HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 927
OFFICIAL REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 24 May 1978
The Council met at half past two o’clock
PRESENT
HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR (PRESIDENT)
SIR MURRAY MACLEHOSE, GBE, KCMG, KCVO
THE HONOURABLE THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Acting)
MR CHARLES PHILIP HADDON-CAVE, CMG, JP
THE HONOURABLE THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY (Acting)
MR DAVID GREGORY JEAFFRESON, JP
THE HONOURABLE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
MR JOHN WILLIAM DIXON HOBLEY, CMG, QC, JP
THE HONOURABLE THE SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
MR LI FOOK-KOW, CMG, JP
THE HONOURABLE DAVID HAROLD JORDAN, CMG, MBE, JP
DIRECTOR OF TRADE, INDUSTRY AND CUSTOMS
THE HONOURABLE DAVID AKERS-JONES, CMG, JP
SECRETARY FOR THE NEW TERRITORIES
THE HONOURABLE LEWIS MERVYN DAVIES, CMG, OBE, JP
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
THE HONOURABLE DAVID WYLIE MCDONALD, CMG, JP
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS
THE HONOURABLE GARTH CECIL THORNTON, QC
SOLICITOR GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HEWITT NICHOLS, OBE, JP
DIRECTOR OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES
THE HONOURABLE DEREK JOHN CLAREMONT JONES, JP
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
DR THE HONOURABLE THONG KAH-LEONG, JP
DIRECTOR OF MEDICAL AND HEALTH SERVICES
THE HONOURABLE ERIC PETER HO, JP
SECRETARY FOR SOCIAL SERVICES
THE HONOURABLE JOHN MARTIN ROWLANDS, JP
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE
THE HONOURABLE JAMES NEIL HENDERSON, JP
COMMISSIONER FOR LABOUR
THE HONOURABLE AUGUSTINE CHUI KAM, JP
DIRECTOR OF HOME AFFAIRS (Acting)
928 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
THE HONOURABLE COLVYN HUGH HAYE, JP
DIRECTOR OF EDUCATION (Acting)
THE HONOURABLE DAVID TZI-KI WONG, JP
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (Acting)
THE HONOURABLE DONALD LIAO POON-HUAI, OBE, JP SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (Acting)
THE HONOURABLE SIR SZE-YUEN CHUNG, CBE, JP
THE HONOURABLE LEE QUO-WEI, CBE, JP
THE HONOURABLE OSWALD VICTOR CHEUNG, CBE, QC, JP THE HONOURABLE ROGERIO HYNDMAN LOBO, OBE, JP THE HONOURABLE JAMES WU MAN-HON, OBE, JP
THE HONOURABLE HILTON CHEONG-LEEN, OBE, JP THE HONOURABLE LI FOOK-WO, OBE, JP
THE HONOURABLE JOHN HENRY BREMRIDGE, OBE, JP DR THE HONOURABLE HARRY FANG SIN-YANG, OBE, JP THE HONOURABLE MRS KWAN KO SIU-WAH, OBE, JP THE HONOURABLE LO TAK-SHING, OBE, JP
THE HONOURABLE ALEX WU SHU-CHIH, OBE, JP
THE REV. THE HONOURABLE JOYCE MARY BENNETT, JP THE HONOURABLE CHEN SHOU-LUM, JP
THE HONOURABLE LYDIA DUNN, OBE, JP
DR THE HONOURABLE HENRY HU HUNG-LICK, OBE, JP THE HONOURABLE LEUNG TAT-SHING, JP
THE REV. THE HONOURABLE PATRICK TERENCE McGOVERN, SJ, JP THE HONOURABLE PETER C. WONG, JP
THE HONOURABLE WONG LAM, OBE, JP
THE HONOURABLE CHARLES YEUNG SIU-CHO, JP
ABSENT
THE HONOURABLE THOMAS LEE CHUN-YON, CBE, JP DIRECTOR OF SOCIAL WELFARE
THE HONOURABLE PETER GORDON WILLIAMS, OBE, JP THE HONOURABLE FRANCIS YUAN-HAO TIEN, OBE, JP DR THE HONOURABLE RAYSON LISUNG HUANG, CBE, JP
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 929 IN ATTENDANCE
THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
MR STEPHEN TAM SHU-PUI
Papers
The following papers were laid pursuant to Standing Order 14(2):―
Subject LN No Subsidiary Legislation:―
Buildings Ordinance.
Building (Construction) (Amendment) Regulations 1978 .............................. 95
Securities Ordinance.
Securities (Investigations) Regulations 1978.................................................. 96
Legal Practitioners Ordinance.
Legal Practitioners (Fees) (Amendment) Rules 1978 ..................................... 98
Legal Practitioners Ordinance.
Students (Amendment) Rules 1978 ................................................................ 99
Oral answers to questions
Illegal immigrants
1 MR CHEONG-LEEN asked:―Sir, how many (a) legal and (b) illegal immigrants from all sources are estimated to have arrived in Hong Kong from January 1, 1978 to date, and to what extent are the social services and community facilities coping with the present rate of influx of immigrants?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY:―Sir, a total of 23,500 legal and about 6,500 illegal immigrants (excluding those arrested and repatriated) are estimated to have arrived in Hong Kong from all sources from 1 January 1978 to 21 May. (These figures of 23,500 legal and about 6,500 illegal could imply a total gross intake for the year between 75―80,000).
As to the latter part of Mr Hilton CHEONG-LEEN’s question, I can only say this: inevitably our social services and community facilities are under increasing pressure from the numbers of immigrants who continue to flow into Hong Kong. Their presence initially either contributes to the numbers
930 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
who continue to squat on Crown land or exacerbates overcrowding in tenements and housing estates. Immigrants add, therefore obviously to the potential requirement for public housing. Depending on their age and needs, they add to the demand, and immediately, for our education and medical services. Then, within prescribed periods of time, they become eligible for other forms of assistance from public funds: for example, public assistance itself is available after one year’s residence and infirmity allowance after five years.
MR CHEONG-LEEN:―Sir, can and will HM Government assist the Hong Kong Government to take appropriate steps to reduce the flow of immigrants, both legal and illegal, in order that the programmes in the various Green and White Papers can be implemented as planned?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY:―If Mr Hilton CHEONG-LEEN, Sir, is asking whether or not the concern of this Government has been conveyed to the Chinese authorities, the answer is ‘Yes’.
Re-introduction of five-dollar notes
2 MR PETER C. WONG asked:―Sir, will Government consider the reintroduction of five dollar notes?
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY:―Yes, Sir, if we can establish that there is a substantial and widespread demand for them, and the cost is not excessive.
However, I would point out that the replacement of the $5 note by a coin was one of the recommendations made by the Coinage Review Committee set up in November 1973. The Committee consulted widely on the uses of coins and bank notes and its conclusions and recommendations were accepted by the Government in September 1974 and its report widely circulated.
Most countries have, in recent years, introduced higher value coins as inflation depreciates the value of low denomination notes. Moreover, small denomination notes have a very short life, in this case less than one year, whereas a coin may have a life of up to 50 years.
MR PETER C. WONG:―Sir, would Government consider introducing a limited issue specially for Chinese New Year?
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY:―Sir, the answer to that question is contained in the first part of my anwer of the original question. ‘Yes, Sir, we will’, if there is substantial and widespread demand for them, for these notes, and if the cost is not excessive.
MR CHEONG-LEEN:―Has it been proved that a coin has a life of 50 years? THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY:―Yes, Sir.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 931 Pleading by post
3 MR CHEONG-LEEN asked:―Sir, will Government review the legislation in regard to Magistrate Courts so that a defendant who intends to plead not guilty can do so by post and be subsequently notified by letter of the date of the hearing in view of the fact that such cases are invariably adjourned to a later date for hearing and therefore a waste of the time of both the Court and the defendant?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL:―Sir, at first sight, the Registrar of the Supreme Court is hopeful that Mr CHEONG-LEEN’s suggestion can be implemented. It does, of course, go to the root of existing procedures and it is right for me to stress that the advantages of the existing system, requiring an initial attendance at Court of a defendant who intends to plead not guilty, are real. On such an initial appearance, the magistrate is concerned with more than merely fixing dates for a trial.
Sir, the suggestion is now being examined in detail.
MR CHEONG-LEEN:―Sir, is the Attorney General aware that previously what was at first implemented as an advantage to the system is now in actual practice, a serious disadvantage, and that in actual practice as well, the magistrates are usually concerned with merely fixing the dates for a trial?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL:―Sir, I have, naturally, been in consultation with the Registrar. He tells me that there are these very real advantages. Of course, we all recognize the inconvenience suffered by a defendant who merely goes to Court and in whose case the only procedure is the fixing of dates. There are, however, cases where more than that happens.
Collapse of bun towers
4 MISS DUNN asked:―Sir, referring to the collapse of the two bun towers at the Cheung Chau Bun Festival on 9 May, will Government state:―
(a) the causes of the collapse of the two towers;
(b) which Government department was responsible for the standard, specifications and structural soundness of these towers; and
(c) in the light of this incident, as well as a similar one when a bamboo stand erected for lighting equipment collapsed killing 2 spectators and injuring 65 during an outdoor motorcycle show organized by TVB, what steps are being taken to lay down safety requirements for such temporary structures for mass public gatherings and to ensure that these requirements are strictly enforced?
932 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
SECRETARY FOR THE NEW TERRITORIES: ― Sir, so far as can be discovered from investigation after the event, the most probable cause of the collapse of the two bun towers was the use of poor materials in constructing the tower that toppled first. As it fell, it hit a guy rope of another tower causing it also to collapse since it was not designed to withstand the impact of another collapsing tower.
These towers, like many other structures erected in connection with traditional Chinese Festivals, are built in accordance with time-tested designs and traditional methods of construction. The Buildings Ordinance Office inspects structures capable of accommodating the public as required under the Places of Public Entertainment Ordinance, Chapter 172. But bun towers do not come within the provisions of this Ordinance, and have not hitherto been inspected or specifically licensed by any Government department.
Arising from consideration of the findings of the Sek Kong Commission of Enquiry, and now this incident on Cheung Chau, the Government proposes to extend the scope of the Places of Public Entertainment Ordinance to cover such events and structures, and a review of the relevant legislation is now in hand. I hope the necessary legislation will come to this Council during the next session.
MISS DUNN:―Sir, as meanwhile there may be other potentially dangerous structures erected which like the Bun Towers do not come within the provisions of the Places of Public Entertainment Ordinance, will the Government arrange for such structures to be informally inspected and, if found below standard, warn the organizers of the possible dangers facing the public?
SECRETARY FOR THE NEW TERRITORIES:―Yes, Sir.
MISS DUNN:―Sir, in drawing up new legislation will the Government have regard not only to the safety standards of the structures but also lay down criteria for crowd control?
SECRETARY FOR THE NEW TERRITORIES:―Crowd control must, I think, Sir, be best left to the Police and it is entirely their concern.
Bad smell from open nullah
5 REV. JOYCE M. BENNETT asked:―Sir, is the persistent bad smell permeating the stretch of Kwun Tong Road in the middle of Ngau Tau Kok Estate caused by the open nullah coming down from Jordan Valley or by some other cause and what measures will Government take to rectify the situation?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 933
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS:―Sir, when the nullah decking in Kwun Tong Road was constructed a small section in the central divider of the road was left open to accommodate the projecting valves on a large water main which crosses over the nullah. This opening allows the emission of smells produced in the nullah by the discharge of sullage water from the old resettlement blocks at Jordan Valley and the waste from squatter areas upstream of the nullah.
Plans are in hand to remove the nuisance by constructing a deck over the opening with a housing for the waterworks installation.
REV. JOYCE M. BENNETT:―Sir, when will these plans be put in hand; the people have been suffering a long time?
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS:―Sir, it is expected the works will be completed in about 4 months’ time.
Jordan Valley Nullah
6 REV. JOYCE M. BENNETT asked:―Sir, when will Government cover the nullah in the Jordan Valley Estate?
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS:―Sir, there is no item in the Public Works Programme nor is there any plan for covering the nullah.
However, decking of the nullah will be reconsidered when detailed planning for redevelopment of the area is being prepared.
REV. JOYCE M. BENNETT:―Sir, is the Planning Department aware of the lack of open recreation space in this area and that the covered-over-nullah would increase recreation space?
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS:―Yes, Sir. The problem is that this is a very costly project. It would cost nearly $10 million to produce this long strip, and it would not be a particularly usable recreation area since it is about 500 metres in length and about 16 metres wide.
REV. JOYCE M. BENNETT:―Sir, is it possible to ask how many basketball courts we could put in that space?
DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS:―I haven’t worked this out, Sir.
(THE FOLLOWING WRITTEN REPLY WAS PROVIDED SUBSEQUENTLY)
I have now checked the requirement and can confirm that as the minimum standard court is 24 metres by 13 metres with one metre over-run on all sides
934 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
i.e. overall dimensions of 26 metres by 15 metres, only one court could be constructed on the nullah deck at the lower and wider section.
Electrification of Kowloon-Canton Railway
7 MR PETER C. WONG asked:―Sir, when will details of the programme for the electrification of Kowloon-Canton Railway be publicised and when will the project be implemented and completed?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, following a consultants report presented to the Government in November 1977, the Governor in Council, on 24 January this year, approved proposals to electrify the Railway; and on the 24 March the Finance Committee of this Council accepted a financial commitment of up to $400 million to undertake the project. This will be on top of the programme of civil engineering works which is now underway to double track the line, build a new Beacon Hill tunnel and improve stations. In addition, three new stations will be built to serve Sha Tin New Town and its environs and another new station is being planned at Kowloon Tong to provide a very necessary interchange with the Mass Transit Railway. The system will also require the installation of a sophisticated colour light signalling system.
The consultants, Transmark, the consultancy arm of British Railways, have recommended the use of three car electric multiple units, powered by a 25 kilovolt alternating current overhead traction system. The units can be linked to provide trains of from three to twelve cars in length, and the purchase of some 60 sets should permit the running of up to 16 trains an hour in each direction. A maintenance and stabling depot for the rolling stock will be constructed at Sha Tin near the race course.
The consultants have now been asked to examine certain aspects on the critical path of the project and, when this has been completed, a full scale consultancy will be commissioned to prepare detailed designs and to let contracts. The aim is to begin electric services, at least to Race Course Station, by the middle of 1981 which, I should emphasize, is an extremely ambitious target.
MR PETER C. WONG:―Sir, can Government give a very rough estimate when the whole programme will be completed?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, the aim is to complete the project by June, 1981. As I said, we will at least aim to have electrification to Race Course Station which is the most difficult part of the project by that time. If we complete that, we will certainly have it right the way through to Lo Wu very shortly afterwards.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 935 MR PETER C. WONG:―Sir, will this programme involve resuming private property?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―No, Sir, not as far as I know. I am sorry, Sir. There is one aspect and that’s the Kowloon Tong Station. It may be necessary to resume an orphanage, I think, which is nearby, but otherwise it is entirely on railway land and the reservation for the railway is wide enough to take in the whole project.
Living conditions at Chai Wan Temporary Housing Area
8 DR HU asked:―Sir, will Government make a statement about the living conditions at Chai Wan Temporary Housing Area?
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING:―Sir, there are four temporary housing areas in Chai Wan with a total capacity of 10,900 people; there are at present 7,500 people living in these areas.
Of these, Chai Wan II situated on low land near the new Yue Wan Estate is the only old type licensed area where the facilities provided by Government consist simply of surface drainage channels, standpipes, central latrines and electricity supplies.
Part of this area has been subject to flooding recently because considerable engineering works in the neighbouring area have resulted in the area being left at a lower level and because subsequent reclamation has blocked two of the three drainage outlets. To alleviate flooding the water drains were rechannelled last month. Twenty families who were affected by the recent flooding have been offered and have accepted public housing in the nearby estates.
The Chai Wan II Temporary Housing Area was first opened in 1973 and is due to be closed in August this year when new housing becomes available in Phase 2 of the neighbouring Yue Wan Estate.
The other three temporary housing areas are of the more modern type with part-built structures, electricity and water supplies to individual homes, security and cleansing services. These areas are spacious by comparison and the living conditions there are good. There is one problem and that concerns the access road to the newest area, Chai Wan V. This unmetalled road also gives access to the Mass Transit Works area and it has deteriorated badly with the heavy use it has had to sustain. An access footpath and a drain are being constructed by the Housing Department and will be completed in July; and the condition of the access road is being improved.
936 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 Motorcycles registration
9 MR LOBO asked:―Sir, how many motorcycles are registered in Hong Kong and what was the percentage increase over the last 5 years?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, as at 31 March 1978, 16,464 motorcycles were registered. Their numbers have increased by about 9% over the last five years.
MR LOBO:―Sir, may I know if these 16,000 include Government and other services?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Yes, Sir. Government machines have to be registered. They have a registration number.
Hiring of motorcycles
10 MR LOBO asked:―Sir, has Government any up-to-date record of the number of establishments which carry on the business of hiring out of motorcycles?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, as these establishments do not need to be licensed there is no up-to-date record of their numbers. However, when the Police checked out their insurance cover last year, there were found to be 12 establishments operating in Kowloon.
MR LOBO:―Sir, are there no establishments in Hong Kong?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―As far as I know, Sir, when these establishments were checked out, none were found in Hong Kong.
MR LOBO:―Is it not, Sir, time for consideration to be given in view of accidents for some measure of control to be exercised over these establishments?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, I did write to Mr LOBO earlier this year following previous questions he asked on this and pointed out the difficulties of laying down conditions for the issuing of licences, but I would promise to look into the matter again.
MR LOBO:―Thank you.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 937 Post offices in large communities
11 MR CHEUNG asked:―Sir, does Government consider it desirable to establish post offices in large communities like Oi Man Estate, both as an essential public service and as encouragement to use such service thus contributing to its profitability?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES:―Sir, Government does consider it desirable to establish post offices in large communities as a public service. So far as Oi Man Estate is concerned, the Postmaster General has in fact recently completed a survey of the area and he has come to the conclusion that a post office is needed at Oi Man Estate. He is now in the process of preparing a formal proposal to this effect.
MR CHEUNG:―Sir, are the needs of any other housing estates for Post Offices being examined and, if so, how many?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES:―Sir, there is a continual survey going on. At the moment, there are 21 Post Offices in housing estates, 3 on Hong Kong Island, 13 in Kowloon and 5 in the New Territories. Over the next five years, 15 additional post offices in housing estates are being planned by the Postmaster General.
Compensation for the resumption of private buildings
12 MR WONG LAM asked in the Cantonese Dialect:―
政府是否對現行收回私㆟住宅樓宇以供公共發展之賠償安排感到切實及合理， 若否，到底有何改善計劃？
(The following is the interpretation of what Mr WONG Lam asked)
Sir, is Government satisfied that the present compensation arrangements for the resumption of private residential buildings for public redevelopment are realistic and reasonable and if not, what steps will Government take to rectify the situation?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, the answer to the first part of the question is yes. The terms for the acquisition of private residential property for a public purpose have been considerably adjusted in recent years and now include a combination of statutory and ex gratia compensation, together with an offer of rehousing. As the matter is somewhat complicated I have, for convenience, tabled (see appendix) a description of the terms now being offered as compensation to owners and tenants.
938 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
The Government will keep a close watch on current and future clearances to ensure that compensation arrangements continue to be appropriate to the circumstances.
APPENDIX
COMPENSATION PROVISIONS FOR OWNERS AND OCCUPANTS OF RESUMED RESIDENTIAL PREMISES
1 Owners
(a) Owners who are not occupiers
Under the Crown Lands Resumption Ordinance and the Mass Transit Railway (Land Resumption and Related Provisions) Ordinance, owners are offered the assessed full market value of their premises in whatever condition they may be at the time. Compensation should be what a buyer would have to pay to a willing seller for the premises, and it would reflect any encumbrances, such as tenants, attaching to the premises as well as any improvements made by the owner which enhanced the market value of the property. The Government’s assessment of compensation can be adjudicated on by the Lands Tribunal if the owner contests it. Half of the Government’s offer is usually paid to the owner when he indicates his willingness to vacate the premises under resumption, whether or not he wishes to contest the total amount of compensation in the Lands Tribunal.
(b) Owner-occupiers
(i) Statutory compensation as in (a) above.
(ii) Occupiers ex-gratia disturbance allowance. This is assessed as if the occupiers were tenants of pre-war premises subject to Part 1 of the Landlord and Tenants (Consolidation) Ordinance and subject to an Exclusion Order. (iii) An offer of direct rented public housing in a permanent estate.
2 Tenants
(i) Ex-gratia occupiers disturbance allowance assessed as in (b)(ii). In the case of tenants this allowance substitutes for any claim which the tenant might have made under the Crown Lands Resumption Ordinance and the Mass Transit Railway (Land Resumption and Related Provisions) Ordinance, except where the tenant has a fixed term of years, in which case he would have an additional statutory claim.
(ii) An offer of direct rented public housing in a permanent estate.
MR WONG LAM:―(asked in the Cantonese dialect)
閣㆘，被收屋的㆟士，在適合的條件之㆘，政府會否考慮在居者有其屋計劃之 ㆘，被他有優先選擇來買屋呢？
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 939 (The following is the interpretation of what Mr WONG Lam asked)
Sir, for persons whose properties have been resumed, would Government consider to give them priority in the Home Ownership Scheme to purchase their own flats?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, as I said in part of my reply to the question, both the owner/occupier and tenants will be given an offer of re-housing, apart from other compensation, that is, an offer of re-housing in public housing estates. I cannot speak for my honourable Friend, the Secretary for Housing, but I think the position would then be that the person concerned would then be treated as though he were a public housing tenant for the purposes of the Home Ownership Scheme.
MR WONG LAM:―(asked in the Cantonese dialect)
閣㆘，我請問假如這個被收屋之㆟士，他不肯入公共屋 ，在未搬入公共屋 之前，我想問是否有優先計劃入住？
(The following is the interpretation of what Mr WONG Lam asked)
Sir, for instance a person whose property has been resumed refuses to move into a public housing estate and before he moves into such an estate, would he still be given priority?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, I think he could put his name down for a home ownership flat and, as I said, he would then be treated as though he were a public housing tenant.
Auditoria in the New Territories
13 MR YEUNG asked:―Sir, what are the criteria for providing an auditorium in the New Territories for the promotion of cultural activities and has Government any plans to provide a smaller auditorium in those market towns which do not meet the present criteria?
SECRETARY FOR THE NEW TERRITORIES:―Sir, the basis of our policy to provide auditoria and related cultural facilities in the New Territories lies in the provision of a major centre in each of the three new towns: Sha Tin and Tuen Mun will each have a population of about half a million on full development and the population of Tsuen Wan will eventually reach nearly a million.
The facilities in these major centres will include an auditorium where concerts, dramas, Chinese operas and other performances can be held, and will be capable of seating an audience of 1,500. In addition there will be
940 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
music practice rooms, lecture rooms and an exhibition or conference hall. Work on the auditorium at Tsuen Wan has started and should be completed by the end of next year. Building work on the centres in Tuen Mun and Sha Tin will begin in mid-1979.
These three major centres will serve the new towns and the rural areas adjacent to them, but there are other towns in the New Territories that will also grow to have substantial populations―particularly Tai Po, Fanling/ Sheung Shui and Yuen Long. Our thinking is that cultural facilities in these places should be scaled down proportionately to complement rather than compete with the three larger centres of artistic activity and that buildings should, if possible, be able to be used for other recreational activities.
On this basis, approval is being sought to improve and extend a secondary school hall being built in Yuen Long to provide an auditorium for local performances.
In Fanling/Sheung Shui it is proposed to build a town hall with a seating capacity of 1,000 and which will incorporate other facilities. A similar scheme is being considered for Tai Po.
In places with fewer people, for example Sai Kung, where the demand for cultural activities is not so great, nevertheless the Government recognizes that there is a need for a community hall to stage a wide variety of activities, but the precise need for and timing of provision of facilities will vary from place to place.
MR YEUNG:―Sir, what is the time for the commencement of work and completion for the Town Hall in Fanling/Sheung Shui and in Tai Po?
SECRETARY FOR THE NEW TERRITORIES:―Sir, so far as I can recall, it is hoped to commence work on the Fanling/Sheung Shui Town Hall next year and the Town Hall at Tai Po is still very much in the planning stage. The population of Tai Po at the moment of course in the immediate town area is only about 30,000 people.
MR YEUNG:―Sir, can we be informed whether the auditorium has a flat floor or stacked rows in the new towns of Fanling/Sheung Shui and Tai Po?
SECRETARY FOR THE NEW TERRITORIES:―Sir, I have not the details of the architectural design at my fingertips but will let Mr Charles YEUNG know the answer.
MR YEUNG:―Sir, does it mean that Yuen Long will not have a town hall built, because they are going to have a secondary school hall converted?
SECRETARY FOR THE NEW TERRITORIES:―Sir, I hope that in due course Yuen Long will also have a town hall which will be purpose-built.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 941 Abandoned cars
14 REV. JOYCE M. BENNETT asked:―Sir, will Government consider removing broken down and/or abandoned cars from non-metered private car parking spaces in the street?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, the law provides that no vehicle should be parked or allowed to wait in a parking place for more than two days. Where a case is found the Police normally notify the registered owner and ask him to remove the vehicle. Should he not do so, any police officer in uniform of the rank of sergeant or above may authorize the removal of the vehicle.
REV. JOYCE M. BENNETT:―Sir, how many such vehicles have been removed by the Police in the last 12 months?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, I will find that out and write to Miss BENNETT with the answer.
(THE FOLLOWING WRITTEN REPLY WAS PROVIDED SUBSEQUENTLY)
During the year 1 June 1977 to 31 May 1978, a total of 1,187 private cars from non-metered on-street parking space was removed by the police as follows:―
Hong Kong 34
Kowloon 964
New Territories 189
Total 1,187
REV. JOYCE M. BENNETT:―Sir, will the Government bring in an amendment to the law so that owners will know these vehicles will definitely be removed after 2 days without their being consulted?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, as I have said, the owners are normally notified by the Police. The Transport Department, of course, has a register of registered owners and the owners are notified. If they make no response, or they take no action, then the cars are removed.
MR T. S. LO:―Sir, on a point of order, this question was not a legal one dealing with whether the Police are authorized to do this or that; it was a practical one asking whether the Police in practice do certain things which has not been answered.
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Sir, is that a question?
942 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
MR T. S. LO:―Sir, I was rising to make a point on a point of order but I could convert it to a supplementary question. It is whether the Police in practice remove the cars?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:―Yes, Sir, they do. Whether they do so fast enough, I am not aware.
Passenger arrival arrangements at Kai Tak
15 MR PETER C. WONG asked:―Sir, is Government satisfied with the existing passenger arrival arrangements at Kai Tak Airport now that the new buffer arrival hall has been in use for two months and if not, what measures will Government take to rectify the situation?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES:―Sir, the short answer to the question is ‘no’ because the existing arrangements at the buffer arrival hall are only transitional ones. They form only one phase of a $300 million programme to redevelop and expand the Airport Terminal Building. This programme involves tearing down and rebuilding much of the internal part of the Terminal Building whilst maintaining at the same time its full operational capability. This is no easy task when the flow of in-coming and out-going passengers exceeds 4,000 persons per hour at the peak. Under such circumstances conditions must of necessity be less than ideal.
Improvements, however, are being made to the buffer hall as and when deficiencies come to light and when progress in construction permits. For example, during the last two months deficiencies in the system of directional signs in the hall became apparent. As a consequence, temporary signs have been put up and permanent signs are being redesigned, relocated and increased in number.
Since Monday, the completion of another phase of the construction work permitted the opening of a third exit from the buffer hall. The additional exit leads to the separate parking area set aside for buses catering for tour groups. Hitherto, tour groups had to share the kerb space allocated to hotel transport, thus leading to a degree of congestion. Since tour groups account for 41% of arriving tourists, this has greatly eased the congestion at the kerbside.
Other improvements will progressively be made until the entire re-development of the Terminal Building is completed by the end of 1981.
MR PETER C. WONG:―Sir, is it not correct that in particular the new buffer arrival hall at Kai Tak has given rise to a great deal of dissatisfaction and confusion over the past two months?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 943
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES:―Sir, there has been some dissatisfaction. I am not sure about the confusion. Four complaints about the lack or inadequacy of signs in the buffer hall have been received by the Director of Civil Aviation during the two months that the hall has been in use. Bearing in mind that as of 11 a.m. this morning some 519,000 people have passed through the hall, that is not excessive, I think.
MR PETER C. WONG:―Sir, is it now correct that in particular the new buffer arrangements at Kai Tak are not satisfactory, will Government take urgent interim measures, other than those already mentioned, to improve the very unsatisfactory situation at the buffer hall?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES:―Sir, as I have said, improvements are being made when necessary and when the physical development of the terminal building permits.
MR CHEONG-LEEN:―Sir, will the entire re-development of the terminal building be completed at the earliest or at the latest by the end of 1981, which is 3½ years from now, and can additional steps be taken to see that this re-development is completed even earlier?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES:―I do not think that is possible, given the enormity of the task and as I have said the need to maintain the operational capability of the building while work is progressing.
MR CHEONG-LEEN:―Sir, do I understand it then that this possibility has been looked into and that it has not been found possible in any way?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES:―Yes, Sir.
MR PETER C. WONG:―Does it mean that arriving passengers will have to suffer certain deficiencies until 1981?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES:―No, Sir, it does not mean that at all. As I have said improvements are being made all the time. I cannot give an indication as to precisely when each improvement will be made, but several, as I have mentioned, are in the pipeline. The replacement of signs and the improvement of signs, are proceeding. They should be completed within about six weeks. Thereafter, or perhaps even concurrently or before that is completed, the opaque glass in the partitioning which at the moment separates the buffer hall from the greeting hall, will be replaced by transparent glass so that arrivals can at least make visual contact with any greeters before they actually emerge from the hall. Eventually when the whole project is completed, the buffer hall will be approximately twice the size of the present one, so these improvements are going on all the time.
944 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 Written answer to question
Clearance operation in Sheung Shui.
16 MR YEUNG asked:―Sir, will Government provide a breakdown of the persons who have been or will be affected by clearance operations in Choi Yuen Tsuen, Sheung Shui, showing the number of such persons (and the nature of their entitlement to use of land)―
(a) who were owner-occupiers, members of their family, or staff employed by such owner occupier;
(b) who were private tenants, members of their family, or staff employed by such tenants; (c) who were permittees, members of their family, or staff employed by such permittees; and
(d) who were trespassers, members of their family, or staff employed by such trespassers;
and the basis and amount of compensation and/or other benefits, which were or will be offered or made available to each of the above categories of persons in respect of land ownership and land occupancy?
SECRETARY FOR THE NEW TERRITORIES:―Sir, the basis of my reply is in the table which accompanies this answer, in which the people cleared from Choi Yuen Tsuen, Area 27 of the Shek Wu Hui development area, are classified according to whether they were owner occupiers, private tenants, holders of Crown Land Licences, occupants of unauthorized but tolerated structures on Crown Land or leased land, and the occupants of structures held on Short Term Tenancies or Waivers for industrial purposes.
In summary, 1,147 people belonging to 255 families have been or will be cleared by the end of May this year. 102,242.2 square metres (1,100,533 square feet) of land is involved, and the total sum payable in compensation or ex-gratia allowances is $3,602,403.22. 82% of the families involved were the occupants of unauthorized structures on Crown Land or leased land. Just over 10% were owner occupiers.
No separate record of staff employed in the area is kept since the compensation and rehousing arrangements apply only to those actually living or owning property in the area.
Of the people cleared, those occupying structures surveyed in 1968 or covered by a valid licence have been offered public housing accommodation, the nearest being at Woh Che in Sha Tin. Those whose structures were built later and first recorded in the 1976 survey have been offered temporary public housing in the Fanling Temporary Housing Area.
A domestic removal allowance, means tested, is payable to both categories to assist them at a rate of $600/800/1,000 for 1-2/3-5/6+ person families.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 945 The compensation or ex-gratia allowances were assessed thus:―
Statutory Compensation
Agricultural land in the area has been valued at $5 per square foot. Land-owners accepting land exchange entitlements (Letter B) have had a value of $10 attributed to their agricultural land, that is including a $5 ex-gratia allowance. Landowners accepting cash compensation have received $17 per square foot, that is a $12 ex-gratia allowance in addition to the basic agricultural value of $5 per square foot.
Ex-Gratia Allowances
Crops have been assessed by the Director of Agriculture and Fisheries’ staff according to the current market price. There is an additional Disturbance Allowance of $1 per square foot payable on land under cultivation.
Pig-breeders receive an allowance at the rate of $11.50 per square foot of pigsty, subject to a limit of $40,000 for pigsties that are not covered by a valid licence.
Poultry-breeders are paid according to the number of birds kept―a minimum of 30 is required to qualify for assessment. The rates used in these clearances are:― Chicken ― $4.50 each
Duck ― $4.00 each
Pigeon ― $8.00 each
Quail ― $1.00 each
Goose ― $5.00 each
subject to an upper limit of $10,000 on poultry sheds not covered by a valid licence.
Minor improvements to land attract compensation according to their current replacement value as assessed by New Territories Administration works staff. This item covers wells, fences, threshing floors and similar permanent improvements.
Workshops are assessed by the staff of the Director of Housing. $7,000 is payable for the first 200 square feet, with 50 square feet set as a qualifying minimum, and $20 per square foot thereafter up to a maximum of $100,000.
Tropical Fish in covered aquaria are assessed on the same basis as workshops, but in open-air ponds they are assessed as though they were open (industrial) working areas, using the same rate but with an upper limit of $50,000.
Shops are compensated at a rate of $120 for the first 75 square feet; $30 per square foot for the next 425 square feet; $20 per square foot thereafter, with an upper limit of $50,000.
Ex-gratiafor Fi(both aqfish-p
$
$
$
24 May 1978 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ―
U HUI DEVELOPMENT, PACKAGE 3: AREAS 27A AND 27B SHEK W
Compensation
for
Ex-gratia Disturbance
Miscellaneous Allowance for Allowance
Total No. of Total No. of
Land
Pig-breeders and for
Crop/Fruit Tree Staff
People in their
Improvements Poultry Farmers Cultivators Compensation Employed Families
No.
$174,379.50 $79,307.25 $ 57,716.00 $130,077.90Unknown 138
26 owners
(26 Families)
$97,365.80 $135,574.63 $45,104.00 $36,380.60Unknown 77
19 Licensees
(19 Families)
$ 4,556.80 Nil
$5,140.00 $7,590.60 Unknown 0
2 Licensees
$446,371.40 $82,561.01
$243,759.50 $500,122.90Unknown 930
209 Families
(209 Families)
Nil Nil
Nil Nil
Unknown2
3 STT/STW
(1 Family) (1 Family)
$722,673.50 $297,442.89 $351,719.50$674,172.00
1,147
(255 Families)
(1,100,533 sq.ft). Total Area of Private Lot Resumed:102,242.4 ㎡
Total No. of Private Lost Resumed: 181.
110.
946
APPENDIX I
Type of Person to be Cleared
Owner occupiers (i.e. land owners occupying structures)
Modification of Tenancy
Licensee (Private Tenants)
Crown Land Licensee (for
Cultivation only, without
structures)
Occupants of temporary
structures not covered by
Licences but tolerated
(including both private tenants
and Crown Land trespassers)
Occupants of structures covered
by Short Term
Waivers/Tenancies
TOTAL
Total No. of Landowners:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 947 Government business
Motions
DUTIABLE COMMODITIES ORDINANCE
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY moved the following motion:―
(1) that part of the resolution made and passed by the Legislative Council on the 24 March 1976 and published in the Gazette of the 26 March 1976 as Legal Notice No 89 of 1976 which imposed duties on tobacco be revoked;
(2) that duty shall be payable on tobacco at the following rates per pound― A―on UNMANUFACTURED TOBACCO―
$
(1) Tobacco of Malawi origin ........................................................................ 14.60 (2) Other Tobacco.......................................................................................... 14.90
B―on MANUFACTURED TOBACCO―
$
(1) Cigars ...................................................................................................... 19.80 (2) Cigarettes ................................................................................................ 20.15 (3) Other manufactured tobacco including snuff and cigar cuttings―
(a) Chinese prepared tobacco................................................................ 3.70 (b) Other varieties ................................................................................. 15.90
He said:―Sir, as described in this year’s budget speech, there has been a growing tendency for imported cigarettes to be made of tobacco which has been specially treated so that, for a given weight, the volume is increased. This use of so-called ‘puff’ tobacco in cigarettes has resulted in less tobacco, by weight, being included in certain brands of imported cigarettes. Thus the amount of duty payable per packet of cigarettes has declined, with a loss of revenue in the region of $11 million a year.
To restore the yield, the budget proposal to increase the rate of duty on imported cigarettes by $1.65 per pound to $20.15 per pound was implemented with effect from 2.30 p.m. on 1 March 1978 as a result of an Order by you, Sir, under the Public Revenue Protection Ordinance. This had the effect of adding six cents to the duty levied on a packet of 20 imported cigarettes. In the debate on the second reading of the Appropriation Bill earlier this year, my honourable Friend, Sir S. Y. CHUNG, quite rightly asked why we had not followed the principle enunciated by the Financial Secretary in 1966 that we should raise duty in multiples of 10 cents a packet. The answer is that in this particular case we were concerned solely with restoring the revenue yield and felt we could do no more than that. But I can assure my honourable Friend that the 1962 principle has been neither forgotten nor discarded.
948 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
This motion gives legislative effect to the Order in the manner provided under section 4(1) of the Dutiable Commodities Ordinance.
Sir, I beg to move.
SIR S. Y. CHUNG:―Your Excellency, whilst I am glad to hear the assurance given by the Financial Secretary that he has neither forgotten nor discarded the 1966 principle of raising excise duty on imported cigarettes in multiples of ten cents a packet, it is rather a pity that he nonetheless has ignored the principle in this particular case.
In consequence, in order to recoup the $11 million annual loss of revenue from the consumers, the importers and dealers are presented with a gift of $7 million a year and the consumers have to pay out a total of $18 million a year. I simply cannot see the logic of letting the importers and dealers receive this windfall which could have easily been directed into public revenue.
Although the sum of $7 million is trivial when we have an annual surplus of $1,000 million, yet it is a matter of principle. It is for this reason that I rise to speak to this motion.
With this reservation, Sir, I reluctantly support the motion.
Question put and agreed to.
MASS TRANSIT RAILWAY CORPORATION ORDINANCE
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY moved the following motion:―Under section 12(1) of the Mass Transit Railway Corporation Ordinance that the Financial Secretary on behalf of the Government may grant a guarantee in respect of the repayment of a loan made to and the discharge of the indebtedness of the Mass Transit Railway Corporation under the facilities specified in the Schedule hereto up to the amounts specified in respect thereof.
SCHEDULE
1. A loan arranged by Lazard Brothers and Co., Ltd. and provided by Schroders & Chartered as Agent to finance contracts placed in the U.K.
204 million dollars and such amounts as may become payable in respect of interest.
He said:―Sir, section 12 of the Mass Transit Railway Corporation Ordinance requires the authority of this Council for the granting of guarantees by the Financial Secretary, on behalf of the Government, in respect of the repayment of loans and other indebtedness incurred by the Mass Transit Railway Corporation.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 949
The motion I am introducing today seeks authority for a Government guarantee to enable the Corporation to borrow HK$204 million towards financing the purchase of 70 railcars.
As the loan, which covers 85% of the contract price, is denominated in HK dollars, the Government’s commitment in respect of the guarantee will be entirely free from exchange risks. The interest rate will be fixed at 7¾% per annum and the loan will be repayable over a period of 8½ years from May 1981.
This loan guarantee, if approved by Honourable Members, would bring Government’s total amount of guarantee to HK$6,890 million.
Question put and agreed to.
First reading of bills
MOTOR VEHICLES (FIRST REGISTRATION TAX) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1978 STAMP (AMENDMENT) (NO 4) BILL 1978
DUTIABLE COMMODITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1978
Bills read the first time and ordered to be set down for second reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).
Second reading of bills
MOTOR VEHICLES (FIRST REGISTRATION TAX) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1978
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY moved the second reading of:―‘A bill to amend the Motor Vehicles (First Registration Tax) Ordinance.’
He said:―Sir, the Bill seeks to implement the proposal the Financial Secretary explained in his speech moving the second reading of the Appropriation Bill 1978 (paragraphs 204-208 of the printed version). He proposed that the first registration tax in respect of cars with a value determined in accordance with section 4 of the Motor Vehicles (First Registration Tax) Ordinance at $20,000 or less should remain at 30%; but thereafter the tax for cars so valued up to and including HK$30,000 should be at 35% and for those over $30,000 at 40%. Clause 2 of the Bill amends the Schedule to the principal Ordinance accordingly.
950 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
The provisions of the Bill became effective from 2 March 1978 as a result of an Order signed by Your Excellency under the Public Revenue Protection Ordinance.
The estimated yield to the revenue from the new rates is HK$15 million for 1978-79.
Motion made. That the debate on the second reading of the Bill be adjourned―THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY.
Question put and agreed to.
STAMP (AMENDMENT) (NO 4) BILL 1978
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY moved the second reading of:―‘A bill to amend the Stamp Ordinance.’
He said:―Sir, under the present section 40(4)(e) of the Stamp Ordinance, all instruments executed by the Housing Authority for the purpose of the Housing Ordinance are exempt from stamp duty. The section was enacted in the context of the Housing Authority’s activities being restricted to leasing its domestic and non-domestic premises. But with the enactment of the Housing (Amendment) (No 2) Bill 1978, the Authority now has powers to sell flats under the Home Ownership Scheme. This expansion of the Authority’s activities raises the question whether or not the exemption from stamp duty should also cover these new activities (as it would by default if the Stamp Ordinance were not amended).
For the private sector, the Stamp Ordinance requires stamp duty to be payable on any conveyance of property. The duty is charged on the full market value, even though the property might be changing hands at a price lower than this value.
We would not wish to establish a precedent by adopting a different policy in respect of flats purchased under the Home Ownership Scheme; and there are no persuasive arguments for doing so. Because this is a non-profit making scheme and the Government is guaranteeing part of the loan, flat purchasers under the Scheme will pay less for their flats than they would on the open market. But they should not have the further benefit of not paying the stamp duty that any other purchaser at concessionary terms would have to pay.
The Stamp (Amendment) (No 4) Bill 1978 provides that any conveyance on sale should be excluded from the general exemption from payment of stamp duty at present enjoyed by the Housing Authority and its tenants.
The Housing Department has already told potential buyers under the Home Ownership Scheme that they are likely to have to pay duty.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 951
Motion made. That the debate on the second reading of the Bill be adjourned―THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY.
Question put and agreed to.
DUTIABLE COMMODITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1978
THE DIRECTOR OF TRADE, INDUSTRY AND CUSTOMS moved the second reading of:―‘A bill to amend the Dutiable Commodities Ordinance.’
He said:―Sir, the purpose of the Bill is to implement a proposal made in this year’s Budget Speech to make it an offence to run a car―or any other vehicle―on kerosene or a mixture of diesel oil and kerosene.
In carrying out routine checks of diesel-engined vehicles, officers of the Customs and Excise discovered that an increasing number of vehicle owners and drivers were mixing kerosene with diesel oil in their fuel tanks. As the law now stands they are doing nothing illegal and, since kerosene is a cheaper fuel than diesel oil, it might be said they are displaying that enterprise and ingenuity that have contributed so much to our economic success.
But, although this practice is not illegal, it certainly isn’t what we had in mind when in 1972, we abolished the duty on kerosene and certain other hydrocarbon oils on the grounds that the duty tended to add to industrial costs and the cost of living. We continued to levy duty on hydrocarbon oils used for road vehicles since it was considered that road users should thus contribute towards the cost of the services provided for them.
Furthermore, as they say, there are environmental arguments which I am sure my Friend Mr JONES would be glad to develop later in this debate. A mixture of kerosene and diesel produces even more unpleasant exhaust fumes than diesel alone. As a scooter-rider myself, I hope, therefore to have the support of at least one Unofficial Member for this Bill.
On the other hand, the general reintroduction of duty on kerosene would impose an unnecessary increase on domestic living costs, while to impose a new duty only on kerosene used for road vehicles would present considerable law-enforcement problems and would, as the Financial Secretary has already said, ‘amount to condoning a practice that is at variance with environmental considerations’ (paragraph 202, page 96, of the Budget Speech). (laughter)
So this Dutiable Commodities (Amendment) Bill seeks to remedy the situation by making it an offence for any hydrocarbon oils, other than motor spirit (petrol) or diesel oil to be used as a fuel for road vehicles.
952 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
Motion made. That the debate on the second reading of the Bill be adjourned―THE DIRECTOR OF TRADE, INDUSTRY AND CUSTOMS.
Question put and agreed to.
AUXILIARY FORCES PAY AND ALLOWANCES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1978 Resumption of debate on second reading (10 May 1978)
Question proposed.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill read the second time.
Bill committed to a committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (AMENDMENT) (NO 3) BILL 1978
Resumption of debate on second reading (10 May 1978)
Question proposed.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill read the second time.
Bill committed to a committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
RAILWAYS (AMENDMENT) BILL 1978
Resumption of debate on second reading (10 May 1978)
Question proposed.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill read the second time.
Bill committed to a committe of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 953 Committee stage of bills
Council went into Committee.
CENSUS AND STATISTICS BILL 1978
Clauses 1 to 12 were agreed to.
Clause 13
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY:―Sir, I move that clause 13 be amended as set out in the paper before Honourable Members.
Proposed amendment
Clause 13
That clause 13 be amended in subclause (5)―
(a) by deleting ‘If so required by the Commissioner’ and substituting the following―
‘Where reasonable grounds exist for believing that any specified person has withheld or incorrectly given any information in his possession which, in the opinion of the Commissioner, is required for the purpose of the completion by such specified person of any schedule, and the Commissioner so directs’; and
(b) by inserting after ‘any premises’ the following―
‘occupied by such specified person’.
The amendments were agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, was agreed to.
Clauses 14 to 28 were agreed to.
Schedule was agreed to.
AUXILIARY FORCES PAY AND ALLOWANCES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1978 Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to.
954 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (AMENDMENT) (NO 3) BILL 1978
Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to.
RAILWAYS (AMENDMENT) BILL 1978
Clauses 1 to 18 were agreed to.
Schedule was agreed to.
Third reading of bills
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL reported that the
AUXILIARY FORCES PAY AND ALLOWANCES (AMENDMENT) BILL CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (AMENDMENT) (NO 3) BILL and
RAILWAYS (AMENDMENT) BILL
had passed through Committee without amendment and that the
CENSUS AND STATISTICS BILL
had passed through Committee with amendment and moved the third reading of each of the bills.
Question put on each bill and agreed to.
Bills read the third time and passed.
Unofficial Member’s motion
GREEN PAPER―DEVELOPMENT OF PERSONAL SOCIAL WORK AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE IN HONG KONG
MISS KO moved the following motion:―That this Council takes note of the proposals in the Green Paper on ‘Development of Personal Social Work Among Young People in Hong Kong’.
She said:―Your Excellency, I rise to move the motion in my name on the Order Paper.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 955
In recent years, young people have become a major concern in the planning of social services in Hong Kong. This accounts for the preparation of the present Green Paper on Personal Social Work Among Young People in Hong Kong. As Convener of the ad hoc group of Unofficial Members on the Green Paper, I would like to state the main opinions and suggestions of the group as well as some of my own.
Objectives and strategies
The group recognizes the Government’s goodwill in developing services to help young people with potential anti-social behaviour. Members hold the opinion that the prevention of delinquency should involve a wide range of programmes and services, such as housing, employment, education, health care and recreation, all of which have a bearing on the process of growing up. In fact, delinquent behaviour cannot be easily pinpointed or recognized. The normal channels through which young people develop from early childhood into adulthood must not be neglected in our work with children and young people. We suggest that inter-relation between the various programmes should be clearly spelt out as they are largely complementary in achieving the goal of preventing delinquency.
It has been suggested by some people that a comprehensive youth policy should be devised. If it seems premature to formulate such a policy now, I consider it would be more useful for us to have more joint planning, better co-ordination, and closer co-operation among all the parties concerned, both in the public and voluntary sectors, in respect of the services and programmes for young people which now exist or are to be expanded, and thus maximize the utilization of resources. The present Green Paper represents only a part of our efforts to help develop young people into responsible adults. It is important that the community is involved in every possible way to help promote a better environment for the growth of the young people of Hong Kong.
Recognition of the importance of the voluntary agencies
In past decades before Government began its own services many voluntary agencies made a great contribution in working with youth and providing services for them, including preventive programmes. The voluntary agencies are still playing a very important part now. In fact, voluntary agencies have proved their suitability and effectiveness in piloting new schemes and I hope that in future Government will give support, financial and otherwise, to assist voluntary agencies’ experimental projects. I sincerely hope that when the White Paper is published, recognition will be made of the importance of the voluntary agencies and the roles they can play, as instruments for the implementation of youth programmes and services.
956 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
School social work
The objectives of school social work as spelt out in the Green Paper are too broad to be useful. If these were followed, school social work would be a service required by all students as they should all make the most of their education and develop their potential to the full. The forecast of the demand for school social work is a cause for concern, as the group feels that the forecast is extremely arbitrary. The ratio is said to be based on past experience, but so far only a limited number of schools have provided this service, and for a few years only. We suggest that more research work should be conducted in order to provide the planners with more accurate information. The necessity of research is obvious as other proposals in the Green Paper are also based largely on speculation; for example, the proposed assignment of one professional social worker to four secondary schools, or 4,000 pupils. The ratio is not only quite arbitrary, but is, in my opinion, inadequate. It is also very inflexible, as in practice not all schools have the same need for school social work service, and I hope the ratio will be reconsidered and improved. As an alternative, I suggest that the service should be provided on a district basis, with the schools in each district served by a team of social workers who would then work flexibly with the schools within their district, and determine the kind of contact and approach that they should establish with each school. The team of social workers may be attached to a voluntary welfare agency, and this would ensure that the best use of available community services is made to supplement their work with students in schools. At present about 156,341 students are provided with school social work service by about 100 social workers. It is stated in the Green Paper that ten times more students will be covered by this scheme in five years’ time. It is thus obvious that there is an urgent and important need for Government to provide more training facilities in this field. It is hoped that there will be enough psychologists and student counsellors working with social workers in this field in each district.
We agree that at present teachers could be recruited to be student guidance officers, but the Government must ensure that only those with suitable personality, the necessary aptitudes and adequate training are used for this specialized work. I hope that in future only persons with a social work training for these posts will be recruited to work in this field. In order to achieve the best results, it is important for heads of schools, teachers, student guidance officers and social workers and educational psychologists to work closely together. Furthermore, and notwithstanding the provision of a school social work service, we think that teachers in schools should continue to play a significant role in identifying students at risk and initially provide the necessary guidance and help.
Social work among unattached youth
The aim of outreaching social work is to bring to young people services which will help them develop. The Green Paper warns that as the approach
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978 957
has not been sufficiently tested in Hong Kong, caution must be exercised in its expansion. With this I cannot agree. According to the Study on Causes of Crime (1976), ‘only 10% of the young people joined centre services’. The recent estimate of the Hong Kong Council of Social Service shows that the voluntary youth centres are also serving only approximately 10% of the young people in Hong Kong. Despite the provision of three years’ subsidized secondary education, many young people will continue to leave school at an early age. It is therefore urgent that outreaching social work should be expanded, and services brought to the young people in the environment in which they usually spend their leisure time. In this connection, I also urge social work training institutions to give more emphasis to developing the skills of their students in working with unattached youth.
Our ad hoc group is encouraged by the success of the Police Discretionary Scheme and the rehabilitation work carried out under it, and we suggest the Scheme should continue to be given emphasis. However, police officers selected to work in the Juvenile Protection Section must have the right disposition and approach. Appropriate training should also be provided for them to help improve their work and performance. Furthermore, we propose that there should be closer liaison between the Police and the Social Welfare Department in rehabilitating juvenile delinquents. We are particularly concerned about girls found in vice establishments during police raids, and we suggest that more effective procedures should be established for them to be automatically and expeditiously referred to the Social Welfare Department or other organization concerned for immediate assistance. Non-statutory residential homes or refuges for boys and girls with problems which now play a significant role in the work of rehabilitation should be further expanded. I consider that there is still room for improvement in the approach and programme content which are offered in these institutions, especially now that the age ceiling for the protection and care of juveniles under the newly enacted Protection of Women and Juveniles (Amendment) Ordinance has been raised from 16 to 18.
Family life education
The group supports the expansion and conscious promotion of family life education programmes in Hong Kong. Since the success of family life education depends to a large extent on the programmes, special efforts to develop the necessary resource materials are necessary. We suggest that funds should be made available for training or for welfare organizations to develop resource materials in this area.
We recommend that the liaison between Radio Television Hong Kong, the Government Information Services, the Social Welfare Department, the voluntary agencies and the mass media in general should be strengthened I am sure that the success of the family life education programme depends not only on the number of social workers employed for the purpose, but also on the degree of co-ordination and co-operation achieved among
958 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
persons responsible for the design and implementation of the various mass programmes and activities on family life education.
Social attitudes training and moral education
I understand that the Education Department has prepared and is making improvement to the syllabuses on Moral Education and Social Attitudes Training but I must point out that the teaching of values is a very difficult task. The older generation should be very careful in teaching values not only by precept but by example. In my view, the atmosphere of the school is more valuable than many ‘sermons’. The proper use of literature and the stimulation arising from the participation in all kinds of artistic endeavour would do more for the younger generation and their proper understanding of life than the learning of dreary textbooks on moral behaviour.
Finance, training and the role of the voluntary sector
In making the various proposals, the Government admitted that their implementation would rely to a large extent on the support of the voluntary sector. The Green Paper, however, makes no firm financial commitment to any assistance to the voluntary agencies in the provision of their services. It even warns that if funds are insufficient to cover the expansion of personal social work services, there would have to be either a slowing down in expansion or a lowering of standards. This wavering attitude of the Government will make voluntary agencies most hesitant to venture into new areas, especially if the projects are experimental in nature. The existing practice of subventing voluntary agencies on a year-to year basis also adds to the difficulties in developing new services. There is an important need for Government to make adequate financial provisions for the implementation of the proposed programmes in the Green Paper.
The ad hoc group feels strongly about the importance of research and training in the planning and implementation of the proposals in the Green Paper. The solution to the shortage of professional social workers, psychologists, and student counsellors will not be found immediately, but there is indeed much to be done to better deploy existing staff and to train appropriate personnel in the various educational institutions. In fact, unless we have the right kind of workers who possess the appropriate attitudes, skills and experience, the programmes we have and those we plan to meet the needs of young people in Hong Kong will never be successfully implemented.
Conclusion
The publication of the Green Paper represents the concern and interest not only of the Government but of the entire community in the future development of the young people in Hong Kong.
Finally, since personal social work among young people represents only a small part of a much wider area of youth service, I hope that other Green
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Papers concerned with other aspects of this problem area will be presented for consideration. In fact I strongly urge that one White Paper on social welfare be produced in the future to cover all the various areas in this field, including those mentioned in the current Green Papers on social welfare because all these services are so closely related. If we separate them, it will create unnecessary overlapping of planning and uneconomical deployment of manpower and financial resources.
Sir, with these remarks and suggestions, I beg to move.
MR CHEONG-LEEN:―Sir, in 1974-75, the Fight Violent Crime Committee commissioned a study on the social causes of violent crimes among young offenders. The study indicated that crime and delinquency were caused by breakdown in family relationships, inadequate educational and environmental services, and the presence of bad company, such as youth gangs and triads, in the neighbourhood. As recommended by the Study, a programme plan was prepared and completed in August 1977, aimed at preventing young people from becoming involved in delinquent behaviour or criminal activities.
This Green Paper therefore is a summary of the programme plan, which should have commenced from April 1978 for a five-year period with objectives and targets to be rolled forward yearly in the light of actual experience. The total expenditure is estimated to be $20.2 million in 1978-79, going up to $30.5 million in 1982-83.
The Green Paper states that the overall objective is ‘to reduce or prevent anti-social or delinquent behaviour in young people’.
It means identifying young people at risk, assessing their needs, and assisting them to develop into socially acceptable and responsible members of society.
Although there has been a reduction in crime generally, and this includes crime among young people as well, it can be said that the programme plan embodied in this Green Paper is just as necessary as it was when crime among young people was at its height about three years ago.
School Social Work
In the next few years Hong Kong will have nine years of free and compulsory education for all. It is timely for Government to rapidly expand School Social Work to give guidance to students in their academic, social and emotional development, as well as help them resolve their individual problems.
At the end of last year, Government and the voluntary sector were jointly providing school social work to 184 schools with 165,000 students, or just 15% of the student population.
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Because of the serious shortage of professional social workers to meet the needs of the other 85% of the total of 990,000 primary and secondary students, the Green Paper proposes to recruit the services of non-graduate Government primary school teachers who after careful selection will be transferred from class teaching to student guidance work. They will be stationed in primary schools and will be known as Student Guidance Officers. They will have a backup service of educational psychologists and professional social workers either for consultation or to handle complex referral cases.
These student guidance officers should be required to undergo part-time professional training in accordance with a long-term training programme.
In secondary schools where the problems of students are generally more complicated, school social work is expected to be carried out by professional social workers only.
Whether the ratio of one professional social worker to 4,000 pupils or 4 schools will be adequate over the next 5 years will have to be reviewed annually in the light of actual demand and training resources available. On the face of it, this ratio is inadequate; for the School Social Work service in primary schools, Government intends to provide one Student Guidance Officer for 3,000 students in the urban areas and 2,000 students in rural areas. Why not plan the same ratio for the secondary schools where the problems of students can be even more complicated and time-consuming.
School Drop-outs
The position regarding school drop-outs is unsatisfactory and I welcome the proposal that the Education Department intends to pay more attention to this problem.
Government will have to come up with a solution to place in school the 5,000 young children who have yet to see the portals of a primary school. Such a social anomaly is intolerable and has to be rectified by the Government as a matter of social and political responsibility.
Then there are several thousand other youngsters who do not finish primary school and do not go up to Form I. This is an even more undesirable situation which needs top attention by the school social work service.
Furthermore, if we are to hit at the root of the problem of juvenile delinquency, we cannot close our vision to the clear-cut need to revert back to full day session for all Government and aided primary schools as well as to reduce the maximum permitted class size from 45 to 35 pupils.
Social Attitudes Training and Moral Education
It is regrettable that the recommended syllabuses prepared by the Education Department on social attitudes training and moral education have not yet
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been adopted on a wide scale by the schools. Perhaps the Education Department should set up a committee to prepare alternative syllabuses on moral education in schools.
The Department should then redouble its efforts to encourage all schools to adopt the recommended syllabuses. A decision should be taken to introduce social attitudes training and moral education as an integral part of the school curriculum. All School Guidance Officers and professional social workers in schools should promote this work through talks, seminars and discussions.
The quality of teaching, the dedication and methods of teachers and their contact with students, have to be kept at a high level through refresher courses and training programmes. Government should use all reasonable means at its disposal to inculcate into teachers, school social and professional workers a sense of social responsibility, mutual concern and dedicated enthusiasm in teaching, guiding and assisting our younger generation.
Social Work Among Unattached Young People
While compulsory junior secondary education will enable the professional social worker to keep in touch with young people in school up to the age of 15 or 16, it will be a much more difficult task to liaise with young people at risk after that age. I am told that the most dangerous age period is between 16-20, and to a lesser extent between 20-25.
The Green Paper sensibly proposes that the outreaching social work among young people out of school who are potentially at risk ought to be left in the hands of the voluntary sector, where social workers are not usually associated with authority.
Outreaching work teams, comprising both professional social workers and trained non graduate social workers, and based or attached to youth centres, will have to be located in the densely populated urban or New Territories areas where a higher incidence of delinquency exists.
The work of the outreaching work teams need to be continuous monitoring, and in the absence of other more effective measures, these work teams should be expanded and increased as fast as the need becomes apparent or can be anticipated and training resources permit.
The juvenile rehabilitation work carried out by the Police under the Police Discretionary Scheme for first offenders aged 8-15 should be strengthened, and the Police officers engaged in the Scheme be given basic social work training.
Family Life Education
As part of the process of social development in Hong Kong, the voluntary agencies have been promoting family life education for over ten years already. Following the recommendation of the Sub-Committee on Social Causes of
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Crime, the Government also deployed staff from the Social Welfare Department to expand this work.
The family has always played an essential role in Chinese tradition and civilization, and in these days of rapid social change, the emphasis being given by Government to preserve and strengthen the family as a social unit deserves to be fully supported.
In particular, the Family Life Education Scheme aims to ameliorate the negative impact of living in an industrialized community with its tendency to disintegrate the family unit, and the consequent harmful effects on the individual in society. This Scheme therefore will encourage the harmonious preservation of the family as a social unit, with beneficial results for both young people as well as for parents in their old age.
It is proposed that the Social Welfare Department be responsible for the overall planning and administration of family life education services, coordinating and liaising with other Government departments and voluntary agencies, organizing major programmes and publicity campaigns, and giving assistance to the voluntary agencies wherever required.
Other Provisions
There are of course other indirect or ancilliary measures which are part of an integrated approach towards implementing this Programme Plan. These measures include more camping and recreational facilities, monitoring film and TV to ensure that such media do not obviously encourage violence or anti-social values, improving the employment services for young people, reducing the incidence of drug abuse among teenagers, and tightening control of triads to eliminate their malevolent influence among young people.
A large number of young gangs exist which are directly or indirectly under triad influence. They hang around street corners, playgrounds, billiard saloons and other places. Top priority will have to be given towards plugging the gaps within each district where young people are being sucked into the world of drug abuse and of triad or quasi-triad domination. A close degree of co-operation will be required at such district level among all concerned to achieve this goal.
Co-ordination
With over 2.3 million young people (or half of our population) being under the age of 25, it should be the overall aim of Government and the voluntary sector to give them every opportunity to develop into intelligent and responsible citizens through active involvement in various youth and community organizations. These young people need very much to acquire from an early age a sense of personal dignity, love of community, and willingness to become involved. They need to feel that they themselves are part of a caring community, a concerned community.
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Such an approach, which is what the Government’s Community Building Programme is all about, has to be integrated with the other basic services for young people, which include education, housing, medical, social security, youth employment, recreation, sports and culture.
If Government is planning an integrated service approach for the elderly, or those over 60 years of age, there is no reason why an equally integrated approach in social development cannot be planned for young people below the age of 25.
There is an apparent need for Government to set up an Advisory Committee to monitor and co-ordinate the proposals in the Green Paper, reduce inter-departmental rivalries and duplication of youth services, while taking cognizance of the other basic services which are already being provided. Such a Committee should be chaired by an Unofficial Member, with both official and unofficial participation.
Closer links and exchanges of views could also be enhanced between Government and the voluntary sector through an annual workshop or seminar on youth services.
As to coordination of the Green Paper proposals at the district level, this should follow the team approach in which the CDO the Community Youth Officer and the representatives of the Education Department, the Police and the other concerned Government departments would be involved.
Also, Government ought to review the future use of the Inter-Departmental Committee on Services for Youth. Has it stagnated beyond redemption due to the absence of an Unofficial presence in its membership?
Another area for development by Government is the encouragement of more participation by community leaders at the City District level in the running of, and in making more financial contributions to support the district community centres and halls, and the district youth centres.
Prisons
I understand too that the programme plan covered by this Green Paper excludes correctional services geared towards recividism among young offenders, which are mainly undertaken by the Prisons Department. We will have to be very careful that the different Government departments will not be working too much in separate compartments, each to its own. The overall or integrated approach has to be paramount if we are to keep on reducing the number of young people entering prison or turning to crime at an early age.
Conclusion
Finally, Sir, may I stress that the level of violent crime is no longer as serious as it was 3 or 4 years ago. It is mainly for this reason that the name of the Fight Violent Crime Committee, both at the central co-ordinating and the
964 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
district levels, has been shortened to Fight Crime Committee. However, the need to provide an expanded programme of Personal Social Work to assist young people, whether in school or out of school, to resolve their individual problems so that they will not turn to anti-social or criminal activity is still a matter of pressing importance. In fact, the overall objective of the Green Paper should aim to do more than simply reducing or preventing anti-social or delinquent behaviour in young people as mentioned in the objective; it should in concept and implementation seek to motivate and guide these young people to become good, responsible and participating citizens of Hong Kong.
Sir, I support the motion.
MR ALEX WU:―Sir, the Green Paper on the Development of Personal Social Work among Young People has been the subject of much valuable comment by the public and some of my Colleagues have already expounded on its proposals and some will have more to say later. I wish to comment briefly on only two aspects.
The first concerns social work amongst school children. The Green Paper says in paragraph 2.7: ‘Ideally, school social work should be carried out by professional social workers’. The ideal position is said to be one professional social worker to 4,000 pupils or four schools. I don’t see how, on that basis, a social worker or a student guidance officer could have any constructive contact with young people. It would inevitably be a case of referring a student to the social worker which would in itself be a stigma. The disgrace itself could create long lasting ill effects for the student.
In family life the ideal person to guide and correct the child is the parent. In school life the ideal person to guide and correct a student is a teacher. If we are talking about ideals then the ideal situation is for form teachers to give close attention to their students and not only to detect but also to correct undesirable behaviour.
There is without doubt a need for professional social workers to advise and consult but not to take the place of teachers any more than they should take the place of parents.
Paragraph 2.2 of the Green Paper recognizes the important role of teachers but seems to me to assume too readily that they will have to turn to social workers to do the job which a good teacher should do naturally.
It would be more constructive, and more economical to devote resources to equipping school teachers with more knowledge of behavioural problems and their solution. I shall have more to say about teacher training when this Council discusses the Green Paper on Senior Secondary and Tertiary Education.
My second point also concerns the economical application of our resources. The Green Paper is about encouraging and assisting young people to become
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mature, responsible and contributing members of society. Following that statement of its purpose, the Green Paper goes on to mention a few youth groups.
I can think of one youth service, which is not mentioned, which states its objectives in the following words: ‘To develop those qualities of maturity and responsibility in young people which will help them throughout their lives, in their homes, their jobs and their relations with other people, whatever their abilities or circumstances’. These are, virtually, the words of the Green Paper itself. The fact is however they may be stated, these objectives are shared by a large number of voluntary agencies already at work in the community and in many case receiving financial assistance from the Government.It would seem, therefore, further consideration is necessary before a whole new machinery is proposed to do the same work without being able to say that the potential of these existing organizations has been exhausted.
I very much doubt whether the potential for social work among unattached young people by existing agencies has been exhausted.
I hope that before the White Paper is approved, there will be in-depth consultations with all the voluntary agencies working in this field before we commit ourselves to an expensive alternative.
There is certainly a need for professional services for those young people who show symptoms of delinquency and the provision of personal social work among such young people deserves a prominent place in the social programme. We must, however, keep a definite sense of proportion. Services for the delinquent must always be regarded as only a part of a larger programme of constructive development.
The Green Paper gets this right in its first paragraph but too much of what follows tends to emphasise the negative aspect: concentrating on those who are not becoming mature, responsible and contributing members of society. Certainly, we must take care of them but not at the expense of a much greater effort and a much greater proportional expenditure on the total youth development programme.
With these remarks, Sir, I support the motion.
REV. JOYCE M. BENNETT:―Sir, the Green Paper on Development of Personal Social Work Among Young People in Hong Kong brings together many aspirations of teachers and social workers. At present the teachers are welloccupied in school coping with heavy teaching programmes to crowded classes. It is a joy to know that there is to be provision of social workers to help students with behavioural problems, with learning difficulties and with family problems that aggravate personal mal-adjustments.
In recent years schools that have attempted to meet such needs of their students have frequently been overwhelmed by the problems involved. They
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have been grateful for the agencies providing help because they have known that they themselves were only able to counsel a small proportion of those involved. I very much doubt therefore whether the numbers of school social workers planned in this survey will be adequate. One worker to four secondary schools will involve that worker in serving about five thousand students, perhaps even more. Or is it planned for the bigger schools to be given a higher proportion of the worker’s time?
I can however understand why the Government sets its sight so low, as so many workers cannot be trained overnight. Indeed I wonder what the student guidance officers for primary schools with three months’ training can achieve. I wonder why we cannot increase the ratio of teachers to primary school classes, so that the class teacher can become the true guide, philosopher and friend of the primary child. It will be much easier for these primary school student guidance officers to do a satisfactory job if they are fully integrated into the primary school.
Actually the Green Paper does not clearly lay down their function, so one is left uncertain of their precise duties. I suspect that without firm leadership and wise help from the principals and senior teachers they may well be at a loss concerning their exact role in the school. Student guidance officers, who will be trained teachers out of a job, will need considerable guidance themselves. Until they have gained experience, we must not expect too much of them. However the Green Paper is silent on this.
I note in paragraph 2.19 one of the duties of the student guidance officers will be to check attendance at school. I think a great deal of positive work needs to be done in this whole area. Will these officers have the expertise to become family case workers, because non-attendance at school by a primary school child is a family problem? Indeed all types of school social workers should be based in family centres so that the help rendered to the student can be given to the whole family unit. We must not segregate and isolate our problem children. Our workers will not succeed unless they help the families to help their problem children help themselves. Children in these areas of need have to be taught to communicate with their parents and the parents to understand and talk with their children. The Green Paper has a section on family life education, but little depth has been provided. I trust that this will be amplified in the coming White Paper.
Too often schools do not know how to help the student rejected by the family. It is good to know that certain non-statutory residential homes for problem boys and girls are under-utilized at present. Details of these should be more widely known. There is a curious miscellany of information in Chapter 5 ancillary provisions; the under-utilization of these temporary hostels is mentioned there. The possible influence of news and TV media also finds a place there. Those of us working among girls in the deprived areas of our community have witnessed this influence. Undoubtedly we hesitate to recommend strict control of the television, since we know enforcement is so
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difficult to ensure, but we need to be more positive than the Green Paper in relation to the news and media, as also in relation to the control of triads. These are social problems of our society, we must take positive measures to tackle them with first-class training of social workers and in-service courses for teachers. Let us be clear the success of the former will depend on the co-operation of the latter.
Unfortunately the methods of training all these workers, together with the educational psychologists and psychiatrists are not clearly laid down. Make no mistake we are desperately short of educational psychologists (indeed of psychologists to work with any kind of disturbed person) and psychiatrists. Let us hurry and attract back to Hong Kong those who have been trained and are working overseas. We need them to serve the future young people of Hong Kong. As the population increases, the young will be increasingly cramped by the urban sprawl all over the New Territories. They will need to go further afield to the country parks to find the space to play and develop their personalities. We must be more positive in our co-operation with all the present agencies working among young people. There is a danger in our current series of green papers in fragmenting our problems and our resources. May I urge once more the Secretary for Social Services to coordinate all the work among young people? Perhaps the White Paper can provide for us a clear picture of all the present forces for good in our community. Then the proposals for the expansion of preventive social work among the young will fall into proper perspective.
With these remarks, I have pleasure in supporting the motion.
MR WONG LAM:―(speech delivered in the Cantonese dialect)
督憲閣㆘：「本港青少年個㆟輔導社會工作之發展」綠皮書，關係本港年青㆒ 代的發展，影響極為深遠，書㆗所論，頗多㆗肯意見，但其㆗亦有不少值得商 榷之處，應再作詳細考慮。
首先是最基本的理論問題。綠皮書 重以個體為對象，認為只要把個別有 問題的青少年找出，由社會工作者加以輔導，便可減少或消除其走入歧途的機 會。此點或許過份樂觀，因為很多時個㆟的問題只是整個社會問題的反映，或 因整個社會的某種問題而引起，如果不以整個社會問題為解決的對象，而希望 以個體為對象來解決，實在是事倍功半，甚或徒勞而無功的。舉例來說，目前 種種影響青少年身心、或因之而使青年㆟走入歧途的因素，如某些不負責任及 無公德的大眾傳播媒介，過份擠迫及無㆞溫習的居住環境，過份 重考試成績 的教育制度等，綠皮書㆗只極輕 描淡寫 的 提 及，甚或 全 無 提 及。對㆒ 名 社會工 作者而 言 ，如果他所輔導的對象走入歧途的 原 因 與㆖述 因素有關，試問其工作 又 如 何 能夠順利 展 開 ？本㆟認為要解決青少年㆟走入歧途的問題， 單 靠 社會工 作者的輔導工作，實在是不 足 夠 的 ， 必 須 要 靠 多 方 面 ㆟士，如教育 部 門 及教育 工作者、 房 屋 部 門 、大眾傳播 部 門 及工作者等多 方 面 的合作， 才 有 美 好 成 效 的 希 望 ； 而政府在計劃青少年輔導工作時， 也必須 把這些有關的社會問題，詳加 研 究 及作為解決的對象。只有在這種 具 有 全盤性 的計劃㆘， 才 能 在青少年輔導 工 作 ㆖ ，收到 美 滿 的成果。
其 次 是 在 學校推 行 學 生 輔導計劃的問題。 培養學生 的德育及 協 助 其解決個 ㆟的問題，實在是教 師 職 責極重要的㆒ 部 份，如果 強 把這些工作 與 教 師 的 職 責 分 開 ，而把 協助學生 個㆟問題的工作 交給學生 輔 導 主 任處理，很有可 能 引 起 兩 種 反 效 果。其㆒：這 樣 無 形 ㆗ 鼓 勵 教 師 們 只 重 知 識 的傳播，因而減少對 學 生
的 關 注 ； 其 ㆓ ：被輔導的 學 生 很 容 易 因 為 接受了 ㆒ 種 與 眾 不 同 的處理而感到 侷 促羞恥 ，因而 產 生 其他的問題。 即 使 撇 開 這 兩 點不論，本㆟認為把 部 份政府 小 學 教 師 改 編 為
968 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 24 May 1978
輔 導 主 任的安排，亦未 必 如 想 像 ㆗理想。其㆒：未 必 有 足 夠 的 教 師自願 或適合 受 訓 而改任輔導 主 任，而任何 強 迫 性 的 調 任 很 容 易 引起不 滿 ， 從 而大為減 低 其 輔導工作的 效 率 ，及此計劃成功的可 能性； 其 ㆓ ：輔導工作實 際 ㆖ 是㆒種 艱 鉅 的工作，輔導 主 任 必須具 有 高水平 的心理及社會 學 的 專門知識 ，政府所安排的 特 別 訓練課程能 否 在 短期內 把 大 量 的 小 學 教 師訓練 成 良 好 的輔導 主 任，實在 也 是 令 ㆟ 擔 心的問題。
有 關 外 展的工作，本㆟認為政府在未 投 入 大 量 ㆟ 力 、 物力於 這 方 面 的工作 之前，應 當 確 切 衡 量 這種工作過 往 的 收 效 如何？ 誠 如綠皮書所 言 ，這是㆒種極 為 吃 力 而 未 必討好 的工作，如果無任何肯 定 性 的 成 效 ， 則 不 必急急 把 寶 貴 的 ㆟ 力 、 物力投 入 這 方 面 的工作。
綠皮書㆗對 家庭生活 教育頗為重 視 ， 並臚列 出 推 行這種教育工作的種種 方 法，這是很值得 支 持 的 ㆒ 項 工作。不 過，令 ㆟ 極 端 費 解 的 卻 是在㆟ 手分配方面 ， 在綠皮書 第㆕章第七節 ㆗認為 據經驗 所得， 每十萬 ㆟ 才 需 要 ㆒ 名 這 方 面 的社會 工作者，而 ㆕ 百 多 萬 ㆟ 口 只 需 要 數十名 這 樣 的 ㆟ 手 。 不 知 這個㆒對 十 萬 的 比 率 如何計 算 得來，而所 謂 過 往經驗 之 可 靠 程 度 又 如何？ （ 值 得 順 帶 ㆒ 提 的 是 小 學 輔 導 主 任 所 需 的 ㆟ 數 又 不 知 從 何 推 斷 得來？ ）
此 外 ，綠皮書㆗ 提 及在㆗ 學 推 行德育 課 程 的問題，而 指 部 份 學 校 未 能採納 這 些 課 程 ， 未 知 政 府 曾 否考慮 強 迫 性 推 行這些 課 程 ， 相 信 此點㆒ 定 會得到社會 ㆟士的 支 持 的 。
督憲閣㆘，本㆟ 支 持 此 項動議 。
(The following is the interpretation of what Mr WONG Lam said)
Sir, the Green Paper on Development of Personal Social Work Among Young People in Hong Kong is closely related to the development of our younger generation and thus has far-reaching effects. Many of the ideas in the Green Paper are right to the point. However, there are also areas which do require further discussion and re-examination.
First, let us consider the basic principles. The emphasis of the Green Paper is placed on the individual, reckoning that when those young people with problems are identified and given guidance by social workers, the chance of their going astray will be minimized or eliminated. Such thinking is perhaps too optimistic. Very often, personal problems are but a reflection of the problems of the whole community, or have arisen from certain social problems. Therefore, the results are likely to fall short of our expectations despite our great efforts which may prove fruitless if we hope to solve the problems on the individual level rather than by tackling them as social problems. For example, the various factors which influence the mind and body of our young people, leading them astray, such as some of the irresponsible and indiscriminate mass media, an overcrowded living environment and the lack of space for study at home, and a very much examination-oriented education system etc., are either touched very lightly or not mentioned at all in the Green Paper. So, if the object of the guidance of a social worker is a young person who has gone astray because of one of these factors, how can the social worker discharge his work satisfactorily? On my part, I think it is insufficient to rely solely on the guidance work of social workers to prevent young people from going astray. We must also enlist the co-operation of many other sectors, such as the Education Department and the educationalists, the Housing Department, and the mass media, before we can hope to achieve
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good results. At the same time, when planning guidance work for the young people, Government must carefully study the related social problems and devise solutions. It is only by means of comprehensive and integrated planning that fruitful results can be attained in the field of youth guidance.
The next problem concerns the provision of Student Guidance Services in schools. It is indeed an extremely important part of a teacher’s responsibility to cultivate moral education among the students and help them solve their personal problems. If such duty is to be divorced from the teacher’s work and assigned to the student guidance officers, it may very possibly produce the following counter-effects:―
1. It would imperceptibly encourage teachers to attach importance only to the imparting of knowledge thus reducing their personal concern for the students. 2. The students being offered guidance may feel ashamed or embarrassed as they are treated differently and this may lead to other problems.
Even leaving these two points alone, I still think that it may not be as desirable as imagined to redeploy some of the teachers in Government primary schools as student guidance officers. First of all, there may not be enough teachers willing or suitable to be trained as student guidance officers, and any compulsory transfer would easily lead to discontent, thereby cutting down their efficiency in guidance work and the possible success of the Scheme itself.
Secondly, student guidance is really a very difficult job. Student guidance officers must possess a high level of professional knowledge in psychology and sociology. Another cause for concern is whether the special training courses organized by Government are able to train up, within a short time, a large number of primary school teachers to be good student guidance officers.
With regard to outreaching social work, I think the past results should first be assessed before Government commits a large amount of manpower and financial resources in this area. As remarked in the Green Paper, this type of personal social work is very demanding and not necessarily attractive. If it is uncertain what positive results could be attained, then it is not necessary to invest our valuable resources in this field in a hurry.
The Green Paper attaches considerable importance to family life education, listing the many approaches to promote this type of education. It is well worthy of our support. What is most puzzling, however, is the staffing ratio. The Green Paper recommends in paragraph 7, Chapter 4, that ‘on the basis of experience so far, a staffing ratio of one professional worker to every 10,000 population is considered reasonable’. In other words, only a few dozen of such social workers should be required for our 4 million population. I wonder how the Green Paper has worked out this ratio and how reliable is the past experience. May I ask in passing how the number of student guidance officers required has been arrived at?
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The Green Paper also discusses the introduction of moral education in secondary schools and states that syllabuses in this particular area have not been adopted by some schools. I wonder if Government has considered making these syllabuses an integral part of the school curriculum which, I believe, will be supported by the public.
With these observations, Sir, I support the motion before Council.
SECRETARY FOR SOCIAL SERVICES:―Sir, I am very grateful to Miss Ko for initiating this debate, and to all the Honourable Members who have spoken to this motion or participated in Miss Ko’s ad hoc group on the Green Paper on Development of Personal Social Work Among Young People in Hong Kong. I must also take this opportunity to thank all members of the public, including the tertiary institutions responsible for training social workers and the voluntary sector, who have commented on the Green Paper since its publication last November. I can report that their response has generally been favourable, and in this connection a word of thanks must go to the Council of Social Service for their participation in formulating the programme plan.
Sir, while I do not propose to answer all the points made this afternoon I will make a few observations which I hope will contribute towards understanding the Government’s approach to this programme plan. Notwithstanding the introductory paragraphs to the Green Paper, there has been some criticism of the narrow scope of the plan and concern expressed over the purpose of personal social work. Here I will repeat that the Government attaches great importance to the development of our young people into mature, responsible and contributing members of society. Evidence of this is available in the significant increase in the range of activities in recent years which cater specifically or largely for young people, under the general guidance and overall direction of the Secretary for Home Affairs. Some of these figures have already been given in the Green Paper, but one point I wish to stress is that more than one-third of all young people in the age range from 6 to 20 are taking part in some form of organized youth or recreation activity in their spare time. We believe that this proportion will continue to increase in the years ahead as additional facilities are provided in the country parks and new towns and by the Urban Council, and as various youth and recreation services are developed by the Government and the voluntary sector. It is also common ground that relief of overcrowding, improved standards of housing and a better general environment can also contribute to a lessening of tendencies towards delinquency. Of course, the Government’s housing and new town developments are surging ahead. Honourable Members may, therefore, rest assured that there will be no slackening of effort in these various directions.
The basis of the Government approach to the proposals in the Green Paper is that despite all our efforts, there will always be a proportion of young
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people whose individual needs and problems cannot be met by the basic services and mass activities already provided. They will then have left themselves out from the network of organized community activities for youth. These young people then become more vulnerable to delinquent influences. The aim of personal social work in the context of the Green Paper is to guide and help these young people become better adjusted members of society. Frankly this is an area of relatively new endeavour, and Hong Kong is not alone in this regard. But in the Government’s view this is where we have some leeway to catch up and where we are likely to achieve the most progress with the limited professional resources available to us.
Miss KO, Mr CHEONG-LEEN, and Miss BENNETT all consider the staffing ratios proposed in the Green Paper for school social work to be inadequate. This criticism may well be valid, but we must be realistic and make an early start with the manpower resources likely to be available. On the other hand, Mr Alex WU and Mr WONG Lam consider that student guidance is the primary responsibility of teachers, and the latter counsels circumspection in our development of various forms of school social work. Taking into account all these relevant factors and having regard to the demand for social workers in other fields of activity, the proposals in the Green Paper appear to represent a reasonable starting point. Of course, these provisions must be reviewed annually in the light of actual demand and operating experience.
Finally, I would like to thank Miss Ko for her suggestion that the proposals in the three Green Papers in the social welfare field currently under consideration might be combined into a single White Paper on social welfare: in other words update ‘The Way Ahead’ which was published in 1973. We shall certainly give this point and all the other constructive suggestions made in this debate and by the public the most careful consideration before reaching any final conclusions.
With these remarks, Sir, I support the motion.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjournment and next sitting
HIS EXCELLENCY THE PRESIDENT:―In accordance with Standing Orders I now adjourn the Council until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday the 7 of June.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty minutes past four o’clock.
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