OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
ミ猭Ы穦某筁祘タΑ魁
Thursday, 21 November 1996
せるら琍戳
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
と230だ穦某秨﹍
MEMBERS PRESENT
畊某
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
畊独Щ祇某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
㏄辩睶┥某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
琖皇某Q.C., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D. (CANTAB), J.P.
瓣腳某O.B.E., LL.D. (CANTAB), J.P.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
畕地某
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
︙┯ぱ某O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE EDWARD LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P.
辩醇翬某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
朝岸穨某
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
眎ゅ某
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
糕蚌┚某
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
毒浪膀某
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
︙庇古某
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
ッ笷某
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, O.B.E., J.P.
產不某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
璣某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
襖略ビ某
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., F.Eng., J.P.
独篿某M.B.E., F.Eng., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
法此某
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
法У地某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
独岸藉某
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
バ玊某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
某
THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN
朝篴篱某
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW CHENG KAR-FOO
綠產碔某
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG
眎簙┚某
THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM
腑瓣辆某
THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK
糂ホ某
THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.
糂簙煌某J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK
霉不瓣某
THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG
霉璓某
THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING
币某
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG
辩模┚某
THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE
郭Θ某
THE HONOURABLE MARGARET NG
艷祸某
THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN
肅繟某
THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI
虫ヲ昂某
THE HONOURABLE TSANG KIN-SHING
纯胺Θ某
DR THE HONOURABLE JOHN TSE WING-LING
谅ッ闹某
THE HONOURABLE MRS ELIZABETH WONG CHIEN CHI-LIEN, C.B.E., I.S.O., J.P.
独窥ㄤ军某C.B.E., I.S.O., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAWRENCE YUM SIN-LING
ヴ到圭某
MEMBERS ABSENT
畊某
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
腜某C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
ぶ城某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
糂祇某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
甃ㄎ瞶某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
糂胺祸某O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA, M.B.E.
独綺笽某M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
糂紌某
THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
地某
DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
独﹜グ某
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
嘲糠某
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM
朝挪狶某
THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN
朝胞糭某
THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN
綠癡某
THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG
綠模磁某
DR THE HONOURABLE ANTHONY CHEUNG BING-LEUNG
眎▆某
THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P.
讲蚌某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN
Χギ棚某
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN
︙玊く某
THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING
霉睲某
THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN
馋莱某
PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING
畊そ戮
THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, C.B.E., J.P.
CHIEF SECRETARY
︽現Ы某ガ現朝よネC.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, O.B.E., J.P.
FINANCIAL SECRETARY
︽現Ы某癩現纯疆舦ネO.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
ATTORNEY GENERAL
︽現Ы某現皑碔到ネC.M.G., J.P.
MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
現叭甝喘ネC.B.E., J.P.
MR NICHOLAS NG WING-FUI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS
舅ㄆ叭篴ネJ.P.
MR DOMINIC WONG SHING-WAH, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING
┬独琍地ネO.B.E., J.P.
MR RAFAEL HUI SI-YAN, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES
癩竒ㄆ叭砛くネJ.P.
MR JOSEPH WONG WING-PING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER
毙▅参膚ッキネJ.P.
MR PETER LAI HING-LING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
玂兢紋圭ネJ.P.
MR BOWEN LEUNG PO-WING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
砏购吏挂現辩腳篴ネJ.P.
MR LAM WOON-KWONG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE
そ叭ㄆ叭狶坟ネJ.P.
MR KWONG HON-SANG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR WORKS
叭馣簙ネネJ.P.
MR TAM WING-PONG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY
坝糜篴üネJ.P.
CLERK IN ATTENDANCE
畊
MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, SECRETARY GENERAL
毒更不ネ
PURSUANT TO STANDING ORDER 4AA, HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR, THE RIGHT HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER FRANCIS PATTEN, ATTENDED TO ADDRESS THE COUNCIL AND TO RECEIVE QUESTIONS.
羆服碸﹚眃ネㄌ沮穦某盽砏材4AA兵砏﹚畊穦某セЫ璓勉钡借高
畊叫︗某膥尿ミ单羆服秈穦初
翠羆服
畊羆服盢穦碞琎ぱ祇ネ╝の砐稼ぇ︽虏祏羘碞ㄤ羘の肈ヘ羛瓣患ユ舦厨氮某ぇ借高︗某矗借高莉氮滦矗兜虏祏ぇ蛤秈借高璶―哪赣氮滦ぃぇ矪叫︗某庢もボ種產不某
產不某羆服ネ临ゼ祇羘琌莱琵弧
畊癸ぃ癬瞷パ羆服虏祏羘
GOVERNOR: Mr President, I would like, as you indicated, to begin this afternoon by making a statement and taking your questions on the appalling fire that occurred in Jordan yesterday evening. If there is time and if Honourable Members wish, we can go on later to discuss my recent visit to Europe to lobby for visa-free access, and we can discuss as well the question of human rights reporting. But it is obviously the tragedy which took place in Hong Kong last night which is on all our minds today.
Let me tell the Council what we understand to be the latest position. I am sure that the Council will understand that it is difficult at present to be precise about the figures. We are still trying to identify bodies and relate those who were reported missing to the bodies that can be identified. The position as I left to come to the Legislative Council this afternoon was that 37 people have been confirmed killed. There may be two other confirmed fatalities. 78 people have been injured. 39 people have been reported missing, but this number may include some of those whom we already know have been killed but whose bodies have not yet been identified.
As Honourable Members will understand, there are considerable difficulties in identifying the bodies that have been found, many of which have been very badly burned. The Fire Services Department, assisted by forensic experts from the police, are in the process of combing the entire building. It will not be until this lengthy process is completed then we will be in a position to issue final casualty figures.
This is plainly a terrible tragedy...... This is plainly a terrible tragedy. I would like to extend, on behalf of the community, our deep sympathy to the families of all those who have lost their loved ones. Let me pay tribute to Senior Fireman LIU Chi-hung who lost his life battling courageously to save the lives of others. Let me pay tribute also to the great bravery and skill of our emergency services in tackling this disaster. The Fire Services, the police, the Ambulance Service, the Government Flying Service, the Auxiliary Medical Services, the Hospital Authority and the St John Ambulance Association and Brigade worked tirelessly to fight the fire and rescue the victims. Their efforts are still continuing. I wish to pay a special tribute to the Fire Services officers who have behaved with the bravery and dedication which we know and expect from them.
I visited the scene of the fire yesterday evening as well as the hospitals treating the injured, and the Chief Secretary has been there this morning. We saw for ourselves the scale of the disaster and the difficulties facing the emergency services. Our task now is to do everything we can to assist the victims of this fire and to help the families of those who have lost their lives. I have instructed that no effort should be spared to make sure this happens. A press conference will be held at 4.00 pm this afternoon by the Director of Fire Services, the Director of Home Affairs, the Director of Social Welfare and a representative of the Hospital Authority to provide as much information as possible on the fire and what we are doing in its aftermath.
We must also make absolutely sure that we all learn lessons from this tragedy and do everything we can to minimize the risk of it ever happening again in our crowded, congested city. The Director of Fire Services will conduct an immediate investigation into the fire. This investigation will try to establish the cause of the fire and the reasons why so many people died and were injured. Its preliminary findings will be available within two weeks and we will make public everything that we are legally able to make public at that stage. In the light of these findings, I will decide whether to establish a full commission of inquiry chaired by a judge.
Obviously, what happened last night underlines the importance of one thing, the importance of this Council passing as rapidly as possible the legislation which we have put to it and which it has quite properly been considering thoroughly to tighten up fire safety regulations. The Fire Safety (Commercial Premises) Bill was put to this Council on 29 May this year. When this legislation is in place, it will allow our Fire Services to take action to improve fire safety in places like Garley Building. Those improvements will help to retard the rapid spread of fire on the lower floors of a building like the one in this incident. The bill also contains measures to improve emergency escapes and means of access for fire-fighting and rescue. These will allow the Fire Services speedier access to such buildings.
I am not I want to make it absolutely clear criticizing this Council for examining the bill in detail. It is an important bill. But let us now act as quickly as possible to put this legislation onto the statute book so that we can start to implement it on the ground. We will obviously, in the light of this incident and the investigation into it, urgently wish to see whether a further bill is required, for example, to extend the scope of the new legislation specifically into office premises.
Before I take your questions, let me make a final plea. I do hope that in the coming days, all of us will act with the greatest possible sensitivity towards the injured and towards the families of those who have been injured or killed. They have quite enough to deal with already without undue and unwanted intrusions into their grief.
Hong Kong is a great city. It has achieved some of the greatest economic successes known to any city over the last half century, but our life is still marred by too many preventable tragedies. Trying to put in place the sort of regulations which can and do save lives is not a hindrance to Hong Kong's competitiveness, not an intolerable addition to the costs of business in Hong Kong, not an unnecessary intrusion or interference by the Government. It is merely a recognition of what is required in any prosperous and civilized society to give its citizens the protection in their daily lives which they deserve and which they have a right to expect.
畊叫︗某庢もボ種產不某
產不某拜羆服ネи稱セЫ┮Τㄆ﹚穦㎝и妓や硂初磀粿┦のň牡叭㎝洛臔璣玦㎝荷砫︽璓穛癸端㎝-
產妮璓程闽ち饥拜荷某戮砫иご礛璶矗ㄇ螟币睛借高辨羆服ネ氮и稱矗兜虏虫借高叫拜羆服ネ琎边笷╝初Τ把服旧毕㎡
GOVERNOR: No, certainly not. The job is one for the operational commander on the spot. When I visited the scene of the fire, it, I think, appeared to those who had been fighting it that all those who were alive had been got out of the building. When I arrived, the fire was still being fought but I think I am right in saying that there was no indication of any people who were still alive who needed to be rescued. But I am bound to tell the Honourable gentleman that I was impressed as ever by the quiet competence and bravery of those who briefed me about what has happened and who told me what they thought the position was.
產不某拜畊癸羆服ネ╝初贝拜Τ闽毕臔躬纘и琌Ч瞶秆ぃ筁さぱи钮ㄇカチ種ǎ弧琎边羆服ネの╝初贝辨ォ琌端计程琿丁ぃ硂琌痷絋и璶―羆服ネ癸硂ㄆ过┏秸琩琌妮龟ら摸薄猵Τ快猭絋玂у璝璶╝初贝砐ぃ穦毕臔㎝洛臔璶腊êㄇ瞶秆薄猵τ癸だみ叫拜Τ快猭ㄇ耕睲贰玥㎝ボ㎡
GOVERNOR: I think that the Honourable gentleman needs to be careful with this line of questioning. Let me tell him what my own position was and remains. I was kept informed during the evening of the tragedy and, shortly after having gone out to dinner, was telephoned with the news of the escalation in the number of those who were apparently injured, was told that the fire itself was under control, that there were no other people waiting to be rescued in the building, and it was suggested that I should go to the hospital and perhaps the scene of the incident. Since I was told that the rescue of people inside the building was no longer at issue, I decided to go to the scene of the tragedy before going on to the hospital.
I would under no circumstances go to a tragedy or, for example, go to a stake-out by the police, if there was an operation being carried on at that time which could affect whether or not people's lives were saved. I think if there were any dignitaries who went, to borrow the Honourable gentleman's phrase, any dignitaries who went to the incident earlier, it would have been in the line of duty.
When I arrived at the scene, for example, the Secretary for Security quite properly was there since it was the men and women for whom he is responsible who were actually dealing with the incident. But he certainly would not, any more than I would, seek to intervene in operational matters. I think there were several visits later on by other people to the hospital and as the Honourable gentleman will know, the Chief Secretary herself visited it this morning. But I am not aware of any case of the operation being hindered by dignitaries at the scene of the accident before I was there. And I repeat what I said to the Honourable gentleman about the timing of my arrival.
畊襖略ビ某
襖略ビ某拜畊羆服琎ぱ㎝さぱ羘い常矗ミ猭Ыタ糵某ň坝穨矪┮兵ㄒ琌钡籔瞷癚阶硂﹙篏粿Τ闽ぃ筁ㄆ龟現┎硂兵兵ㄒず⊿Τ矗の坝穨加硂兵ㄒ疉の5摸﹚ノ硚矪┮現┎⊿Τ碞坝穨加矗硂よ猭ㄒ羆服硂妓弧穦倒そ渤岿粇獺現┎龟悔矗ユ某倒ミ猭Ы糵某ㄆ龟玱ぃ礛и辨羆服坚睲硂翴
GOVERNOR: Well, let me give that clarification and tell the Honourable gentleman why what I have said is not misleading the public. Why have we introduced the Bill? We introduced the Bill, as the Honourable gentleman will know, following the tragic fire in the bank at Shep Kip Mei in January 1994.
The legislation will cover premises where the fire safety measures no longer meet current standards. The investigation into that fire in 1994 showed that certain types of premises, including banks, off-course betting centres, jewellery and goldsmith shops, supermarkets, department stores and shopping arcades presented particular risks because of their size and the large numbers of people passing through. This legislation has been carefully developed to address precisely those risks.
The legislation covers commercial premises. The fire safety measures necessary for such places are not necessarily the same as those for, say, business or residential buildings, and we will review the need for new legislation to cover other types of premises in the light of the investigation report, as I said in my remarks. So, I do believe that since the bottom floors of the building in question are commercial premises, they would have fallen within the scope of the legislation.
襖略ビ某拜畊羆服坚睲現┎瞷矗5摸矪┮ぃ珹坝穨加и蛤秈借高琌羆服穦粄ぃノ单ê秸琩厨ㄆ龟現┎ㄓ常笵侣Α坝穨稨硂よ拜肈Гиō独篿某筁┕纯碞硂よ级ゅ笷種ǎ┮琌﹚璶单厨祇临璶竒筁猭﹛秸琩〆穦╯現┎穦σ納ы┪瞷秨﹍σ納硂よミ猭
GOVERNOR: Let me be extremely restrained in my reply. While we have been discussing this legislation, I am not aware that the Government has been pressed to get on with things more rapidly. I am sure, perfectly understandably, the pressures on the Government have been to make sure that we are not demanding too much of commercial premises in a short time. Perhaps what we need to do with issues like this is to strike a sensible balance. We want to put in place proper regulations and we want to do it as rapidly as possible. Of course, it is quite proper for this Council and others to be able to comment on the adequacy of the regulations we are seeking to put in place, but I do not think we should be in a position in which before tragedies happen we want too much discussion, and after tragedies happen we do not want any. What we have to do is to make sure that we put in place sensible arrangements which are properly considered and which can prevent tragedies like this happening.
畊艷祸某
MISS MARGARET NG: Mr President, I would respectfully join the Governor in his appeal to the community not to intrude into the grief of the families of these fire victims. However, I am also concerned that, because this is a commercial building and people caught in it are people working wage-earners, therefore these families may be in some immediate financial worries.
Has the Administration been doing anything to make discreet enquiries as to whether easy relief might be brought to the families of these victims? Thank you, Mr President.
GOVERNOR: Can I thank the Honourable lady for the first remark that she made, which I am sure the whole Council would endorse and which I hope will be taken account of by everyone in the community, by all sections of the community over the coming days and weeks. It is an important issue. I am not going to be any more specific than that, but I hope people will take what I have said and what the Honourable lady has said to heart.
Secondly, she is entirely right about the importance of not only counselling in providing psychological support, but also counselling in offering financial support if it is required. A package of assistance is available from emergency relief funds, including injury grant, disability grant, burial grant and death gratuity. We can also provide assistance to families in need with child care. So there is a range of financial support which is available, and I can assure the Honourable lady that we will be going into a little more detail about that in the press conference that will be held at 4.00 pm.
I think there is a real problem in any community when a tragedy like this happens and it is a problem which I have discussed today with the Chief Secretary and that is how you make sure that the relatives of those who may have been injured or killed, who may have a family member missing, are kept as informed as possible in circumstances where information is partial, is not complete and is changing all the time as you learn more about a tragedy which has taken place. It is very difficult to get it right, but we have to try even harder than we are at the moment.
畊辩醇翬某
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr Governor, we are in grief, just like you, about what happened in the Garley Building yesterday, and I am sure Members of this Council would join you and also be very appreciative of your concern for not only the victims but also the staff who have been working very hard to do their best. What we should really be looking for are lessons that can be learned so that hopefully such accidents or incidents will not happen again.
Now, Mr Governor, you mentioned that a bill which was introduced into this Council some time in May, if it has taken effect, may well have prevented to a certain extent such incidents as the one happened yesterday. I do hope that, Mr Governor, you are not implying that had this bill been passed by this Council earlier, this would not have happened. Because I am sure you would understand that there is a certain machinery in this Council for scrutinizing bills, and that every bill introduced to this Council is as important as any other one and that Members of this Council have been working very diligently to achieve that certain direction. And I have to say this simply because I do represent the House. Thank you.
GOVERNOR: Can I remind the Honourable gentleman of what I said, because I went out of my way to avoid, I hope, sounding as though I was putting any criticism on the Council for quite properly considering this measure thoroughly. I said the Fire Safety (Commercial Premises) Bill was put to this Council on 29 May this year. When this legislation is in place, it will allow our Fire Services to take action to improve fire safety, and so on, and I said that earlier that the Council had been quite properly considering the bill thoroughly.
Let me also remind the Honourable gentleman of what I said in response to his Honourable friend. I think we have to strike a nice balance between before something happens, thinking we have got all the time in the world, and after it happens, thinking we must rush at it. This is not a moment when any of us should be criticizing one another on these matters. We have got to work together to get a decent, properly considered set of regulations in place.
畊朝岸穨某
朝岸穨某拜羆服ネи稱畒︗某常闽み硂Ω╝薄癸ň矪㎝ㄤ現┎场璣玦瞷だ苂洁ぃ筁ㄆ︓蒥チ肚碈┪筿跌毕薄猵ぃ窽Τㄇ好拜и礚種篕┪借好ň矪讽矪瞶よ猭и癸翠矪瞶硂ㄇ祇ネ盞栋跋╝螟祸竟砞琁单よ琌ì镑Τ好拜иぃ琌借好琌谋眔Τ好拜и-
Τ怠玡单琿丁莉眔珸毕τΤぶ冻辫秈︽珸毕︽笆繷琿会丁ず⊿Τň筹糛硂妓倒稰谋琌╯澈и-
硂局Τ胑纗称現┎Τи-
ň钉ヮ矗ㄑì镑祸竟㎝砞琁ㄏㄤ盞栋跋㎝蔼毕穿よ甶秨珸毕碞硂ㄆン秈︽浪癚叫拜羆服ネ穦璶―浪癚硂拜肈絋玂ら祇ネ摸╝螟翠ň钉ヮΤì镑砞琁秈︽ゲ惠毕穿
GOVERNOR: The Honourable gentleman mentioned the scenes on television, and of course one reason why this tragedy will have made such an impact on so many people is that those graphic pictures that people saw on television of people waiting to be rescued, and of the brave operations of the Fire Services and others.
I think it is dangerous, and I am glad the Honourable Member avoided the trap, for any of us until there has been a full investigation to jump to conclusions about operational issues, about the availability of equipment, and so on. But let me make two points to the Honourable Member. The fire was reported, I am advised, at 4.48 pm and the Fire Services were at the scene within three minutes. They sent in all 86 appliances and 460 firemen to the scene. In addition, they provided 75 ambulances and 236 ambulancemen.
I asked the Director of Fire Services specifically this morning whether they had enough equipment, enough appliances on the spot, and he believed that they had had enough on the spot. But obviously, that is something which he will want to review and others will want to review when they look at the detail.
I can assure the Honourable gentleman that if it is clear from this enquiry that we need to spend more on equipment, on appliances, then we will have no hesitation in doing so, and I think I can speak with the authority of having the Financial Secretary next to me. You cannot cut costs or cut corners when you are faced with a tragedy like this.
Can I add something that I should have said when I was asked a question, quite properly, by the Chairman of the House Committee? The Chairman represents the Medical Functional Constituency and I saw many of his members some of whom I am sure voted for him, some of whom may not have voted for him working last night. I had seen similar scenes after the tragedy involving the children at Sha Tin a few months ago. I did not ah, the Honourable gentleman has left stay long enough to get in the way of those who were seeking to bandage the injured, to give them the initial cosmetic care they needed for burns or certainly to get in the way of those who were working very hard in the Intensive Care Unit. But every Honourable Member, the Honourable Member saw it for himself as well, every Honourable Member who had been in the Queen Elizabeth Hospital last night, and I am sure the same was true in Kwong Wah and elsewhere, would have been very impressed by the number of those working, by their dedication and hard work, by their energy and professionalism. We have in Hong Kong a medical service of which we can be very proud.
朝岸穨某拜畊谅谅羆服ネ氮滦現┎穦纔㎝疭σ納戈方よ狦痷Τ惠璶杠э到ň砞琁程沧浪癚挡狦惠琿丁ЧΘ狦ň矪碞砞琁よ浪癚耕ΝЧΘ杠現┎穦纔σ納硂よ拜肈τぃ琌单硂Ω╝螟俱砰浪癚挡狦㎡
GOVERNOR: Well, if it becomes apparent very quickly in the review that there is a real problem of equipment we will, of course, have to address that very rapidly. But I think what we first of all need to do is to get the report within the next fortnight. It may well be the case that, as happened with the Lan Kwai Fong tragedy at New Year 1992-93, we will feel and the community will feel that there should be a full commission of enquiry under a judge. But I thought it was right, first of all, to get the facts as quickly as possible, and if those facts suggest courses of action which we should take very rapidly, then we will not hesitate to do so.
畊㏄辩睶┥某
㏄辩睶┥某拜畊и辨羆服ネ笵矗のê兵ㄒ〆穦ΘиさΝ〆穦畊襖略ビ某の籔и-
癬Τ闽场㎝∕郸璓種и谋眔兵狡馒兵ㄒ硂或祏丁ず獽秆∕┮Τ龟悔拜肈產眔醚∕﹚и獺產常だ骸種и稱禗羆服ネぃ琌玡Τび癚阶ㄤ龟琌Τ続讽癚阶τ拜肈瞷眔蛾骸秆∕笵硂翴穦ゑ耕み
羆服ネ弧琎边笷╝瞷初Τ︗"operational commander""︽笆羆揣"叫拜琎边︽笆羆揣琌街и矗硂兜借高瞶パ琌┕璝祇ネ候ㄆ珿候ㄆ珿参膚いみ穦璽砫参膚┮Τ玡帹㎝穿毕╝场Τ碭场常琌籔毕╝Τ闽︑させる秨﹍硂候ㄆ珿参膚いみэ"候ㄆ珿菏诡のや穿いみ"叫拜羆服ネ琎边祇ネ磀粿硂┮孔参膚いみΤ祇揣ノ璝и稱笵俱毕╝︽笆い街琌羆揣иЧ礚種у蝶琎ぱ场璽砫-
荷暗ぃ筁初硂或腨╝螟い﹚璶Τ羆揣参膚よぃ叫拜琎ぱ琌街璽砫硂狦琎ぱ⊿Τ羆揣叫拜硂Ω浪癚い瞏σ納砞ミ羆揣戮ら窾ぃ┋惠璶ぃ场摸秸穦Τ羆揣璽砫参膚
GOVERNOR: Can I first of all say once again that I think the Honourable Member and I are at one in recognizing that important pieces of legislation cannot simply be ushered through the Legislative Council on the nod. They require thorough deliberation and discussion in the Council. As I said to the Honourable gentleman, I think we need to strike a sensible balance.
On the second point, perhaps I can let the Honourable lady know exactly how this emergency was handled in terms of departmental co-ordination in due course. It is obviously one of the issues that will come out of the investigation. We do regularly review our emergency arrangements and carry out tests of them from time to time. We did so only recently. So I think we are capable of handling emergencies pretty well, though we can always do better.
In this particular case, when I arrived on the scene, the Director of Fire Services and the Secretary for Security were both on the spot. There were senior police officers on the spot, and of course the District Officer. But the actual fire-fighting was under the command of one of the Director of Fire Services' senior deputies. I do not think there was a problem of co-ordination between the various emergency services, but I can let the Honourable lady have a detailed reply to that in due course. (Annex)
㏄辩睶┥某拜ㄤ龟┕讽硂ㄇ磀粿祇ネ產常笵Τ闽场﹚穦荷毕硂琌ゲ礛拜肈竒盽参膚よи辨硂Ω浪癚栋い╯硂拜肈︙皌瞷睼睹薄猵τ戈祇よ璓ㄏ產癸俱ンㄆみㄇи辨硂Ω浪癚穦盢疭╯硂拜肈┕產癸硂よ常Τ種ǎ
GOVERNOR: Those are important issues that we must look at. But can I just say one thing to the lady about information? I think one reason why awareness of the number of fatalities was so limited earlier in the evening was that nobody had provided anything like accurate estimates of those who were missing. It was only, I think, very late that the full figures for those who were missing were brought to our attention.
Another difficulty with accuracy of information is the one I mentioned in my statement, the problems of identification of very badly-burned bodies. But we must learn from our experiences, of course, in the hope that we do not need to deal with these things again. But in human society that, alas, is very rarely the case.
畊法此某
法此某拜畊碭︗ㄆ常矗Τ闽╝借高翠カチ闽猔硂ンㄆぃ筁и稱锣锣杠肈拜拜戳牡よ瞷и稱矗ㄢンㄆ材и稱拜羆服ネ琌璹現郸ら-
らセ烩ㄆ繻叫腀礚阶癘㎝叫腀砛20初硂琌程砏﹚叫拜硂穦Й锚癘蹦砐材ら玡穦甶いみΤ叫腀叫腀牡よ玱澈κ牡叭叫拜いよΤタΑ矗璶―秈︽硂妓ň称穦谋眔俱ンㄆい牡よは莱筁庇牡叭纯侥竤旧璓初ゑ耕睼睹
GOVERNOR: I would like to take those two points separately and dwell a little longer on the second of them, making as I do so one or two points which I hope the Council and some outside the Council will take to heart over the coming months which may be occasionally difficult.
The first question the Japanese Consulate. Police officers responsible for protecting the Consulate must decide how best to carry out their duties, having regard to the circumstances in the building, for example, what is happening there, the physical constraints imposed by the building and the mood of those who are seeking, for instance, to petition in the building. They cannot be entirely unmindful of what has happened in that building in the past.
I think, if I may say so, that if Members of this Council want this city to retain its international reputation, to retain its links with other communities overseas, then they should be aware of the importance of protecting the consular facilities of other communities here in Hong Kong. I do not wish to relate this comment to conduct by any Honourable Members or to any particular incident, but I do think that it is particularly important for those who make the laws to abide by the laws in a full-hearted spirit.
Now let me turn to the second of the Honourable gentleman's questions. The policing of every event, while I am Governor, will be entirely a matter for the Hong Kong Police, and it will be a matter for the judgment of the Commissioner of Police operating within the law, operating according to the Bill of Rights, exactly how any operations under his command are carried out.
I have not, am not today and will not give the Commissioner of Police any instructions about how to do his job. We have an outstanding police which is extremely well led, and as far as I am concerned, that is the end of the matter. I would not instruct the Commissioner of Police how to do his job any more than I would seek to intervene in the affairs of the Attorney General's Department and his independent decisions.
Now, let me go on from that. It is the case that before the meeting at the Convention Centre, we had representations, as one might have expected, from Chinese officials about the importance of security during the visit to Hong Kong of Mr QIAN Qichen and Director LU Peng. I hope that they will realize that they do not really need to advise us of matters like that. Provided that we know when guests are coming, we will do everything possible to look after their security.
But it is not surprising that they got in touch with us because exactly the same would have happened if we had been having the Secretary of State from the United States or the Canadian Prime Minister or other distinguished visitors. They would have got in touch with us as well. But we would, of course, have said to them "you can trust us, you can leave it to us", and that is exactly what we say to representations from China.
So, any policing of any demonstration over the coming months will be determined by our police operating under their own command and not being subjected to political influence or political pressure from anyone.
One last point. I very much hope that people in Hong Kong will continue to exercise their freedoms in the mature and responsible way which has characterized expressions of public concern, sometimes public grief, sometimes public anger, over the years. I think that the rest of the world should be impressed by the mature and moderate and restrained and responsible way in which a community which has faced some very substantial issues in the last few years, has discussed those issues and occasionally has protested and demonstrated about those issues.
I hope we can continue to earn that reputation for moderation over the coming months, just as much as I hope passionately that nobody in the future will ever seek to constrain the rights and freedoms which are given people under the Bill of Rights, and apparently are given them under the Basic Law.
法此某拜谅谅畊羆服ネ矗らセ烩ㄆ繻叫腀︽笆ㄆ龟Τ闽のそ秨笵簆τи谋眔硂笵簆琌讽и粄烩ㄆ繻琌疭よ獺カチ穦痙種硂翴羆服ネ矗舦猭矗ら摸ㄆン穦ユパ牡よ矪瞶辨カチ叫腀镑繰ぃ筁и辨羆服ネ穦σ納狦翠穦瞷牡诡ㄏノ筁だ忌薄猵獺硂禜穦ぃ翠硂︑パ穦и-
ㄤ龟龟琁舦猭и辨羆服ネぃ璶よㄆ薄и纯把籔叫腀ボ︽笆и︑笵妓北︑┮и辨羆服ネ璶眖ㄢよ硂ンㄆ牡よ╃尼讽瞷猵-
Τ魁紇盿и辨羆服ネ狦粄⊿Τ拜肈碞程玥莱眖い浪癚礢さΩ矪瞶╝ㄆンи谋眔硂琌キ龟璶―狦羆服ネ⊿т獺苦も牡よ妓癸叫腀ボ牡よр-
瞅ノ臟逆瞅硈瑍も丁ぃìΤ牡诡и種羆服ネ弧翠Τ舦猭и種弧翠琌秨カи-
叫腀璶и辨蝗刽さΩ牡よ矪瞶よ猭Τ瞷筁だ庇稰薄猵叫拜羆服ネ丁êㄇ魁紇盿
GOVERNOR: I will certainly consider that suggestion by the Honourable gentleman, but I do not believe that looking at the tapes would affect what I have said about the Commissioner and the police.
If I can add one point, I greatly respect the dignified way and the eloquent way in which the Honourable gentleman makes points about which he feels passionately strongly, and some of those points we share. I think that his leadership should help to ensure the moderation and responsibility which I have mentioned.
I hope that some of those who advise Chinese officials and some of those who seek to do so on a more permanent basis, apparently, will advise Chinese officials on how to encourage moderation and restraint in Hong Kong. I think some Members of this Council are taking curious decisions about how best to convey that advice, but I dare say, that is a matter which they will be able to live with and their consciences, presumably, will be able to live with.
畊纯胺Θ某
纯胺Θ某拜畊и苂喘羆服ガ現㎝玂琎边瞷-
ê竤玡帹ゴ癬躬纘ノ硂琌﹚秨穦Τ┦穦現┎﹚穦硂妓暗и稱р杠肈锣瞷現祇甶よ羆服碸﹚眃ネ筁计躬チ匡庢よΑ祇甶翠ゼㄓ現琌"よ︽現き㏄"初い現叭羆竝竝糂腞甋そ礛弧礷杠弧〆ヴ某窥穦パ〆ヴ玻ネ某琌腀種窥ぃ琌禫現┎碞穦绰ㄊ"锣浹"や〆ヴ瑈㎡и稱叫羆服ネ倒и氮滦
GOVERNOR: No, that is certainly not the Administration's policy. When we first proposed to have wholly-elected district boards and Municipal Councils, or pretty well wholly-elected, I remember being told this would produce disasters in the districts and in the city and the New Territories one of those many disasters which are much advertised as bedmates of democracy but did not happen to appear to show up. I go round the district boards with great regularity and they seem to me to be in extremely good spirits and doing an extremely good job.
As it happens, I was fortunate enough to be able to entertain at lunch yesterday all the Chairmen of the District Boards and we discussed some of their problems with Shelley LAU, who has done a marvellous job in increasing the enthusiasm with which the district boards work together to promote grassroots representative government. If the Honourable Member were to look a little to his left, he would see somebody else who was able to share my hospitality yesterday.
And let me add one thing to the Honourable gentleman. I saw Shelley LAU in the middle of last night at a hospital and I saw her this morning having clearly been up all night, and I saw her at the Sha Tin disaster, the fire on the hill, and I have seen her again and again helping the families of the children who were burnt on that occasion, and I will not hear a word against Shelley Lau.
纯胺Θ某拜畊羆服ネ弧糂腞甋纯Ω笿㎝╝螟叫㏑硂琌戮砫┮拜肈琌弧êㄇ〆ヴ某Τ窥и┤硂種Τ窥獽踞ヴ某τ硂籔羆服ネ崩︽布匡庢笻璉羆服ネ妮硂妓暗琌種礚舦礚墩渤玵克瞒ぃヴ揣τ妮硂妓暗琌種璶綼胠穝現舦
GOVERNOR: Well, I cannot think that if one was trying to move closer to the new sovereign power you would make speeches extolling the democratic credentials of billionaires and millionaires. How would that move you closer to the future sovereign power?
To be serious, I have not seen Shelley LAU's speech. If she was commending the work that in the past was done by many appointed members of district boards, then I would join her in that. If she was commending the work done by appointed members of Municipal Councils, I would commend her in that. But I am sure, like me, she recognizes the important developments in grassroots democracy which have taken place in the last few years.
And as for the suggestion that she was only doing her job, well, she was doing her job in a sense, but she happens to be one of those people who does her job 25 hours a day, and I am extremely proud to have her in my team, and any Chief Executive after 1997 who has a few Shelley LAU's in his team will be equally lucky.
畊チΤ诀穦祇ē郭Θ某
郭Θ某拜畊и笵現┎称Τ繧弊℡参璸计叫拜現┎Τ闽摸古稨穦瞷诀糷稨参璸计Τ杠現┎ら硄筁兵ㄒ皐癸êㄇ稨ㄣ砰磅猭︽笆
GOVERNOR: I think, and I believe it is fairly fundamental to the Bill. We have statistics and information about the age of buildings, and that will help us bring the provisions of the Bill into operation in sequence. But I do not think we have the sort of statistics which would be directly comparable to those we have on dangerous slopes. But I will look at that and see first of all whether I am right. If not, I will let the Honourable gentleman know. Secondly, if I am right, I will see whether there is anything we should do about it.
郭Θ某拜瞷て蒥常纯祇ネ≧ぱ╝ㄆ-
穦栋竒喷蛤秈浪癚妓э到┪某ㄇ箇ň惫琁叫拜現┎穦把σ硂ㄇ惫琁厨い璹箇ň≧ぱ╝現郸磷摸ㄆン祇ネ
GOVERNOR: Yes, as I said earlier, we must see what lessons can be learnt from this appalling tragedy and take what measures we can. All of us know that it is impossible in this world to prevent all tragedies, but there are some tragedies which society should be able to do more to prevent. There are some tragedies this society should be able to do more to prevent. I very much salute the work that a number of Honourable Members in this Legislative Council have done, for example, to increase health and safety at the place of work. We are still trying to catch up there with things that perhaps should have been in place a little earlier.
As for fire prevention, there is more that we can do, more that we must do and I hope that the future of this great city will not be marked and marred quite as frequently by tragedies which should be prevented in a civilized, successful, prosperous and decent community.
ADJOURNMENT AND NEXT SITTING
ヰ穦のΩ穦某
畊亩ゅ酚穦某盽砏セ畊瞷ガセЫヰ穦ガセЫせるら琍戳と230だ尿穦
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-four minutes to Four o'clock.
穦某笶と336だヰ穦
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL - 21 November 1996
158
ミ猭Ы せるら
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL - 21 November 1996
137
ミ猭Ы せるら
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