OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
ミ猭Ы穦某筁祘タΑ魁
Thursday, 27 Feburary 1997
るら琍戳
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
と230だ穦某秨﹍
MEMBERS PRESENT
畊某
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
畊独Щ祇某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
㏄辩睶┥某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
琖皇某Q.C., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
畕地某
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
︙┯ぱ某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
甃ㄎ瞶某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
糂胺祸某O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE EDWARD LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P.
辩醇翬某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
朝岸穨某
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
眎ゅ某
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
糕蚌┚某
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
糂紌某
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
ッ笷某
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, O.B.E., J.P.
產不某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
地某
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
璣某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
襖略ビ某
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, O.B.E., F.Eng., J.P.
独篿某O.B.E., F.Eng., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
法此某
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
独岸藉某
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
嘲糠某
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
バ玊某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
某
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM
朝挪狶某
THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN
朝篴篱某
THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN
朝胞糭某
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW CHENG KAR-FOO
綠產碔某
THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG
綠模磁某
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN
︙玊く某
THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM
腑瓣辆某
THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK
糂ホ某
THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.
糂簙煌某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG
霉璓某
THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING
币某
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG
辩模┚某
THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE
郭Θ某
THE HONOURABLE MARGARET NG
艷祸某
THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI
虫ヲ昂某
THE HONOURABLE TSANG KIN-SHING
纯胺Θ某
DR THE HONOURABLE JOHN TSE WING-LING
谅ッ闹某
THE HONOURABLE MRS ELIZABETH WONG CHIEN CHI-LIEN, C.B.E., I.S.O., J.P.
独窥ㄤ军某C.B.E., I.S.O., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAWRENCE YUM SIN-LING
ヴ到圭某
MEMBERS ABSENT
畊某
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
腜某C.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D. (CANTAB), J.P.
瓣腳某O.B.E., LL.D. (CANTAB), J.P.
THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
ぶ城某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
糂祇某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
毒浪膀某
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
︙庇古某
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA, M.B.E.
独綺笽某M.B.E.
DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
独﹜グ某
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
法У地某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN
綠癡某
DR THE HONOURABLE ANTHONY CHEUNG BING-LEUNG
眎▆某
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG
眎簙┚某
THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P.
讲蚌某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN
Χギ棚某
DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK
霉不瓣某
THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING
霉睲某
THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN
馋莱某
THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN
肅繟某
PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING
畊そ戮
THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, C.B.E., J.P.
CHIEF SECRETARY
︽現Ы某ガ現朝よネC.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, O.B.E., J.P.
FINANCIAL SECRETARY
︽現Ы某癩現纯疆舦ネO.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
ATTORNEY GENERAL
︽現Ы某現皑碔到ネC.M.G., J.P.
MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
現叭甝喘ネC.B.E., J.P.
MR CHAU TAK-HAY, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT
ゅ眃約冀㏄紈撼ネC.B.E., J.P.
MR GORDON SIU KWING-CHUE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT
笲块拷琖ネJ.P.
MR NICHOLAS NG WING-FUI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS
舅ㄆ叭篴ネJ.P.
MR DOMINIC WONG SHING-WAH, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING
┬独琍地ネO.B.E., J.P.
MRS KATHERINE FOK LO SHIU-CHING, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE
徖ネ褐繬霉璼O.B.E., J.P.
MR RAFAEL HUI SI-YAN, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES
癩竒ㄆ叭砛くネJ.P.
MR JOSEPH WONG WING-PING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER
毙▅参膚ッキネJ.P.
MR PETER LAI HING-LING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
玂兢紋圭ネJ.P.
MR BOWEN LEUNG PO-WING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
砏购吏挂現辩腳篴ネJ.P.
MISS DENISE YUE CHUNG-YEE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY
坝玕﹙┥J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAM WOON-KWONG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE
そ叭ㄆ叭狶坟ネJ.P.
CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE
畊
MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, SECRETARY GENERAL
毒更不ネ
PURSUANT TO STANDING ORDER 4AA, HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR, THE RIGHT HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER FRANCIS PATTEN, ATTENDED TO ADDRESS THE COUNCIL AND TO RECEIVE QUESTIONS.
羆服碸﹚眃ネㄌ沮穦某盽砏材4AA兵砏﹚畊穦某セЫ璓勉钡借高
畊叫︗某膥尿ミ单羆服秈穦某芔
翠羆服
畊羆服穦碞硄某ぇ3兜肈ヘ氮某ぇ借高︗某矗借高莉氮滦矗1兜虏祏ぇ蛤秈借高璶哪赣氮滦ぃぇ矪赣3ㄆ兜翠舦ㄆ﹜┬のρの穝簿チτ砞狝叭叫︗某庢もボ種糂ホ某
糂ホ某拜畊現┎琌ご礛穦膥尿癸セ翠瞷︽猭秈︽浪癚Τ猭ㄒ笻は翠舦猭兵ㄒ琌穦秈︽璹翠┎穦セミ猭Ы穦戳緇丁ず矗ユ穝э猭ㄒ兵ㄒ
GOVERNOR: We have almost completed our review of ordinances. There are one or two other ordinances that we have been looking at, for example, the Telecommunications Ordinance, following the proposals of the Law Reform Commission. I have said again and again to this Council that it was our determination to make sure that we placed before the Council before 30 June proposals which would ensure that our statute book was in line with the Bill of Rights. I have not changed my position and the Government has not changed its position on that. So we may be requiring even more work from the Legislative Council in the future.
糂ホ某拜畊羆服氮矗Τ闽筿癟兵ㄒ叫拜ㄤ猭ㄒㄒΤ闽縒ミщ禗牡诡の窽ゎ猍跌兵ㄒ琌σ納絛瞅ぇず㎡
GOVERNOR: Well, let me distinguish between those issues. First of all on discrimination, on legislation on discrimination, the Honourable gentleman will know that we already have in place legislation dealing with discrimination against people on grounds of their gender. He will know that we have legislation in place against discrimination on the grounds of disability and he will know that we are acting as well on discrimination on family responsibilities. We are legislating on all those issues and we are asking the Equal Opportunities Commission to cover those questions as part of its responsibilities.
He will also know that we have proposed to take administrative measures rather than legislate in regard to discrimination on the grounds of sexual preference. He will know the proposals we have put forward regarding discrimination against those of older years, and he will also know that we are consulting the public about the very good study that has been carried out on whether or not there is discrimination in Hong Kong on the grounds of race. We have not thought it appropriate at this time to go for legislation on each of those subjects, but by and large, we have, I think, gone as far as the community thought was sensible. And I am delighted the Equal Opportunities Commission has made such a good start.
As far as the police complaints machinery is concerned, the Honourable gentleman will know that we are putting that on a statutory basis, that there are proposals before the Legislative Council which the Legislative Council is debating. But let me just repeat, I have said consistently that we would review all our statute book to make sure that it was in line with the International Covenants and the Bill of Rights. Even those who do not agree with me would, I think, concede that I do what I say I will do, and that remains our intention.
畊币某
币某拜畊叫拜羆服ネ穦钡и-
患ユ倒ㄧンず5現囊㎝骋刮砰璶―糤ρ侯穿300じの矗蔼侯穿戈肂︓10窾じㄏ锭摧酚痙笵眒柳ρ產糤睰ㄇ放穢
GOVERNOR: I was grateful for the Honourable gentleman's greeting outside the Legislative Council. One or two of my old friends and customers were there as well, but it was a particular joy to have the Honourable gentleman waiting for me with a lantern and his cheery good wishes for the New Year.
I understand the concern which all Members of the Legislative Council have about the living standards of the elderly. As Hong Kong becomes more prosperous, and the scale of Hong Kong's prosperity was once again underlined in the admirable speech which my honourable friend, the Financial Secretary, made earlier today, I think it is understandable that people should want to ensure that the elderly share in our increasing prosperity, though the elderly themselves would, I am sure, wish us to keep a prudent control over public spending just as they have prudently managed their own finances over the years.
The Honourable gentleman may know that since 1992 we have increased spending on services for the elderly by about 94% in real terms. Comprehensive Social Security Assistance rates for the elderly have, I think, gone up by about 100% in real terms. Now, that has led some to assert that we are driving the car too fast. I think that was the metaphor. It has led some to assert, which is not as good for my reputation as I would like, that I am a socialist or a welfarist, that I am wrecking Hong Kong's economy. I am sure the Honourable gentleman would be the first to denounce those who made those sort of allegations.
The truth is that we have been meeting our obligations to the elderly. We must continue to give their concerns and interests the highest priority while, of course, ensuring that Hong Kong's economy is managed very sensibly.
Perhaps I can just add two things. The Social Welfare Department is conducting two studies at the moment which will, I am sure, be the focus for considerable discussion and debate. The first is a study, which will be available in the late summer, into the financial needs of the elderly and how those are met at the moment. The second study, which I think all Members would regard as particularly important, is into the reasons why some elderly people who are existing on very low incomes at the moment do not claim social security and seek to make do on their own without the help to which they are wholly entitled. I think both those studies will ensure that we can develop our policies in a way which is both generous and well-targeted.
畊︙┯ぱ某
︙┯ぱ某拜畊и稱拜羆服ネΤ闽┬拜肈パ現┎程环┬郸菠浪癚吭高ゅンい矗の翠ゼㄓ10癸┬惠―だち箇代–璶砍8窾虫︗叫拜現┎Τσ納戈方琌ì镑笷–硂玻秖ヘ夹㎡
GOVERNOR: I think that we should have enough resources to meet those targets. But I do see the point which the Honourable gentlemen is making not least as a professional in this field himself, and I think it is a point that has been made by his honourable friend on his right. We do need to look at administrative procedures, and we do need to look at the quantity of professional support that we have in order to speed up those administrative procedures wherever possible. Some of the hold-ups we have are because of the lack of professional expertise when so much is happening in Hong Kong, when there is so much building going on. We have got ideas about sharpening up our procedures and I hope that we will be able to do so. Can I just add a word or two to what the Honourable gentlemen said.
We should be able to reach that rather higher target of 85 000 homes per year largely because we have actually increased the amount of land available in the next five years for private development by about 80% over the amount of land that was available in the last five years. We are, of course, looking beyond 2001, beyond that five-year time horizon as well. We are looking to the years beyond that when it is our intention to try to build in some margin for error in the calculations made, for example, in the Territorial Development Strategy Review, and add about 7% to the target figure for housing each year in the period beyond that. That is going to require a lot of administrative drive from the Government and we are well aware of some of the problems that we have got to overcome.
︙┯ぱ某拜畊ㄤ龟и借高琌Τ闽戈方よ埃盡穨珹骋現┎穦σ納砍穝诀初み祘璹兜参膚璸购ㄏи-
Τì镑縱穨骋
GOVERNOR: I have to say to the Honourable gentleman that the question of supply problems because of a shortage of skilled labour in the industry is not something that has been raised with me before. I very much hope that as our training schemes become more flexible and take greater account of industrial demand, if there are shortages in the construction industry of plumbers and electricians and so on, then the training body will be able to help us deal with that problem more quickly. But if the Honourable gentleman has particular problems of labour shortage in mind, perhaps he could let me know and I will look into them for him.
畊霉璓某
霉璓某拜畊る現┎︳璸るら穦Τ29 000ㄠ担才膀セ猭材兵兵ン局Τ翠﹡痙舦叫拜羆服ネ現┎瞷Τヴ︙現郸┪よ猭箇ň硂29 000ㄠ担るら祏戳ず硓筁ぃ硚畖撮翠狦⊿Τ杠τ痷瞷硂贺薄猵現┎瞷Τヴ︙璸购碞-
毙▅┬㎝褐惠璶单拜肈蹦莱跑惫琁
GOVERNOR: Perhaps I can give the Honourable gentleman a rather more extensive set of figures which will give some indication of the demand that we may well have to adjust to. The latest estimates we have and we went through this exercise in November last year suggest that at the end of 1996, there were 84 300 women married to Hong Kong men who had the right to come to Hong Kong and there were in China 46 200 children with the right of abode in Hong Kong in July 1997. We reckon that by the middle of this year, in other words, by 1 July, those figures will have fallen somewhat, that there will be about 76 500 women and 34 900 children, making just over 111 000 altogether.
The Honourable gentleman will know that for almost two years since July 1995, we have increased the daily quota into Hong Kong from 105 to 150, and as a result of that legal immigration from China last year, totalled just over 61 000.
And that has, of course, put something of a strain on welfare and educational and housing resources in some parts of the community. I have recently been, for example, to Sham Shui Po, to Eastern District, to Kowloon District to talk to the District Boards and others in those communities about the way that they are coping with these issues. I went to an extremely good elementary school in Kowloon the other day and saw what they were doing. I met a group of new immigrants in Eastern District and talked to them about the sort of information they need in order to adjust to life in the community. We do have to do more in areas like education in order to help new immigrants. The Council has only recently voted another $500 million to help with the training of newly-arrived immigrants. I am sure that this is a subject which the Financial Secretary in due course will want to address over the next year as well.
I think the whole community recognizes the importance of us ensuring that immigrants are able as soon as possible after their arrival in Hong Kong to make a full contribution to our economic and social life. Very often, that means better-targeted programmes to help them.
霉璓某拜羆服ネ⊿Τ氮и借高みぇ矪矗ㄑ穝计弧穦Τ34 900ㄠ担才膀セ猭璶―沮瓣悔篋ㄒ┪и-
┮宽酚炊硄猭à,狦-
敖寸ㄓ翠,┪Τ蛮祘靡翠筄戳﹡痙и-
ぃ镑р-
患秆挂狦硂34 900ㄠ担ㄓ翠и-
╯澈穦︙矪瞶и-
Τよ猭ňゎ-
祏戳ず撮翠"矰繷"ず約獂床冀亮ē弧-
ㄓ翠ぃノ瞒秨狦痷Τ34 900ㄠ担ㄓ翠и-
程ぶ惠璶35┮厩ㄓ酚臮-
и-
︙矪瞶硂拜肈㎡
GOVERNOR: Well, can I distinguish between the importance of discouraging illegal and encouraging legal immigration on the one hand, and secondly, the impact on our educational service caused by the increase in the number of children who are coming into Hong Kong, very often with language difficulties and other difficulties in adjusting. On the first of the Honourable gentleman's questions, there is certainly, as far as I recall, no recent evidence of an increase in illegal entry into Hong Kong by people from China, whether or not people with the right of abode after 1 July 1997, and I think that is probably partly a result of the sensible decision that we took, I think, with the support of this Council in the middle of 1995 to increase the numbers coming here legally.
On the second question, we do recognize the additional educational demands and we do recognize that we can only meet those demands by the allocation of additional resources, and that is something which the Financial Secretary and the Secretary for Education and Manpower are well aware of.
畊琖皇某
MR MARTIN LEE: Mr Governor, I expect a very short answer from you to my long leading question.
GOVERNOR: That always sounds rather dangerous! (Laughter)
MR MARTIN LEE: The Foreign Secretary has recently called for the Chinese Ambassador to the United Kingdom and raised with him recent remarks by the Chinese Foreign Minister QIAN Qichen in relation to certain human rights, or the press freedom in particular, in relation to Hong Kong, and since then I understand that China of course did not give a satisfactory answer or assurance.
And also in relation to the vexed question of whether or not the setting up of the Provisional Legislature would constitute a breach of the Joint Declaration, again, the Foreign Secretary recently in Hong Kong said although it is still on the table, that is, his suggestion that China should submit to the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on this question, he could take it no further.
Now, in relation to both matters, are you going to press the British Government to refer both questions to the Security Council of the United Nations in order that it would make the request to the ICJ for an advisory opinion?
GOVERNOR: I noted that the Honourable gentleman had made this suggestion the other day and I do not think I give away any secrets in saying that I think it was part of the conversation which the Honourable gentleman had with the Foreign Secretary in London. But I am not quite sure that I understand what the purpose or value of that particular proposal would be.
Let me explain myself. The Security Council of the United Nations customarily deals with issues which threaten international peace and security. Now, worrying and damaging to Hong Kong as both the Provisional Legislature is, worrying and damaging to Hong Kong as the undermining of civil liberties in Hong Kong is, of concern as those matters are to the international community which is going to look at the way China is going to handle Hong Kong as a sort of test of how China is going to behave more broadly in the next few years, I think there would be members of the Security Council who would raise questions about whether the issues which the Honourable gentleman and I both feel very strongly about actually represented the same sort of threat to international peace and security as was represented at present by, for example, the crisis in Rwanda or Zaire which are taking up so much time at the United Nations.
It has been the British Government's policy one which I strongly support to ensure that there is as much international support for Hong Kong and Hong Kong's freedoms as possible. And I think that that obliges us to look at ways of encouraging support which would be regarded by others as sensible, rather than ways which would not be regarded as sensible. But I will certainly consider the Honourable gentleman's proposal and talk to him further about it if he would like.
Can I add, however, just one point? I do think that everybody in Hong Kong recognizes the degree of concern felt outside as well as inside our community by those proposals on the Bill of Rights and associated legislation which, in the words of the leaders of our legal profession, threaten to undermine the rule of law. And there is just one point, one plea that I want to make. Hong Kong is a very successful society, a society with a successful government, with successful institutions, with successful defences of its way of life. It is, to borrow an analogy, a Rolls Royce of a society. And what people outside, I think, find so difficult to understand is why, instead of just driving the vehicle away, Chinese officials and the Chief Executive (Designate) and his colleagues seem to want to examine the engine, tinker with the tyres, rather than just turn on the ignition and drive the Rolls Royce as successfully in the future as it has been driven in the past. I think that causes genuine incomprehension elsewhere as well as genuine concern.
MR MARTIN LEE: Mr Governor, maybe they want to make sure there is no bomb planted in this Rolls Royce! But my supplementary is this, and here is another attempt on my part to get a short answer from you, Mr Governor. Would it not be wonderful if, as a result of the advisory opinion given by the ICJ on both of the matters I mentioned earlier at the request of the Security Council, China would then be persuaded to change her mind and not persist in mucking about with the Rolls Royce, as you put it, or by not pursuing its plans to change laws through the appointed Provisional Legislature?
GOVERNOR: I must not pursue the Rolls Royce analogy any further. I do not think the manufacturers would necessarily care for it. I think it may be the case that and this is to risk abusing metaphor what makes Hong Kong motor forward so successfully, that is a combination of economic and political freedom, worries some Chinese officials, though worries them wholly unnecessarily.
On the ICJ, yes, it would be a very satisfactory outcome if the Chinese would accept the invitation which is still on the table to go to the ICJ for arbitration and would then accept what the ICJ had to say. There are not actually all that many members of the Security Council which do accept the binding arbitration of the ICJ. I think I am right in saying that the United Kingdom is the only permanent member of the Security Council which does so. I think I am right in saying that though I am happy to be corrected.
It is worth adding that elsewhere, where we think there is a clear obligation on China to follow procedures under the auspices of the United Nations, it is arguing at present that it does not see the need to do so. I am referring, of course, to the reporting obligations under the International Covenants on Civil and Political Rights and on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. So, I agree with the Honourable gentleman about the desirability of the outcome he has mentioned. I am not sure that his proposal about the Security Council would be the right one. I am sure that it should remain a priority for the United Kingdom in the conduct of its foreign affairs to ensure that there is the maximum international support for the survival of freedom and the rule of law in Hong Kong.
畊某
某拜畊羆服ネ氮糂ホ某借高弧現┎猔跌翠猭ㄒ琌才翠舦猭兵ㄒの瓣悔そ獺羆服ネョ笵и程闽猔琌セō舦и患ユㄢ兵╬兵ㄒ兵琌璹戮穦兵ㄒ╬兵ㄒ辨ㄏ翠Τ舦舱麓阁︽穨穦羛穦の瓣悔穦礚斗羆服ネу硂翠薄猵才竒蕾穦ゅて舦瓣悔そㄏ翠穦猍跌綝猍跌莉確戮硂才竒蕾穦ゅて舦瓣悔そいΤ闽挡︑パ舦场だよи矗ユ兵Τ闽栋砰酵舦╬兵ㄒㄏ翠薄猵才瓣悔骋そ材98腹
и矗ユ╬兵ㄒ常琌辨翠薄猵才瓣悔そ琌翠現┎ミ初玱琌は癸и╬兵ㄒ硂蛤羆服ネ┮弧Τㄇベ翠現┎琌ぃ稱翠ㄉ瓣悔そ┮结ぉ舦
GOVERNOR: Let me respond directly. The fact is that we do not agree with the Honourable gentleman that the present state of the law which he wishes to change contravenes our obligations in the Bill of Rights and in the International Covenant. We disagree on that point. I do not think we disagree about the importance of applying the International Covenant to Hong Kong.
Where we also disagree is in the approach which the Honourable gentleman has taken to, not in every case but in this case, labour legislation. The Honourable gentleman knows that he has been a distinguished part of the process, that we have tended to legislate in the labour sphere on the basis of a consensus reached in the Labour Advisory Board (LAB). I think what that has meant in Hong Kong is that there has been far less scrapping between employers and employees over legislation, far less here than exists in some other communities we are seeing in this region at the moment. Indeed, the Honourable gentleman, I think, has had first-hand experience of what is happening in this region at the moment where there is not a consensus of labour legislation.
So, I would prefer to proceed on that basis, though I understand that the three issues which the Honourable gentleman is talking about two, I think, in one bill and the other, in another are matters about which he and his trade union colleagues and his own trade union have felt strongly about for many years and have argued about both in Hong Kong and internationally for many years, and I am sure he will continue to do so. The Honourable gentleman may well be able to get a consensus in the LAB on those matters, though I would not advise him to hold his breath.
某拜畊羆服ネ⊿Τ筁竒蕾穦ゅて舦瓣悔そи辨灿弄拜肈ぃ琌-
莱︙龟琁そτ琌-
笻はそи戳辨灿綷そ眖êà浪跌и┮矗╬兵ㄒ秆иㄤ龟琌腊翠才瓣悔そ硂獶闽秆睦拜肈τ琌陪笻は拜肈そ睲贰穦Τ羛舱麓舦Τ瓣悔挡︑パ舦и辨羆服ネ灿綷êㄢ兵そ
GOVERNOR: I can only repeat what I have said: that we do not wholly agree with the Honourable gentleman about our own law being out of line with the International Covenants and the Bill of Rights. The Honourable gentleman will know that one reason why we have carried out this very comprehensive review of laws, which I think has led so far to about 38 different parts of ordinances being changed, maybe slightly more than that now, is that we did not want to be taken to court over existing laws which it could be argued were out of line with our international obligations as applied to Hong Kong law through the Bill of Rights. I think the fact that we have not been subjected to a legal challenge on that particular point may speak volumes, but I am not encouraging the Honourable gentleman to take legal advice.
畊独岸藉某
独岸藉某拜畊琎ぱぱ瞅Ω祇ネぃ砰ㄆン琌ぇい材ΩさΩ紇臫碭8丁厩常紇臫и辨羆服ネ靡龟琎ぱ琌Τ現┎场珹璣瓁┪胓毙竝纯獵癡絤初秈︽妒瞈紆簍策現┎穦蹦或惫琁тΘの︙ňゎ摸薄猵Ω瞷
GOVERNOR: Well, now that I have had notice of that question, which I suppose imaginatively one could relate to housing, the welfare of the elderly and human rights in one way or another, I will seek to reply to it in appropriate detail. I very much doubt whether the British Garrison were firing tear gas yesterday because they did have the Secretary of State for Defence with them!
独岸藉某拜畊硂ンㄆ讽礛蛤┬Τ闽俱跋┮Τ﹡チ常紇臫渤
畊摸薄猵纯翠跋瞷ぷぱ瞅Ω计程繵盞┕常琩ぃи某羆服ネ璶―吏挂玂臔竝Θミ疭盡砫舱の瞏╯Τ闽拜肈ぃノ–Ωㄆ常琩ぃ
GOVERNOR: It is a serious issue. I can assure the Honourable gentleman that we will give it serious attention. I understand why he raises it in that imaginative, if tangential, way. I think that many parents will have been particularly concerned because of the effect on schoolchildren in the area, and we will try to give the Honourable gentleman who represents the interests of people in the community, in this case so successfully, and we will try to give him a full and early answer.
I doubt whether it needs the establishment of a special committee. What it does require is an urgent and comprehensive answer to his question.
畊ヴ到圭某
ヴ到圭某拜畊и稱羆服ネиΤだㄠ碞ρ侯穿拜肈Ы患ユ獺ン羆服ネ笷玡10だ牧и玡芔纯淋叫癩現钡獺玱綝┶荡癩現碞癩現箇衡и-
虏厨の癚阶ごゼ秨﹍璶るい︓るい硂俱俱るず秈︽癚阶讽箇璸羬ミ穦穦Θ倔ブ瓜彻ぇ悔и-
琌璶Θ倔ブ瓜彻ぃ羆服ネΤ或у蝶
GOVERNOR: I am not quite sure that I wholly follow the Honourable gentleman's question, but let me seek to respond to each of the parts that I did understand. First of all, I was grateful for the Honourable gentleman's attendance in the welcoming party down below. I think he will understand that the Financial Secretary, while the most obliging of men, would not wish, even for the Honourable gentleman, to play the role of Postman Pat.
My honourable friend, the Financial Secretary, had the great benefit of substantial consultations with Members of the Legislative Council earlier in the year about his budget and spending priorities. I think he is well aware of the concerns of Honourable Members, just as he is well aware of the concerns in the financial markets and the concerns in the broader community that we should continue to enjoy a reputation for care in our public spending.
Can I add two points? First of all, the Budget this year, as the whole Council knows, as the whole community knows, is a curious one. It is, if you like, an one-off. The Budget takes place in a year in which sovereignty changes after three months, just over three months. Now, that has inevitably meant that our procedures have been different this year. Though Chinese officials have said on a number of occasions, and I hope on this occasion that they mean what they say, that this is an one-off, that they would not seek to be involved in Hong Kong's budgetary procedures in this way again. But it does cause some problems. The Honourable gentleman will know that Mr QIAN Qichen, among others, has made it clear that there is only one Legislative Council before 1 July and I am sitting in it. And the Legislative Council has the authority to vote the Budget, and, I hope, will do so with enthusiasm.
The other point that I would like to make is this. Hong Kong is in an extremely strong and healthy position economically and fiscally. Where other communities very often fight over deficits, we find ourselves sometimes, it appears, embarrassed by our surpluses. But because you have got a surplus as a government, as a community, and if you have a surplus as a family, it does not mean that the sensible thing to do is to spend it all. I think that whatever the size of our surplus may be, and the Honourable gentleman will know that when you add the Land Fund to our aggregate surplus we are extremely well off, whatever the size of those figures, I do not think that anything would justify breaking the link that we have welded over the years between the growth in our overall economy and the growth in public spending.
One of the reasons why we have got so much to spend today on areas like health and welfare and education is precisely because we have been sensible about relating spending to the growth in the economy in the past. So, I hope the community and this Council will continue to be mature about the responsibilities of handling a surplus sensibly. It is, on the whole, a rather nicer problem to have to face than dealing with deficits.
畊ッ笷某
ッ笷某拜羆服ネ程厨彻弧辨赋地ネ琌︗チ種烩砈и辨秆∕カチ拜肈琌︗チ種烩砈沮и┮参璸︑ヴ︓さΤㄢ拜肈常琌カチ程闽みチ種秸琩い硄盽常材の材︗碞琌翠玡硚㎝現獀拜肈碞琌┬拜肈硂┬拜肈烩иぃ羆服ネ暗冠穦冠ǎ┬拜肈竒ぃ琌程璶拜肈τ琌竒︓材材︗边秨み皚
и-
镑そ秨穦某高拜Τ闽┬拜肈诀穦ぃ穦び计る竒⊿Τ诀穦拜叫拜羆服ネ竒筁硂5谋眔翠┬拜肈セ︙硂ぃ琌螟秆∕拜肈琌и-
鸟5ぃǎヴ︙榔┬拜肈祏戳ずゼㄓ5┪10ぃΘ–Ωチ種秸琩い翠カチ粄琌程璶拜肈Τ稱筁硂ンㄆ㎡
GOVERNOR: First of all, I very much agree with what the Honourable gentleman said about the priority which the public give to housing, and I must say that it is not only in this community. When I was myself a Member of Parliament, I think the issue that more than any other dominated my post bag as an MP was housing. And it is understandable. It is related to people's sense of their own family security. It is related very much to people's financial position. It is related to their concerns about bringing up their children. It is very often related to their health as well. And not surprisingly here in Hong Kong, because of increasing immigration still, because of the increase in household formation, because of the very substantial size still of the queue of people on the Waiting List for housing, housing is a dominant feature.
I do not want I have got them all here but I will recognize the seriousness of the Honourable gentleman's question I do not want to go through all the figures of what we have done and what we have achieved in the last five years because I want to address a question which I will not be around to help solve. I think there are two real issues at the heart of our housing problems. The first is that despite the increase in the income in people's pockets, despite the effect that economic growth has had on things like median household incomes, there are still too many people who find it difficult to do what they want to do, that is, to become a home owner. And if you look at World Bank comparisons in Hong Kong, there should be far more people able to do that given our median household incomes.
Secondly, despite the fact that we put a huge amount of effort and a huge amount of resources into the provision of public housing, we still do not give enough assistance to those in the greatest housing need. And there is very little choice at all in our housing provision, particularly for the needy and the disadvantaged.
What on the whole happens? What on the whole happens at the moment is that after five, six, seven years on the Waiting List, a family gets a Housing Authority flat and they are then in it for life, and sometimes their family are in it after. They will pay in that housing accommodation flat about a third as a proportion of their household income that they were paying in private sector, probably far worse accommodation. If they are lucky, they may be able to get into the Home Ownership Scheme, but nine out of every 10 who apply for that scheme are not lucky.
I repeat, we put a huge amount of effort, of money, of energy into trying to cope with the problem, but we have still got probably 80 000 people who are I know the Waiting List is bigger than that actually qualified to get public housing and are having to wait for too long. That is why I think the issues that are raised in the Long Term Housing Review are serious ones which the community has to address. We have got to try to ensure that public housing goes to those who need it most. We have got to ensure that there is more flexibility in our housing provision, and we have got to ensure that it becomes easier for people to become home owners than it is today.
In trying to achieve that, we do not give up what we have got to do for those who are still in real need. I was standing on a rooftop in Sham Shui Po the other day looking at some of the awful housing that people still have in what is one of the most prosperous communities in the world. It is a challenge to us administratively and a challenge to our social consciences as well. These are big problems. I do not think we can go on trying to tackle them in the way that we have been using for the last 10 or 20 years.
Finally I would commend to the whole Legislative Council a speech made on this subject about a fortnight ago by the Director of Housing in which he set out all these issues, I thought, with considerable clarity and with considerable verve.
ッ笷某拜畊羆服ネ矗種ǎぃ筁и辨痙種ㄢ翴材翠┮Τカチ疭琌い玻顶常笵ē碞琌и-
–常琌玻坝ゴ硂琌翠璶瞷龟ㄤ龟羆服ネ眖ㄓ常ぃ穦酵阶翠俱玻カ笵祇甶㎝玻坝痲籔現┎闽玒材и猋洁朝び诀初み祘服旧〆穦5丁碞ЧΘ硂或胑璸购硂龟だ弘ぃ筁砍加よ現┎场砏购吏玂ユ硄у㎝糵у单祘玱璶ノ14丁︙璶14㎡羆服ネ︽現琌谋眔ЧΘ硂ㄇ祘┮丁Чぃ钡㎡︙璶硂或丁㎡5竒ЧΘ砍诀初砍┬︙ぃきせずЧΘ㎡
GOVERNOR: I cannot speak for the Chief Secretary, but I suspect that she and I would have a good deal of sympathy with the Honourable gentleman's question, and I think that we do have to speed up our procedures very considerably. The Honourable gentleman referred to the position of real estate developers. It is interesting, and I had better be careful with what I say. I do not think that in late February 1997 it is entirely sensible for me to open up yet another front. It is interesting that in a community which is recognized internationally for its ability to deliver spectacularly good value for money in spectacularly short periods, we do not have that reputation in housing. I have been very careful in the way that I have said that, but, for example, setting aside the Government or Government's subsidized schemes, you do not see quite as much competition at the lower, cheaper end of the market as you see in comparably well-off communities. And I think that that is a subject which I know everybody else talks about a great deal though it is perhaps dangerous for the Governor to flirt with it. Perhaps the Honourable Member would like to come in?
PRESIDENT: This is the Governor's Question Time!
畊︙玊く某
︙玊く某拜畊羆服ネ碞琖皇某借高┮倒ぉ氮и稰ア辨弧瞷盢羬ミ穦猭┦拜肈矗ユ羛瓣瓣悔猭畑钩伐⊿Τ或龟悔基︓Τ祘螟ㄤ龟羆服ネ籔︓闽玒ê或盞ち穦フ-
稱猭狦Τê或螟τ癸硂妓暗基Τ借好杠︙璶硂妓矗ㄓ㎡硂妓暗琌琌贺墩τ⊿Τ港種碻硂よΑ秆∕拜肈㎡
и畊硂穦某玡纯╯ㄇΤ闽瓣悔猭戈и盿Τ闽膟ㄓ紇戈祔穦ユ倒羆服ネ狦さ边ゼΘ痸ㄓ戈Τ虏虫琌酵阶瓣悔猭畑祘ぃ狡馒
ㄤ龟狦禗砠祘ㄓ弧璣瓣現┎材˙礛い瓣現┎莱┪硓筁羛瓣穦┪瞶穦礚斗い瓣種钡瓣悔猭畑―種ǎ┮琌Τㄢ硚畖羆珹ㄓ弧璶璣瓣現┎材˙碞单い瓣現┎莱и-
礚斗安﹚い瓣現┎﹚穦蹦к┶篈いよ稱瓣悔猭畑ㄓ靡羬ミ穦琌猭ゼ┪いよ稱瓣悔猭畑ㄓは璣瓣現┎笻は羛羘┪北羆服ネ現эよ瘆胊羛羘ゼи-
ぃ璶安﹚い瓣現┎﹚ぃ穦莱и辨羆服ネ矗ㄑ耕絋龟氮弧穦玃ㄏ璣瓣現┎蹦龟悔︽笆材˙ㄏ硂ンㄆ镑硓筁そキ猭祘ㄓ秆∕
GOVERNOR: I am not, as I have had to point out to the Council before, a lawyer, though I have become more knowledgeable about legal matters since I have been Governor of Hong Kong, and I am sure that after speed-reading the document which is at present in the President's hands I will be even ......
PRESIDENT: Was that meant for me or meant for you?
GOVERNOR: ...... better informed. It is called "Stark on International Law". I have in my hands the Eighth Edition and I am looking forward to reading it later on this afternoon.
To be serious, and I think Mr Stark or Professor Stark or Lord Justice Stark, or whoever he is, will agree with me, the simple position is that where two countries agree to take a dispute to the ICJ, the ICJ will accept the case from them. If one of the parties to the dispute does not accept that and resists going with the other party to the ICJ, then the party which is concerned has to get the agreement of the General Assembly of the United Nations to the ICJ's role in the case. Now, there may be an argument for doing that, but I would just like to point out to the Honourable gentleman that the General Assembly of the United Nations does not meet until next autumn and next autumn is after 1 July, by which time, I suppose, it is possible that the business in Shenzhen will have moved south, much to the discredit of those involved and much to the disadvantage of Hong Kong.
What I want to assure the Honourable gentleman of is this, that this issue will remain an important issue for the United Kingdom Government. It is not something about which the British Government has "agreed to disagree", to borrow a phrase. We have to take our responsibilities under the Joint Declaration seriously and intend to continue to do so. That applies to human rights and human rights legislation, and it also applies to the question of democratic development.
I can assure the Honourable gentleman of one other thing. We are told that an early priority in the months after 1 July will be to design election arrangements for the elected legislature after the hand-over. I think the United Kingdom, like other countries around the world, will be looking at those arrangements with great interest. We will be interested if those arrangements prove to be fairer than the present ones. We will be interested if those arrangements increase the suffrage in Hong Kong. We will be interested if those arrangements have the principal purpose of reducing those who can get elected on a democratic platform. Those are all issues which are going to be of considerable concern to the United Kingdom, to the United States as the United States has made clear, and to others. And I think what we have to do is to maximize interest in those issues and concern about those issues by behaving in the way which is most likely to build an international consensus rather than in the way which may narrow international support for decency, good sense and the rule of law in Hong Kong.
︙玊く某拜畊и稱祏莱羆服ネ┮矗の拜肈и-
–某讽礛常闽みτ穦膥尿暗и-
莱暗ㄆㄓ絋玂盢ㄓΤそキ匡庢程ㄏи-
翠闽み碞琌羛羘莱続ノ翠50瞷и-
玱Τ笻は羛羘沮羛羘τ﹚翠舦猭兵ㄒ瞷倒玠畓场だ舦硂ㄇ常琌惠璶秆∕ㄆи-
ぃГ跌ぃ瞶埃羆服ネ┮弧瓣悔猭畑硂硚畖硂セい更Τ祘и谋眔璣瓣現┎莱荷砫ヴ材˙
舦〆穦る盢穦庢︽穦и辨羆服ネ盢獺盿倒璣瓣盢翠舦猭兵ㄒ﹚琌才羛羘Τ笻は膀セ猭单拜肈盿羛瓣舦〆穦癚阶ま癬-
闽猔и獺い瓣現┎﹚穦闽猔舦〆穦縒ミ㎝盡穨種ǎ
畊讽"祏"蛤秈借高渤
GOVERNOR: Let me follow what the Honourable gentleman has said. I would guess that the Honourable gentleman, like me, has yet to hear from anyone who is supporting what he described as the emasculation of our civil liberties legislation, has yet to hear a single rational description of in what way our civil liberties legislation breaches the Basic Law. All that we hear is that the bills are going to be changed because of Article 160 in the Basic Law, which is the article which says that bills can be changed if they are not in line with the Basic Law. I mean, it is a completely circular argument. It is like a cat chasing its own tail. I think that was the point made by the Chairman of the Bar Association.
Why is it, why is it that these laws are going to be changed? Not a single argument about them being in contravention of the Basic Law, but a lot of implied concern that somehow they will bring about social chaos and instability in Hong Kong. We have had these bills and where is the social chaos? I looked up before today the figures for marches and demonstrations in Hong Kong, and it is perfectly true that as Hong Kong has become a more open, more plural society, as it has developed a civic consciousness, so there have been more marches and demonstrations. The figures increased very substantially over the last decade. At the same time, our economy has doubled in size and crime has fallen. So, nobody can say that allowing people to demonstrate, allowing people to let off steam is bad for our economy or that it is bad for social order. The fact of the matter is that if you try to stop people using safety valves, the steam will come out in other ways, in ways which do lead to social disharmony.
The United Kingdom has made it clear that the report that will go to Parliament every six months on the implementation of the Joint Declaration will be made available to the treaty-watching bodies in Geneva, so that even if there is not proper reporting from Hong Kong, at least there is some focus for Geneva's consideration of what is actually happening in this territory.
ADJOURNMENT AND NEXT SITTING
ヰ穦のΩ穦某
畊酚穦某盽砏セ畊瞷ガセЫヰ穦ガセЫるきら琍戳と230だ尿穦
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-three minutes to Four o'clock.
穦某笶と337だヰ穦
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL - 27 February 1997
146
ミ猭Ы るら
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL - 27 February 1997
119
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