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British Nationality
[22 JULY 1981 ]
One noble Lord compared its position to that of certain other British possessions. It takes no longer now to travel from London to Gibraltar than in the Middle Ages it took to travel from London to the Channel Islands. Our general approach to them puts them much more nearly in the same box factually and emotionally with those near-at-hand territories than with the more remote territories over the ocean. There is no practical reason for refusing this amendment. The Government are frightening themselves about possible reactions, and refusing the amendment will be treated and regarded by the Gibraltarians, by their critics abroad and, I am afraid, by the Spanish Govern- ment as an affront to the Gibraltarians which this House ought not to put upon them.
Lord George-Brown: May I say something very briefly, because I do not want to repeat the arguments already made? I should like to say with great respect how much I disagree with what has just been said by my predecessor and my successor at the Foreign Office in the 1960s.
I can very easily understand the sentiment which lies behind this amendn:ent. All those of us who have had to deal with the Gibraltarian situation and nego- tiations over it at various times have been torn between the sentiment which arises when the Gibraltarians are considered and the practical problems that arise if you seek to settle it in the way in which this amendment would do. It is very difficult indeed to come down on the side of the practical problems when everything inside one urges one to come down on the side of sentiment, affection and so on.
However, I am bound to say I agree absolutely with what the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel, said this afternoon and the same considerations swayed me and weighed with me when I held the office which he held in so distinguished a manner for such a long time.
There is no way out of this. If he will forgive my saying so, it is useless for the noble Lord, Lord Carver, to say rather airily, “We all know Hong Kong is a special problem, so don't mix up the problem of Gibraltar with the special problem of Hong Kong". You cannot just wave it away like that. May I say, as somebody very involved in multicolour, multi- racial associations, that I should be very unhappy if we were willing to take a different decision about the Gibraltarians and find it very easy to say, “Of course, Hong Kong is a separate case, so we won't consider them ", if the considerations are the same—and they are very nearly the same.
On the acceptance of such an amendment as this, it would follow immediately that we should be pressed from elsewhere, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Carver, and those who take that view would then have to find the answer to the Hong Kong people. It is not a very comfortable answer to have to find, because there is only one answer, and it is the one we all de- nounce as the least acceptable answer. You cannot just wash it away like that. One will complicate the situation, so far as Gibraltar is concerned, even though the Gibraltarians do not like it when one puts this argument to them (they did not when I put it to them), but, nevertheless, the fact remains that some day a solution has to be found. Some of us have thought at various times that we were getting near to finding it,
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and I still think it may well be found, but it would not be made easier by the passage of an amendment of
this kind.
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As for the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Stewart, about that rather splendid body of people with whom we have all" hassled " from time to time--the United Nations committee concerning itself with colonial matters, whatever it calls itself, which was such a great help " to me over the subject of Aden--I would make it quite clear that, even if we passed this amendment, that would not turn them on to the side either of the Gibraltarians or the British. They would turn the argument which Lord Stewart was using round the other way and say, You see just how colonial you are. You have now been taken into the colonial oppressors' maw"; they would still go on denouncing us and they would still go on denouncing the Gibraltarian position.
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Considering the whole matter, trying to weigh the good one would do for Gibraltar and the good one would do for British relations generally, the conse- quences one would be faced with from other territories and how one would answer them and so on, I feel bound to say--I thought I should declare it as there have been references to whether this is or is not a party issue, and I felt it would be unfair for somebody like myself to cast a vote virtually into the anonymity of the register without saying why one has cast one's vote in that way-with all my sentiment being so engaged with what has been said for the amendment, nevertheless for every kind of practical, sensible, realistic reason, I invite my colleagues in all parts of the Committee to reject the amendment here as it was rejected downstairs.
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Lord Avebury: Can the noble Lord recall whether contin the French have the same difficulties in the Committee of 24 in respect of their Overseas Department such as St. Pierre and Miquelon as we do in the case of Gibraltar? If not, does he think it is because the French accord those territories full citizenship?
Lord George-Brown: I have always been rather puzzled that the French, who were much harsher colonialists than we ever were, have always been so willingly accepted by the United Nations committees in terms of their relations with their ex-colonial territories, whereas we are always accused of being the oppressors, when in fact we have a very much better record. I think the answer to the noble Lord's question goes a good deal deeper than that and has something to do with much wider relationships between France and its territoires outre-mer than the issue we are now discussing. I do not think it is very relevant.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: As my name appears to the amendment, I will try to deal with what appears to be the substantive argument that has been adduced against it both by my noble friend the Leader of the House, and, with his characteristic effectiveness, my noble friend Lord Home of the Hirsel. Their argu- ment, as I understand it, which was summed up by Lord Home, is that there must be no exception, and my noble friend Lord Soames really argued the same point, if he will allow me to say so at somewhat greater length. That argument, with respect, is not tenable for the Government because exceptions are being made
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