1890-12-11 — Page 1

FINANCE COMMITTEE.

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11TH DECEMBER, 1890.

stamp might be got out, and then we could effect a

A meeting of the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council was held on the 11th December. There were present:—Hon W. M. Deane, Acting Colonial Secretary, Chairman; Hon. E. J. Ackroyd, Acting Attorney-General; Hon. H. E. Wodehouse. Acting Colonial Treasurer; Hon. S. Brown, Surveyor General; Hon. N. G. Mitchell-Innes, Acting Registrar

General, Hon. P. Ryrie, Hon. C. P. Chater, Hon. J. J. Keswick, Hon. Ho Kai, Hon. T. H. Whitehead, and Mr. F. A. Hazeland, Acting Clerk of Councils.

REDUCTION OF POSTAL RATES.

The CHAIRMAN—Gentlemen, before we come to the main purpose for which we are met this afternoon I have to inform the hon. members of this committee, with reference to the question of reduction of postage that was brought before the Finance Committee some six weeks ago. that a telegram has this morning been received from the Secretary of State, in which he says:—"Reduced Postal rate generally approved. Commencement here 1st January. Strongly recommended similar arrangements homeward mail nearly as possible at same time. Telegraph reply." It will be remembered that we referred this matter to the Chamber of Commerce. The papers were sent to the Chamber of Commerce on the 4th November, but we have received no answer yet. This is a very pressing matter and in order to put it into order I will as a matter of form move that the sum of $5,000 be voted to allow this Colony to meet the expense incurred by the reduction of postage. I have given instructions that copies of the papers formerly brought before your notice should be put before you again, as although you will probably remember the general principles you may not be cognisant of the details. From the report of the Acting Assistant Postmaster-General, Mr. Sercombe-Smith, it appears that if instead of a ten cent rate we adopted a five cent rate there would be a decided loss to the colony. (The hon. gentleman read paragraph 12 of the report referred to.) The matter has been sprung upon as very suddenly by this telegram and I would throw it out as a matter of consideration for the Council as to whether we could not agree to the postage next year being made seven cents, as unfortunately we have at present no one cent stamp and no six cent stamp. To make it five cents would mean a dead loss and that sum is by no means the equivalent of the 2½d. that represents the outward postage. If six cents be decided upon as the ultimate charge the die for the stamps will have to be made in England which will take some time, and therefore I think that for possibly six months we might rednce the postage to seven cents the half-ounce, by which time the six cent

farther reduction if necessary. I am very sorry indeed to have had to bring this matter so suddenly before you, but as you see I am simply speaking in consequence of a telegram received this morning, and I am not in a position to tell you the opinion of the Chamber of Commerce, for unfortunately they have not replied to my letter of the 4th November Therefore in order to bring the matter up for discussion I move that the sum of $5,000 be entered on the estimates for next year to meet the probable cost of a reduction of postage.

Hon. O. P. CHATER—I should like to know what the loss would be supposing we were to reduce the rate to seven cents.

The CHAIRMAN—With exchange at 3s. seven cents is equivalent to 2.52d.; at 3s. 2d., 2.62d; at 3s, 4d., 2.81d.; at 3s. 6d., 2.94d.; at 3s. 7d., 3.08d. (The hon. gentleman then read further extracts from the report of the Assistant Postmaster-General.) This is one of those problems it is impossible to solve, because I suppose my hon, friend on the right (Hon. T. H. Whitehead) will agree with me that if any one knew what the rate of exchange was going to be for the coming year matters would be very simple indeed, but as it is we have simply to calculate chances and strike an average, and therefore taking exchange at 3s. 7d., if we reduce the rate of postage from ten cents to seven cents the public will obtain a substantial gain and the colony will certainly not sust in a loss exceeding $5,000, supposing exchange does not take an extraordinary fall.

Hon. C. P. CHATER—How do you arrive at the conclusion you will have to provide $5,000? The CHAIRMAN—It is to provide against a possible loss. I think I will ask you to agree to my motion now, and in the next three days, before the matter comes before the Legislative Council, you will have time to study these papers and fully consider the matter It is a matter that really concerns the Chamber of Commerce and the unofficial members of Council much more than the Government, and in the meantime, before the matter comes before the Council, you will have an opportunity of forming your views and expressing them. Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—There is a meeting of the committee of the Chamber of Commerce to-morrow afternoon, when the subject will doubtless be brought up. The CHAIRMAN—I am anxious to put matters into form. I therefore make this motion, and if you agree to it, it will brought up on Monday for confirmation by the Legislative council. and hon. members will then be able to express their opinion and to assent or not to the reduction.

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL In this

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report of the Acting Postmaster-General, I find that in paragragh 5 and all the other paragraphs he calculates the loss but he does not say what is the basis of his calculation, but when you come to the very last paragraph. 17, by English mail, he says Hongkong pays to Egypt 22d., Italy 53d., France 67d., and United Kingdom 1.67d., total 3.09d. on each half-ounce letter. I suppose he has taken that 3.09d. as the basis of the cost. Of that you see the United Kingdom gets 1.67d. If the postage is to be reduced is the share of the United Kingdom to remain the same and are we to pay Italy and France the same?

The CHAIRMAN—All these matters can be looked into in the interim, but as I before ob-served, I am simply addressing the committee on a telegram received this morning, which is of a most urgent character, because they state that in England they start with the mail leaving on the 1st January and they desire us if possible to approve of a reduced rate of postage and to let that take effect with the corresponding mail from here. On the whole I think I will invite the committee to agree to my motion, because it leaves the hon. members entirely free to oppose it when it comes before the Le islative Council for confirmation if on consideration of the whole facts and on consideration of the reply of the Chamber of Commerce they think it necessary to do so.

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL—Will this be in addition to the $30,000 refund of postage to England, Italy, France, and other countries and the $32,000 for the colony's share of the expenses of the postal convention?

The CHAIRMAN—That is on one side of the account. Against that we have receipts from the sale of postage stamps, but we are obliged to put it down in this way. This would be a loss, and therefore it would be an addition.

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL —This $5,000 would be an actual loss?

The CHAIRMAN—No; it is to cover a possible loss, because whether there will be a loss or not depends upon exchange, and no member of Council would take upon himself to say what the rate of exchange for the next year would be.

Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—What necessity is there for the Finance Committee voting this sum to-day? The CHAIRMAN—The telegram I read.

Hon T.H.WHITEHEAD—But what necessity is there? The CHAIRMAN—To bring the matter forward to be confirmed in Council. What is voted in Finance Committee is not binding on the Council.

Hon. T.H.WHITEHEAD—I hardly see the necessity of voting this sum to-day.

The CHAIRMAN—The difference is this, that unless we agree to it to day, after the meeting of the Legislative Council on Monday. when it will be brought forward, it would have to be referred to the F i n a n c e C o m m i t t e e ; b u t a s I

have brought it before the Finance Committee to-day I should be justified in moving that instead of being referred to the Finance Committee it be dealt with by the Legislative Council itself.

Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—As there is every prospect of the Government having the views of the Chamber of Commerce before them on Saturday morning, I think it would be better to postpone our decision.

The CHAIRMAN—We cannot decide; it is for the Legislative Council to decide. I am perfectly willing to withdraw the motion now, having obtained the discussion and put hon members on the qui vive as to what is going to take place next Monday. The only difference is that we shall simply proceed to consider the matter in Council next Monday instead of referring it to the Finance Committee. I now withdraw the motion, but I would ask members to be perfectly prepared by next Monday, when the matter will come up for settlement.

THE SLAUGHTER-HOUSE.

The CHAIRMAN—We now come to public works extraordinary. Three items were left over for further consideration, Nos. 11, 13, and 14. No. 11 is slaughter-house and sheep and pig depots, estimated cost $90,000, and it is proposed to spend $60,000 next year. The question is whether this $60,000 shall be passed or not.

Hon. C. P. CHATER—I see in 18 9 we voted for the slaughter-house $3,000, for the extension of the cattle market $14,000, and for the sheep and pig market $25,000.

The CHAIRMAN—Perhaps you would like to go back a little earlier. In 1887 there was voted for the extension of the cattle market $10,000 and in 1888 the same.

Hon. C. P. CHATER I should like to have some explanation.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—In the estimates for 1889 there was $35,000 for the slaughterhouse and $25,000 for the sheep and pig depot, making a total of $60,000. The present item is $30,000. The amounts placed in the estimates for 1889 were simply the amounts to be expended in that year. At that time no detailed plans had been prepared. Since that period the matter has been very carefully gone into and detailed estimates have been prepared, and the amount of $90,000 is the result of those estimates.

Hon. C.P.CHATER—Then what we were called upon to vote in 1889 was only approximate amounts. The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes.

Hon. C.P.CHATER—Or sheer guess work. The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—At that time no site had been determined on, so the amounts could only be approximate.

Hon. P. RYRIE—That money has not been spent. The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—No. The works are now proceeding and a small amount has been spent. T h e a m o u n t o f a c c o m m o d a t i o n

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Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—Will $90,000 be the total cost?

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes, that is the estimated total cost, which I have every reason to believe will not be exceeded.

The question was then put and the vote was passed nem. con.

PUBLIC LAUNDRIES.

The next vote considered was that for public laundries, estimated total cost $25,000, estimated expenditure 1891. $12,500.

Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—Has it been decided to spend this $12,500? Have plans been prepared and estimates arrived at?

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes. A committee or the Sanitary Board sat for some time with reference to this matter, and the question is rather an urgent one, because owing to the training of the Albany Nullah and branch nullahs above Kennedy Road, the wasbermen in that locality will very soon be turned out by force of circumstances, that is to say the nullahs where they now wash their clothes will be trained in masonry channels and will no longer be available for that purpose. It is rather a pressing question what is to be done with the people when they are turned out from there, and it was thought advisable if possible to erect some laundries at Wanchai with a view of providing accommodation for these particular men who now wash above Kennedy Road. The committee recommended that an experimental block of ten laundries including quarters for the coolies who carry on the work, should be erected at an estimated cost of $25,000. It was thought that amount would rather more than cover the cost of this establishment at Wanchai.

The COLONIAL TREASURER—Experimental, is it? The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—In this way, that nothing of the kind has been done before, and it would be advisable to see how the laundries work before we go to any additional expense. If they work well the idea is that all the washing of the colony should be done in these places instead of in the nullahs as at present. Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—Have the Chinese been approached with a view of ascertaining whether they would be willing to fall in with the idea?

The ACTING REGISTRAR-GENERAL—Yes, I have had the washermen before me, and the only fear they seem to have is whether some would be allowed to iron in their own houses as at present and others be sent to the outskirts. They appear to think they might be subjected to unfair competition. The idea of the Sanitary Board was to got them all into these places, and I believe it was stated in the committee that if the experiment did not succeed there would be no loss because the houses would be a valuable property.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes, the houses to be erected would be valuable as Chinese residences,

not the washing houses but the quarters for the coolies. The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER—Would the work be remunerative?

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes. It was not thought advisable that a high charge should be made, as that would cause opposition, but the idea was to let them have them at something like 10 per cent, which would cover the cost of maintenance and interest.

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL—If you charge a high rent they will put it on the washing.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes; it was thought advisable to make the charge as low as possible, just sufficient that the Government should not lose by the outlay.

The CHAIRMAN—There bill-side washermen must be driven from where they now are within a very short time, and the question is, where are they to go to? Are they to wash the dirty clothes in their own houses with every change of spreading infection, or are proper laundries to be established under the control of the Sanitary Board?

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes, that is the question, and as regards the nullahs above Kennedy Road it is a question of two or three months.

Hon. C. P. CHATER—But you cannot have the laundries ready in two or three months.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—I suppose we shall have to be a little lenient with them and not displace them hastily.

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL—Some have already been displaced. Those near the tramway have all been removed.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Then I suppose they have gone into the next nullah or up stream. Hon. C.P.CHATER—If the Chinese can carry on their avocations in the manner they do now they will not go to the laundries, but if the Government stop them carrying on their avocations in the manner they do and compel them to use the laundries, no doubt the laundries would pay and pay well.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—As regards washing in the streams there is no doubt the Government have power to prevent it for sanitary reasons, As regards the ironing, it would be difficult to prevent them ironing where they chose.

The CHAIRMAN—But you have power to make by-laws.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes, and the idea of the Sanitary Board was that it will not be very easy to move in the matter unless some sort of compulsion is used.

Hon. C. P. CHATER—Then the question is, if you do that, whether the $25,000 will suffice.

The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL—This is only for a trial.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—The number of washermen in the whole of the city, according to Mr. McCallum, is something like sixty, and they employ t w o o r t h r e e m e n e a c h , s o t h e r e i s a

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total of something like 150. These new laundries would afford accommodation for sixty, so that we would require ultimately nearly three times as much accommodation.

The CHAIRMAN—But if the first succeeds you can put up the rest.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes; if it pays the Government it does not much matter whether the $25,000 or a large sum be spent. But the matter has been gone into very carefully, and it is thought that if these places are put up the Government can afford to let the laundrymen have the establishments at a much lower rate than they are paying for their present quarters, and that therefore there would be an inducement to them to move into the new laundries.

Hon. C. P. CHATER—And yet it would pay the Government?

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes, because the laundries would be put up where land is not of much value.

The vote was passed nem. con.

PUBLIC LATRINES

The next vote was one for public latrines, estimated total cost $17,000, estimated expenditure to 31st December, 1890, $7,000; estimated expenditure 1891, $10,000.

Hon. HO KAI moved to omit the vote. He argued that it would be better to leave it to private persons to establish public latrines, making a small charge for their use.

Hon. J. J. KESWICK seconded.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL said that this was also a matter that had been recommended by the Sanitary Board. It was considered there was a class of the population who were unable to afford even a small fee for the accommodation. And although not directly remunerative the work was so indirectly because the contractor who removed the soil paid a considerable sum for it. There was a vote on the estimates last year; some iron work had been got out from home, and without further expenditure part of the amount already expended would be wasted. If hon. members would visit the villages, and also some of the back streets and lanes in the city, they would see that latrines were not only desirable but a necessity from a sanitary point of view. There was a special committee appointed some time ago of which Mr. Chadwick and himself were members and they were strongly in favour of the erection of free latrines; in fact this formed a special branch of the work which Mr. Chadwick considered necessary for the improvement of the health of the colony.

A long discussion ensued.

On the CHAIRMAN putting the question to the vote. Hon. HO KAI said he would withdraw his amendment if the expenditure had already been incurred as in that case the amendment was useless.

The CHAIRMAN read the rule to the effect

that after the question was put no further discussion could be allowed.

Hon. HO KAI said he thought he was entitled to give an explanation.

The CHAIRMAN—I must ask you either to withdraw your motion or not.

Hon. HO KAI—I withdraw if the money has been already spent.

The CHAIRMAN—The question is that $10,000 be expended during next year. To that an amendment has been moved that $10,000 be not expended next year.

The LERK then called the roll for the vote on the amendment that the vote be expunged, and the division was as follows—

FOR. AGAINST.

Hon. Ho Kai Hon. T. H. Whitehead Hon. J. J. Keswick The Acting Registrar-General Hon. C. P. Chater The Surveyor-General Hon. P. Ryrie The Act. Colonial Treasurer The Acting Attorney-General

The amendment was therefore lost and the vote was passed.

THE CIVIL HOSPITAL.

The first vote in connection with this was for the Staff Quarters. Estimated total cost $66,000; amount expended to 30th June, 1890, $24,377; estimated expenditure to 31st December 1890, $39,377; estimated expenditure 1891, $26,623.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—There are quarters for the nursing staff, the assistant surgeon, the apothecary, and some others connected with the hospital. The foundations were completed before my arrival, and as the plans were prepared and the buildings now in progress we have very little choice left in the matter. In the course of last year contracts were entered into, and the buildings are now so far advanced that before the rainy season they will be roofed in. I hope. The amount set down in the estimates is required to meet liabilities under existing contracts.

Hon. P. RYRIE—It seems an enormous sum, $66,000, for a house for the nursing staff. You might build a barrack for a regiment for that.

Hon. J. J. KESWICK—You might build the Civil Hospital itself for that, at any rate.

The CHAIRMAN—Some explanation is due to the committee on this point. The original estimate was only $43,000 and now it is $66,000.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—In what year was the estimate for $43,000 made?

The CHAIRMAN—In 1889.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—I expect that was the amount estimated as required for that year.

The CHAIRMAN—No, the amount estimated for 1889 was $30,000 and the original total estimated cost $43,000. The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—I have never seen that original estimate.

The CHAIRMAN—Is it your opinion that the work can be completed for the sum now asked for and that no further call will possibly be made?

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes, contracts

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have been entered into to complete the work for the

The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER—It is a long

amount mentioned in the estimates.

Hon. C. P. CHATER—These estimates would never vary if all the contracts were let in the same way. It is a much better plan always to let your contracts for a lump sum. You then know exactly where you are whereas in other methods you go on from year to year, and by the time the work is finished the estimate is more than doubled. At least that has been our experience in the past, although we hope it will not be in the future under the present incumbent of the office. As I said before the best plan is to let the contracts for lump sums, as is done by nearly every one in the colony.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—I think all the Government contracts are let in that way.

Hon. C.P.CHATER—I understood from the Surveyor General on the last occasion quite the reverse. He said in his experience he had never known work done in that way. The contracts were always let according to measurement and not for a fixed sum.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—I think there has been some misunderstanding with respect to what I said. The measurements are made simply for making monthly payments for the work completed as it goes on.

Hon. P. RYRIE—I understood you myself to say that it was impossible to let a contract for a lump sum for foundations because you never knew what you might come upon. You might find easy or you might find difficult ground.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—That is so. If alterations are made and the plans departed from, not only in the case of Government but in all contracts, the contractor has to be paid for extra work.

Hon. C.P.CHATER—How much was the contract for the foundations?

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—I think it is mentioned in my report, $12,800.

Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—Does that include the retaining walls?

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—Yes, everything up to the basement.

Hon. T.H.WHITEHEAD—How many rooms are there in the building? I don't want to know the number of doors or of panes of glass, but I should like to know the number of rooms.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—I cannot say offhand. There will be a good many; hon members if they go about the colony must have seen the building.

Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—Where do the staff reside now?

The CHAIRMAN—The nurses are lodged at present in what ought to be the Lock Hospital.

Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—I understand the Hospital requires enlarging. If that is so, instead of retaining this palace, costing $66,000, for a house for the staff. I think it would be a very good thing to convert it into a wing of the hospital.

distance from the hospital.

The CHAIRMAN—Is there anything in the construction of this building to prevent its being used as a hospital with private wards instead of officers' quarters?

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—It might be utilised for that if not required as a residence for the hospital staff. A portion of it might be adapted as a hospital for private paying patients.

Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—It seem to me that an expenditure of $66,000 for a residence for the hospital staff is wanton and reckless extravagance.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—I have already expressed my opinion on the subject in my printed report. It is being built on a larger scale than is perhaps necessary, but there it is, nearly completed.

Hon. HO KAI—May I enquire if this vote was brought forward last year?

The CHAIRMAN—Yes, and also in 1889. The original estimate was $43,000, the revised estimate $75,000; estimate for 1889 $30,000, estimate for 1890 $60,000.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—The $60,000 was for the building and there was $12,000 for the foundations, making $72,000 in all, but after going carefully into the matter I reduced it to $66,000. I think I may say that estimate is sufficient, because contracts have been entered into by which the contractor undertakes to complete the building for that lump sum.

Hon. T. H.WHITEHEAD—I think if a feasible one the suggestion I have thrown out is well worthy of consideration, that this palace when finished shall be converted into a wing of the Hospital.

The SURVEYOR-GENERAL—You must have some accommodation for the nurses.

Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—Yes, but this is an extravagant price to pay for it.

The CHAIRMAN—It is a rather long way from the Hospital, but I should say it is quite possible that in the end it will be utilised for private paying patients, but that of course is beside the present question. The question now is whether we shall vote the money for this particular purpose, and I am afraid we are tied by the acts of our predecessors.

The vote was agreed to.

A vote for Coolie Quarters, estimated cost $7,000; estimated expenditure 1891, $3,200; and a vote of $7,131 for alterations and additions to the Hospital were agreed to. LUNATIC ASYLUM FOR CHINESE.

The next vote was for a lunatic asylum for Chinese; estimated cost, $20,000; estimated expenditure to the 31st December 1890, $12,800; estimated expenditure 1891, $7,200.

The CHAIRMAN—With reference to this vote, I can only say that hon. members will doubtless recollect the late member, Hon. A. P. MacEwen, bringing before the notice of the Government in a most e m p h a t i c w a y t h e w a n t o f p r o p e r

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