OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
ミ猭Ы穦某筁祘タΑ魁
Thursday, 4 July 1996
せるら琍戳
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
とだ穦某秨﹍
MEMBERS PRESENT
畊某
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
畊独Щ祇某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
㏄辩睶┥某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
琖皇某Q.C., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
畕地某
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
︙┯ぱ某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
糂胺祸某O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE EDWARD LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P.
辩醇翬某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
朝岸穨某
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
眎ゅ某
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
糕蚌┚某
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
毒浪膀某
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
︙庇古某
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
糂紌某
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
ッ笷某
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, O.B.E., J.P.
產不某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
地某
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
璣某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
襖略ビ某
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., F.Eng., J.P.
独篿某M.B.E., F.Eng., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
法此某
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
法У地某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
独岸藉某
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
嘲糠某
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
バ玊某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM
朝挪狶某
THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN
朝篴篱某
THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN
朝胞糭某
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW CHENG KAR-FOO
綠產碔某
THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN
綠癡某
THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P.
讲蚌某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN
︙玊く某
THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM
腑瓣辆某
THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK
糂ホ某
THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.
糂簙煌某J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK
霉不瓣某
THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG
霉璓某
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG
辩模┚某
THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE
郭Θ某
THE HONOURABLE MARGARET NG
艷祸某
THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN
肅繟某
THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI
虫ヲ昂某
THE HONOURABLE TSANG KIN-SHING
纯胺Θ某
DR THE HONOURABLE JOHN TSE WING-LING
谅ッ闹某
THE HONOURABLE MRS ELIZABETH WONG CHIEN CHI-LIEN, C.B.E., I.S.O., J.P.
独窥ㄤ军某C.B.E., I.S.O., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAWRENCE YUM SIN-LING
ヴ到圭某
MEMBERS ABSENT
畊某
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
腜某C.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D. (CANTAB), J.P.
瓣腳某O.B.E., LL.D. (CANTAB), J.P.
THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
ぶ城某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
糂祇某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
甃ㄎ瞶某O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA, M.B.E.
独綺笽某M.B.E.
DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
独﹜グ某
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
某
THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG
綠模磁某
DR THE HONOURABLE ANTHONY CHEUNG BING-LEUNG
眎▆某
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG
眎簙┚某
THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN
Χギ棚某
THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING
币某
THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING
霉睲某
THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN
馋莱某
PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING
畊そ戮
THE HONOURABLE DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, O.B.E., J.P.
CHIEF SECRETARY
︽現Ы某ガ現纯疆舦ネO.B.E., J.P.
MR RAFAEL HUI SI-YAN, J.P.
FINANCIAL SECRETARY
癩現砛くネJ.P.
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
ATTORNEY GENERAL
︽現Ы某現皑碔到ネC.M.G., J.P.
CLERK IN ATTENDANCE
畊
MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, SECRETARY GENERAL
毒更不ネ
PURSUANT TO STANDING ORDER 4AA, HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR, THE RIGHT HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER FRANCIS PATTEN, ATTENDED TO ADDRESS THE COUNCIL AND TO RECEIVE QUESTIONS.
羆服碸﹚眃ネㄌ沮穦某盽砏材4AA兵砏﹚畊穦某セЫ璓勉钡借高
PRESIDENT: Members please remain standing for the Governor.
CLERK: His Excellency the Governor.
PRESIDENT: The Governor will answer questions on the four topics which have been notified to Members. These four topics are: Western Corridor Railway, industrial safety, employment of people with a disability and future reporting under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and International Covenant on Economic, Social and Civil Rights (ICESCR). A Member who has asked a question may for the purpose of seeking elucidation ask a short follow-up question. A show of hands please. Mr Albert HO.
︙玊く某拜さぱи稱矗借高琌Τ闽"穝翧荐欢"拜肈玱ぃ琌肈ヘ絛瞅ずи稱矗闽翠い瓣挂︑パ拜肈и獺羆服ネ穦贾種氮畊ネぃи矗硂兜借高㎡
PRESIDENT: It is in order.
︙玊く某拜и獺羆服ネ睲贰程セЫΤ计︗某㎝ㄇチ丁刮砰瓜瓣ずいよ﹛㎝キ笷-
種ǎぃ┋-
╄笷ㄊ诀初砆┶荡挂τ-
秏靡砆⊿Μ翠カチ常闽み硂ンㄆㄆ龟繦耴翠㎝い瓣嘲闽玒禫ㄓ禫盞ちΤぃぶ翠瓣ず㎝щ戈︓Τ翠瓣ず挡盉ネㄠ▅翠㎝い瓣ぇ丁闽玒龟螟だ眔睲–ぱぃ耞Τ瑈┕翠㎝い瓣嘲狦い瓣現┎ノ挂兵ㄒ繦種礚瞶┶荡翠挂⊿Μи-
笴靡ン┪秏靡и獺穦ま癬翠紐納穦紇臫-
痲叫拜羆服ネ翠現┎и-
暗或珹璶―いよ坚睲ㄤ挂現郸のΤ快猭蠢и-
い瓣瓣挂ㄤ龟琌и-
︑瓣產舦㎝︑パ玂毁翠舦痲
GOVERNOR: First of all, I can assure the Honourable Member that the question does come under those subjects which are suggested for today. I think it comes under safety at work! (Laughter)
PRESIDENT: For people with a disability though! (Laughter)
GOVERNOR: I think that would get me into trouble with the Equal Opportunities Commission if I was to say anything like that.
I think the whole community has been shocked by what happened this week. Some may not have been surprised. But I think most have been shocked. A group of legislators, carrying a petition and more importantly, carrying what I understand to be perfectly valid travel documents, were stopped from entering China, their country after 1997, and had their travel documents removed. I am not quite sure under what law or under what regulation. I am sure that there would be a local and international outcry if the Government in Hong Kong was simply to take away people's travel documents in a similar way. It would be intolerable because we have the rule of law in Hong Kong. It is the spine of our system.
So we, I think understandably, expressed our concern to the New China News Agency and asked what the reason for this course of action was and I think the New China News Agency declined to add to the comments made by officials in Beijing that this was because the legislators in question, or may be the petition in question, represented some sort of threat to state security. Now, sometimes I disagree with Honourable Members, but I have never thought of them as being terribly threatening and we know perfectly well that other people have carried petitions to Beijing before and have been very courteously received, even when officials have not agreed with the terms of the petition. We know that Greenpeace protesters, none of them I think are about to become Chinese citizens, recently had their petition accepted perfectly courteously by Chinese officials. So I do think this was most unfortunate and I think that inevitably it had a rather bad taste on a day when people were thinking about what lies ahead in a year's time. It is another example of confidence being disturbed, not by the present Government, not by the British Government, but by Chinese officials.
Now, I always think that it is better to talk to people rather than to anathematize them. I came back from a visit to the United States recently and was greeted by a crowd of friends of the New China News Agency, gathered in from the highways and byways of Mongkok, to salute my re-emergence in Hong Kong society. I did not regard that as being threatening, I regarded it as being, even though I disagreed with what they were saying, one of the aspects of living in a free and open society. And I do think it would be better for China's reputation internationally and better for China's image, as we approach the transition in Hong Kong, for Chinese officials to talk to people even when they disagree with them rather than try to reject their views out of hand.
Nothing is going to change the fact that the majority of public opinion in Hong Kong supports the continuance of a free, open, democratic society and that is not going to be changed by the calendar, and it is not going to be changed by taking away people's valid travel documents.
There is a limit to what the present Hong Kong Government can do about it except to make its views clear, as I have made my views clear today and as other officials have made their views clear in the last few days.
It is inconceivable, I assume, that the same thing could happen after 1 July 1997 when those concerned would all, of course, be in a real sense citizens of one country, of China, and in those circumstances if anything like that was even contemplated, I am sure that the Special Administrative Region (SAR) Government would want to make sure that a decision like that was reversed. I assume that it is only because they have been waiting for a meeting in order to express their point of view, that members of the Preparatory Committee will want to say some of these things, though they may wish to say them in private rather than in public because I do not think this has been a very happy episode in the transition. People may disagree with those who went to Beijing. They may disagree with what they were saying in their petition. But I do not honestly think that anybody regards them as a horrendous threat.
︙玊く某拜畊ネи種羆服ネ癸硂ンㄆ猭ぃ筁產程闽み琌瞷Τ或ㄆ快и-
谋眔礚阶琌玡┪翠現┎Τ砫ヴ荷秖и-
玂毁и-
舦痲硂顶琿τēㄇ翠カチ珹某靡ン綝礚瞶⊿Μの礚瞶砆┶挂Τ挂礚瞶砆┶挂τ斗痙瓣ず叫拜羆服ネ硂贺薄猵Τゴ衡盢ㄆ矗ユい璣羛羛蹈舱癚阶Τ快猭ㄏ翠現┎㎝い瓣現┎笷璓ㄇ瞶秆︓蛮よぇ丁斗帽竝称а魁碞硂ㄇ挂拜肈Τㄇ逼琵翠笵τщ戈璸购щ戈┪翠瓣ずΤ┮非称笵玡春︙ぃ笵羆服ネ弧弧ㄣ砰妓暗
GOVERNOR: To be honest with the Honourable Member, I am not quite sure what the subject would be on the Joint Liaison Group (JLG) agenda. Would the subject be that those with Chinese travel documents should be able to travel around the world on them? I mean, of course that must be what Chinese travel documents mean and I presume there is some law in China which should govern these matters and there may be legal remedies available to Honourable Members at some time in China. I am not sure, but we know that there are slightly odd things that sometimes happen to people with travel documents with a Chinese chop on them. We have living in our midst a Chinese trade unionist who, even though he had a valid Chinese passport, is refused re-entry to China on it, presumably because he too is regarded as some sort of threat.
All I can say to the honourable gentleman is that I very much hope that there will not be similar incidents like this because they not only raise concerns in this community, but they raise concerns outside this community about issues like freedom of travel for people in Hong Kong in the future. And those are concerns which it is in nobody's interest to raise.
PRESIDENT: Mr Edward HO.
︙┯ぱ某拜и稱羆服ネ矗Τ闽﹁场ǐ碮臟隔借高程и-
碞ㄆ纯羭︽Ω穦某琎ぱи-
秈︽某臛阶┮иぃ穦酵灿竊拜肈и-
稰堡琌﹁臟Чら戳ゲ穦┑筐τ笆のЧら戳礚猭箇沮и┮セいよや硂璸购-
ㄓ┮ぃ骸琌翠現┎羆ぃ腀盢戈㎝╯厨ユ倒-
程翠現┎倒ミ猭Ы某计厨и稱硂ㄇゅン莱そ秨倒そ渤璶蛤いよ㎝癸杠硂膀祘眔秨﹍砍┪╯τ翠┎玱ぃ倒いよ硂ㄇ戈瘤礛硂ㄇ戈ごゼ莉翠現┎┯粄琌非絋┪ごゼΤ∕﹚硂ㄇ戈砆そ秨叫拜羆服ネ狦ぃ倒いよ硂ㄇ戈郸菠よΤ︙痲矪㎡и笵笲块琍戳ㄊиご稱拜郸菠︙讽Τ∕﹚ぃ倒いよ硂ㄇ戈
GOVERNOR: But we did. We briefed the Chinese side in the JLG consistently and I think the honourable gentleman is raising a very large red herring. On the one hand, he says that he wants us to get on with the Western Corridor Railway, while on the other hand, he stirs up again an argument about whether somehow we are failing to inform the Preparatory Committee or Chinese officials and must do so and get their chop before we take any further steps.
I think things have been said in the context of the Preparatory Committee discussions in the last few weeks which have been extremely unfortunate and unhelpful and perhaps have more to do with the dynamics of the Preparatory Committee than they do with the dynamics of public transport in Hong Kong.
Let us be clear with what I think the community is agreed about. I think the community has made up its mind that it wants the Western Corridor Railway and the other associated elements in the railway development strategy. I do not think, there is, as it were, a "whether question". The issues are how we best build the railway, how much it is going to cost, how we can do it in the most expeditious and financially sensible way, and that is what we are trying to examine at the moment. We are undertaking a number of studies. Now some Honourable Members say that the studies are too expensive, that there are too many of them. I have to say that in proportion to the total likely cost of the project, the cost of the studies is not out of line. We have just come to this Legislative Council and got approval for $90 million in order to undertake studies for electronic road pricing, which we reckon will cost in all about a billion. So almost 10% is going in consultancy fees in studies to make sure that the project is as efficient as possible, and by and large, that sort of percentage figure, of a total project, is not out of order. We need those studies and we will keep Honourable Members wholly informed, as we have in the past, about the studies we are going to do and about the results of those studies. Now the sooner those studies, particularly on the alignment of the Western Corridor Railway, give us the opportunity to reach decisions, we will reach those decisions. But it must be perfectly obvious to Honourable Members that the Western Corridor Railway is going to be built by the SAR Government and it will be a matter within the SAR Government's autonomy. The Government of Hong Kong will reach decisions as soon as it can. If those decisions have to be arrived at before 1 July 1997, we would of course need to have the enthusiastic agreement of my successor. Otherwise it would make no sort of sense whatsoever. If the main decisions are taken on the other side of 1 July 1997, I want to make sure that my successor has the best possible and most informed basis on which to take those decisions. But I really do not think that we should allow this important discussion to get distorted by arguments about whether or not we have given China enough information, particularly, as I repeat, since when it comes to building this project, it should be a matter wholly within the autonomy of the SAR.
PRESIDENT: Mr HO, do you have a follow-up?
MR EDWARD HO: Yes, thank you, Mr President. Maybe the translation did not come through very well so I will just have to follow up in English. I think the Governor probably has a prepared answer, but that was not the question I asked. First of all, I did not raise any question about the costs of studies and so on and so forth, because I am not in a position to comment on the cost until all the figures are known and all that.
And I am certainly not trying to stir up something. I am merely asking a simple question as far as how to co-operate with the Chinese during this period. I fully agree that after 1997, this is the kind of project that the Hong Kong SAR Government should do on its own, should decide on its own. But unfortunately at this time, we do have to co-operate with the Chinese and I am merely asking the question whether the Governor agrees that the flow of information would be beneficial?
GOVERNOR: Totally, totally, and we have provided a great deal of information to Chinese officials, both inside the JLG and outside and will continue to do so.
The only point that I was seeking to make is that the decisions taken about the Western Corridor Railway, in many cases, will be taken either on the brink of the transition or after the transition and they will be about a project which lies wholly within the autonomy of the SAR. Now that does not mean that Chinese officials should not be kept fully informed. Of course, they should be kept fully informed. But I do not think we should think that we have to negotiate each element as we try to put together the information, out of which a decision will be shaped, with Chinese officials. I do not think that would be in the interests of Hong Kong and I do not think it would be in the interests of getting on with the project as quickly as possible.
So I am all for giving maximum information. I am also all for ensuring that we have all the information that we need in order to make a decision as soon as we can.
The Honourable Member actually mentioned two issues which I did not touch on; one issue, namely, the commencement date. We will obviously want to start the project if it is agreed to go ahead with it, as soon we can. The problems are not unique, but the problems that we particularly face with the Western Corridor Railway are those of land resumption in the New Territories which will both take time and be fairly costly. We will be coming to this Council later in the year with legislative proposals which would enable us to resume land, not just for the Western Corridor Railway, but for other rail projects as well and I hope that Members will deal with that legislation expeditiously. It will not, I can assure the Honourable Member and others, tie their hands as far as the Western Corridor Railway is concerned. But it will make it possible to go ahead with the Western Corridor Railway rapidly, if Honourable Members here and others decide that that should happen.
PRESIDENT: Dr YEUNG Sum.
法此某拜畊ネиゑ耕闽みêㄇ畓竤砰碞琌摧痚碞穨拜肈叫拜現┎硂よ︙癬盿繷ノ摧痚矗ㄑ碞穨诀穦現┎︙躬纘沟竨ノ摧痚
GOVERNOR: We had what I thought, and I believe those present thought, was a third interesting and useful summit on the issue of disability and employment last week. Certainly, one Member of the Council who is here at the moment was there and played a distinguished part in the proceedings.
I think that those meetings, like the ones we have held on disability and transport, have helped to push things forward, though in the area of disability and employment there is, I still think, much further to go. It has been perhaps particularly difficult over the last year because of the tightening in the labour market generally. But we have still managed to place about 1 400, just over 1 400 people with disabilities through our own Labour Department services. We have still managed to increase the number of people with a disability employed in the Government to about 4 200 and we managed to do better than our target of 500 in creating new job opportunities elsewhere for people with disabilities. We actually got to about 550.
Now we have increased those targets for the coming year, for example, the last target from 550 to 700 and I hope that we will make it.
My impression is that the most important thing that we have to do is to encourage employers to understand that they are doing themselves a favour by employing somebody with a disability rather than doing the person with a disability a favour. I think we have a real problem of education and it is interesting how, in some sectors, one or two firms employ a lot of people with disabilities and others hardly any. Let me give one example which may not be well taken by those that I do not mention. In the area of the media and broadcasting, ATV has an outstandingly good record. We appealed to a number of organizations during the course of this year to take on more people with a disability. ATV, I think I am right in recalling, took on an extra 14. Hong Kong Commercial Broadcasting took on an extra couple. None of the other people whom we contacted replied.
So it is an indication of how employers, individual firms, if they focus on the issue, if they make a real effort, can actually help and help themselves by getting loyal, hard working and dedicated members of staff, even if those members of staff have a disability.
PRESIDENT: Mr WONG Wai-yin.
独岸藉某拜畊ネ羆服ネ纯竒琁現厨ず眏秸現┎讽玡叭琌璶莱穝﹁跋癸ユ硄拜肈籔現┎Ω眏秸穦荷程叭―箂箂ЧΘ﹁臟隔祘琌る玱弧﹁臟隔硑籔斗痙疭跋現┎∕﹚種箂箂ぃЧΘ﹁臟隔祘ぃ︙ЧΘ穝﹁场じべ窾﹡チ獶盽ア辨临ぃ璶膥尿ぶ峨óぇ璚羆服ネ癸Τ稰ず㎡癸ヘ玡﹡チ璶膥尿ぃгぶ峨ó璚猵現┎穦Τㄇ或穝┯踞㎡
PRESIDENT: May I suggest that, as this is the last sitting for the Governor's Question Time for this Session and at this rate I think we can only take five, six questions, Members keep their questions succinct and the Governor keeps his answers succinct too. (Laughter)
GOVERNOR: The Governor will try to be only a little longer than the questions in his answers.
Let me make it clear again what I have said. I do not think the Honourable Member disputes the fact that the Western Corridor Railway, if it is decided to be built, will be built by the SAR Government. Now, the initial decision may be taken, if we get all the studies we have to do completed in time, before 1 July 1997. But we would obviously need, in those circumstances, to take those decisions with the agreement of my successor. Otherwise we would be in a ridiculous position and we would be in a position which was extremely unfair to the SAR Government.
That is not an attempt to cop out of the importance of getting ahead with this project as rapidly as possible. I share the honourable gentleman's commitment to this project, and the other elements in it. I know from my visit to Tuen Mun the other day how much concern there is in that community about getting on with the project. We have, as the honourable gentleman knows, agreed to extend the Western Corridor Railway from the outskirts of Tuen Mun to the centre and the sooner the project can be completed the better.
I hope the Honourable Member and other Honourable Members are out there supporting the Government when we start having arguments about land resumption when we find ourselves dealing with the problem of 1 000 graves in the New Territories and all those other issues. We will need support from Honourable Members then and I hope we get it.
独岸藉某拜ㄤ龟и借高琌羆服ネ弧箂箂ぃЧΘ縱祘ê或現┎Τㄇ穝┯踞覸絯硂碭ユ硄澜峨薄猵
GOVERNOR: I cannot tell the honourable gentleman exactly when we will be able to complete it. It may be that the decision will be taken to do the project in phases and, for example, to complete the passenger railway system to the northwest New Territories which will generate financial flows, before other parts of the project. It is very difficult to know whether, how to take those decisions and when to take them. But I can assure the honourable gentleman that we understand as well as he does the transport problems in the northwest New Territories. The main answer to them is the Western Corridor Railway in my judgement, though I am not pre-empting later debate. But we also have to continue to do things like improving the road system and the ferry system to the northwest New Territories and particularly Tuen Mun.
PRESIDENT: Mrs Selina CHOW.
MRS SELINA CHOW: Mr Governor, if we can now make the decision on the second runway for it to be completed by the end of 1998, why can the decision on the Western Corridor Railway not be made in the same way? And would the Governor do anything or everything he can to expedite this very important and urgent decision in the same way that he has resolved the question on the second runway?
GOVERNOR: Well, can I just say once again that I am delighted now that the questions are all about pressing us to complete the Western Corridor Railway as rapidly as possible rather than questions focusing on some of the intestines of consultants' reports. I think that is a very helpful development in the debate. In the case of the second runway, we were dealing with a proposal that came to us from the Airport Authority, a proposal which clearly added to the economic and transport viability of the project which is nearing completion. It is a project which does not need any resumption of land and in relation to the rest of the project, it is relatively, well, not cheap, but it is not as expensive as something like the Western Corridor Railway. In the case of the Western Corridor Railway, we are talking about the need to deal about 400 hectares of land. We are dealing with a project which at present prices is likely to cost $75 billion and we are dealing with a lot of queries, not least reasonable ones, from some Honourable Members about whether this or that alignment is right, about whether this or that particular proposal for the railway is the right one. So it is a rather more complicated business, but I assure the honourable lady that we will try to complete the whole business of coming to a decision as rapidly as we can and then get on with the project as rapidly as we can, and I hope we can complete it in Hong Kong time.
MRS SELINA CHOW: I entirely take the Governor's point. But the gist of my question really lies with the point as to why we should be taking into consideration the appointment of the Chief Executive Designate. Why can we not just press ahead and do whatever is necessary to expedite that decision irrespective of when that Chief Executive Designate is appointed?
GOVERNOR: I can assure the honourable lady that if we were able to come to a decision next week or the week after that or within a couple of months, we in the Government would want to make that decision. We would of course, in those circumstances, want to go to the Chinese officials in the Preparatory Committee and say that we intended that we wanted to go ahead in that way. I was merely seeking to be realistic and I am sure the honourable lady would be very shocked if we were in a position, after the appointment of a Chief Executive Designate has been announced, to make the decision and we did not consult the Chief Executive Designate about it. We are not trying to shovel off our responsibilities. We are merely trying to ensure that the Government of Hong Kong and the development of some of the biggest infrastructure projects in Hong Kong represents a seamless transition as far as possible.
PRESIDENT: Mr LAW Chi-kwong.
霉璓某拜畊ネ羆服ネ矗現┎Τ4 200そ叭妮摧痚ぃ筁沮и秆ㄤいΤ950琌︹τи-
ぃр-
讽摧痚狦琌硂妓璸衡杠そ叭砰╰いΤぃì2%琌摧痚叫拜現┎Τ璸购璹竨ノ摧痚ヘ夹ㄒ4%┪5%穦璶―ㄇ猭﹚刮砰┪現┎戈刮砰璹ミ竨ノ摧痚ヘ夹
GOVERNOR: Let me be helpful straightaway to the honourable gentleman. We have been asked this question so many times before that the Secretary for the Civil Service has decided we will put ourselves in the position in which we no longer have to answer it next year. So, we are going to redefine the figures and we are going to take out those who are colour-blind and set a new and appropriate target.
But let me tell the honourable gentleman what the consequence of that is. At present, there are 70 grades in the Civil Service where you need to have the ability to distinguish between colours. Some of those grades are obvious, for example, the Fire Services and not just to see the red fire-engines. If you take out the number of people employed in those grades from the total number of civil servants, and if you then take away from the figure of those civil servants with a disability those whose disability is colour-blindness, the proportion of disabled civil servants in the figure that is left goes up, not down. So in a sense, the Government's position, in percentage terms, looks better if we remove the figure for those with the impairment that the honourable gentleman mentioned, an impairment which and I will not embarrass him is shared by one of the honourable gentleman's honourable friends.
So we will, from next year, present the figures differently. We will give an aggregate figure which includes those with a colour-blindness. But we will give a separate figure removing both the grades which need full colour on the one hand and those among the disabled with colour-blindness too. And then, on the basis of that new baseline, we will have to set ourselves a new and higher target year on year. This year, we did rather better than our target and I hope we can do so in the future.
I am loathe to direct bodies outside the Government, but we have encouraged bodies outside the Government to pursue the same sort of employment policy that we have been following, and some the Housing Authority is a case in point have done pretty well in providing opportunities for people with a disability, and we are very grateful to them. But I do think that if you set up organizations to run a sector of public administration, you should be a little bit careful about how many things you direct them to do.
霉璓某拜и某現┎σ納р毕端ó┪毕ó锣厚︹и纯瓣ǎ筁
GOVERNOR: I would consider anything. It may disappoint quite a lot of children. (Laughter)
PRESIDENT: The industrial safety-cross is certainly green in colour.
GOVERNOR: Perhaps it will be more environmentally-friendly if we change the colour.
PRESIDENT: Mr SIN Chung-kai.
虫ヲ昂某拜畊ネ程Τу翠玡┕ㄊ砆┶挂いよ琌沮虫τ┶荡-
挂翠瞷琌ㄏノōだ靡㎝璣瓣瓣チ臔酚挂и-
踞みぇ硂ぃ琌堵临琌フ虫妓穦翠チ挂ㄆ叭矪筁闽まノΜи-
璣瓣瓣チ臔酚┪ōだ靡狦Μ硂ㄢ笴靡ン⊿Τㄤよ甧и-
ㄆ龟и︳璸Г硂某绑ずτ虫⊿Τ30Τ20ぃ現┎硂よ暗ㄇ或㎡
GOVERNOR: Well, I attempted to answer this question at some length earlier, or a related question. I think the point the honourable gentleman is making is what would happen if, presumably after 1997, people with valid documents to go in and out of Hong Kong had them taken away. Is that the point the honourable gentleman is making?
虫ヲ昂某拜畊ネㄤ龟虏虫瞷и-
常稱玡┕笴ぃ幢┤瞒秨翠ぃ挂虫穦翠まノ沮翠猭ㄒ瞷⊿Τ或暗瞷砛⊿Τ盢ㄓ穦Τ快㎡
GOVERNOR: I see why the events on Monday raise that anxiety in people's minds. But it is, of course, I think I can say this with confidence, far fetched. Immigration is one of the issues that comes within the responsibilities of the Hong Kong SAR Government and it will be for the Immigration Department of the Hong Kong Government to apply the law and operate under the rule of law and under the rule of law, it is simply inconceivable that the events that the honourable gentleman described could happen in Hong Kong, either before or after 1997. If that were to happen, it would mean that the rule of law had simply been trampled underfoot.
PRESIDENT: But the list, if the list exists, it is not the responsibility of the Hong Kong Government, is it?
GOVERNOR: Well, I think the question of a list was a sort of sub-text to the honourable gentleman's main anxiety, but certainly we have no list which contains the name of legislators whom we think represent a threat to the security of this astonishingly stable community.
PRESIDENT: Mr Henry TANG.
MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, Mr Governor, I would like to ask a question regarding employment of the disabled. I was very encouraged to hear that the Governor is prepared to commit the Hong Kong Government to taking a leading role in employing disabled persons.
After the last summit, I must say that I was overwhelmed by the response I received, especially from disabled groups that they do not see themselves as a burden on society, they do not like to receive welfare and they like to be able to contribute to the community as much as anybody else.
So, as far as what I proposed in the last summit, if the Government were to be able to co-operate together with the disabled people, then I am prepared to co-ordinate to open convenience stores in government institutions such as schools, hospitals and other government institutions. Now judging from the overwhelming response, I think it is something that they would very much like to pursue.
I would like the Governor to clarify for me today whether you are prepared to commit the Education and Manpower Branch or the Health and Welfare Branch, that those facilities would become available if I can come up with the capital and the disabled groups who are prepared to do that and employ predominantly disabled people?
GOVERNOR: The honourable gentleman's response last week to that point when it was put, I think by Sir Harry FANG, was extremely encouraging and of course we would want to give that initiative a fair wind. I suggest that perhaps the Secretary for Education and Manpower should get in touch with the Honourable Member, and with perhaps the Secretary for Health and Welfare. There may be a number of ways in which we can help, not just by the provision of facilities, but also by trying to target supported employment places on a scheme like that. But I am very grateful for the positive response which the honourable gentleman has made.
I know that there are other employers, like the Mass Transit Railway (MTR), who have been extremely positive in the view they have taken of the employment of people with a disability and the MTR, like the honourable gentleman, and like other employers, I mention ATV again, find the truth of what disability groups have said to the Honourable Member, that is, that people with a disability are tremendous contributors to the workforce and to the rest of society whenever they are given the opportunity.
PRESIDENT: Mr TANG, a short follow-up please.
MR HENRY TANG: Yes, it will be a very short follow-up. If I may make a suggestion to the Governor that actually the Civil Service Branch does not strip colour-blindness off the statistics because I do not want to go into these micro arguments about which job really requires full colour awareness or which job you can get away with some degree of colour-blindness, otherwise the figures will be even more esoteric and difficult to decipher in the future.
GOVERNOR: I think what we should do is to give an aggregate figure as we do today, but then give the doubting Thomases the other figure as well, so that people do not simply think that we are, as it were, employing people with colour blindness as though they had greater disabilities than they do.
PRESIDENT: Mr Andrew CHENG.
綠產碔某拜畊ネи稱矗兜籔そチ舦㎝現獀舦瓣悔そΤ闽借高產常笵翠璣現┎绊∕は癸羬ミ猭穦︓瞷硂ㄨミ初ご琌は癸羬ミ猭穦羛幅琍戳綝笿ㄢ︗ㄆ竒矗筁êㄇ癘挂いよ-
帽筁睲贰弧羛幅琌獶猭舱麓挂叫拜羆服ネ狦羛幅㎝や羛穦常砆獶猭舱麓τ翠現┎弧穦そチ舦㎝現獀舦瓣悔そΩ羛瓣矗ユ厨いよ绊∕弧ウぃ穦矗ユ叫拜現┎硂厨ず穦盢и-
さΩ綝笿ㄒ砆堵虫︓砆Μ秏靡单绊∕羛瓣は琈辨チるらごㄉΤи-
そチ舦
GOVERNOR: First of all, can I say that I cannot conceive of how the organization to which the honourable gentleman belongs could be regarded as an illegal organization either before or after 1997. I cannot conceive of how that could be the case if the Bill of Rights and the International Covenants were still being applied to Hong Kong. Hong Kong, if that were to happen, would not only be a much less agreeable place in which to live, it would be a much less successful place and a much less prosperous place in which to live, because that sort of Hong Kong would not attract international investment like today's Hong Kong does. So I do not believe that could conceivably be on anybody's agenda and I am sorry that the events of Monday give the impression that it might be on the agenda.
I think the United Nations Commission on Human Rights is fully aware of our position on democratic development in Hong Kong. I am not sure whether a reference in our report to the treatment of Honourable Members in China would be relevant. It might be more relevant if China itself was a signatory to the International Covenants and that, of course, is the most important way in which China could underline its commitment to the application of those covenants in Hong Kong. At present, there are undertakings in the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law that the International Covenants should be applied to Hong Kong and within the International Covenants themselves, there are specific references to the reporting obligation. So there is no question in my mind, in the mind of the United Nations Human Rights Commission, in the mind of the European Union or in the mind of the International Commission of Jurists, that China has an obligation to report under the International Covenants after 1997.
綠產碔某拜и稱虏虫蛤秈钮Ч羆服ネ倒и氮滦и钮ぃ翠璣現┎Τㄇ或措笵и-
程畒Τき︗ミ猭Ы某砆⊿Μ秏靡и稱矗兜ㄣ砰借高パи-
琌は癸羬ミ猭穦羛幅籔翠璣現┎瞷ミ初璓τミ猭Ы某羛幅ōだ┕ㄊ澈砆⊿Μ秏靡叫拜羆服ネΤ︙よ猭蠢и-
秏靡
GOVERNOR: I have said to the Honourable Member earlier that if the Chinese Government confiscates a valid Chinese document from a post-97 citizen who is travelling, there is a limit to what either the Hong Kong Government or the British Government can do to make them change their mind and disgorge the document. We, as the honourable gentleman knows, raised the issue with the New China News Agency vigorously. It has been referred to by the Chief Secretary during her visit to London. I have referred to it this afternoon. And unfortunately, the authorities in Beijing persist in believing that the honourable gentleman represents some sort of threat to state security. I am not quite sure that I have ever regarded him in that alarming light and I am not sure that many other people around the world would be quite so worried about the honourable gentleman. He seems like a perfectly amiable fellow to me. (Laughter)
PRESIDENT: Mr YUM Sin-ling.
ヴ竡圭某拜畊ネи稱拜拜羆服ネ穦硓筁い璣羛羛蹈舱は琈硂Ωи-
ㄊ砆┶挂の砆⊿Μ靡ン穦紇臫盢ㄓ疭跋臔酚瓣悔丁莉眔┯粄㎡
GOVERNOR: I answered the question on the JLG earlier, saying that I was not sure under what heading we would deal with the confiscation of Chinese travel documents by the Chinese authorities. But we can certainly consider the matter before the next JLG meeting in September. I hope that what happened on Monday will not raise doubts about the SAR travel document and the returnability of people with the SAR travel document, because if that was to happen, it would send an extremely bad signal around the world. Let me emphasize again why it should have no bearing, reprehensible as it was, on the question of greater ease of travel for people with the SAR travel document.
Immigration is a matter which falls to the SAR Government within the terms of the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law, so it will be for the Immigration Department of the SAR Government to determine policy and frontier controls and I cannot conceive of circumstances, I repeat, in which the Immigration Department of an SAR which will be operating within the Basic Law and applying the rule of law, could deny returnability to people with valid travel documents.
PRESIDENT: Dr John TSE.
谅ッ闹某拜畊ネи稱矗兜闽畓碞穨借高ㄓи常闽み畓醇碞穨拜肈玡иセЫ矗現┎竨ノぶ畓醇翠︳璸Τ窾畓醇現┎瞷竨ノ34κだ瞯讽иぃ稱琌弧畓醇狦弧畓酚瞷現┎よウ毙▅坝竨ノ畓醇璣瓣㎝らセ常璹Τκだゑ┮孔タ猍跌そΤ碞璶竨ノ琘κだゑ畓叫拜羆服ネ翠穦σ納璹ミ摸猭ㄒ㎡
GOVERNOR: I think the Honourable Member is not strictly correct about the position in the United Kingdom, though it is some time since I have been there. But I do not think that is a completely accurate reflection of the position in the United Kingdom. But I think that he has described the position in Japan.
I am not, I have to say, very much in favour of statutory quotas which I think give employers or some employers the impression that somehow they are doing something which is not in their interests. I think we have to get employers to understand that employing people with a disability is in their interest and we have to make sure that there are other services available in society like better transport for the disabled which make it possible for people with a disability, having got a job, to get to it.
In the Government, I realize that we must go further. We have made substantial progress in the last couple of years, since we began these summit meetings. We intend to continue to make progress. We recognize that we have to give a lead but we hope, as well, that some of those who lecture us on doing better, like the media, will themselves do better and employ more people with a disability.
谅ッ闹某拜畊ネи稱羆服ネぃ稱矗の璣瓣и粄醚璣瓣Τ闽猭ㄒぃ稱矗琌璣瓣Τ猭ㄒ砏﹚诀篶璶竨ノ2%畓Τ╯-
硄盽常竨ノκだぇ翴碭┮薄猵会廓Ъ璣瓣ㄏ璹Τ猭ㄒ⊿Τ宽眖羆服ネ矗ユ硄拜肈ㄤ龟翠⊿Τよ猭秆∕畓ユ硄拜肈產常笵Г近慈セ碞ぃ穎そぺиぃ稱弧ユ硄拜肈и矗琌Τ闽碞穨借高叫拜羆服ネ穦σ納Θミ膀畓︑竨㎡
GOVERNOR: I am certainly prepared to look at that. I think it is an issue which has been examined in the past when sometimes it has been suggested that it is not only people with a disability who should be helped with government support to become self-employed. There are, of course, some existing financial mechanisms which could be used, including, I assume, supported employment which could assist to some extent. But I will look at the honourable gentleman's question and come back to him on it.
PRESIDENT: Miss CHAN Yuen-han.
朝胞糭某拜畊ネ蔼砍琵и矗借高硂絛瞅さぱ⊿Τ某矗借高琌Τ闽穨拜肈
羆服ネ琵и倒弧ㄇ珿ㄆ穝籞盺醋琜厄禴ホㄓ溃ぺ包讽и籔穨ヴ穝籞盺の独跋ǖ跌絃ǖ跌и祇瞷佩瞷禜ǖ跌╬加-
弧穨パ骋矪璽砫讽и稯冻ǎΤ醋琜瞷拜肈-
玱禗иêぃ琌パ骋矪τ琌パ┬竝璽砫ぇㄇ穐笲穐笲砯差ぃ┋眖铬狾禴и笵硂ㄆ珿タ今"η︹盿"ê琂ぃ琌パ骋矪璽砫ぃ琌パㄆ竝璽砫и稱拜拜現┎︙翠祇笷穦穦Τ硂贺┣瞷禜㎡硂琌タ琌и-
穨よ暗眔ぃ璶㎡現┎琌Τ砫ヴノ参诀ㄓ秆∕и┮弧珿ㄆ㎡
羆服ネ穦癸и弧現┎砞Τ戮穨胺眃Ы"戮Ы"骋矪Τ穨服诡и稱羆服ネの現┎瞷戮Ы┮暗琌簈籖狜キㄆウ⊿Τ璽癬戮Ы戮砫セㄓΘミ戮Ы俱穦常戳辨戮Ы参膚翠Τ闽戮穨拜肈堡程挡狦琌ウ暗ㄇ簈籖狜キㄆ讽礛иぃ﹚戮Ы瞷ノ拜肈琌現┎癸ヘ玡穨種繵ネ薄猵︙瞷硂贺薄и辨現┎莱и硂会珿ㄆ︙現┎ぃΘミいァ诀篶ㄓ参膚
GOVERNOR: I honestly think that if the problem in Hong Kong on industrial safety was just a question of central co-ordination, we would have no difficulties. I think the problem is much more difficult than that and much more tragic than that and I would, without reservation, like to say to the honourable lady and other representatives of trade unions in this Legislative Council, that they have done as much as anybody to focus the community's attention on this, one of the worst blots on Hong Kong's record.
Our figures on industrial safety, though they have been coming down slightly, are still appallingly high for a civilized community like this and we do have to work to bring them down much more. There are a lot of things we could do and are trying to do, following the report that we produced in 1995. One of them is to co-ordinate things within the Government better, and the group of colleagues under the chairmanship of the Secretary for Education and Manpower, which met about three weeks ago, is meeting again next week to continue to try to ensure that we get a grip in the Government on the various aspects of our responsibility for dealing with the problem.
I think we have to continue to increase the amount of inspection and regulation that we do. I have to say that we have actually increased the number of factory inspectors on the ground six-and-a-half-fold since 1992 six-and-a-half times as many factory inspectors now in place as there were in 1992. We have increased penalties. We have increased regulation. I hope that the two bills which are, at present, in the Legislative Council which have a bearing on these matters will be passed as quickly as possible. We will be bringing at least four or five further measures to the Legislative Council later in the year.
But after doing all this, at the end of the day, the real issue is whether we can get employers and employees to recognize that they have to work within a wholly different concept of safety than that which tends to have prevailed in the last few years. I hope we can make that breakthrough. So long as we fail to do so, there will alas be too many widows, too many fatherless children, as a result of accidents which are preventable and should be prevented in a civilized society like Hong Kong.
ADJOURNMENT AND NEXT SITTING
PRESIDENT: In accordance with Standing Orders, I now adjourn the Council until 2.30 pm Wednesday, 10 July 1996.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes to Four o'clock.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL - 4 July 1996
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ミ猭Ы せるら
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL - 4 July 1996
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