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269
British Nationality
[LORDS]
[Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.] the docks will be short of work in a few years' time; and over half the population of Gibraltar is employed in the docks. We must look ahead and, if Spain eventually joins NATO, then I suppose that one day the docks in Gibraltar might be used for NATO purposes and the Spanish navy might use those docks, which would employ the people of Gibraltar. I just wanted to make that point. However, we must be fair and give credit to Spain for what she did in the
war.
Lord Hankey: I am very glad of the intervention of my noble friend. I started by saying that I have great understanding of the Spanish position; and I really have. But we have to ask them to live with this problem in the interests of Europe as a whole, and of a civilisation of which they are the most distinguished exponents.
Lord Geddes: It is as difficult to get an innings in your Lordships' House as it was in Leeds on Monday afternoon. Of all the arguments that have been put to your Lordships' Committee in favour of making Gibraltar an exception, I suggest that, with possibly one exception only-that of numbers, which was effecti- vely dealt with by my noble friend Lady Vickers— every one of those arguments can be stood on its head.
The only real exception that has been brought forward has been Gibraltar's membership of the EEC and that, as has been said by many of your Lordships, is already dealt with within the Bill as it stands. With that exception, it seems and many of your Lordships will be aware of my close affinity with Hong Kong- that it is grossly unjust to make an exception so far as Gibraltar is concerned, and not for the other dependent territories. With the greatest respect to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Carver, I was frankly horrified at the implications of what he had to say, if I understood him correctly, that it was Hong Kong that was causing the other dependent territories not to get full British citizenship, and that only on full weight of numbers. There does not seem to be any justification for using the argument of numbers-which the noble Baroness has very ably pointed out is not a sequitur anyway- to justify an
an exception being made.
The only other point upon which I wish to detain the Committee is that which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, made. Perhaps, though, it is best to go into this point in detail on another Occasion. If I heard the noble and learned Lord correctly, I think he said that it was the wish of the people of Hong Kong to be named as citizens of Hong Kong. I should like to leave with your Lordships' Committee the statement that this is not the advice which I have received and that it has very serious political overtones so far as Hong Kong is concerned. we should raise this matter when an amendment is tabled at another time.
Perhaps
My only other point--I advisedly call him my noble friend Lord Kadoorie whom I was delighted to see receive a Life Peerage--is that I think my noble friend Lady Vickers went a little far when she said that he could speak for his people
As I understand it, every Member of your Lordships' Committee, or House, speaks personally and not directly for others.
Bill
270
Lord Elwyn-Jones: Before the noble Lord sits down; could I point out that what in fact I said was that the desirability for the passport to bear the designation “ A British Hong-Kong citizen " is, I understand, precisely what our friends in Hong Kong want.
The Duke of Wellington: My family has been associa- ted with the Iberian Peninsula, and the Rock is part of the Iberian Peninsula, for 120 years.
I would suggest
66
to your Lordships that this amendment should be considered also, as has already been mentioned, in an Iberian context. I was a member of Her Majesty's Embassy in the mid-1960s at a period when Anglo- Spanish relations were extremely bad over what has become known as the Gibraltar Question ". One noble Lord said-I forget who-that one day a solution will have to be found to that problem. I would suggest most strongly to your Lordships that if this amendment is accepted that solution will recede into the far distance and the problem may well become altogether insoluble. Therefore, I would urge most strongly that your Lordships should reject the amendment.
5.13 p.m.
The Lord Chancellor: After so many strongly sup- ported and powerfully argued speeches, it is rather difficult to pull the debate together. If I do not mention by name all my noble friends and all noble Lords opposite who have participated in the debate, I hope that they will excuse me and acquit me of any dis- courtesy whatever. I shall speak strictly to the amendment and will try to put the arguments more or less in my own way.
I hope that on reflection the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, will cease to accuse the Government of confusing nationality with immigration. Obviously nationality and immigration have repercussions on one another. Every country in the world would have to say the same. However, I should have thought that the one thing which stood out a mile from the speech of my noble friend Lord Soames and from the speeches in support of the Government from various quarters of the Committee, including that of the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, on the Cross-Benches and my noble friend Lady Elles, is that we have precisely not done this. The Bill is about citizenship. There can be, of course, either in the long or the short run, implications for immigration, but they are quite different conceptions and we have kept them separate. The only person who, I think, blurred the distinction was my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter who defin- itely. I thought, committed the sin of which the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, accused us.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: As my noble and learned friend-
The Lord Chancellor: I thought my noble friend would get up!
Lord Boyd-Carpenter:-has been so characteristically kind as to mention me in despatches, may I point out to him that so far from blurring the citizenship and migration argument I was simply pointing out that the general statement being made by members of the Government, that no exceptions can be made in
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