HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL 207
OFFICIAL REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
Meeting of 20th May 1964
PRESENT:
HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR (PRESIDENT)
SIR DAVID CLIVE CROSBIE TRENCH, KCMG, MC
BRIGADIER THE HONOURABLE THOMAS HADDON, CBE
SENIOR MILITARY OFFICER
THE HONOURABLE EDMUND BRINSLEY TEESDALE, MC
COLONIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE MAURICE HEENAN, QC
ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE JOHN CRICHTON MCDOUALL
SECRETARY FOR CHINESE AFFAIRS
THE HONOURABLE JOHN JAMES COWPERTHWAITE, CMG, OBE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE KENNETH STRATHMORE KINGHORN
DIRECTOR OF URBAN SERVICES
DR THE HONOURABLE TENG PIN-HUI, OBE
DIRECTOR OF MEDICAL AND HEALTH SERVICES
THE HONOURABLE WILLIAM DAVID GREGG
DIRECTOR OF EDUCATION
THE HONOURABLE JAMES JEAVONS ROBSON
ACTING DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS
THE HONOURABLE DHUN JEHANGIR RUTTONJEE, OBE
THE HONOURABLE FUNG PING-FAN, OBE
THE HONOURABLE RICHARD CHARLES LEE, CBE
THE HONOURABLE KWAN CHO-YIU, OBE
THE HONOURABLE KAN YUET-KEUNG, OBE
THE HONOURABLE WILLIAM CHARLES GODDARD KNOWLES
THE HONOURABLE SIDNEY SAMUEL GORDON
THE HONOURABLE LI FOOK-SHU, OBE
MR ANDREW MCDONALD CHAPMAN (Deputy Clerk of Councils)
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MINUTES
The minutes of the meeting of the 6th May 1964, were confirmed.
PAPERS
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY, by Command of His Excellency the Governor, laid upon the table the following papers: —
Subject LN No
Sessional Paper, 1964: —
No 23—Annual Report by the Director of Civil Aviation
for the year 1962-63.
Report of the Board of Management of the Hong Kong Tourist Association, 1963-64.
Hong Kong and Kowloon Wharf and Godown Company Limited (By-laws) Ordinance.
Hong Kong and Kowloon Wharf and Godown Company
Limited By-laws, 1964 ............................................................. 65
Boilers and Pressure Receivers Ordinance, 1962.
Boilers and Pressure Receivers (Forms) (Amendment) Order, 1964 67
Protection of Women and Juveniles Ordinance, 1951.
Declaration of Places of Refuge ........................................................ 68
Protection of Women and Juveniles Ordinance, 1951.
Declaration of Places of Refuge (Amendment) ................................ 69
Registration of Persons Ordinance, 1960.
Registration of Persons (Re-registration) (No 18) Order, 1964 ........ 70
Dangerous Goods Ordinance, 1956.
Dangerous Goods (General) (Amendment) Regulations, 1964 ........ 71
Emergency Regulations Ordinance.
Prevention of Cholera Regulations, 1938 (Revocation) Order, 1964 72
Training Centres Ordinance, 1953.
Shek Pik Training Centre Declaration, 1964 ..................................... 73
Registration of Persons Ordinance, 1960.
Registration of Persons (Re-registration) (No 19) Order, 1964 ........ 74
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QUESTIONS
MR Y. K. KAN, pursuant to notice, asked the following questions: —
In the Budget Debate in March 1962 the then Colonial Secretary, in reply to my criticism of the telephone service, undertook that Government would discuss with the Hong Kong Telephone Company on the question of a more rapid expansion of its services to meet demand.
Have these discussions in fact taken place and, if so, with what results?
Has Government been informed by the Company of its expansion programme and, if so, is Government satisfied that this programme adequately meets with the present and future demands of the public for telephone services?
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY replied as follows: —
Sir, I wonder if I might first venture to correct a phrase in my honourable Friend's question which, uncorrected, might give a wrong impression. During the 1962 budget debate the Honourable Colonial Secretary undertook, not to discuss with the Telephone Company, but to continue discussions with them. These discussions have in fact continued on a regular basis and have covered a wide variety of problems facing the company in its programme of expansion. They have been particularly useful in dealing with the problem of ensuring the reservation and the provision, in due time, of suitable sites for new exchanges.
The Government is informed of the company's expansion programme. The immediate programme, to which the company is committed, involves the investment of almost $200 million in the three years from 1963 to 1965, designed to increase the number of telephones in operation from 178,000 at the end of 1963 (and 145,000 at the end of 1962) to 260,000 at the end of 1965. On 30th April 1964, there were 32,600 waiting applicants. This is a major effort both to catch up with existing demand and to keep up with its very rapid growth.
As regards expansion after 1965, towards the end of 1962 the Company asked the British General Post Office to undertake a special survey, on broad terms of reference, of the technical problems resulting from the rapid rate of expansion of the company's system and to make recommendations for the future. The report was received by the
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company this month and, besides recommendations on various technical aspects, puts forward a programme of expansion up to 1980. Neither the company nor Government has yet had time to study it, but the company will clearly have to review and revise their long term policy in its light. Judgement as to the satisfactoriness of the company's plans should, I think, await this revision.
MR Y. K. KAN: —Thank you, Sir.
MR W. C. G. KNOWLES, pursuant to notice, asked the following questions: —
Sir, firstly, in his Budget Speech on 26th March, my honourable Friend the Colonical Secretary said in regard to my suggestion for a manpower survey to cover the Colony’s needs for all education other than primary: —
“There is a distinct danger here of overlapping with enquiries and assessments already being undertaken . . . . ”
May I ask what are the enquiries and assessments referred to by my honourable Friend, by whom are they being undertaken, and by what date we may expect the conclusions?
Secondly, in the speech to which I referred in my previous question, my honourable Friend also said: —
"On secondary education we have set our sights, for the moment, at providing in Government and Government-aided schools for 15% of the total primary school population."
I should be grateful if I could be informed how this figure of 15% was assessed.
Thirdly, may I be informed whether any enquiries are in train or proposed for an investigation of the Colony's needs for vocational and pre-apprenticeship training and for technical training? If so, by what date are the answers expected; if not, does Government recognize the need for such an assessment and what steps, if any, are being taken to make it?
May I also be informed what facilities, other than the Technical College, exist or are being planned for vocational, pre apprenticeship and technical training, and what steps are being taken to implement any such plans?
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THE COLONIAL SECRETARY replied as follows: —
Sir, these three questions relate to the planning of education beyond the primary level. The first question seeks clarification as to where overlapping might arise between a manpower survey to cover the needs of all education other than primary and enquiries already being made.
The most significant enquiries that I had in mind were those at present being conducted as a follow-up to the Marsh/Sampson report which, as honourable Members are aware, covered our entire educational system in the primary and secondary sphere. This report offers comprehensive advice on our overall needs and on the most economical and practical way of fulfilling them. It is a complex document the outcome of which concerns many interests, not all easily reconcilable with one another. In order that policy may proceed on the most practical and acceptable lines the Report is being given detailed and careful study by a working party broadly representative of educational and Governmental interests. This examination is likely to continue until the autumn and should, I suggest, be completed before instituting further enquiries which could cut across the committee's work.
As to enquiries relating to technical and pre-industrial training, there has been no survey to determine the overall needs of industry, but there has been much work in progress which bears on this question. The Standing Committee on Vocational Training and Technical Education, under the chairmanship of the Commissioner of Labour, and including persons with industrial experience over a wide range as well as representatives of the various Government departments concerned and a trade union representative, has, in conjunction with the Labour Advisory Board, recently completed a review of apprenticeship and made recommendations which are now under study. These include the establishment of an Apprenticeship Board assisted by advisory committees drawn from individual industries, whose function it will be to review apprenticeship needs, standards and other problems within their individual industries. The recommendations of these committees would be co-ordinated by the main Board. It may be possible for the functions of the Board and the Committees to be extended to cover all forms of vocational training.
As an example of a more specific enquiry I should mention that the Labour Department has carried out a pilot
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enquiry in conjunction with representatives of the garment industry into that industry's special vocational training needs and preliminary proposals have been submitted to Government. If this project materializes and succeeds similar enquiries will be made into other industries. I should add that the Labour Department proposes during June to ask industrial employers to give figures of vacancies as well as the number of persons they employ. This should help to indicate the extent of current labour shortage and may help industry and Government in planning for industrial training. The Federation of Hong Kong Industries and the Chinese Manufacturers Association are to be asked to invite their members to co-operate.
To complete the picture I might add that possible overlapping was not the only objection I offered to my honourable Friend's proposal. I also said I considered the task which he envisaged was too great for a single committee.
The second question asks how we arrive at the figure of 15% of primary school places as the criterion for assessing the number of Government and Government aided secondary school places. The figure of 15% was originally given in the 1951 Fisher Report on Education in Hong Kong. Mr FISHER said, "It is generally accepted that 15% of the children with an intelligence quotient of 120 and over are capable of profiting by education in an English Grammar School and a similar figure could be accepted for Hong Kong where secondary education is almost exclusively academic". The statement of Government's policy on the re-organization of primary and secondary education tabled in January 1963 reaffirmed Government's acceptance of the figure of 15% as representing approximately the number of primary school leavers who could be awarded a place in Government or Aided Secondary Schools. This decision was taken in the light of the increasing claims on public funds particularly for expanding primary, secondary, technical and university education.
In practice, however, the facilities for post primary education in Hong Kong are much less restricted than this statement might suggest. For instance, in the current academic year places leading to a School Certificate in Government and Aided Secondary Grammar Schools were offered to 15% of primary school leavers, places in Government and Aided Secondary Technical Schools were offered to 1.9%, and assisted places in Private Secondary Schools to 2.3%, making a total of 19.2%. In addition unsubsidized places
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in Private Secondary Schools accounted for 44.9% of primary school leavers. This makes a total of 64.2% of children leaving primary schools and embarking on secondary courses which could lead to a school certificate. In addition, a further 6.9% were given places in Special Forms I and Secondary Modem Schools for courses not leading to a school certificate, making an overall total of 71.1% of primary school leavers accommodated in secondary schools of one kind or another for varying periods.
My honourable Friend thirdly asked what facilities, other than the Technical College, exist or are planned for technical vocational and pre-apprenticeship training. There are at present 2,486 students in 5 technical schools with courses leading to School Certificate. There are a further 428 students enrolled in similar courses in 3 government secondary modem schools in process of conversion to secondary technical schools. When this conversion is complete there will be a total of 5,300 secondary technical places in 8 schools. There are at present 3,600 secondary modern students in 4 secondary modem schools, three of which, as mentioned, are in process of conversion to secondary technical schools. In addition, 4 subsidized secondary modem schools are under construction or about to be constructed and are not at present scheduled for conversion. This will give a total of 7,200 places in 5 secondary modem schools. The following 20 schools offer courses not leading to School Certificate: 6 technical schools with an enrolment of 900; 10 accountancy schools with an enrolment of 920; 4 vocational schools with an enrolment of 628, to which must be added 1 vocational school leading to School Certificate with an enrolment of 340 pupils. The total enrolment for these 21 schools is 2,788. Three classes of pre-apprenticeship training are due to start at the Technical College in September 1964 as a pilot scheme. Finally, proposals for a Technical Institute to provide technician, craft and vocational training courses are under consideration for the next financial year in order to provide an increased supply of trained manpower for the technical needs of the community.
MR W. C. G. KNOWLES: —Sir, may I ask a supplementary question? My honourable Friend referred to the Apprenticeship Committee which was appointed in conjunction with the Labour Advisory Board. May I ask whether the terms of reference included the needs of industry for apprentices as well as the terms on which the apprentices should be engaged?
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THE COLONIAL SECRETARY: —I am not able to say precisely what the terms of reference were.
MR W. C. G. KNOWLES: —Sir, may I ask a further supplementary question? In reply to my queries as to the basis for the 15% secondary as related to primary education, I understood my honourable Friend—if I understood him correctly— to say that the figure was related to the capability of primary school students to benefit from secondary education. May I ask, Sir, whether any attempt has seen made to assess the needs of the Colony for people with a secondary education as apart from the capability of primary educated students?
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY: —No, Sir, not specifically in that sense.
PUBLIC HEALTH AND URBAN SERVICES ORDINANCE, 1960 MR K. S. KINGHORN moved the following resolution: —
Resolved, pursuant to section 144 of the Public Health and Urban Services Ordinance, 1960, that the Pleasure Grounds (Amendment) By-laws, 1964, made by the Urban Council on the 5th day of May, 1964, under section 109 of that Ordinance, be approved.
He said: These By-laws, Sir, which were made by the Urban Council on 5th May, prescribe the fees payable for admission to and the use of the various games facilities provided in public pleasure grounds in the urban areas. There is provision in them for a reduction of fees in the case of organized parties of school children.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded.
The question was put and agreed to.
LEGAL PRACTITIONERS BILL, 1964
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the Second reading of a Bill intituled "An Ordinance to make amended provision for the admission and registration of legal practitioners and their employees, and of notaries public, and for purposes connected therewith."
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded.
The question was put and agreed to.
The Bill was read a Second time.
Council then went into Committee to consider the Bill clause by clause. Clauses 1 to 29 were agreed to.
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THE ATTORNEY GENEARL: —Sir, I rise to move that Clause 30 be amended as set forth in the paper before honourable Members.
Proposed Amendment.
30 In the proviso to sub-clause (1) —
(a) in paragraph (a), insert, at the end thereof, the following— "and";
(b) in paragraph (b), leave out the semi-colon and word “; and” and substitute therefor a full stop; and
(c) leave out paragraph (c).
Clause 30, as amended, was agreed to.
Clauses 31 to 76 were agreed to.
Council then resumed.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL reported that the Legal Practitioners Bill, 1964, had passed through Committee with one amendment, and moved the Third reading.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded.
The question was put and agreed to.
The Bill was read a Third time and passed into law.
COMMUNITY RELIEF TRUST FUND (TRANSFER AND VESTING) BILL, 1964
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the Second reading of a Bill intituled "An Ordinance to make provision for the transfer to and vesting in the Director of Social Welfare Incorporated as trustee of the Community Relief Trust Fund established under the Community Relief Trust Fund Ordinance, 1962."
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded.
The question was put and agreed to.
The Bill was read a Second time.
Council then went into Committee to consider the Bill clause by clause. Clauses 1 and 2 and the Preamble were agreed to.
Council then resumed.
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THE ATTORNEY GENERAL reported that the Community Relief Trust Fund (Transfer and Vesting) Bill, 1964, had passed through Committee without amendment and moved the Third reading.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded.
The question was put and agreed to.
The Bill was read a Third time and passed into law.
ADJOURNMENT
HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR: —That concludes the business for today, gentlemen. When is it your pleasure that we should meet again?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: -May I suggest, Sir, this day two weeks.
HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR: —Council stands adjourned until this day two weeks.
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