THE HONGKONG GOVERNMENT GAZETTE, 16TH NOVEMBER, 1878. 541
the other cases there were two men who were recommended for deportation, and one was a man who was in prison for utter- ing counterfeit coin, the other for larceny. They were recommended to me to be deported, and the ground was that the men were in very bad health. [His Excellency went on to read the minutes on the cases and the medical reports called for on the health of the prisoners, from which it appeared they had only a few weeks to serve and that they were not likely to live out their term. He did not deport the men, but recommended them to the Tung Wah Hospital, where he believed they died.] His Excellency proceeded-I have given you then the three cases in which I declined deportation, and I think you will all agree with the action I took in regard to them. LEE LUM KWAI is still in prison. As regards the other two, the prisoners were not of that desperate class that it is desirable to get rid of.. On the subject of deportation itself I think there is not a second opinion in the Ccanci; indeed, if we could deport every prisoner that would be a solution of the whole question, but it really comes to this, and I think the Acting Chief Justice touched upon it to-day, what do you do with a man when he comes back? Let us now select from the 530 prisoners in Gaol at this moment a couple of hundred of the worst offenders and deport them; the problem is, what are you to do with them when they come back? Well, the Acting Chief Justice says they must be punished with severity when they come back, and another of my Honourable friends would like to have them flogged on their return. Well, the Council is aware the flogging of the deported prisoners on return was tried, but had to be discontinued. In fact when it was discovered, when Sir JOHN SMALE and Sir JULIAN PAUNCEFOTE drew attention to the fact that this illegal punishment had been going on, a despatch was prepared in which the Governor, Sir RICHARD MACDONNELL, sought for that power, but it was refused. The Government would not consent that a man returning from deportation should be flogged for that offence alone. If on his return he commits another offence he may be sentenced by the Magistrate or the Supreme Court, but you must make up your minds that the Government will not consent to a man being flogged simply for returning from deportation. My Honourable friend the Colonial Secretary has told us it is not usual to apply deportation unless the man has a second or third offence. [His Excellency went on to refer to a case which occurred the other day which the most experienced member of the Executive Council did not think was a case for deportation, but it so happened the three other members differed with his Honourable friend, and although he (the Governor) quite agreed with the Colonial Secretary's view of the matter he acted on the view of the majority who thought it was.] His Excellency concluded. It is well for you if you have to take into consideration the question of Gaol expense to take into consideration also these things. It requires a knowledge of all these things to enable you or to enable me to arrive at a safe conclusion on this general question. However, gentlemen, if it is convenient for you next Thursday I think we might perhaps go into this question, and I shall possibly put before you the result of the Commission I refer to, Dr. WELLS and Dr. O'BRIEN.
It having been suggested that Thursday would be an inconvenient day to meet, Monday was suggested by His Excellency.
Honourable H. LowCOCK.-This is such a broad question, your Excellency, that it cannot be dealt with and settled before the Estimates are passed. There is no doubt the separate system will meet the views of the whole community, but with reference to the enlargement of the Gaol or its removal, that embraces so many questions that of course it would be impossible to settle it for se time. Therefore, I think the discussion on that might be postponed until after the passing of the Estimates, unless vish it continued for some particular reason.
His Excellency.—I don; at all contemplate making this part of the Estimates, but at the same time I should really like to have the members of the Council express in as reasonable a time as possible their views on this question. Of course Honourable members are acquainted with the fact that I entered on this subject soon after my arrival, and I should like to have the views of Honourable members upon it. I shall be glad to afford you whatever further information you would like to obtain, and if it occurs to you between this and Monday that there is any further information you would like, I will see that any further despatch or anything you like to ask for shall be laid before you.
Honourable W. KESWICK.-In considering the number of prisoners we have to provide for I would suggest that we should
go back to the year 1860 and get a return of the number of prisoners who have been in Gaol, the number who have been released before the term of their sentences expired, and what number have been deported. Statistics are important; let us have them in order that we may judge whether we have to look forward to an unlimited extension of Gaol accommodation to keep down the criminal class; and, as I mentioned earlier in the discussion, I understand last year it was decided that the separate system was to be tried in the Gaol, and if my recollection serves me right there was a vote for that purpose.
Honourable H. Lowcock.-$10,000.
Honourable W. KESWICK.-I should like to know if there is any data on which we can form an opinion of the effect of the system.
His EXCELLENCY.-There is no data on that precise point. Mr. PRICE has built a few cells, but the number is insufficient to furnish data, and you know what Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH said. I had to take the responsibility of deciding whether we would go on with the cells we were making. I decided that we would go on. The result, however, up to this time we have in fact not had any opportunity of testing.
The ACTING CHIEF JUSTICE.-May I ask if any estimate has been formed of the value of the present Gaol site? His EXCELLENCY.-Mr. PRICE has formed an estimate, but unfortunately I have not got the figures with me now. It is a very valuable site.
Honourable W. KESWICK.-I must remark I don't see very clearly the object of the discussion.
His EXCELLENCY.-I have no hesitation in answering my honourable friend very frankly. If we meet next Monday every member will express his opinion, I hope. I have already heard a great deal of sound advice and the more I hear the better. I think it better to do all this before, because otherwise what course am I to take? Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH asks me for my opinion after consulting with Mr. PRICE. Suppose I write in answer to this dispatch "I have, in accordance with your instructions, consulted Mr. PRICE" and proceed to express an opinion; my opinion, if it is worth anything, will, I think, be much more valuable if we have a complete discussion on the subject.
may
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Honourable V. KESWICK.-We cannot properly discuss this subject unless we know the probable cost. We quite agree it would be a very nice thing to have a Gaol out of town, and various other things which are quite impracticable; but what we have to consider, in my view, is that the criminal class is a certainty. Are we as practical men, with money
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