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22 MAY 1985
myself met the Indian Prime Minister in Moscow. As has been said, the Prime Minister herself visited New Delhi not many weeks ago. So, too, have my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport and my right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development. Several other ministerial visits to India are planned in the fairly near future. As I have said, Mr. Gandhi has accepted an invitiation in principle to vist the United Kingdom this year. What my hon. Friend says underlines the point that he will be warmly welcomed by the British people when he comes.
South Africa (Detentions)
4. Mr. Sedgemore asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he is making to the South African authorities over the detention order under section 29 of the Internal Security Act of officials of the United Democratic Front.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind): We have consistently condemned the practice of detention without trial and have made our position clear to the South African authorities on many occasions. We have expressed our concern about the recent detention of the United Democratic Front officials to the South African Government.
Mr. Sedgemore: Does the Minister agree that it is ludicrous for the South African ambassador to seek to argue that the judiciary for this issue in that country is acting independently of the wishes of the Government?
Mr. Rifkind: The South African judiciary has, on several occasions, acquitted people who have been charged with treason or other politically related offences. Therefore, it would be wrong to suggest that the South African judiciary does not have considerable indepen- dence. We hope that anyone who is brought before the South African courts will be considered by the South African judiciary on the basis of the evidence that is presented.
Mr. Winnick: Is the Minister aware of the renewed concern in this country and elsewhere at the number of people held in detention in South Africa and the deaths of some of them in very suspicious circumstances? How long will it be before the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary speak out in forthright terms against the racial tyranny in South Africa and make people there recognise that this county is no aily of that regime and that the community in this country condemns the practices which take place in South Africa?
Mr. Rifkind: As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary have both made clear their abhorrence of the apartheid system on many occasions, I see no need for any change of policy of the kind suggested by the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Bill Walker: Does my hon. Friend agree that the judiciary in South Africa has to operate, as all judiciaries should, within the law of the land and that that is exactly what is happening?
Mr. Rifkind: My hon. Friend is correct, but at the same time we must make clear our own view that a system of detention without trial precludes those so detained from appearing in court and establishing whether they are rightly in custody.
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Mr. Foulkes: Is not this yet another example of the South African Government's legal tyranny persecuting leaders of black opinion who are committed to non- violence? Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that underlines the failure of the so-called constructive engagement and how little has really changed in that appalling country? Will the Government now start to isolate South Africa economically before we have to do so, following lamely after the Americans?
Mr. Rifkind: There have been a number of important reforms in South Africa which we have welcomed and which have been rightly welcomed by the international community, including the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) when he wound up the last foreign affairs debate for the Opposition. Nevertheless, if the South African Government are serious about wanting a policy of dialogue with genuie representatives of black opinion in that country, it is difficult to understand why they continue to charge and to detain without trial leading members of the United Democratic Front. I entirely reject the suggestion that a policy of economic sanctions would make any helpful contribution to achieving the objectives that the hon. Gentleman seeks.
Hong Kong (Refugees)
5. Mr. Ashdown asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many refugees are currently being held in the closed camps in Hong Kong; how many were moved out of the camps in the last month for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Richard Luce): At 9 May there were 5,646 Vietnamese refugees in closed centres in Hong Kong. During April 277 refugees were resettled from Hong Kong, of whom 142 were from closed centres and 135 from open centres.
The closed camps are a matter of great concern to the British Government and to the Government of Hong Kong and neither Government wish to maintain them longer than is absolutely necessary. We are urgently considering the recommendations of the Sub-Committee on Race Relations and Immigration and will give our response to the House as soon as possible.
Mr. Ashdown: Does the Minister agree that those figures show that the population of the camps has remained substantially the same for six consecutive years and that at the present level of take-up the camps will still exist in 10 years' time? Is he aware that many of us regard conditions in those camps as a disgrace for which he and the Government are responsible? Will he explain why in 1984 Britain took fewer refugees than any other participating nation-one twentieth of the number taken by the United States, one twelfth of the number taken by Australia and a quarter of the number taken by Canada? Does he agree that that is utterly inadequate?
Mr. Luce: To describe conditions in the closed camps or, indeed, the camps generally as a disgrace is absolutely unwarranted and unfair. Mr. Hartling who has recently in Hong Kong stated publicly that in his view the Hong Kong Government were treating the refugees well. That should be stated clearly in this House, too. Of course, we do not wish closed camps to be retained any longer than necessary, bu. Lie House should note that in the past 10
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