a comment because she has a much better grasp of it than, I think, any of the rest of the delegation.
Ms Thwaites: On that issue, just before I went to Urumqi, I went to the former Soviet Union Central Asian countries like Kazakhistan, Uzbekistan, Kabakistan, and I also interview and talked to Uighurs who are close to one million who pass from Xinjiang to those Republics, and there is open trade, yes, and the open trade is helping people, I think both sides, but sensitivity, as you say, is very much so.
And on our trip, I was followed every minute. Only twice could I escape from my minder to be able to talk to local people and I understand there's great concern about population transfers. But the Chinese officially denied that, they say they have a floating population but they don't bring Han. But local people are concerned, for example, in 1949 they had around five percent Ran population in Xinjiang, now it's around 40 percent Han population in Xinjiang. And about the personal freedoms, autonomy, in that sense they have informed us that 22 percent of leadership positions in Xinjiang should be given to local minorities or as they
S
are called, but in reality in Urumqi where we looked, at least that institution, and each level they had Han a majority a minority including Kazakhs, the Uzbeks and the others are a minority. For example, if that institution have 5 positions, 3 is Han, 2 is minorities. Or if there's 7, 4 is Han, 3 is minorities. In that case minorities will not express their will and the Han is totally controlling the majority nationality in Xinjiang.
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Senator Schacht: One thing I should say I've said this in a briefing of Australian journalists yesterday compared with Tibet, Xinjiang Province is better. For example we didn't notice anywhere near the military presence in the province that was so obvious in Tibet last year when we visited. Now that's not to say the same military aren't there, they are just not on the streets in the pervasive presence that they are on the streets of Lhasa we saw last year. But we also received informal information that only two weeks ago there was an incident and a clash between the authorities in Xinjiang and some Uighur people who had access to arms, and this is known and commented on once you get a chance to speak separately without minders around you.
Question: That was the only instance you heard of a clash of that sort or these are quite regular?
Senator Schacht: As we've just said, it was admitted about the famous Baren incident which has been given international coverage. Informally, the delegation found, away from official meetings, that yes that was known in Xian but there are consistent clashes taking place and that one only took place two weeks ago.
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