, without preconditions, the electoral arrangement for 1994-95. So the question of when we will return to the negotiating table does not arise.

MR EDWARD HO: Mr Deputy President, I refer to the statement made by the Secretary in his reply that the British and the Hong Kong Governments would of course recommend to this Council if there were to be discussions between Britain and China resulting in an understanding. My question is: if no understanding is reached would the Government also recommend it to this Council?

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Recommend what to the Council, Mr Edward HO, if there is no agreement?

MR EDWARD HO: Mr Deputy President, I actually quoted from the Secretary's reply and I think when he referred to understanding, he was referring to constitutional development.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry, Mr HO. I do not think there is a question there because if there is no understanding, there is nothing to recommend. Would you like to rephrase your question?

MR EDWARD HO: If there is no understanding over the political development, will the Government recommend those proposals to this Council?

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.

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SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr Deputy President, the Governor has unveiled a comprehensive package of proposals to this Council on 7 October. It is our intention to recommend those proposals in legislative form to this Council and I shall have the privilege of moving one of those Bills later on. As to what would happen should we reach the stage of having discussions with the Chinese side and what action we should take at that stage, I do not think it would be wise of me or right of me to speculate.

MR MARTIN BARROW: Mr Deputy President, could the Secretary confirm he is aware that many Members of this Council, as well as the public, would welcome a dialogue which must necessarily be in secret between Britain and China and that he will not be discouraged by the thrust of the original question?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr Deputy President, yes.

MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, would the Secretary inform this Council whether negotiations would be made more difficult if a Bill in respect of the electoral arrangements was introduced to this Council before the Chinese and British sides resume their talks over the constitutional package? What is the Secretary's view on this?

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, view as to what, Mr TAM? I think your question has got to be one that the Secretary is able to understand and answer.

MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, the Secretary should have understood my question. But I can put it to him again. We have been discussing the talks between Britain and China over the constitutional package. May I ask the Secretary, that if he should present to this Council proposals for the 1994-95 electoral arrangements before both sides resume their talks, would that make resumption of talks more difficult and complicate the matter further?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr Deputy President, those proposals are public and have been debated in various forums. What we seek to do is to present those proposals in legislative form to this Council and, as I have explained, there is a need to do so. As to whether the introduction of those proposals in legislative form to this Council would or would not affect hypothetical discussions, I do not wish to comment.

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MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, could the Secretary give an assurance that this Council would not be dissolved if Britain and China fail to reach an agreement over the question of 1995 elections and an earlier election will be held?

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I do not think the Secretary understands the question put to him. Could you put it to him again?

MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, I seek an assurance from the Secretary that the existing 60-seat assembly of ours would not be dissolved if the Chinese and British Governments fail to reach an agreement over the 1995 elections and an early election will be held this year for a term of four years so that the first legislature would be in place by 1997.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr Deputy President, may I seek your ruling as to whether the question is a hypothetical one?

MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, I was only asking the Secretary to give an assurance of "yes" or "no". If it is impossible, he can say "no"; if it is possible, he can say "I do not know". (Laughter)

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That was a hypothetical question that in fairness I think I should not call the Secretary to reply to.

MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, from the time China and Britain began their talks over the future of Hong Kong ten years ago to the talks over the court of final appeal over a year ago, the views of Hong Kong people, including that of the Legislative Council, have never been taken into account. Why does the British Government now state that "the days ..... have obviously gone" which sounds as if the opinions of Hong Kong people are taken very seriously all of a sudden?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr Deputy President, I speak only on behalf of the Hong Kong Government of which I am an employee. I think it is a clear fact that the opinions of the people of Hong Kong are always taken into account, are always valued. It is in our culture to consult — we have committees, we have Green Papers, we have White Papers. I think it would be a fallacy to say that we have not in the past taken Hong Kong peoples' views into account. I think it is the way in which the views have been expressed that is perhaps new.

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DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, since "starting a new kitchen" is a popular saying these days, would the Secretary clarify what he said in his reply that "the electoral arrangements for 1994-95 should be open, fair and acceptable to the people of Hong Kong" can also be taken to mean "starting a new kitchen"? If not, how does he explain that?

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is also a hypothetical question, Dr Conrad LAM, and you are asking for an opinion. I think we have to draw the line somewhere.

Projections from buildings

6. MR EDWARD HO asked: In view of the potential safety hazards posed by objects hanging from buildings, will the Government inform this Council whether consideration will be given to introducing specific legislative control over the erection of objects, such as pipes, air-conditioners, water-cooling plants, chimneys and so on, on the external walls of buildings?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, I am relieved that Mr HO's question contains no reference to stoves. (Laughter) Projections from buildings, including those of the sort referred to in the question, are generally regarded as being covered by the definitions of "building" or "building works" in the Buildings Ordinance. They are therefore subject to control under the Buildings Ordinance to the same extent as other structures. If they are likely to affect the structural safety of the building, they cannot be erected without the approval of the Building Authority. If they are erected without approval they are liable to be treated as unauthorized building works. The provisions of the Buildings Ordinance enable orders to be served requiring the removal of unauthorized works. The provisions of the Ordinance also enable dangerous or potentially dangerous buildings to be dealt with. As there is already sufficient means available under the Buildings Ordinance to deal with the potential safety hazards identified, I do not consider further specific legislative controls need be introduced.

MR EDWARD HO: Mr Deputy President, although projections from buildings are defined as building or building works in the Buildings Ordinance, can the Secretary inform this Council whether it is a common practice for owners to comply with that Ordinance and submit plans and calculations to the Building Authority for air-conditioning plants or other works erected outside the buildings after the occupation permit is issued? If not, why not?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, I think it would be fair to say that for the bulk of items of a minor nature, such as air conditioning brackets, small canopies which are usually used

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to shelter windows from sun and rain and other minor works of that kind, there is a tendency for owners not to apply and not to seek professional advice. But for more substantial structures of this kind, I believe there is an increasing trend for owners to seek professional advice.

MR LAU WAH-SUM: Mr Deputy President, would the Secretary inform this Council whether he would consider amending the Buildings Regulations to require large air conditioning plants to be located within the building without accounting for the plot ratio and site coverage?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, I will consider the ideas which Mr LAU has raised.

DR SAMUEL WONG: Mr Deputy President, would the Secretary inform this Council what can be done to prevent a reoccurrence of the incident in November last year when a 14- metre long vertical pipe on the outside of a building in King's Road, North Point, fell down to the public roadway which could have easily led to a major disaster?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, a number of steps have been taken in recent years, some before the incident referred to and some since, to step up a concerted effort to deal with what are generally referred to as appendages on the outside of buildings, chimneys, canopies, air-conditioning works and advertising signs. And in the last two to three years — I think the figures which I would quote, which include all these kinds of works and others — about 28 700 works, projections and appendages of this kind have been removed as a result of Building Authority action.

MRS SELINA CHOW: Mr Deputy President, would the Secretary inform this Council whether he would consider legislation to require regular maintenance and repair of the appendages which he just referred to so as to eliminate the potential danger posed to public safety?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, I would certainly consider any reasonable suggestions. I think it needs to be borne in mind that there are approximately an estimated number of 50 000 advertising signs alone and that the other sorts of appendages and projections that we have been referring to probably number in the millions. So, as regards introducing legislation to require things to be done or standards to be met, I think we will always need to take into account the practicality and the enforcement problems which would need to be dealt with.

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MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, will the Administration inform this Council whether advertising signs hung outside buildings, including those that are tens of feet high and stretch across half the street, are subject to control under the Buildings Ordinance? If so, is it necessary for plans to be submitted before their erection?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, as I have said in the answer to the main question, if a structure of this kind will affect the structural integrity of the building, then it should be the subject of a submission under the Buildings Ordinance. If it will not affect the structural integrity of the building, then normally it need not.

MR MARTIN LEE: Mr Deputy President, since the Secretary prefaced his answer to the main question with a reference to an erection of stoves, will he confirm to this Council whether anybody seeking to erect a new stove before 1997 in this territory will require his prior consent? (Laughter)

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sure, Mr LEE, you know that question is out of order. (Laughter)

MR MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, the most serious problem and the problem that the public are most concerned about is the hanging of advertising sings from buildings, especially the oversized, rusted and potentially dangerous ones that have long been abandoned by owners. Will the Administration inform this Council whether there are adequate legislation and measures to deal with these signs immediately in order to protect the life and safety of the public, the commuters (for example those on board open-deck buses) and the pedestrians? Moreover, will the Administration inform this Council whether active steps will be taken to look into the long-term measures to deal with the problem such as determining who should be responsible for the maintenance and repair of the signs in question?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, I will try to deal with those three questions, if I can. First of all, I think there is adequate legislation in place to deal with dangerous or potentially dangerous structures including advertising signs. In fact in the last three or four years the Buildings Ordinance Office, treating advertising signs as structures, has dealt with approximately 6 000 and it goes on dealing with them as and when they are brought to attention, either through inspection of buildings or by reports from the public. So that deals with the emergency situation and I think, as far as the regulation of the construction of advertising signs is concerned, these signs are of the same kind as the items referred to in the main question and

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they are dealt with in the same way. I think I have dealt with two parts; I am afraid I have forgotten the third.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I think we have to move on anyway.

Written answers to questions

Land Development Corporation's joint venture partner

7. DR LEONG CHE-HUNG asked: Will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the criteria used by the Land Development Corporation in selecting private developers in joint venture projects; and

(b) whether any member or former member of the Corporation (including the Chairman) had or has an interest in any of the companies selected for the Corporation's joint venture projects so far?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, the criteria used by the Land Development Corporation (LDC) in selecting joint venture partners for its projects include:

(a) overall financial strength (the ability of the developer to guarantee its financial commitment);

(b) track record in sales and marketing;

(c) project management experience;

(d) property management experience; and

(e) quality of previously completed developments.

To ensure propriety in the selection of joint venture partners and to secure the best possible offers, the LDC invites a wide range of developers to submit offers through a competitive tendering process. The selection of joint venture partners is not undertaken by private negotiation between the LDC and individual developers. The LDC appoints external financial consultants to evaluate the tenders and make recommendations to the LDC's Managing Board as to which is the best offer.

Section 6(1) of the First Schedule to LDC Ordinance provides that "A member of the Corporation who is in any way directly or indirectly interested

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in a contract made or proposed to be made by the Corporation, or in a contract made or proposed to be made by a servant or agent or a partner of the Corporation or, by a body corporate established by the Corporation which is brought up for consideration by the Corporation, shall disclose the nature of his interest at a meeting of the Corporation; and the disclosure shall be recorded in the minutes of the meeting of the Corporation; and the member shall not without the permission of the Chairman take part in any deliberation of the Corporation with respect to that contract and shall not in any event vote on any question concerning it." This section has been adhered to.

The Administration is not aware that any member or former member of the Managing Board has any interest in any of the companies selected as joint venture partners, with the exception of Mr Vincent LO Hong-sui, a former member who retired from the Board on 14 January 1990. Mr LO was a director of Great Eagle Limited, a joint venture partner in one of the LDC's projects. Mr LO declared his interest and left meetings on all occasions when the selection of companies as joint venture partners was discussed.

Voltage upgrading

8. MR HOWARD YOUNG asked: In relation to recent measures to upgrade household electricity supply in Hong Kong to 220 volts, will the Government inform this Council whether there is any plan for further voltage upgrading to 240 volts?

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr Deputy President, the Government decided in May 1990 that the household electricity supply in Hong Kong should be upgraded from 200 to 220 volts. This is being implemented. There are no plans for a further upgrading to 240 volts. A supply voltage of 220 volts was chosen because that voltage is widely used internationally, most of the household equipment and appliances used in Hong Kong are already rated at 220 volts and existing equipment and appliances rated at 200 volts will continue to operate safely at 220 volts (but not necessarily at higher voltages).

Conservation policy within the Government

9. MR DAVID LI asked: In the light of the motion carried by this Council on 2 December 1992 urging the Administration, among other things, to draw up a comprehensive conservation policy, will the Administration inform this Council:

(a) how much paper the Administration uses each year and what steps it has taken towards using recycled paper and to recycle the paper it now uses; and

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(b) what measures have been taken to test the energy efficiency of government buildings and offices and what actions will be taken to improve the current levels of energy efficiency?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President,

(a) The Government uses about 10 000 tonnes of paper each year, about 7% of which (principally brown paper envelopes and file jackets) contain recycled paper. The Planning, Environment and Lands Branch and the Environmental Protection Department have started using recycled writing paper on a trial basis to assess the cost implications and printing quality. However, the fact that recycled paper of an acceptable standard is about 20% to 25% more expensive than the paper in general use is an obstacle to wider use of recycled paper, certainly in the short term, because of the need to balance environmental aims and cost increases. We will continue to monitor the price of recycled paper and explore opportunities for extending its use; but we will also bear in mind the possibility of using other renewable sources of paper which are competitive in price.

We have encouraged measures which facilitate paper recycling. For example, a practical guide was issued by the Planning, Environmental and Lands Branch in August 1990 describing office recycling schemes. Since then over 60 government branches and departments have introduced schemes for the separate collection of paper waste.

The Government has also adopted measures to reduce the use of paper. For example, the Planning, Environment and Lands Branch and the Environmental Protection Department now re-use paper instead of requiring new supply for drafting purposes, and other departments are being encouraged to do the same. A booklet entitled "Waste Paper Recycling From the Office" has been produced by the Environmental Campaign Committee and distributed widely for this purpose. In addition, the increasing use of computers to send messages by "electronic mail" is also helping reduce the use of paper.

(b) To test the energy efficiency of government buildings and offices, the Government commissions special studies, monitors the level of energy consumption and undertakes energy audits on equipment and lighting. For example, in 1991, the Government Property Agency commissioned an in-depth Energy Management Study of Wanchai Tower, and the recommendations arising from the study are now being implemented. Those involving no capital cost are already 90%

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complete, and those involving costs are expected to be completed by November this year. Once the results of this single building study have been fully assessed, users of other government buildings will be required to adopt similar measures where appropriate.

The Electrical and Mechanical Services Department has maintained a continuous programme of investigation and improvement to promote energy efficiency in the Kai Tak Airport buildings since the early 1980s. The programme involves auditing the energy consumption of all equipment and lighting, as well as reviewing the maintenance procedures for energy consuming equipment. As a result, efficiency measures have been identified that have saved more than $6 million per annum. An example of the measures implemented is the matching of air-conditioning with flight schedules and passenger loads so that energy is not used unnecessarily.

The Government has also mounted campaigns to stress the need for energy conservation. In 1990, the "ten tips for good housekeeping" pamphlet, sticker prompters for control switches and book-markers with an energy efficiency message were widely distributed. Seminars were also held to encourage government departments to save energy. The aim was to see if energy consumption for 1991-92 could be kept below the 1990-91 figure. This target was achieved.

In addition, the Government is considering the appointment of energy managers in each government office to carry out energy auditing and promote good energy housekeeping practices. In this connection, the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department has established an energy efficiency sub-division to provide technical support to branches and departments, and to co-ordinate in-house efforts in energy efficiency.

In conclusion, I would like to reaffirm the Government's awareness of the importance of promoting energy efficiency, not just within its own organizations but also in the private sector. To this end, the Energy Efficiency Advisory Committee was set up in April 1991 to advise on proposals to improve energy efficiency in Hong Kong as well as to formulate a comprehensive energy efficiency policy. To date, the Committee has prepared a report on energy consumption patterns in commercial buildings, compiled advisory notes on good energy housekeeping in commercial buildings and introduced an education campaign on energy efficiency. It plans to extend these initiatives further into other major energy consuming sectors such as the residential and the transport sector.

1808 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 Illegal parking

10. MRS PEGGY LAM asked (in Chinese): As the long-standing problem of illegal parking in Hong Kong has still not been completely resolved while the stepping up of enforcement action by the police against illegal parking through the issue of penalty tickets will inevitably adversely affect their relations with the public and the discharge of other police duties, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) whether it is through the intention of improving their relationship with the public that police officers on beat duty are not taking positive action to issue penalty tickets against illegally parked vehicles on the streets;

(b) of the establishment and strength of traffic wardens for each of the preceding five years; and whether there are plans to increase the number of traffic wardens in order to enable the taking of thorough enforcement action against illegal parking through the issue of penalty tickets, and to enable police officers on beat duty to concentrate more on crime fighting duties; and

(c) what plans there are to step up publicity work among drivers and car-owners with a view to soliciting their co-operation, in order to solve the problem of illegal parking in a positive way?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr Deputy President, the police attach importance to maintaining a good relationship with the public, but there is no question of their limiting enforcement against drivers of illegally parked vehicles to achieve this purpose. Indeed, the total number of fixed penalty tickets for illegal parking has increased by 34% from 1 008 499 in 1991 to 1 352 184 in 1992.

The establishment and strength of traffic wardens in each of the past five years are at Annex. We have no immediate plans to increase the number of traffic wardens, but we shall keep this under review.

Both police officers and traffic wardens are empowered to take action against illegal parking. The proportion of fixed penalty tickets for illegal parking issued by traffic wardens has steadily increased, from 34.9% in 1990 to 37.2% in 1991 and to 39.2% in 1992.

Motorists are advised through the "Road Users Code" where, and where not, to park. Copies of the "Road Users Code" are available at Government Publication Centres and Transport Department Licensing Offices. Future road safety publicity campaigns will include publicity about illegal car parking.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1809 Annex

Establishment/Strength of the Traffic Warden 1988-1992

Establishment Strength

STW TWD Total STW TWD Total 1988 48 336 384 46 312 358 1989 48 336 384 42 265 307 1990 48 266 314 37 223 260 1991 48 266 314 46 242 288 1992 48 266 314 46 259 305 Notes: (a) TWD stands for Traffic Wardens and STW for Senior Traffic Wardens.

(b) In April 1990, 70 vacant TWD posts were deleted in line with the Government's policy to restrict growth of the Civil Service.

Eligibility criteria for public housing

11. MR LAU CHIN-SHEK asked (in Chinese): The current policies of the Hong Kong Housing Authority are such that there are restrictions on people with less than seven-years' residence in Hong Kong applying for public housing and for Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) flats. Will the Government inform this Council of the following:

(a) how the demand for public housing and HOS flats will be affected in the next 10 years if the restrictions imposed on these people in applying for public housing and HOS flats are completely removed; and

(b) whether the Government has any plan to remove all such restrictions in the next five years; if not, what the reasons are?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, the current requirement is that the majority of household members should have resided in Hong Kong for seven years or more. It is not possible to assess with any accuracy how the demand for rental and home ownership flats would be affected in the next 10 years if the seven-year residence restriction were lifted. This is because we do not have statistics correlating the number of immigrants who have or will have resided in Hong Kong for less than seven

1810 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

years and their likely eligibility for public housing. Such major assumptions would have to be made about incomes, property ownership and length of residence that any conclusions drawn would be largely meaningless.

The Government has no plans to lift the current restriction since the supply of public housing flats becoming available in the next five years will continue to be very tight against competing demands from those affected by redevelopment or clearances or on the waiting list, nearly all of whom already meet the local residence requirement. These people will continue to have priority for housing assistance.

Metered parking spaces

12. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): The continuing occupation of metered parking spaces by some second-hand car dealers has often deprived other drivers of the use of such spaces. Will the Government inform this Council:

(a) what measures have been taken to stop the above continuing occupation of metered parking spaces; and

(b) whether such measures are effective; if not, what alternative measures have been considered for implementation?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr Deputy President,

(a) Under regulation 8 of the Road Traffic (Parking) Regulations, it is an offence for a vehicle to occupy the same parking space for a continuous period of more than 24 hours. To instigate a successful prosecution would require a watch to be kept on a particular parking space for a 24-hour period. Understandably, the police do not regard this as a high priority in the deployment of their manpower, but they will respond to complaints from members of the public on such matters.

(b) Alternative measures have been considered, but there is no easy solution. Second hand car dealers need places to park their vehicles. It is better that they use metered spaces rather than park vehicles illegally. If, for example, legislation were enacted to make it an offence to feed meters after the expiry of the prescribed period, this would simply result in dealers moving their vehicles between meters or else parking illegally. The demand for parking facilities in the vicinity of car dealers premises would remain.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1811 Divorce legislation

13. MR MARTIN LEE asked: Will the Administration inform this Council what it proposes to do with the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission in its report entitled "Grounds for Divorce and the Time Restriction on Petitions for Divorce within Three Years of Marriage" released in November 1992?

ATTORNEY GENERAL: The Law Reform Commission's report relating to divorce was published on 12 November 1992. The principal recommendations in the report are:

(1) a court should be able to hold that a marriage has irretrievably broken down and to grant a divorce if:

(a) the parties have been separated for one year (instead of the current requirement of two years) and the respondent consents to the divorce; or

(b) the parties have been separated for two years (instead of the current requirement of five years); or

(c) the parties have given a joint notice to the court of their intention to divorce and then, after a minimum period of one year, have filed a joint application for divorce (a new provision);

(2) the general rule that no petition for divorce may be presented within three years from the date of marriage should be amended by changing the period to one year.

The Administration is carefully considering the report and hopes to reach a decision in the near future on whether or not it will seek to implement it.

Compensation arising from dredging works

14. DR PHILIP WONG asked: In connection with the approval given by the Government some time ago for silt dumping and dredging activities at the eastern part of the territorial waters in Hong Kong, the departments concerned have agreed to consider making appropriate compensation to the affected fishermen and review whether compensation should also be extended to fishermen who operate fishing vessels exceeding 15 m in length. Will the Government inform this Council of:

1812 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 (a) the present progress regarding the compensation; and

(b) the latest development of the review on the extension of the compensation package to fishermen who operate fishing vessels exceeding 15 m in length?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, the ex gratia allowances payable to inshore fishermen affected by dredging, dumping and reclamation works are being reviewed to see whether changes should be recommended. The review will take into account works currently being carried as well as those under planning.

The rule that operators of fishing vessels longer than 15 metres should not be eligible for ex gratia allowances was agreed by the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council in 1978 on the grounds that such vessels are capable of fishing elsewhere and are not limited to inshore fishing. Nevertheless, in the light of representations by fishermen, this rule is being examined in the review. This is expected to be completed in the next few months.

Fees for legal services

15. MR LEE WING-TAT asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:

(a) whether it is aware of the public concern over the high fees charged by the legal profession;

(b) if so, whether it plans to take any action such as urging the legal profession to publish a list of legal fees as guidelines to the general public seeking legal services; and

(c) whether the legal aid service provided for the public is under regular review to ensure that no one is denied adequate legal service for want of means?

ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr Deputy President,

(a) The Administration is aware that public concern has been expressed over the level of fees charged by lawyers in relation to some legal services. In my speech at the Opening of the Legal Year last month, I expressed the view that there is a danger that lawyers may soon price themselves out of the reach of a growing number of our citizens. I believe that, at present, many people may be deterred from obtaining legal services by the high cost involved.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1813

(b) I have regular meetings with the President of the Law Society, the Chairman of the Hong Kong Bar Association, and representatives of the Judiciary and of law teachers. I have raised the issue of fees at those meetings and I am exploring ways in which legal services can be made more accessible and affordable. For example, I have suggested that lay members should be included on the Costs Committee established under the Legal Practitioners Ordinance. Other options that are being considered include the removal of certain disputes from the courts to specialized tribunals and the transfer of some matters from the High Court to the District Court. The suggestion that lawyers should be urged to publish a list of their fees as guidelines to the public is a useful proposal and I will be glad to explore this with members of the legal profession.

(c) I have been informed by the Director of Legal Aid that legal aid services provided to the public are kept under regular review and adjusted to meet changed needs. For instance, since 1 July 1992, the financial eligibility of an applicant for legal aid is assessed on the new "financial capacity" basis (that is, aggregate of disposable annual income and disposable capital) and the current ceiling is $120,000. The Administration is also currently conducting a comprehensive review of the law, policy and practice governing the provision of legal aid services, including the adequacy of existing services and the appropriateness of the financial eligibility criteria in ensuring access to these services.

Land use change

16. MR PETER WONG asked: Will the Administration inform this Council of the number of cases in which change of land use has been approved under section 10 of the Country Parks Ordinance during the last five years and supply a brief account of the nature of such approvals?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, section 10 of the Country Parks Ordinance should be used to control new development on leased land and of private property in areas covered by a draft plan of a proposed country park. Its application is thus limited as regards both time and land affected. The last time a proposed country park was gazetted and consequently designated was 1979, well before the five-year period specified in the question.

1814 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 First Registration Tax on private cars

17. DR LAM KUI-CHUN asked: Will the Administration inform this Council of:

(a) the rates of the First Registration Tax on private cars and the number of new private cars registered in each of the years 1988 to 1992;

(b) the proportion of new private cars to the total number of motor vehicles registered for the first time in each of these years;

(c) the policy objectives in setting the rate of the First Registration Tax on new private cars at the present level; and

(d) whether the objectives referred to in (c) above are being achieved; if not, what is the rationale for continuing with the policy?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr Deputy President,

(a)

No. of new private

Year First registration tax

cars registered

1988 Car value*under $20,000 : 70% 24 281 Car value*under $30,000 : 80%

Car value*over $30,000 : 90%

1989 - ditto - 28 097

1990 Car value*under $30,000 : 80% 28 926 Car value*$30,000-$60,000 : 90%

Car value*over $60,000 : 100%

1991 Car value*under $30,000 : 90% 31 131 Car value*$30,000-$60,000 : 105%

Car value*over $60,000 : 120%

1992 - ditto - 41 878 * Car value is based on cost, insurance and freight only.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1815 (b)

Year

New

private cars

Total motor vehicles registered for the first time

Proportion (%)

(a) (b) (a)/(b)

1988 24 281 48 741 49.8

1989 28 097 51 805 54.2

1990 28 926 51 945 55.7

1991 31 131 53 457 58.2

1992 41 878 67 539 62.0

(c) The objective is to contain the growth in numbers of private cars to an acceptable level, having regard to road conditions and the additional traffic that can be absorbed by planned road projects. First Registration Tax is also a significant source of government revenue, accounting for $3.4 billion or about 3% of total revenue in 1991-92.

(d) Raising the First Registration Tax and annual licence fee levels has proved quite effective in the past in regulating the growth in numbers of private cars. However, vehicle ownership is rising again as a result of increasing affluence, and the effectiveness of the current rates of FRT and annual licence fee in containing car ownership is being gradually eroded. We are monitoring the situation carefully before deciding what further measures might be needed to maintain a free flow of traffic on our roads. In addition, as the Financial Secretary announced in his Budget speech on 4 March 1992, the Administration is considering amendments to the FRT Ordinance to reduce the scope for avoidance of the tax payable, and hence ensure that FRT remains effective both in transport management and fiscal terms.

Traffic congestion

18. DR SAMUEL WONG asked: With the recent sharp increase in the number of cars using the already congested roads in Hong Kong, will the Government inform this Council:

1816 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

(a) what measures, other than the punitive ones of raising First Registration Tax and annual licence fee, the Government would contemplate to ease the traffic congestion; and

(b) how much the Government have spent in road construction and improvement work in the past three years in order to ease congestion on the roads and what the current budget is for such work?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr Deputy President,

(a) We aim to ease traffic congestion by:

(i) expanding and upgrading public transport services so as to provide an attractive alternative to private car usage;

(ii) building new roads and improving existing roads; and

(iii) better management of road space, so as to maximize usage and give priority to the mass carriers.

(b) The Government spent $8.6 billion on road construction and improvements in the last three years. The budget for such work in the current financial year is $4.2 billion.

Employees Retraining Scheme

19. MR TIK CHI-YUEN asked (in Chinese): Regarding the Employees Retraining Scheme, will the Government inform this Council of:

(a) the enrolment and attendance rates of the respective retraining courses;

(b) the number of trainees who have completed the courses; the number that have secured employment in the field directly related to the courses they have completed, and of these, how many have subsequently switched to other unrelated jobs; and

(c) any change in the trainees' salary upon completion of the retraining courses, with a breakdown by salary range and the number of trainees?

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1817 SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr Deputy President,

(a) Up to 29 January 1993, the overall enrolment rate for the courses organized under the Employees Retraining Scheme was about 78%. 92% of the retrainees attained an attendance rate of over 90%. Detailed figures are at the Annex.

(b) As at 29 January 1993, 358 retrainees had completed retraining courses. Of these:

(i) 138 did not require the job placement services of the Labour Department and no information is available on the nature of the jobs they have presumably secured;

(ii) the remaining 220 were provided with job placement services by the Labour Department and other training bodies. Of these:

(1) 88 were successfully placed, mostly in jobs directly relevant to their retraining;

(2) 75 eventually secured, by themselves, jobs which might or might not be directly relevant to their retraining; and

(3) 57 were still awaiting placement.

No information is available on subsequent changes of employment, if any, on the part of the retrainees.

(c) The majority of the retrainees claimed to be unemployed or under-employed immediately prior to retraining. The salaries or wages earned by the 88 retrainees who have been successfully placed by the Labour Department and other bodies range from $3,500 to $7,200 per month. Similar information is not available in respect of the other retrainees as they are not obliged to provide such information to the Labour Department and most of them have chosen not to do so.

1818 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 Annex

EMPLOYEES RETRAINING SCHEME

ENROLMENT AND COMPLETION RATES OF TRAINING COURSES

(Up to 29 JANUARY 93)

Percentage of

Course

Capacity per class x no. of

classes

No. of

retrainees admitted

No. of

retrainees completing training

Enrolment rate (%)

trainees with attendance rates of

over 90%

Hotel housekeeping cleaning services

Basic retail sales

techniques

Computerised Chinese typesetting

15 x 3 39 38 86.7 97.4 20 x 2 22 22 55.0 100.0 12 x 1 12 10 100.0 83.3

Print finishing 12 x 1 7 7 58.3 100.0 Chinese data entry 20 x 4 80 77 100.0 96.2

Shipping and

documentation for

clothing industry

Preparation of production order

15 x 3 45 45 100.0 100.0 15 x 1 4 3 26.7 75.0

Sample-making 20 x 3 36 33 60.0 91.7 In-line Q.C. inspection 15 x 1 7 7 46.7 100.0 Garment fitting alteration 15 x 3 37 34 82.2 91.9 Junior cook (roasted food) 20 x 2 37 34 92.5 91.9

Basic techniques for waiters/waitresses in Chinese restaurants

Regular courses offered by statutory training authorities

20 x 2 23 21 57.5 91.3

449 349 331 77.7 94.8 N.A* 40 27 N.A* 67.5

Total 389 358 92.0#

* Classes comprise retrainees as well as other students

# Overall average

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1819 Hospital Authority's staffing

20. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Chinese): In view of the findings of a survey conducted by the Public Doctors Association, revealing that over 80% of the Hospital Authority doctors who responded to the survey were not satisfied with the performance of the Hospital Authority and were planning to leave their posts in the next three to five years, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) what measures, such as conducting a survey, it would take to ascertain the career commitment of the doctors and nursing staff to the Hospital Authority and their views on how hospital services should be improved;

(b) whether there are any specific plans in hand to retain serving medical staff; and

(c) what specific measures would be taken to recruit replacements and train up serving staff to fill vacancies arising from the departure of experienced doctors?

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: The wastage rates of medical and nursing staff working in the public sector have improved since the Hospital Authority took over the management and control of all public hospitals in December 1991. The average wastage rates for doctors and nurses in 1992 were 8% and 10% respectively, compared with 10% and 11% for ex-government hospitals and 24% and 14% for ex-subvented hospitals in 1990.

As part of an on-going effort to strengthen its communication with staff, the Hospital Authority will shortly be conducting an opinion survey among all professional staff, including doctors and nurses, on various aspects of their work including career commitment and suggestions on future reforms.

Opportunities for professional and managerial training have been enhanced, both in terms of quality and scope, to attract and retain staff. During the period from April 1992 to January 1993, over 900 doctors have received professional training through overseas programmes, conferences and local courses. In addition, 245 doctors have attended in house management development modules organized by the Hospital Authority.

The remuneration package designed for Hospital Authority staff and the adoption of a promotion policy with greater emphasis on merit rather than seniority will also contribute towards better staff retention.

The Hospital Authority anticipates that there will be sufficient manpower to cope with the wastage of medical staff. Local graduates will continue to be recruited at the junior level while serving officers are being provided with further training to acquire the necessary skills and knowledge for vacancies at a

1820 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

more senior level arising from the departure of experienced staff. Furthermore, overseas recruitment will be conducted as and when necessary if suitable candidates are not available locally to fill any specialist posts.

Motion

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS

THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY moved the following motion:

"That Standing Orders 11 (Order of Business at a Sitting) and 12 (The Order Paper) be suspended at a sitting of this Council on 19 February 1993 to enable the election of the President and the President's deputy of the Council."

FINANCIAL SECRETARY: Mr Deputy President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Governor announced in his policy address that he wished to hand over as soon as possible the responsibilities of presiding over this Council to a President elected from amongst Members. Arrangements have been made, as Members wished, for the election of the President to take place at a formal sitting on 19 February 1993.

The Governor, as President of this Council, has appointed 19 February 1993 for a sitting for electing the President and other related business. Standing Orders 11 and 12 will not apply to that sitting and will have to be suspended.

My Deputy President, I beg to move.

Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.

First Reading of Bills

AUDIT (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993

BOUNDARY AND ELECTION COMMISSION BILL

Bills read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1821 Second Reading of Bills

AUDIT (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993

THE SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Audit Ordinance."

He said: Mr Deputy President, I move that the Audit (Amendment) Bill 1993 be read a Second time.

The purpose of this Bill is simply to make technical amendments to references in the Audit Ordinance and the Employees Retraining Ordinance to "the Governor as President of the Legislative Council". These references need to be amended because the Governor will no longer be the President of this Council. Amendments to the Letters Patent and Royal Instructions to effect that change have been approved by the Privy Council and will come into operation next week (18 and 19 February 1993) respectively.

References to the "Governor as President of the Legislative Council" at present appear in the Audit Ordinance and the Employees Retraining Ordinance, in both instances in relation to the Director of Audit's examination of accounts and submission of reports. They are, therefore, dealt with in one Bill, the Audit (Amendment) Bill 1993.

The Bill does not seek to change any of the principles and philosophies currently reflected in the Audit Ordinance (and the Employees Retraining Ordinance). As far as the terms are concerned, unless the context or logical procedure otherwise require, all references to "the Governor" are taken to mean "the Governor qua Governor", and all references to "the Governor as President" are taken to mean "the President of the Legislative Council".

Nevertheless, some changes are necessary for the rationalization of the procedures leading to the laying of audit reports and related documents in this Council as set out in the relevant sections of the Ordinances. Let me describe these briefly.

Clause 3 amends section 12 of the Audit Ordinance to provide that reports prepared by the Director of Audit in respect of his examination and audit of public accounts should be submitted to the President within the period specified in the Ordinance or such longer period as the Governor may determine. Thereafter, it will be the President who will be empowered to vary the period within which the report and related statements shall be laid before Legislative Council and submitted to the Secretary of State. It is also the President who will be empowered to vary the period within which the report of the Public Accounts Committee shall be laid before Legislative Council and submitted to the Secretary of State. To achieve this, the reference to "the Governor as President of the Legislative Council" in section 12(1)(b) and section 12(3)(a) are

1822 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

amended to "the President" and the references to "the Governor" in section 12(2) and (2A) are also amended to "the President".

Clause 5 amends section 16(2) of the Audit Ordinance to provide that the Governor, upon receipt of a report submitted to him under subsection (1) if so requested by the Director, should authorize the Director to transmit a copy of same to the President to enable the latter to proceed in accordance with section 12(2) and (2A). The amendment is necessary to rationalize the procedure in the circumstances where the Governor is the person receiving the report but not the one to lay it before this Council under section 12(2) and (2A) as amended.

As mentioned earlier, a consequential amendment to the Employees Retraining Ordinance is required, and this is made in clause 6.

Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

BOUNDARY AND ELECTION COMMISSION BILL

THE SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to provide for the establishment of the Boundary and Election Commission as a body corporate, for the purpose of making recommendations regarding the delineation of geographical constituencies and demarcation of their boundaries and to be responsible for the conduct and supervision of elections, and matters incidental thereto; and to make consequential and other amendments."

He said: Mr Deputy President, I move that the Boundary and Election Commission Bill be read the Second time. This Bill seeks to establish a statutory body with the responsibilities of making recommendations to the Governor on geographical constituency boundaries, organizing and overseeing the conduct of elections to the three tiers of our representative institutions.

Both during the run-up to and after the 1991 elections, there were extensive calls within the community for an independent body to oversee the electoral process. This was echoed by the Select Committee on Legislative Council Elections, whose recommendations were endorsed by this Council last July. The Administration is most grateful to the Select Committee for its recommendations which, indeed, form the basis of the present Bill.

The demarcation of constituency boundaries and the arrangements for elections are often contentious tasks. To ensure that elections are not only fairly and properly conducted, but are also perceived to be so, the Administration agrees with the views of the community and this Council that these tasks should be entrusted to an independent and impartial body. The proposed Boundary and Election Commission will be precisely that. It will be politically neutral, and its

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1823 impartiality will be ensured through the appointment process and its modus operandi.

The Commission will comprise three members, all of whom are to be appointed by the Governor. They will be people of high social standing who are known to be impartial and have no political affiliation. This Council, too, will have a role to play in the appointment process: one member of the Commission shall be nominated by the future President of this Council.

The making of recommendations on constituency boundaries is an important and sensitive task. For this reason, the Bill provides for an elaborate system of checks and balances to ensure the transparency and integrity of the process. The Commission will have to follow statutory criteria in making its recommendations. The Commission's provisional recommendations will be published for public consultation before putting its final recommendations to the Governor. Within 30 days of the receipt of the Commission's report, the Governor will cause it to be laid before the Legislative Council. The procedure will ensure that the Commission's recommendations are open to the wider community. Whilst decisions on the delineation of geographical constituency boundaries will be made by the Governor in Council, Members will still have the opportunity to scrutinize the subsidiary legislation concerned when it is subsequently put before this Council for enactment.

The next round of elections will start with the District Board elections in September 1994. This is barely 19 months away. If the Commission is to have adequate time to make proper preparations for the elections, the enabling legislation will need to be enacted as quickly as possible, and certainly not later than the end of the current legislative Session in July this year.

Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).

CHIROPRACTORS REGISTRATION BILL

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 27 May 1992 Question on Second Reading proposed.

MR ERIC LI: Mr Deputy President, in moving the Second Reading of the Chiropractors Registration Bill on 27 May 1992, the Secretary for Health and Welfare highlighted the concern about the Chinese title for chiropractors. The Administration proposed in the Bill the use of the term "脊骨治療學家". The Chiropractors' Association considered however that as primary health care professionals, they should be addressed as either "脊骨神經科

醫生" or "脊醫".

1824 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

The ad hoc group set up to study the Bill had carefully considered the arguments advanced on this issue. Clarifications were sought from the Administration on whether the use of the term "醫生" or its short form "醫" by the chiropractors would constitute a breach of the existing law. Members were advised that any person other than those registered under the Medical Registration Ordinance who assumed the title(s) "西醫" or "醫生" would contravene the law if the assumption of the said title(s) would mislead the public into believing that he was a medical practitioner registered under the Ordinance. Nevertheless, the facts of individual case have to be examined. On the other hand, the act of merely adopting the title "醫 " did not contravene the existing provisions in the Medical Registration Ordinance, in particular section 28 thereof.

Against this background, members of the ad hoc group unanimously agreed that the title of "脊骨神經科醫生" would not be appropriate for chiropractors.

Views were however divided on whether they should be called "脊醫". Some were justifiably concerned that the title "脊醫" could mislead the public into thinking that chiropractors are registered medical practitioners specialized in treating spinal problems. However, the great majority of the ad hoc group members decided to support the use of the term "脊醫". There are other health care professions which uses the term "醫", such as dentists "牙醫" and Chinese herbalists "㆗醫". Members reckoned the need for alleviating any public misconception about the term, and the Administration had assured us that publicity in this respect would be arranged upon the passage of the Bill. Members also believed that both the medical profession and the Chiropractors' Association could play an active role in assisting such publicity efforts.

Members discussed with the Administration about the need for including a definition of the practice of chiropractic in the legislation. The Administration had explained that ambiguities arising from the practice of chiropractic would be dealt with by the Chiropractors Council in the discharge of its duties. Furthermore, a definition which is too narrow would result in more ambiguities and be subject to abuse. As an alternative, members agreed that the Long Title of the Bill be amended to give a brief description of the sort of practitioners covered by the Bill. The Long Title would serve as an indication of the legislative intention and help to distinguish the practice of traditional medical practitioners and that of chiropractors.

Another issue considered by the ad hoc group concerns the composition of the Chiropractors Council. The Bill provides for a balanced composition of five chiropractors and five non-chiropractors. Members discussed with the Administration the possibility of giving chiropractors a majority on the council. The Administration advised that chiropractic is a small profession in Hong Kong at the present time, with only 24 practitioners on the last count. To guard against the risk of protectionism, it would be necessary to maintain a balance between professional input and the public as well as patient interest.

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Furthermore, a membership of five chiropractors would be a substantial percentage of the entire profession. The ad hoc group accepted the Administration's explanation. However, members reckoned that the intention of the Bill is to encourage the profession to thrive. In the long run when the membership of the profession has grown to strength, the situation ought to be reviewed in order to enhance greater self-regulation. The ad hoc group had also suggested to the Administration that there are merits in having a medical practitioner on the council to provide advice, where necessary, on areas which might affect public health. The Administration had agreed to the suggestion, which would be dealt with administratively through the appointment of "non-chiropractor" members to the council.

The ad hoc group had also suggested some amendments to the Bill concerning disciplinary proceedings to safeguard patient interest. Some textual amendments will also be moved by the Administration to the Chinese version of the Bill.

The Chiropractors' Association has written to members of the ad hoc group giving their full backing to the Bill and the proposed amendments.

With these remarks and a sincere vote of thanks to members of the ad hoc group and the Administration for their hard work, patience and problem solving approach, and to the representatives of associations concerned for their valuable views, I support the Bill subject to the amendments to be moved at the Committee stage.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr Deputy President, the medical profession as the leader of the health care team has taken upon us a responsibility to ensure that our public who seeks health and health care is not only given the best of care but also given a maximum safety protection. It is with this in mind that the medical profession strongly support and recommend the registration of chiropractors. As a result of registration, the public who seeks the service of the chiropractors is properly protected by law. Being a registered profession, only bona fide chiropractors are allowed to practise that profession. The quacks will therefore be weeded out, again for the protection of the public.

But it is on the need for the maximum protection of the public that I stand here today, Mr Deputy President, to represent the medical profession to express our strongest reservation on two areas of the Bill before us.

Mr Deputy President, chiropractors are not registered medical practitioners. They do not even use the same principle of western medical practice that our public has been so used to for so long in their care to their patients. For years, they have been unlawfully using the title "醫生" or worse still "脊骨神經科醫生" implying they are a specialized group of medical practitioners. This has produced extensive confusion on the public and in some incidences complication that needs proper subsequent treatment.

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The proposal of their Chinese title of "脊骨治療學家" in the Bill was considered by the medical profession as an appropriate one. The suggestion to change the Chinese title to "脊醫" and the subsequent approval by the majority in the ad hoc group come as a dismay if not a disappointment to the medical profession. For it is our sincere belief that such a terminology makes a mockery out of the principle and, worse of all in these days of the very common usage of abbreviation in Chinese, the word "脊醫" will in no time be construed by the chiropractic profession and the public to be a short form of "脊骨神經科

醫生" — a grave disservice to the public.

The second area of concern is the composition of the Chiropractors Council. This council (the Chiropractors Council) will determine on its own the code of practice, the scope of work of the chiropractors and their professional discipline. It should be mentioned that the current chiropractic profession stands at 24 in number. Whilst the medical profession fully subscribe to the concept of professional autonomy, we do believe that for the sake of protection of the public, the council of such a small group of profession yet entrusted with such a power should at least in its formative years include the minimum of one registered medical practitioner in that council. Mr Deputy President, in no way should this be seen as the medical profession controlling the chiropractors. Instead, the presence of a leader of the health care team can act to co-ordinate and advise the different aspects in the care of the sick.

Should this Bill regrettably be passed in the amended form, may I appeal to the Administration for the sake of achieving the best protection to the public to confirm the following points:

(1) That the Chinese term "脊醫" be in no way implied as an abbreviation of "脊骨神 經科醫生".

(2) That through administrative means at least one representative from the medical profession be appointed into the Chiropractors Council.

(3) That the Administration would make positive move to ensure that the title "醫生" or the likes be made explicit for registered medical and dental practitioners through amendments to the Medical Registration Ordinance.

Mr Deputy President, I support the registration of chiropractors but would oppose the amendments in this Bill.

DR LAM KUI-CHUN: Mr Deputy President, chiropractics is effective in treating ailments of the spine. Hitherto, it has been relegated to the fringe of medicine. With passage of this Bill into law, and with legal authorization to use the Chinese word for medical doctor "醫" in the chiropractor's title, the discipline moves a step towards centre stage. From now on, the public would

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1827 likely accept a chiropractor with greater trust. It is on this heightened trust that I now speak.

A recent survey in Hong Kong commissioned by the Hong Kong Medical Association has revealed that, in the understanding of the local public, the Chinese title "脊醫", literally translated as "spine doctor", is a fully qualified doctor who specializes in diseases of the spine. Experience shows that patients in Hong Kong attending any "doctor" would seek treatment from the same "doctor" for concurrent illnesses as well, especially when the complaints seem minor. The benefit and harm which such a practice may incur from chiropractic treatment depends on what the "spine doctors" would acknowledge as beyond their sphere of competence.

Mr Deputy President, some time ago a chiropractor publicly claimed in a radio interview that appendicitis and ectopic pregnancies can be healed by chiropractics. In the course of scrutiny of this Bill, I personally asked the chairman of the Chiropractics Association what he would do if requested to manage a patient with abdominal pain. Mr Deputy President, abdominal pain is the presenting complaint of acute appendicitis and of ectopic pregnancy. Both conditions are surgical emergencies. To my question the chiropractors' representative did not even inquire where the pain was most intense, whether it was severe, nor whether the patient has fever. He simply replied that he would examine and manipulate the patient's spine. In a real-life situation for a patient with ectopic pregnancy this would delay effective treatment and cause her to go into shock. Her life would be put in danger. Mr Deputy President, as long as chiropractics remains at the fringe of medicine, the risks of this sequence happening would be small. Now that this discipline is moved towards centre stage by the passage of this Bill, and that the title of "doctor" is conferred on its practitioners, the risks would be increased.

The question now is what should be done to protect the public from increased risks to its health as a result of this law. Ideally, a patient with any complaint should be first seen by a practitioner with comprehensive medical training. If a spinal condition is found, chiropractic treatment may be authorized. Unfortunately, existing practice in Hong Kong is not like this.

As a solution, I believe the Administration must fall back on the principle that increased privileges entail increased responsibilities. If the chiropractors from now on may have the heightened privilege of being entrusted with initial management of spinal and non spinal conditions, then they must assume the responsibility of recognizing diseases that are beyond their sphere of competence (especially surgical emergencies), and promptly refer them to appropriate health care practitioners.

In practical terms, the following steps must be taken:

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(1) The Chiropractors' Council must be charged with the responsibility of confining the professional activities of its members strictly to its sphere of competence.

(2) If any chiropractor oversteps this confine, the Chiropractors' Council must have the power to take disciplinary action in the interest of public safety.

(3) The Chiropractors' Council must contain sufficient people of the appropriate background and calibre including a fully qualified medical doctor to be able to oversee the overall practice of chiropractics from the public's angle.

(4) After appropriate time lapse, say five years from enactment of this law, a review should be made to either reconfirm chiropractics as a form of primary health care or confine the principal to a referral service from general medical practitioners.

Mr Deputy President, with some caution, I support the Bill.

MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, I do not altogether agree with Dr LEONG Che-hung that the medical profession is the leader of the health care team. I believe that we are different professions complementing one another in areas where one or another profession happens to be deficient. I also believe that within the health care sector, the dentists, Chinese herbalists, nurses and other health care professionals are important members of the contemporary health care team. Perhaps in certain circumstances, we have to acknowledge the clinical leadership of the medical profession.

Personally, I am not worried that the public will mistake registered chiropractors for general practitioners with a bachelor's degree in medicine and surgery. I believe that now is the time to really educate the public, so that they will understand what "registered chiropractors" are and what services they will provide. I sincerely hope that today is the day that sees the beginning of a positive education for the public.

Thank you, Mr Deputy President.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr Deputy President, I am grateful to Members who have spoken and to the ad hoc group for their very detailed consideration of this Bill.

The purpose of this Bill is to provide for the establishment of a Chiropractors Council to be responsible for registration, setting of standard, regulation of conduct and administration of discipline for chiropractors. This is part of our continuing efforts to register progressively key health care

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professions to ensure high standards of service, to enhance the status of the health care professionals and, above all, to safeguard the interests of our patients.

Concern has been expressed in some quarters over the Chinese title for chiropractors. Let me say that, as far as the Administration is concerned, we maintain an open mind on the Chinese title, for as long as it is legally acceptable and does not cause confusion to the public. I have been advised by the Attorney General's Chambers that there is no legal objection to the use of the term "脊醫" by chiropractors. Moreover, I have been assured by Members during discussions in the ad hoc group that the term "脊醫" would not, and should not, confuse the public, nor be misinterpreted as abbreviation for "脊骨神經科醫生

". I respectfully defer to Members' views.

As regards the concern over the membership of the Chiropractors Council, the matter has been thoroughly discussed at the ad hoc group meetings. The Bill, as it now stands, provides for appointment by the Governor of five chiropractors, four non-chiropractors and one public officer to the Chiropractors Council. There is therefore room for appointing a medical practitioner to facilitate interface and mutual understanding between the two health care professions.

Mr Deputy President, subject to its passage, this Bill should provide a satisfactory framework for regulation of chiropractors and for the proper safeguard of patients' interests.

Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.

Bill read the Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).

AIR POLLUTION CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL 1992

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 24 June 1992 Question on Second Reading proposed.

DR SAMUEL WONG: Mr Deputy President, I rise to support the resumption of the Second Reading of the Air Pollution Control (Amendment) Bill 1992. Before I outline the conclusions of the deliberations of the ad hoc group to scrutinize the Bill, I would first like to give some brief background to the Bill.

In essence, the Bill seeks to introduce stricter controls on asbestos, to tighten up the control on undertakings which have been granted exemption, to

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licence the new specified processes and to allow the issuance of technical memoranda (TM) to control air pollution. Changes are also to be introduced to the existing provisions relating to the Appeal Board, and the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands would be empowered to make regulations and to improve methods and standards for the determination of air pollution.

The ad hoc group set up by the then Legislative Council In-House to examine the Bill has held 11 meetings including three meetings with the Administration and a meeting with the industrial and trade associations. The ad hoc group has received six submissions including five from the industrial and trade associations and one from an environmental concern group. The group also met the representative of the Centre of Environmental Technology and received his views on the Bill.

The representations received were generally in support of the intention of the Bill. The main concern of the industrialists relates to the economic implications in the present definition of Best Practicable Means (BPM), the proposed changes to the appeal procedures, the power given to the Authority and the grace period to remove the exemption.

On BPM, the industry claimed that there was no statutory recognition of the economic implications in its present definition. They suggested that consideration should be given to change BPM to "best available technology not entailing excessive cost" (BATNEEC). The Administration explained that a broad interpretation of BPM had all along been taken. The present definition of BPM would give the maximum flexibility to the Administration to implement the provisions of the Bill. To ease the concern of the industry, the Administration has undertaken to adopt a more transparent process in working out the control requirements. The term BATNEEC was adopted in the United Kingdom in early 1992. It may, in reality, represent a different level and means of control and may not be the best solution for Hong Kong. At the group's request, the Administration agreed to review the experience of the United Kingdom after one year to see if there was a need to change BPM to BATNEEC.

As regards the promulgation of a TM under the Bill, members noted that the legal effect of making a specific statement in the law that the TM was not subsidiary legislation would put beyond doubt that the TM was not to be subject to challenge in courts. Whilst members shared the Administration's view that time and resources should not be wasted in arguing purely technical matters, there should be adequate checks and balances. The Administration assured members that the TM would undergo a comprehensive consultation process with the concerned parties before it was to be submitted to the Legislative Council for approval. In actual effect, there would not be any reduction of the Legislative Council supervision in the working and issuing of a TM since the procedures set out for the promulgation and amendments to a TM are equivalent to that for subsidiary legislation. Members also had some reservations about the power given to the Secretary to delay the implementation of the amendments to

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the TM by the Legislative Council. Noting that the proposed provision merely aims to give more time to the Secretary to make the preparations, if necessary, members accepted the Administration's undertaking to specify the timing of implementation whenever an amendment was made to the TM.

On the question of the grace period, the Administration has made it very clear that the intention was to remove the exemption in phases, over a maximum period of four years. Further consultation with the affected industry would be conducted before exemption is to be removed and a grace period of at least 12 months from the date of gazette would be provided under the law. Members are satisfied with the explanation.

Members shared the industry's concern over the proposed changes to the existing provision on appeal procedures. Members generally felt that there was some ambiguity in the expression in clause 23 "shall refuse to determine an appeal ..... unless". According to the Administration's explanation, the existing appeal provisions were possible to be subject to exploitation by unscrupulous persons as delaying tactics. The new approach would facilitate the Appeal Board to make a decision on whether or not to hear a case without going through the full hearing process. The legal effects of the new formula and the existing formula adopted in the Noise Control Ordinance are basically the same. Nevertheless, the Administration is prepared to review the appeal provisions together with the BPM after the first year of implementation. Recognizing that the legislative intention was not to introduce appeal procedures which are radically different from those in the existing Noise Control Ordinance, members requested the Administration to give a suitable explanation of the proposed new section 31(5) in the speech so that the legislative intention would be "on record" for public information and could also be referred to, if necessary, in any relevant court proceedings. As a related issue, the Administration also accepted members' suggestion to provide in the Bill a channel for appeals against the Authority's order as to the payment of costs in disciplinary inquiries under the new provisions relating to asbestos control. I shall move an amendment during the Committee stage.

Apart from the above, members have also discussed some other issues on asbestos such as the impact of the Bill on public hospitals, method of calculating asbestos, the requirement and liability imposed on owners to investigate for asbestos and implement asbestos management plans.

There were worries among members that some subsidized schools and ex-subvented hospitals run by charitable organizations might have financial difficulties in meeting the additional costs arising from the new requirements on asbestos control. After further clarification with the Administration, members were pleased to note that capital expenditure for removal of asbestos from all public hospitals under the management and control of the Hospital Authority, including those previously operated by the Tung Wah Group of Hospitals, would be borne by the Government. Another concern is about public hospital incinerators, that is, whether they can comply with the new requirements if the

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Bill is enacted. The Administration, in response, confirmed that a plan was in hand for a Centralized Incineration Facility (CIF) to deal with special waste including medical waste. It is not envisaged that the existing pathological incinerators in hospitals would come under licensing control as specified processes under the revised First Schedule of the Bill before the new CIF comes into operation. Members accepted the proposed arrangements.

For the purpose of defining "asbestos containing material", the method of calculating whether any material is made with (or contains) more than 1% asbestos is to be "approved by the Secretary". Members were concerned whether any safeguards and form of supervision would be available so that those affected would have confidence in the method of calculation. The Administration clarified that only methods commonly accepted as proven asbestos counting methods by international authorities would be adopted and analytical results from asbestos laboratories accredited by Hong Kong Laboratory Accreditation Scheme would be accepted.

Members also noted the concern of the Real Estate Developers Association of Hong Kong (REDA) about two issues, that is, the requirement and liability imposed on an owner to carry out asbestos investigation surveys and to implement asbestos management plans. The Administration explained that the proposed section aims to provide for controls over the release of environmental asbestos. The control scheme for sensitive use premises (for example, school) requires that the existence of asbestos containing material in such premises be checked, and the preparation and implementation of an asbestos management plan/abatement plan be enforced, if asbestos is found. For asbestos works in premises in general the control scheme is that if the owner of any premises knows or should reasonably suspect that any intended work to be carried out in his premises will involve the handling or use of asbestos containing material his statutory obligations are triggered off unless the asbestos work is exempted under new section 69(2) as very low-risk. The Bill would only impose liability on an owner/agent for failure to engage registered personnel in the implementation of asbestos management plans, failure to follow steps or measures specified in an asbestos management plan or failure to comply with the Authority's stipulated control measures.

Lastly, since there is a right of appeal under the Bill, members considered that the Administration Committee, which was set up to supervise a registration system of qualified workers in the asbestos control industry, should be required to provide reasons for deferring or refusing an application for registration. I shall be moving a Committee stage amendment to this effect.

To conclude, the protection of our environment requires the concerted efforts of all parties and I am encouraged by the willingness that has been shown by industry to help to control pollution. I hope that the Administration would continue to make its unfailing efforts to combat pollution and improve our environment. It is my pleasure to support the Bill.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1833

MR PETER WONG: Mr Deputy President, in rising to support the Second Reading of the Air Pollution Control (Amendment) Bill 1992, I wish to air the various concerns I have as Chairman of the Hospital Authority's Supporting Services Development Committee. Concern centres around the problems of control over the use of asbestos as well as the proposed Central Incinerator Facility to dispose of medical waste. As far as the asbestos problem is concerned, we all know that our hospitals may have asbestos in the form of insulation installed in the past. This problem may be well under control so far as the ex government hospitals are concerned. However, one cannot say the same for the ex subvented hospitals. These were under severe financial constraints, and under the then available technology, asbestos had been put into their buildings. Unlike their government counterparts, they do not have the luxury of the Architectural Services Department consistently looking after design and construction. I would welcome the confirmation of the Secretary that the Government will support in full the cost of any remedial work required in respect of asbestos for hospitals under the Hospital Authority.

I myself have reservations about whether there are sufficient number of contractors in Hong Kong who have the technical expertise in order to first of all check on the asbestos problem, and secondly to carry out the remedial work. I say this based on personal contacts in Australia. When I made enquiries relating to the existence of such expertise in Australia, I found very much to my dismay that all my contacts that used to do such work in Australia are now without exception out of business because they were all being sued for faulty work. We also heard from Dr Stephen LAM of the Centre of Environmental Technology that his experience in the United States was that about half the work done for domestic households there was not carried out competently. Mr Deputy President, I would welcome the Administration's assurance that we do indeed have competent contractors and consultants in order to do the work that is set out in the Bill. Asbestos is better left alone if at the moment it does not cause a problem rather than to have incompetent personnel to deal with it. Since this expertise problem is the most controversial section of the Bill, I would caution the Administration to proceed cautiously.

My other main concern is over the proposed sections on incinerators which would at one go make all the existing incinerators in all our hospitals obsolete and have to be closed down. It was proposed by the consultants that all medical waste arising would have to be packaged and transported to the central facility in Tuen Mun for incineration at the cost of some $34 million at current prices being chargeable to the Hospital Authority and the Department of Health. These proposals are being keenly challenged by the experts at the Authority and I would be pleased to hear from the Secretary that there is no intention to activate the sections over incinerators for hospitals until the whole matter has been thrashed out. I also think the Hong Kong public deserves a confirmation from the Administration that the present mode of disposal of medical waste will not pose health hazards to the Hong Kong public. Any alarm caused unnecessarily by the Bill will not be in the overall public interest.

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MR LAU CHIN-SHEK (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, this Bill is proposing a number of constructive arrangements for control of air pollution. Here I should like to mention briefly some imperfections of the current amendment, to which I hope the authorities concerned will give due attention.

I think that the Administration is still taking a relatively passive approach in tackling pollution caused by asbestos released in the course of demolishing private buildings. It has also overlooked the seriousness of the problem and neglected the health of workers involved. The amendment Bill as it stands still falls short of bringing about a comprehensive improvement to the problem.

I should now like to make two suggestions in respect of regulation of the removal of asbestos:

(1) To enact legislation to require all owners or landlords of properties to submit an inspection report by an engineering consultant confirming whether or not there is asbestos in buildings to be demolished before the demolition works can proceed. Any works to demolish a building will be illegal in the absence of a submitted inspection report.

(2) To require all workers involved in asbestos removal works to have an annual medical check-up and receive safety training.

A number of old districts in Hong Kong such as Sheung Wan, Yau Ma Tei and Mongkok are due for renewal in the near future. Since many old buildings will be demolished as a result of these renewal plans, the question of pollution caused by asbestos should be given due attention in order to protect the safety and health of workers and neighbouring residents.

With these remarks, Mr Deputy President, I hope the authorities concerned will review this problem as soon as possible. Thank you.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Deputy President, I am grateful to the Honourable Dr Samuel WONG, the convenor of the ad hoc group on the Air Pollution Control (Amendment) Bill, for supporting the Bill, and to the other members of the ad hoc group for their careful and detailed consideration of this proposed legislation over the past eight months.

In the course of the ad hoc group's deliberations a number of issues and concerns raised by them, by industry and by other interested parties were discussed which I would like to refer to today. They relate to the definition of Best Practicable Means; the Technical Memorandum to be issued under the Air Pollution Control Ordinance; the removal of some exemptions currently allowed under the Ordinance; the question of how to deal with asbestos in public

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1835

buildings; and the appeal procedure provided for under the Ordinance. I shall also move an amendment during the Committee stage.

Best Practicable Means (BPM)

First, the definition of "Best Practicable Means" (BPM). It is not a purpose of this Bill to propose an amendment to the definition of this term which is already included in section 2 of the Air Pollution Control Ordinance. However, during discussions on the Bill, some concern was expressed that the existing definition does not contain words which address the cost implications of installing any air protection measures required. The Administration's view is that the present definition should be retained because BPM has been interpreted broadly to take account of financial viability, the availability of technology, the practice in other countries and any other factors which may be relevant to specific cases. We will continue to interpret BPM in this way, Mr Deputy President. The Administration has been applying licensing controls to specified processes based on these principles for over five years without any apparent problems. The need to change the definition has not therefore been established. However, the Administration will keep an open mind as to whether more appropriate terminology can be found and whether it should apply in Hong Kong.

Technical Memorandum

The purpose of the Technical Memorandum (TM) is to publish, for general information, the technical specifications that are required of a particular type of polluting operation if it is to meet the Air Quality Objectives. A TM also serves to avoid burdening the relevant Ordinance and subsidiary legislation with technical detail. A TM for issuing Air Pollution Abatement Notices to control air pollution from stationary polluting processes is now being prepared. As with TMs already issued under the Noise Control and Water Pollution Control Ordinances, full consultation with industry is being carried out. So far, comments have been received from the Federation of Hong Kong Industries, the Hong Kong General Chamber of Commerce, the Hong Kong Association of Textile Bleachers, Dyers, Printers and Finishers, the Hong Kong Productivity Council, the power companies and several cement companies. Their views are being considered by the Director of Environmental Protection. Under clause 27 of the Bill, the TM is required to be laid on the table of this Council and Members will have 28 days to consider it.

Removal of exemption

In turning to the question of exemptions, I would ask Members to note that the removal of any exemption of a specified process provided for in the proposed legislation will be phased over a four-year period. This is to allow ample time for consultation with the industries affected before the removal of their exempt status. A period of at least 12 months will be provided, from the date of formal notice in the Gazette under section 20AA(1), before the

1836 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

exempted status of a specified process is removed. This should enable detailed discussions between the Authority and the industries affected to take place, and for the industries to prepare themselves to overcome any difficulties that may arise.

Impacts of asbestos control on public hospitals

Mr Deputy President, one of the aims of the Amendment Bill is to provide for controls over the release of environmental asbestos from sensitive premises, for example hospitals. Under the proposed legislation, and by engaging the services of a registered asbestos consultant, the owners of "sensitive use" premises are required to check for the existence of material containing asbestos in their premises, to prepare a management plan or an abatement plan, and to implement the plan if asbestos is found. I am informed by my colleague, the Secretary for Health and Welfare, that any capital expenditure arising from the removal of asbestos from public hospitals under the management and control of the Hospital Authority, including those previously operated by the Tung Wah Group of Hospitals, will be borne by the Government.

I would like to refer to a number of other points raised by the Honourable Peter WONG and the Honourable LAU Chin-shek. First, as regards asbestos consultants. There are currently five accredited asbestos laboratories for testing materials for asbestos content, accredited by the Hong Kong Laboratory Accreditation Scheme run by the Industry Department. There are 39 asbestos consultants in Hong Kong. The Housing Department and the Architectural Services Department have hired asbestos consultants to do their work before and have had no problem in obtaining qualified candidates. The Occupational Safety and Health Council have organized training courses for supervisors and workers in asbestos work. So far over 100 workers have already taken this one-week intensive course. The Administration Committee to be set up under this Bill will oversee the registration of consultants, contractors and laboratories to ensure that they meet the required standards.

Second, as regards the disposal of clinical waste and pathological incinerators. Incinerating medical waste at a central facility is now standard practice in many countries, for example, the United Kingdom and the United States of America. The Administration is therefore planning to build a centralized incineration facility (CIF) in Hong Kong to deal with special waste including medical waste. The concern that existing pathological incinerators in hospitals will be closed down unnecessarily, when the CIF is commissioned and hospitals are advised to use the CIF, is, I believe, unfounded. We have assured the ad hoc group that, with the exception of the Pamela Youde Hospital incincerator, existing pathological incinerators will not come under licensing control as specified processes when the CIF comes on stream. And on that there is as yet no definite timing. And discussions, as the Honourable Peter WONG has mentioned, on this facility are continuing. But assuming it comes into

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being, the pathological incinerators will be closed down in phases according to a programme to be discussed with the Hospital Authority.

Third, as regards the protection of asbestos workers, or, should I say, workers in asbestos. The matter of training and refresher courses will be looked at by the Administration Committee. As for physical check-up for employees, the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Asbestos Special Regulation 1986 has provision in regulation 21 to require that all employers provide medical check-ups for workers handling asbestos within four months immediately preceding the commencement of employment and thereafter at intervals of not more than 12 months. The results of the check-ups have to be certified by medical practitioners. As for demolition contracts, the Bill will require all contractors to submit asbestos management plans. The Environmental Protection Department will receive a copy of the contractors' application for building works from the Buildings Ordinance Office and will carry out random checks and inspections to ensure compliance.

Appeal procedures

On the question of appeal procedures Mr Deputy President, the aim of clause 23 is to require an appellant to give a plausible reason to support an appeal so that the Appeal Board may decide quickly whether to hear the case before going through the full hearing process. This is to prevent the unscrupulous from exploiting the appeal mechanism merely as a tactic to delay the implementation of pollution abatement measures. The manner in which this clause is drafted, that is, in the active voice, is to make the provision clearer. There is no intention whatsoever to introduce appeal procedures which are radically different from those already in existence in other environmental legislation, such as the Noise Control Ordinance. The procedure will be reviewed after the first year of implementation.

Mr Deputy President, air pollution in Hong Kong is the subject of growing concern in our community and rightly so. The proposed legislation, which aims to tighten control on air pollution, is therefore an important move towards greater protection of the community's health. The legislation will be implemented in phases and in full consultation with parties affected. It is nevertheless another major step forward in our environmental programme.

Thank you, Mr Deputy President.

Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.

Bill read the Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).

1838 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 Committee stage of Bills

Council went into Committee.

CHIROPRACTORS REGISTRATION BILL

Clauses 8, 11, 13, 19, 21, 22, 25 and 27 were agreed to.

Clauses 1 and 2, heading of Part II, clauses 3, 5, 6, 9, 10, 14, 16, 20, 23 and 24

MR ERIC LI: Mr Chairman, I move that the clauses specified be amended as set out under my name in the paper circulated to Members.

Amendment to clause 16(3) is proposed to safeguard patient interest. The clause provides that two members of the Chiropractors Council be appointed for the purpose of determining whether a complaint alleging a disciplinary offence should be referred to the council. The ad hoc group has proposed that one of these two members must be a non chiropractor.

The other amendments concern the Chinese title for chiropractors. I have already explained during the Second Reading debate of the Bill the background to these amendments.

Mr Chairman, I propose to move.

Proposed amendments

Clause 1

That clause 1 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Clause 2

That clause 2 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Heading of Part II

That heading of part II be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1839 Clause 3

That clause 3 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Clause 5

That clause 5 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Clause 6

That clause 6 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Clause 9

That clause 9 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Clause 10

That clause 10 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Clause 14

That clause 14 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Clause 16

That clause 16 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

That clause 16(3) be amended, by adding "one of whom shall be a person appointed under section 3(2)(b)," after "purpose,".

1840 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 Clause 20

That clause 20 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Clause 23

That clause 23 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Clause 24

That clause 24 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Question on the amendments proposed, put and agreed to.

Question on clauses 1 and 2, heading of Part II, clauses 3, 5, 6, 9, 10, 14, 16, 20, 23 and 24, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.

Clauses 4, 7, heading of clause 26 and clause 26

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr Chairman, I move that the clauses specified be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.

These are all minor editorial amendments to the Chinese text of the Bill. The purpose is to clarify the meaning of the terms used and to maintain consistency in Chinese translation with other pieces of legislation.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Proposed amendments

Clause 4

That clause 4(3) be amended, by deleting "扺" and substituting "抵".

Clause 7

That clause 7(3) be amended, by deleting "管理局".

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1841 Heading of clause 26

That heading of clause 26 be amended, by deleting "委員會成員" and substituting "委員會 委員".

Clause 26

That clause 26(1) be amended, by deleting "誠意㆞" and substituting "真誠㆞". Question on the amendments proposed, put and agreed to.

Question on clauses 4, 7, heading of clause 26 and clause 26, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.

Clauses 12, 15, 17 and 18

MR ERIC LI: Mr Chairman, I move that the clauses specified be amended as set out under my name in the paper circulated to Members.

Amendment to clause 17(1) concerns the membership of the inquiry committee for determining whether or not the registered chiropractor against whom a complaint is made has committed a disciplinary offence. The inquiry committee will comprise not less than three members of the Chiropractors Council, and, to safeguard patient interest, the ad hoc group has proposed that one of them must be a non-chiropractor.

Other amendments concern the Chinese title of chiropractors, the reason for such amendment has already been explained.

Mr Chairman, I propose to move.

Proposed amendments

Clause 12

That clause 12 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Clause 15

That clause 15 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

1842 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 Clause 17

That clause 17 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

That clause 17(1) be amended, by adding", one of whom shall be a person appointed under section 3(2)(b)," after "members".

Clause 18

That clause 18 be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Question on the amendments proposed, put and agreed to.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr Chairman, I move that the clauses specified be further amended as set out under my name in the paper circulated to Members.

The purpose of these minor amendments is to clarify the meaning of the terms used in the Chinese text of the Bill and to maintain consistency in Chinese translation with other pieces of legislation.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Proposed amendments

Clause 12

That clause 12(8) be further amended, by deleting "無" and substituting "沒有".

Clause 15

That clause 15(5) be further amended, by deleting "視為" and substituting "當作為".

Clause 17

That clause 17(2) be further amended, by deleting "如委員會" and substituting "如管理局 ".

That clause 17(8)(a) be further amended, by deleting "正確" and substituting "適當".

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1843 Clause 18

That clause 18(f) be further amended, by deleting "嚴峻" and substituting "嚴厲". Question on the amendments proposed, put and agreed to.

Question on clauses 12, 15, 17 and 18, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to. Schedule was agreed to.

Long title

MR ERIC LI: Mr Chairman, I move that the long title be amended as set out under my name in the paper circulated to Members.

Proposed amendment

Long title

That the long title be amended, by deleting the long title and substituting -

"Provide for the registration of chiropractors namely, persons trained and qualified in the practice of chiropractic including the practice of the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of functional disorders of the human body through manipulation of the joints, particularly of the vertebral column and peripheral joints, including the pelvis; the disciplinary control of the professional activities of registered chiropractors; and for matters related to such registration and disciplinary control.".

That the long title be amended, by deleting "脊骨治療學家" wherever it occurs and substituting "脊醫".

Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.

Question on the long title, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.

AIR POLLUTION CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL 1992

Clauses 1 to 22, 24 to 31 were agreed to.

1844 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 Clause 23

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr Chairman, I move that clause 23(1) be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.

Clause 21 of the Bill gives the authority further powers to require modification, maintenance and repair of an installation of controlled equipment for chimneys or other plant, machinery or equipment. Clause 23(1) has therefore to be amended now so as to include reference to these additional powers in the appeal provisions. The amendments have been discussed and agreed by the ad hoc group formed to study the Bill and members' comments have been reflected in the amendments.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Proposed amendment

Clause 23

That clause 23(1) be amended —

(a) in paragraph (a) by deleting "and" at the end.

(b) by adding -

"(aa) in paragraph (p) by repealing "or relevant plant" and substituting ", relevant plant or other machinery or equipment";

(ab) by adding -

"(pa) section 30(1)(ii) (requiring the installation of control

equipment or systems);

(pb) section 30(1)(iii) (requiring the operation of a chimney,

relevant plant or other machinery or equipment in a

specified manner),.".

(ac) in paragraph (q) by repealing "(ii)" and substituting "(iv)"; and". Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1845

DR SAMUEL WONG: Mr Chairman, I move that clause 23 be further amended as set out under my name in the paper circulated to Members.

Clauses 23(3) is amended to add "or order for costs" after "order". This seeks to provide a channel or review mechanism for appeals against payment of costs in disciplinary inquiries under the new provisions relating to asbestos control.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Proposed amendment

Clause 23

That clause 23(3) be further amended, in the proposed section 31(5)(d) by adding "or order for costs" after "order".

Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.

Question on clause 23, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.

Clause 32

DR SAMUEL WONG: Mr Chairman, I move that the clause specified be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.

The purpose of the amendment to clause 32 is to require the Administration Committee, which is to be set up to supervise a registration system of qualified workers in the asbestos control industry, to provide reasons for deferring or refusing an application for registration.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Proposed amendment

Clause 32

That clause 32 be amended, in the proposed section 58(2) by adding "and reasons for his decision in the case of a deferral or rejection" after "his decision".

Question on the amendment proposed, put and agreed to.

Question on clause 32, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to.

Council then resumed.

1846 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 Third Reading of Bills

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL reported that the

CHIROPRACTORS REGISTRATION BILL and

AIR POLLUTION CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL 1992

had passed through Committee with amendments. He moved the Third Reading of the Bills. Question on the Third Reading of the Bills proposed, put and agreed to. Bills read the Third time and passed.

Member's motion

DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is the first occasion that Standing Order 27A comes into play. I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to time limits on speeches and Members were informed by circular yesterday. The mover of the motion will have 15 minutes for his speech including his reply and other Members will have seven minutes. Under Standing Order 27A, I am required to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue his speech.

TRAUMA TO CHILDREN

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG moved the following motion:

"In the light of the rising incidence of injury to children, both physical and mental, occurring both at home and elsewhere, and the complex nature of the treatment, counselling and rehabilitation of the victims, this Council urges the Administration to look into the problem without delay and to come up with appropriate measures."

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr Deputy President, some two weeks ago when Hong Kong celebrated the Lunar New Year, tragedy befell a family where two young members aged three and four years old were burnt to death. This is by no means an isolated case. Statistics gathered from coroner's inquests between 1989 to 1991 revealed that a total of 80 unattended children died in Hong Kong, some in the most horrific circumstances.

Just four days into 1993, Hong Kong's collective conscience was burdened by our first child suicide. Another school girl attempted to end her life. Again, these are by no means coincidental. The fact remains that from 1991 to 1992,

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1847

some 21 student committed suicide; in 1992 alone some 17 such cases were reported whilst fortunately another 50 attempts were aborted.

It was not until the late 1970s, after some tragic children abuse cases took place, that Hong Kong formally recognized the existence of such a problem. In 1978, the story of the abuse of LAU Suk-mei, a 10-year-old girl, hit the newspaper headlines and aroused great public concern. Ironically, until then, the entity of child abuse was not recognized. A non governmental child protection organization, Against Child Abuse, was established next year as a pilot project. It undertook a significant role in child protection ever since.

In 1983, the death of a young girl as a result of child abuse caused public outcries over the flimsy care and protection for children in Hong Kong. A multi-disciplinary working group was formed under the auspices of the Health and Welfare Branch to look into the policies and child protection in Hong Kong. This working group was supposed to be reconvened in early 1992. Apparently it never did.

In 1986, a Child Protection Registry was established to record child abuse. A total of over 1 500 children were since registered. The number that remained regularly on the list at last year was 383.

Police records showed a total of 73 prosecution cases of child abuse in 1991 and 55 between January and September in 1992.

As for the need for children's rights and their legislative control, it was not until the KWOK Ah-nui case was unravelled by the media in 1986 that our community was alerted to the following concerns:

(1) whether legislation is comprehensive and adequate to protect our children; (2) whether the related parties are handling such situations competently;

(3) whether the Director of Social Welfare is provided with adequate authority to enter any premises to remove a child for examination; and

(4) how to strike a balance between the protection of parents' rights and well-being versus children's safety and their rights.

In response to this case, the then OMELCO Welfare Panel recommended a comprehensive review of the Protection of Women and Juveniles Ordinance. Some amendments were urgently enacted a year later. But a set of proposals are still being discussed after five long years in waiting!

1848 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

Mr Deputy President, I could go on and on and on. The fact remains that accidental injuries and poisoning together is now the number one killer of children over the age of one in Hong Kong. It has surpassed cancer and infectious diseases combined. Every year one in 10 children is involved in an accident for which emergency medical service of different levels is needed. Every year some 100 children were killed; 60 000 attended the Accident and Emergency Department and 17 000 admitted to hospital for injuries. Among those that survived, some 30% suffer permanent sequelae.

In a recent one-year surveillance on childhood injuries conducted at the Princess Margaret Hospital, Dr CHOW, the consultant pediatrician, had the following analysis: There were a total of over 5 000 cases of injury, of which (52%) occurred at home. Among those home injuries, 46% were associated with children left unattended. More importantly, it was acknowledged by some 73% of the parents and relatives that accidents could have been prevented given more care and attention.

Mr Deputy President, all these beg the following questions. What have we done for our next generation? Have we done enough? It also begs the questions of what we should do to make our home a safer place for our children to live, grow and mature.

Mr Deputy President, I stand here today to move this motion in my name. In moving this motion on childhood injury, I am concerned with the lack of care we have offered to our children below the age of 12. I am concerned with the scarcity of statistics for meaningful analysis to try to establish a pattern to improve the situation. I am concerned with the appalling attitude that this Government has taken throughout these years to attempt to curb the problem. And I am concerned with the lack of co-ordination within the government machinery to ensure the suggestions will work.

The scope of childhood injury is a very wide-encompassing one. It borders on the many facets of causes, the possible methods of prevention, the treatment and the rehabilitation of the injured. On top of this it concerns with the need for counselling of the patient and more importantly the parents in the aftermath. It is the responsibility of the parents, teachers, health care workers, social workers, engineers, architects, manufacturers, and so on. In short, it concerns all in society.

In the course of this debate today, I have no doubt honourable colleagues will concentrate on areas they are most concerned with so that hopefully, we can bring to light a complete picture for the Government to respond. The rest of my address, Mr Deputy President, will deal with different modalities of prevention of injury or the lack of it at this point in time and my personal suggestion for the way ahead.

Mr Deputy President, few would dispute that "prevention is better than cure". The fact remains — what is the most effective form of prevention?

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1849

Many would call on the Government to enact laws to prohibit children from being left unattended at home. But is legislation in this form a panacea? Is legislation in this form a feasible reality?

At a debate in this Council in July 1991 on child care, the Government is urged to extend the educational programme and to provide more welfare facilities for working parents to temporarily entrust their children when they are forced to be away from home. But what has been done so far? How many welfare facilities are created? I would be the first to call on the Government to enact laws to prohibit children to be left alone and to request for heavy penalties, if and when adequate welfare facilities are available. Many countries, notably certain states of Australia, Canada and the United States, do have such legislation. Despite this extent, it is understood that these laws are seldom enforced, especially when they are legally educational and deterring at the most.

Rather than just legislation to prohibit leaving children unattended, laws should be enacted to provide a "safer home" through safety engineering of homes, buildings, child products, traffic designs playgrounds and other recreational facilities. After all, as quoted before, 52% of the injury cases occurred in the injured persons' own homes.

Furthermore, any law enacted to protect the safety of our children must aim to protect the child and the child alone. There should in no way be any element of compromise to take into the interest of the manufacturers of products, nor to be pressurized by the business interest. The recently passed Toys and Child Products Safety Ordinance is a typical example of such compromise, where the effect of child protection is watered down by not adopting a single stringent safety criteria in the interest of importers and retailers.

Mr Deputy President, there are currently a number of laws relating to children in Hong Kong, but there is as yet no single comprehensive Children's Ordinance that ties them all together and states the responsibilities of parents, child minders and society on our children. Obviously, our Government has not been bold or thorough on legislative measures for protection of children from abuses and accidental injuries. A single set of law should thus be called for to give clear definition of the responsibilities which this society has on its children. It should state the basic principle of care and protection to be given by parents, child minders and society as well as the consequences of violation of the principles.

While legislation alone is not enough nor is the only panacea, extensive education activities pointing out the possible danger of different home appliances, traumatizing agents and the sequelae of injury must be promoted. To depend only on some educational pamphlets, such as the multi-coloured comic book "Don't Leave Me Alone", is of course blatantly inadequate. The Neglect Campaign working group under the Government Information Service must be reconvened.

1850 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

To cope with the social and economic situation in Hong Kong, more "occasional child care service centres" and "after school programmes" must be established in adequate supply in the different housing estates where they are needed most. "Work-based child care" should be properly encouraged perhaps by introducing incentives such as tax reduction. "Mutual help groups" should also be organized with the Government allocating premises, funding for staff, and setting up proper safety standards.

Like many social issues in Hong Kong, we cannot say squarely that the Government or various parties concerned have done nothing to enhance children safety. But alas such are only piecemeal efforts that lack overall co-ordination and have led to some areas being neglected, whilst others being overlapped. The lack of a concerted direction, or communication, also see service gaps or time lapse along the lines of prevention, treatment and rehabilitation.

Mr Deputy President, we have brilliant academics keen in studying the physical and mental development of our children. We have enthusiastic voluntary agencies working on the welfare of our next generation. Yet, we still lack basic information for compilation of a comprehensive picture of our children's problems, or our children's development.

We have many government policy branches and departments supposed to be related to children welfare — education, health and welfare, labour, recreation and culture, environment, housing ..... just name a few. But why do we still lack a concerted direction towards children and family welfare? How can we be convinced that the decision makers do give priority considerations for child safety when working on policy for our society concerned?

What then, Mr Deputy President, is the way ahead?

Mr Deputy President, I would like to conclude by making two bold suggestions:

Firstly, the two international conventions, that is, Declaration on the Rights of the Child (1989) (of which China is also a signatory) and the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of Intervention Child Abduction (1980) must be ratified by the United Kingdom on behalf of Hong Kong in order that children are provided with the rights and protection they rightly deserve.

Secondly, since the prevention and intervention of accidents in children needs the interaction of so many disciplines, there is a clear need to establish a co-ordinating body — a Child Safety Council. This body must be one with statutory power, funded by public money, supported by multi-disciplinary technical bodies with the following terms of reference:

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1851

(1) To collect and collate statistics and information concerning childhood injury and death.

(2) To establish channels and procedures for publicity and education concerning children safety.

(3) To promulgate a clear policy of childhood protection.

(4) To oversee the implementation of these policies.

Mr Deputy President, we must tackle the problem of the childhood injury with the same mega force our predecessors used to fight infectious disease decades ago. I look forward to my honourable colleagues in making their suggestions and recommendations on this problem this afternoon. I look forward all the more to a positive response from the Administration. Mr Deputy President, the proper upbringing of our future generation is not only a socio-economic but also a political issue. Let society see our Government demonstrate this political will!

Mr Deputy President, I do so move.

Question on the motion proposed.

MRS SELINA CHOW: Mr Deputy President, why do we always need tragedies to spur us into action? Why must there be a KWOK Ah-nui incident, headlines on child suicides, and shocking deaths of unattended children before this community and this Government feel outraged enough to react and act? The problem looms large and deep, and cannot be skimmed over with sporadic crisis management. We need to take a broader and more far sighted view, and a way to ensure that the neglect and inertia which characterize the quality of care for our children must be replaced by a determination to make up for present inadequacies, right present wrongs, and rectify present shortcomings.

Members of the Co-operative Resources Centre speaking today will concentrate on the prevention aspects of child trauma. I will speak on what we perceive to be the Government's role as initiator and facilitator of co-operation and co-ordination between itself, voluntary agencies as well as concerned groups and individuals to raise awareness and change attitudes towards the needs of our children so as to prevent occurrence of tragic events. Mrs Peggy LAM will speak on the problem from the family planning perspective, and urge the Government to provide more and better support service for parents in the way of nursery and day creche places and half-day care places for 6-12 years old. Mrs Miriam LAU will speak on the merits of child safety campaign including the need for legislation. And Mr Henry TANG will speak on how industrialists can help and be helped to provide nurseries for their workers.

1852 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

It is always difficult to quantify how much needs to be done in order to prevent tragedies. Before they happen, there are no victims to save, and no persons to hold responsible. Up to now the voluntary sectors have not been able to afford too much effort towards emphasizing the importance of the family unit as a safety net towards the physical and emotional development of our children by way of mass public education or publicity. Nor are they encouraged to do so by the Government. This way of thinking has got to change, and much more attention and resources would have to be allocated to create a healthy environment, especially at home, for the growth of our children.

In May 1983, in response to public concern over the problem of child abuse, a working group was appointed by the Secretary for Health and Welfare to conduct a general review of the handling of child abuse cases. In August that year the working group submitted a report proposing 32 improvements. In 1984 and 1985 the group reconvened to review progress and came up with a number of new recommendations, one of which gave rise to a multi disciplinary conference organized by the Hong Kong Council of Social Service and the Social Welfare Department in co-operation with Against Child Abuse. The conference successfully attracted a wide cross section of professionals who were involved in the handling of child abuse cases. By sharing their experience, they came up with 28 recommendations. The working group was reconvened in April 1988 to consider these recommendations and came up with further comments and recommendations. The working group was supposed to be reconvened in the beginning of 1992, but as Dr LEONG said earlier up to now this has not happened.

What has happened with this working group, which I am sure many would agree is much needed to deal with the growing problem of child abuse and neglect, sadly reflects the stop-go attitude of the Government towards this very serious wrong done to our children. In view of the increasing need for attention on this front, a more persistent and committed effort has to be devoted to it. I call for the immediate reconstitution of the working group as a standing committee with widened terms of reference to include the responsibility for designing and implementing programmes for public education for the prevention of child abuse.

I realize of course that proper love and care of our children covers many aspects, and child abuse is only one of them, as today's debate indicates. However, I have noticed, and it has also been put to me, that the Government places children issues extremely low in its priority list when it comes to the ranking of publicity programmes undertaken. Keeping Hong Kong Clean appears to be more deserving than parents' responsibility to look after their children, when it comes to API slots on television. Surely such priority calls for readjustment. I would therefore appeal to the Government to set aside airtime for public education on all issues relating to the care and welfare of the child. We also need concerted effort of creative and dedicated people inside and outside the Government in the form of a body designated with this specific task of public education along similar lines as the Clean Hong Kong Campaign to

HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993 1853

draw public attention to the problematic areas and what each and every member of our community can do to help.

Like so many metropolis, Hong Kong has seen many changes in social needs, with which the Government must keep pace. The emergence of the single parent is one phenomenon which the Government has refused to recognize up to now. There are now 35 000 single parents, with one-third of them male and two-thirds female. They, and their children, need assistance and attention. The Government, with the help of voluntary agencies, must establish the very special need required by this group of parents so that their children are not deprived of care.

Mr Deputy President, I support the motion.

MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy President, many people presume, because of scientific progress and economic development, that Hong Kong's children today must be happier than those of yesterday. Yet material affluence has in fact not brought about a safer environment for children to grow up in. Modern-day children suffer from many different forms of trauma, ranging from accident-inflicted physical injury, mental anguish to suicide in a wish to end it all. Such heart-breaking tragedies are happening around us every day and everywhere. In short, I believe that, if we want to find words to describe children's situation today, it will not be an exaggeration to say that "danger lurks everywhere".

According to the Education Department, during the past school year, 21 students aged between 10 and 18 committed suicide and as many as 50 attempted suicide. Now, less than half way into the present school year, students who committed suicide have already numbered more than half of the cases in last year. Suicides are threatening to become a trend. Meanwhile, a recent survey by the Census and Statistics Department found that, among Hong Kong's nearly 554 000 families in which there was at least one child under 13, an estimated 42 000, or 7.1% of the total, had one or more occasions during the week preceding the survey when the children were left at home unattended for not less than two hours. One should not make light of the brief time when these children were left at home by themselves. During the period from 1989 to 1991, it resulted in the loss of 80 precious little lives in Hong Kong.

I think that the Government and the parents, by being indifferent and insensitive to the danger, cannot escape blame for the fact that children today are forced to contend with a situation in which "danger lurks everywhere". Let me start with the Government's roles.

Student suicides, as a trend, have become a cause of anxiety to parents and to the community in general. Yet the Government's reaction has been disappointing. The causes of student suicides are quite complex. They are partly attributable to the fact that young people, living in affluence, generally do

1854 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 10 February 1993

not have a proper self-image or the ability to cope with setbacks or failures. Alienation in inter-personal relationships gives them incessant emotional problems. The fact that the school system lays inordinate emphasis on academic achievements while the quality of teachers has been generally declining tends to put students under heavy mental stresses. Nor, when they come across problems, can they obtain timely support or counselling from persons whom they can turn to. Therefore, we need the Government, teachers, social workers and parents to work closely together and join forces to find a long-term solution. Meanwhile, we must take short-term measures on an emergency basis. One such measure is to add more school social workers. Regrettably, the authorities make no response to this suggestion, which has the approval of the whole community including coroners, teachers and parents.

Of course, adding more social workers is not a cure-all. Still, it might help to save at least those precious lives that were ended suicidally because timely counselling by social workers was not available. In fact, given the present strength of their establishment, school social workers are indeed fighting a losing battle. Therefore, the Government should keep its 1982 promise and improve the social worker to student ratio. It should have done so long before student suicides became a trend. Yet, even today, the Government has made no concrete and comprehensive plan for solving the problem. The authorities should give high priority consideration to creating more school social worker posts in the coming financial year to show the Government's sincerity, and to take the lead, in solving the problem.

The Hong Kong Council of Social Service, to which I belong, has only limited resources. Even so, it has recently begun a series of preventive and remedial actions for the purpose of combatting the problem. I do not intend to elaborate these actions here. I should only like to express the hope that the authorities will apply the crisis management approach and be more flexible in the allocation of resources, so that great financial help may be given to the service projects, including the preventive service projects, of the voluntary agencies involved.

Accidents that happen because parents think fit to leave their children at home unattended should be prevented. Given that the authorities, during this Council's adjournment debate on 18 December 1991, once again vetoed the idea of enacting legislation to stop parents from leaving children home by themselves, I think it is only reasonable that the authorities should now adopt a positive approach and expeditiously lay down and implement both long-term and short-term counter-measures. Regrettably, the Government is still proceeding according to its old plans, such as the plans to add more day-care nursery places, to strengthen child care services whereby children can be taken care of for a short time and to educate parents. The authorities are, without exception, turning a deaf ear to all the reasonable alternative suggestions of the voluntary agencies, such as improving community support services, helping women to form mutual-assistance groups and giving financial assistance to voluntary agencies to operate nurseries in areas where working mothers'