1093
[Mr. George]
Dependent Territories
15 APRIL 1983
of the cost is now borne by the Hong Kong Government, SO the economic argument is not overwhelming. The Committee stated:
"There is therefore no financial imperative for any reduction of British defence commitments in Hong Kong in the medium- term, and we trust that no such reduction will be contemplated." I do not wish to argue about democratic rights in Hong Kong. I leave that to others who are more competent, but I am aware that it is hardly a model democratic system. However, there is no superabundance of liberal democracies in that area. I hope that there will be some liberalisation in Hong Kong and that those who respond in a knee-jerk fashion to the remnants of colonialism should recognise that, although it is an imperial anachronism, it will be worked out during the next 12 or 13 years.
The garrison in Hong Kong is not a defence force, and anyone who believes that a force of fewer than 10,000 can defend the island against the Red Army is sadly mistaken. The forces are there for border control and internal security, not to repel aggessors. The report highlights our worry about the local overseas allowance, the difficulties faced by service men and their families in paying for air conditioning, which is essential in Hong Kong, and the great discontent among soldiers and their families about the difficulties of transport-
Mr. Onslow: I am sure that the House will value this report from the Committee, which has done an excellent job, but if the hon. Gentleman is asking me to comment on anything that he says on the subject, he is taking up time that could be put to better use. I can say nothing about his remarks.
Mr. George: The Minister has introduced the novel concept that speeches are directly related to the responses that they may elicit from Ministers. I wished to bring to the attention of the House the fact that this is an important report. Whether the Minister replies now or in three months' time, a reply will be necessary. We should talk not only about the strategic interests of Hong Kong but about the interests of British service men who work, paradoxically, in adverse circumstances.
On page 7 of the evidence given by the Minister of Defence we see the salary scale for Gurkhas in Hong Kong. The salary of a single private is £74.76 a month. We know that the pay rates are determined by agreements with Nepal and Burma that we do not pay our Gurkhas more than they pay their soldiers. We try to compensate them with many devices, including paid accommodation. However, I must plead on behalf of thousands of loyal soldiers in the Gurkha regiments. We cannot tolerate the fact that those men are paid a pittance for their labours. The argument is that if we raise their salaries too high, the future of the Gurkas must be reconsidered, but we must find a compromise. Much more must be done to give those men a standard of living greater than that which they enjoy at present. I do not accept the argument that if they were back in the mountains of Nepal they would be living in poverty.
I compliment the hon. Member for Orpington again on raising this matter. The House has great difficulty in considering the remainder of our empire. We have shed most of our responsibilities, and there may be a further shedding in one or two cases, but it is clear that we must
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Dependent Territories
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be responsible for our remaining dependencies. In the months and years ahead-I hope the months--the more contentious of those cases, such as the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar, must be discussed rationally. I hope that we can reach an accommodation with a democratic Spain and Argentina to secure the long-term future of those two remnants of the empire. The alternative of sticking it out and fighting to defend them indefinitely could be costly in terms of money, our international reputation and, most of all, the lives of British soldiers.
12.18 pm
Mr. Roger Moate (Faversham): The hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) made it clear that he did not advocate total withdrawal of our military responsibilities from countries overseas, but he attacked the concept of a rapid deployment force. He is trying to have it both ways, but he cannot. His speech relates directly to the excellent motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook), which states:
"That this House. expresses its determination to defend their territorial integrity by force if necessary." The word "their" refers to dependent territories.
The hon. Gentleman is very knowledgeable about this matter, because of his membership of the Select Committee, but if one asserts, as he has, that we must have the power to defend the territorial integrity of those dependencies, it cannot be done by a modest defence exercise such as the trip-wire approach. It leads inevitably to further commitment, and perhaps to the maintenance of that commitment for longer. If we do not have the means to maintain that commitment, the original trip-wire loses its value. Logically, therefore, if one accepts, as the hon. Gentleman did, that we must have a military presence outside the NATO area, our armed services must be sufficiently flexible and powerful to give us a significant presence in many parts of the world.
We cannot have it both ways. We as a nation have our essential and primary commitment to NATO, but we also have to maintain our armed services at a high level of flexibility. We need a rapid deployment capability because we do not know where or when we might be called upon to defend territories with which we are associated, or other threatened territories which are not necessarily part of our traditional family of nations.
We might be called upon to help in United Nations exercises in different parts of the world. If we are to accept the role of defending such territories, we must maintain our armed services at a high level and be prepared to meet the necessary expenditure involved in that higher flexibility. Indeed, we have learnt a lesson in that respect from the Falklands war.
I have raised the question of defence and linked it with the point in my hon. Friend's motion about our determination to defend the territorial integrity of our dependencies. In doing so I have touched on the nub of the debate about the future of the remaining parts of the British empire.
The hon. Member for Walsall, South expressed his pride, in party terms, in the decolonisation that has been achieved. I prefer to express it in terms that would be more acceptable to all parts of the House. I do not think that there is any person in the House or in Britain who is not truly proud of the process of decolonisation, the granting of independence, and the whole history of the British. empire and of the colonies and Commonwealth in the last
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