1921-04-26 — Page 9

42

TUESDAY, APRIL 26, 1921.

NEW STAMP DUTY,

YESTERDAY'S LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL DEBATE.

IMPORTANT CONCESSIONS.

GOVERNMENT DEFENDS ITS POLICY,,

The following full report on the Stamp Duty Bill debate in the Legis- lative Council yesterday afternoon kad to be unavoidably held over natij to-day owing to the late hour at which meetings of the Council are now beld

The ATTORNET-GENERAL said:-11g to move the second reading of, the Bill antituled An Ordinance to Amend the Law relating to Stamp Duty, and ju. doing

I would like to s

the assistance received from bodies and individuais, members of both Councils, and others. The time has 2- fortunately been shers and I think we

the. indebted to

varion greatly bodies and persons who bare devoted so

ach time and care to of the and given to the

are

པ་

In

the beacht of their views and delibe tations. The course of the criticism has taken the form of efforts to reduce the increases of the various duties proposed by the Bill and to induce the Govern ment to omit certain other duties alto- gether.

where the Government base not beca able to agree with the argumrats put forward, I think those Arguments have helped very much alear up the position, and will enable 125 eventarily to come to just decisions. I would like to refer, sir, to two renal paints. It has been sug ? geste min than once that. as the Government are only asking for a ruilling from the new stamp duties, and as the present vield is about $800,00 500.000 thay might have obtained that

แม

sun by imply doubling the existing

kuit.

apart from the fact that

dati.

the section. I think that that exemption might very well be måde. I have not had time to draft an amendment to that. effect, but I have pa doubt that some farm of words can be found

Clause it is a clause dealing with the duty on agreements of sale. It is pro- posed to smit that altogether, and omit, of course, the corresponding heading (3) in the schedule. I think it is a duty which will not result in a very large yield bebes I think the cases to which it would apply in this Colony are small in number.

THE CHEN

credit granted in the United Kingdom authorising “ drafts drawn out of the baited Kingdom and payable in the United Kingdom. I think you ought to bava a similar exemption bera

Hending No. 12. The inaressed rate of daty above the line of $3 has been objected to. I have no doubt that that increased duty would not be fait st all on the higher freights and to meet the chjection, and as a compromise, it is proposed to make the dividing line * instead of 80, so that Linder the duty will be ten cents, and over 83, thirty cents.

Heading 16, Charter Parties. Thai, sir, it is proposed to reduce to fifteen cents. Instead of twenty-Eve: the present rate is ten cents.

In heading 17, conveyance on sale, it în proposed to make the dividing line 220,000 instead of $3,000, allowing certain number of smaller transactions to escape on payment of the lower sesle of duty. The present limit is 85,00€

Hending 30. I mast apologise for sams of these drafts being incomplete, but there was no time to draft and get print- રા ed completo, drafts. The effect of the proposed amendment is surpis ten cents simply to make instead of twenty little clearer i

It proposed

the duty on

cents

to make sub-head i the 3rd column 20 cents for every, $100 or part

thereof of the principal sum Becured.

I anderstand is

is proposed Chinese "orandum" drawn up by the

by the

That

of Commerce, which un have not yet had an oppor

Fortunately tanity of reading

Heading

the

It is proposed to reduce Ch from $20 to $10, I think the Chamber of Coramerce also made on that that duty was loo would high

press unfairly on the smaller firms.

*

Heading . du the original draft of

PL

the Bill a

i a pure drafting mistake occurred,

Clause 23 is a clavae dealing with ex- change contracts. Hon. members will find on the table a proposed sew draft. of that clause. It is not really a change of substance but what I shall

call a drafting amendment. I thick I

I explain edit is introducing the Bill. The paint Is this: the schedule is a list of duties which are proposed en particular fuss ments: there was nothing in clause 23. as drafted, w require any instrument st all to be drawn upon cancellation of a edraft contract. "The new clause remedies that deferet so that there will be in

and it appeared that in od ruinrem duty Fazure some instrument. It is called in

on marine policies was imposed. It was exchange motract cancellation note."

never intended that any of inlorem It is not intended that any particular duties should be imposed. The proposal Fares of ante shall be used, and I under with regard to marine policies is simply stand that the brokers' inte could be that the existing daties should be doubled

cancelled. marked

and be used as

where the amount does not exceed. and Cancellation note. Whatever form might $1,000 the day should be twenty cents. be found convenient br the bankers and

and where it exceeds $1,000, fifty cents. brokers

sufficient, will

no doubt be quite suf

It omits two more heads which ought to but some document must be executed as

appear-duplicates of policies, and rein cancellation note, and, on that document. surances, to be found on page 27.

It is be must

Bot A consequential t intended to drop those two sub-heads. arendazut of he

but owing to haste they did not appear" where di schedule so as

so as to read

exchange con-

they should. cancellation pote." tract

Heading 23

is to read power of Clause 29 is a clause dealing with late. attorney or revocation of power registration

duty. It is

is proposed now to attorney.** That appears in the existing abandon that. There are many difficul Ordinance, too. ties and it is felt on the whole that the best thing will be not to introduce that duty but to accept the suggestion made by the Stockbrokers' Association to în-" erease the Stamp Duty on share contract notes instead.

*

in se asein many cases-particular daties have been doubled, I would like to point out that there are a good many headings of duty in the present stamp law which cannot fairly be doubled, of

duty There are others increased at all. Aven i that we think cannot safely, he donijed

the probable thr because, if they were,

*Grct the might be either to drive trade from

thing one mast Colony which is always bear in mind-or ee encourage Evasion to such an extent that doabling produce nothing like

the day would produce noth double the yield of the present tax- Doubling as a means of obtaining an other million is impossible because there are certain items-they amount to more than half-which cannot fairly or afely

doubled. We, therefore, have to look to other means of increasing the stamy

revenue.

It has been suggested, both in this Council, and elsewhere, that the duties imposed by this Bill are an attack on Free Trade. I venture to say, sir, that is am improper me of the term "Free Trade," and that nothing in this Bill has any bearing at all on the question of Free Free Trade "I think, is red

Trade in two senses: In the first as bring opposed to a system of monopolies or chartered companies There is nothing of that kind here. In the second sense, it is used as being opposed to a system of taxation under which import duties are imposed os imports from abroad, or bounties given for the protection of home industries. This Bill, of course, imposta no import duty whatever, and gives no bounty: it has nothing at all to do with the question of Free Trade." I mention this because phrases are very dangerous and that phrase might get abroad give the idea that Hongkong is abandon ing its policy of Free Trade. The only duties are on tobacco and liquor and ther Br not touched by this

ག

Another suggestion made for dealing with the d-ficiency in revenue is that we should obtain money by means of Short On that point. I only want to say Loane that I think the phrase extraordizary expenditure" which appears in the esti- mates is perhaps (though quite a good phrase for its purpose) a little milad ing for the man in the street. It has been suggested that to make roads and put up houses and other buildings we ought not to rely to taxation' but, obtain Short Loars for the purpose. As long as I lave beer in the Coloay-over 20 years--WG bare always been making roads and put- hug up buildings; it is a constantly recurring expenditure and though it does result in the permanent improvement the Colony, still, as Honghang is,

is, for- tunately, a developing Cotony we always bave had, and shall have, I hope for many years to come, to go on building roads and putting up buildings out of revence and not relying on short loans for the purpose.

of

Now, in further consideration of this Bill, the Government have come to the conclusion that a good many of the pro- posals in it must be either altered or abandoned. There are also a number of small amendments which it is

proposed to submit in committee some are drafting amendments; other of some slight mb- stantial importance. I propose to go, through the Bill and state the amend ments which we propose to bring forward in committee, and state what particuler provisions of the Bill we are prepared, at this stage, to abandon,

Clause 3, sub-clause 20, contains the definition of the term vesting order." It has been pointed out that that defini- tion included too much.

A great many resting orders, which are not merely -transfers of property for consideration, but are made on the appointment of new trustees, would have to pay conveyance dety-

What is proposed to be done in that case, is to omit that mab-clause alto- gether and insert in sub-clause 9, which 18 & defnition of conveyance on sale," after the word instrument these words: and every decree or order of any Court." That will make the sec- tion practically a copy of the English section and will confine the duty on vest- -ing orders, to vesting orders on sale. It may be that we shall not get the duty on all the vesting orders we ought to get it on, but I think, on the whole, it is fairer than, the present draft

Clause 17 provides that instrumenta of the Colony-1 mena executed, bills of exchange chall, before being executed, or brought into force, neted apon, or registered within to which they the Colony, be stamped diable if executed here in the art instance. It had Been point ed out that that might be unduly hamper- ing in the case of policies, bills of lading... -and, I think, mates' receipts attached to

bills of exchange, and if a form of word

bbound to exempt those from.

eat

the

would have been

am not

Clause 41. sub-clauses 1 and 2. deal with the liability of corporate bodies and firms and officers and partners and servants for failure to stamp, I sure that I fully grasp the objection to these clauses as they now stand, bat we are prepared to alter that as regards the directors and officers in the one case, and partners and servants in the other case,

agree with the form of the section in the Companies” Ordinance dealing with failures to

comply with the

so as to

provisions of that Ordinance by com- panies and their officers and servants. I think the proposal which has found favour is to make sub-clause (1) read- "Every director, manager, secretary and other officer who knowingly is a party to the default." I

am not sure that alters the meaning very

much. We shall be prepared, if that is not thought enough, to make the second read and knowing- or wilfully permits such de- ly authorises or fault

The remarks apply to sub- _clause In... care any members wish to refer to the Companies' Ordinance; the section referred to is 2, sub-section 5, and the second form is to be found in section 37 of Ordinance

the

u 1913.

Clause 42 has been objected to, but I think chiefly on the ground that it is indefinite and it is not quite clear to what it refers. It was meant, chiefly, to refer to appeals from the Collector to the Summary Court and it has been suggested that the clause might be transferrell its present place to Clause 15 with appexis

against assessments. " The

From the party appealing from collector

has clearly got to establish his case against the decision already given and the whole thing can be carried out by means of a stated case. I think the simplest thing would be to omit that "DERS clause altogether; it does not exist in the pre- sent Ordinance and we have got on very well without it

Clause 45, limitation of time. It is pro posed to add to that clause another sub- section providing that no prosecution shall be instituted under this Ordinance, except with the censent of the collector That

to prevent the institution of prosecutions by unauthorised persona

Ulanse 48. It is proposed to insert after the word "commits." the words" or attempts to commit" any offence I do

not think many cases will occur in which the added words will take effect, but

may occur.

some

Clause 43 is a clause which gives power of inspection and search. That has been objected to, but I think unreasonably. It is a clause that no honest person has any ground for objecting to. It is intended to save the bonest person from having to bear an undue share of taxation

of the evasion of duty by the dishonest person. It will only be used, I have no doubt

in cases where there is good reason to believe that duty is being evaded, systematically and deliberately, and to give up that power, L.suggest, would be to invite the disloyal and dishonest citizen to attempt to evade the duties imposed by this Bill

Dealing with the schedule, and Leading No. 4, it is proposed to abandon that to omit it altogether. I will, no doubty produce very large revenue even if the -- rate of duty is reduced, it is doubtful how far one could collect the proper amount No doubt a great mang-agree ments will escape the duty and it is thought fairer to omit that proposal altogether.

Reading 5 I have already mentioned in. dealing with clause 21. That will also be

omitted

In heading No. 19, bill of exchange, the sub-head 4, letter of credit, has been sbjected to, and it has been suggested that persons leaving this Colony and taking with them letters of credit for ordinary trading purposes would go. to Canton and get their letters of credit there I do not think there is much în that, and I do not think that heading ought to be omitted. But there is another form of letter of tredit which I think ought to be exempted from daty or the Ffecedent of the United Kingdom Stamp Act One of the exemptions is letters of

of

Heading 41. In the sub-head (1), transfer Shares, it is proposed to reduce the daty from fifty cents to twenty eats. that is to twenty cents & bendred. in- stead of fifty. Sub-head 2 will be amitted altogether as clause 29 is being omitted. in other words the late registration goes.

There is another amendment which I did mention in introducing the Bill. In the ath column. opposit ** transfer shares the words should be “before execution" instead of ditto."

In sub-head 5 it is proposed to adopt the scale which, I understand, has been proposed by the Stockbrokers' Associa tion-with one alteration. The scale proposed there is this: Up to $1,000 at the rate of 81. over $1,000 up to $10,000, $3 each contract note; over $10,000 and up to $20,000, $3; over $20,000 and op $30,000, $7.50: over $30,000, $10. It is supposed that that scale may bring in about $50,000 to $100,000.

Ia sub-head 4. it is

proposed to reduce the amount to $1. instead of $2.

Heading 42. It is proposed to make the amount $5, instead of sa

Reading 43, as I explained in dealing

#clause 99, will be omitted altoge

I beg to move the second reading. The CELOSIAL SECRETARY seconded the motion

The Hon. Mr. Pozbck: As. I am not opposing this Bill going into Committee, and as I shall have an opportunity there of raising certain points, I do not pro pose to take up the time of the Council in making any remarks.

3

DEFENCE OF GOVERNMENT POLICY.

of the

forward for this

27

E.E. THE OFFICER ADMINISTERING THI GOVERNMENT: The Attorney-General has, I think, dealt very fully with the amend ments which the Government propose to more in the Committee stage of the Bill and 1 agree with him that the repre sentations that have been made by the various bodies and people in the Colony who are affected by the proposed in- creased in the Stamp Duties

Duties have been very useful to the Government in coming to various decisions on the subject of the new duties, and also agree with recording our appreciation of the labours

sat for mont

for months, in mittes wine

Ordinance. up the ameni On the principle of the I would like to make one or two remarks at this stage, The Bill, as was pointed out by the Attorney-General, and by myself in the first reading debate of the Council, is one for raising more revenue, but the mere fact that the Bill is being brought I think, purpose has, led to certain misapprehensions." Qae is that the Government is imposing upon the present generation of tax payer: greater burdens than they should bear and that part of the burden of carrying on the work of the Colony should fail on those who come after us. It has been suggested, and is is a very attractive Euggestion á st first sight, that part of the expenditure of the Colony which is

works devoted to public

should be de frayed by loan-they have described as "shor

short-term loans " in that way the annual Budget would be relieved of the very

large sums which have appeared recently for what are 'public works extra forward known as We have had the proposal put for some years, and I must say that some year ago I was attracted by it until examine more closely what the effect would be in after years if

adopt ed

that policy. The usual practice in. the case of the Colonies the self-governing

which

are now in most cases. in the Dominions has been to for their public works and porrow money to schedule in the case the Joans certain public works securities which subscribers to the loan can see at once. the

nature of

of and naturally the public works, to which thes of a productive loans were to be devoted have

been worst once which nature, oz after a lapse of 1 year to be remune rative to such an extent as to provide not only interest on the loan, but en adequate sinking fand But I canot see how in this Colony, even if we were permitted to do so, any loan which we

or

came to

general been

We

raise could have a schedule atached to its prospectus of public works which yould be of a prochrelive nature. hare practically no public works which can he said to produce revenno which would pay interest and provide for the amortisation of the man, and, therefore, if a short-term loan were to be raised as required, we should find our- solves after a certain number of years, when the works had been completed out of the proceeds of the lean, without any

interess return coming is to pay

`or to

ant

provide for sinking fand, and

and the sult would be that our annual Rudget would be loaded with a

a large amount for interest and winking fund. If I may suppose that in a period of, say, 23 YCATE a losa of $25,000,000 were to be raised for oar public works, or the most import-

of

Works, what public rate of interest could this Government expect to raise it att English funds pro- dace practically 6 per cent, and our experience is that other bodies in the East who have raised loans have had to give 7 and even 7 per cent. We should ând. ourselves, when all the money was expended, faced with the necessity for providing a million or a million and a half of interest at 6 per cent, and also a large amount for the sinking fund. Thus our Budget would be loaded with rather more than two million dollars a year. and it is our experience that new public works, which had never been foreseen would come up as argent services, with the result that we should have to

And money not provided by the loan to pay

for them. So far as can see, our last state would be worse than the first. and those who would have to face the taxes

such a required to meet a Budget would complain sery bitterly of those who few years before advocated the floating of short loan for public works and had been so effective in their arguments as to get the Government to agree to that.

Another point arising out of the pria- ciple of this Bill, which, as I have said, is a rerous producing Bill, is that the Government has latterly been extravagant in its expenditure and we are asking for revenue which we should not be asking for if we had kept our Budgets w proper bounds. I do not know what such We have had arguments are based on. to put forward larger budgets to ask for more provision for public works »xtra- ordinary than for in other years, because during the war-we-kept-that-part-of-car- expenditure as low as possible in order that we might bave as mach money as possible to send to His Majesty's Govern- ment for the prosecntion of the war. It

is natural that after four Jets of a policy of that nature many public works of a more or less urgent nature have been

in abeyance and it is necessary that re should proceed with them now. members are aware also that the revenue derived from the onium monopoly, which during one of the later years of the war reached a sum of over $5,000,000 fed last year to. I think, under $3,000,000, and I think it is likely this year to be well- ander 24,000,000. I cannot tell whether this is due to people smoking less or to the smuggling of cheaper opiam fato the but I suspect that the

latter probably the reason for the fall in our revenue. But that fall is in pursuance of the policy adopted by this Govegament for the reduction in the use of opiam to the legitimate limits of the population.

Colony,

We have to raise revenue to meet that loss and we have to raise revenue for carrying into effect absolutely neces sary public works. It has been contended that part of these works-for example, our road-making policy is extravagant. and unnecessary at the present time. think that view is a mistaken one. The road policy that portion of our road policy which has takes the shape of mak ing roads in the hill district and eventu- ally extending that system to the south side of the island-is & policy which I think future generations will recognise as- a far-seeing one. With the great develop- ment of motor traffic and the enormous -uses which can be made of these roads, it is essential that the ever-increasing population of the higher levels of this Colony should not remain dependent on one effective means of access, which is cut off absolutely for certain hours every day. I do not need to go into details to show what immense service that particular road system is going to be to the grow ing population

It has been in several cases of great service already. In the future it will be of vastly greater use. I know of no other item of

expenditure The to which objection can be taken. barding of quarters for Government ser- vents,

I consider, is a

ix a policy which should be supported with the greatest enthusika, and if it is considered at the present time that the class of house which is being erected is too expensive it must be remem bored that these houses will require a very low sum for repairs and will find for very many years more than would houses built at a lower cost and which would require either

OUT

ance to amend the Stamp Duty be read a second time.

On being put to the vote, His "Ex LINCE declared "The ayes have it.”**

The Arroxxx-GENERAL moved that the Council go into committee to consider the Hill clause by clause.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and it was agreed to

THE COMMITTEE STAGE. HYPOTHECATION TO A BANKER,

Ou clause 3 the ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved to add the words say other decree or order of any court" to sub- clause This was agreed to.

On sub-clause 13, Hon. Mr. Lar CH Par moved that the words "with banker in the second line be deleted a« otherwin any hypothecation to a person oler than a banker would have to l stamped as a mortage within the meaning of section 3 (19).

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: -I think the words ought to stand. I do not think other mortgages should escape merely because they are made in that form. In the present schedule the limitation does not occur. The present wetion nuds "Fetter

instrument Or to other

of hypothecation.

HIS EXCELLENCr: Is this a narrower definition?

it.

to

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes, this limits The original form of the proposal make all mortgages liable to full duty, but it was pointed out that would andals hamper a regular part of the hanker's business, and therefore, this exemption of letters of hypothecation to

a banker was inserted.

HYA EXCELLENCr: I think the intention is to keep the exemption as narrow as possible.

Hon. Mr. Lat CHT PAX: I do cot press it.

HIS EXCELLENCv If the bon member does not press it. I think we will keep to the present clause of the Bill,

On sub-clause 19, the Hon. Mr. POLLOCK said: You do not say that a marketable security should be mortgage. All the other sub-heads refer to documents deal- ing with securities

HIS EXCELLENCY: Would it not be better To put in a

a sub-head?"

В

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: That might done if it woull be more convenient. It amounts to the same kind of thing as a mortgage.

it

At the Hon. Mr. POLLOCK's suggestion was agreed that sub-clause 19 should stand over in order that he might confer with the Attorney-General on the subject. On sub-clause relating to resting orders, the Attorney-General moved that it be omitted from the Bill and this was agreed

to

BIS EXCELLENCY: Clause 3 of the Bill will stand ever for further amendment if necessary.

On clause 4. Hon. Mr. LAT CBT PAK said: Regulations (c) and (d) seem un- necessary in view of section (7) and section 30

(3)

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: (c) gives paxer" to make regulations and gives direction as to the manner in which any stamp duty Is to be calculated or ascertained. With reference to

to regulations in clause 3) it is intended to make it clear that that pro vision as to calculation of duty is liable alteration by the Governor in Council.

HIS EXCELLENCY: The first one is. absolutely general in character applying to the whole Ordinance and the second is particular.

The clause was agreed to

On clauses 5 and 7, the ATTORNEY- GENERAL said: Clause 5 is a clause which deals generally with stamp duty and pro- vides that the duty described in the schedule shall be paid on the instrument Clause is drafted chiefly with a view to heading No 11 in the schedule which is the duty on bank, notes. It is not intended that bank notes should be stamped. The schedule provides that the bank note duty shall be paid to the col lector by the banker on a statement made by the bank as to the average annıber of notes in circulation, and this sub-cladse is meant to deal with that case, where the duty is not paid on an instrument but in some other way.

HIS EXCELLENCY: This is of a special nature, and it is clear that it is of a special nature.

The Hon. Mr. PozLOCK: One is a general power: the other a particular power.

HIS EXCELLENCY: Clause 4 stands part of the Bill.

PENALTY FOR NEGLECT.

On clause 5, sub-section 3. Hon. Mr. POLLOCK said: The learned Attorney- General has already pointed out that he proposed to make amendments to clause 1. I think there is a similar amendment required for this so as not make a person guilty of an offence simply if an instru- ment is not stamped, but to put in some provision with regard to his knowingly or wilfully authorising or committing the If this could stand over, per- baps I could confer with the "Attorney. 1: General. I think be would be willing to concede that some provision of that sort is necessary.

HIS EXCELLENCY: This is a civil offence. The Hon. Mr. POLLOCK: It is a criminal offence

The ATTORNEY-GESERAL: The difficulty is this: the intention is to bind somecat to see to it that the duty is paid; neglect in this case as in many others shall be så offence. It is dangerous to leave the door open to evasion. I think, criminal liability ought to arise on mere neglect. There must be of course, knowledge.

The Hon. Mr. POLLOCK: There is civil” liability and also a penalty.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Civil liability would be a totally inadequate remedy, You could only recover the actual duty on that particular transaction and nothing in respect of other evasions. It would be an invitation to anybody to evade the duty..

there

defsuit. heavy and expensive repairs or need to be entirely rebuilt within probably the limits of the present generation. That part of our expenditure will bring in an income, although from an economical point of view the per- centage is a low one, and cannot possibly · be made an excuse for raising a loan. Our expenditure which has been thought in some quarters to be expensive is" already millions lower than during the years of the war. We went, I think, it is over one and a half millions sterling to His Majesty's Government for the pro- sarution of the war and when the need for sending that money had ceased it was. obvious that we should reduce our expenditure. We have done so.

Last year our expenditure was 144 millions and revenue was $200,000 more Hon. members have had figures during the last few days and, therefore, our Budget more than balanced itself. We shall probably this year, I hope, again make our budget balance probably have a balance on the right side but we shall only achieve that by the sale of Crown lands Euch sales, Which are exempt from payment of mili tray contribution, cannot be held to be revenue in the ordinary sense but are really drawing upon our capital "re sources. It is probable, therefore, that at the end of this year our balances will remain as they are at present and may even be slightly increased, but we shall have parted with some of our capital resources in the shape of Crown lands.

I, therefore, consider the mggestion that the Government is adopting a spend,- thrift policy cannot possibly be sustained, and that the suggested policy of floating abort term loans for paying for perman- ent public works would not be a wise one. Le Bill, therefore, which is before you and the principle of which is to raise revenue, 1 bold to be entirely-vindicated by our-present position and with the amendments, which have been adumbrated by the Attorney General will prove s measure which will infict is sort of hardship upon the community.

HT EXCELLENCE; It has been moved and seconded that the Bilt intitaled An Ordin-

The Hon. Mr. POLLOCK IS penalty

2017

The ATTORNEY-GENTRAL: He could be sued for the duty, plus the penalty.

HIS EXCILESOY (to Mr. Pollock):. What is it you propose 1

The

Hon. APOLLOCK-Some words. similar to those suggested by the Attorney. General in the ease of clause 41 as is the Companies'

dance.

Ordinance

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: In the panies' Ordinance the company made liable for the default and fås mete failure to comply. Mere neglect entails s criminal penalty on the company; the directors and partners are not liable less they are knowingly a party, I. it that there ought to be a lishility-on somebody to see that a document is stamp. /

Pot

The Hoa, Mr. Potro suggested thaổ he might discuss it with the Attorney- General and they might find some agaend form of language to provide that the penalty should fall on the person: khow- ingly or wilfully evading the Ordinance.

W

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I think a ording would be very dangerous. How done it are you going to prove that the man. kas wilfully." Bere you have a document which everyone knows ought to be stamped. You charge him with wil fully evading the duty and be says was not wilful, I was careless and did not bother."

It was agreed that clause 5 should stand

OFER..

UNSTAMPED DOCUMENTS IN CIVIL

FEDCEEDINGS. • * ́

On clause & the Hon. Mr. PozLOCK, BRIM: I draw attention to the fict than the first sub-section renders an unstamped document wholly inadmissible in civil proceedings. That is a great departare from the law at home where documents can be admitted on payment of a penaky.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: That is dealt - with in later clause. If a docume instrument is not stamped as it ought be, it can be done by special leave.

The Hon. Mr. POLLOCK: It is extra ordinarily inconvenient. Are the whole proceedings in court be held up while,"

Zout of

the party goes to the Collector, and possibly appeals from him to the Gover-

nor!

at all.

we

HIS EXCELLENCYY: I think those in charge of the case would see that the documents are properly stamped. The Hon. M. POLLOCK: "It

seems 10 me rather cumbersome. It does not follow the wording of the Faglish Aat thing if I had an opportunity of conferring with the Attorney-General

arrive at a

was ing. It is a very important point.

The Cotovi

SECRETARY 1

1 may point out, sir, that it has been the law of the Colony since 1901. I think it will make many people more careft! That is what it is designed for. Under section of the old Ordinance the 'Court actually takes possession of the document and. hands it over to the Collector.

It was agreed that the clause should be held over.

Os clause 5. the Hon. Mr. Lau CHU said this section as taken from the

4

glish Act in which there were the "with intent to defraud Her Majesty

He thought some similar words should be inserted such as "with intent to evade the Stamp Ordinance.

Hon. Mr. POLLOCK: Could that" ore, sir! Clause 3, as amended by the addition of the words.saggested was passed and stands part of the Bill.

stand

dausrbal amendment was made to

14.

clapse i the Hon. Mr. POLLOCK

it had been suggested by the Chinese Chamber of Commerce that there ought to be an appeal to the Governor- in-Council from the Collector.

It

was agreed that the clause should stand over, in order that words to pre vide this might be inserted.

i

of

Claase 17 was also postponed in order that the Attorney-General night draft different form of words to protect bills

Attached lading

to drafts. The Arroatty GENERAL announced that clause relating to agreements of sale would be omitted and consequently subsequent clauses would require to be renumbered.

EXCHANGE COSTRÄCTS. On clause 23, which now becomes class 29, the ATTORNEY-GENERAL proposed a new draft clause.

The Hon. Mr. POLLOCK suggested that the clause should stand over to give bon members an opportunity to consider it.

The Hon. Mr. Lasa: I would like to suggest that this question of

Leading

transfers be bold up for further disc sion. A few minutes before coming into this Chamber the manager of one of the banks put certain information into my possession which mskes desir able that there should be no duty until the matter be further gone into. It has been represented to me that in the event of this taxation being brought into force one client alone of this bank would refuse. to bring the firm's outstation collecticas" to the Colony. It would mean a loss of twenty-five or

toare de thirty million de year

HIS EXCELLENCY:

ony.

How do they pro- pose to finance these transactions

The Hon. Mr. LANG: This money is brought in from outstations to Hongkong to be sent, home.

The Hon. Mr. STEPS: I do not agree with the remarks of one of the leading bankers. I do not think there it any chance of the tax having the effect fear ed. It is a perfectly just stamp tax and is applied in other parts of the world. I

am perfectly certain the Colony,

will not suffer. #

HIS EXCELIESTY: And you think that the client would not be able to negotiate his business elsewheret

The Hon. Mr STEPHENS: Only to very small extent. He must come to the biggest market, which is Hongkong.

HIS EXCELLESET: will take the sense of the Council on the question of post- poning the clause or not.

The Hon. Mr. POLLOCK: I should be in favour of it being postponed simply be- cause we have not had time to comider it. HIS EXCELLENCY: We have been pa sidering it for some time.

The Hon. Mr. POLLOCK! The Hon. Mr. Lang has just brought before as some

objection

The COLONIAL SECRETARY! We have bad a very definite reply to the question raised by Mr. Lang.

The Hon. Mr. SIZE: If this clause is to be allowed to stand over I shall probably not be here when it comes up and I should like to say that in my opin ion it is a perfectly legitimate source for the Government to go for revenue and cannot possibly in any way affect the interests of the Colony.

The Hon. Mr. POLLOCK: I was not, of course, disputing the hon. member's know- ledge of the effect of the transaction ges erally I only wanted to know the speciár arguments on the mbject.-

HIS EXELLENCY: Has the hoa, member who moved that this clause should stand over any other material to show that this enormous body of business would be dealt with risewhere and that for the sake of ten cents on every $500 a man would take the chance of the

ed and that there ought to be a penaltys kepinbellykket in these other

for neglect.

The Hon. Mr. POLLOCK, as an instance of posible hardship, suggested fast- bancer's customer might fail, to put the

- proper stamp on a cheque....

The Arrozszy Genzzaz replied that the baniter did not inter the cheque form in that case.

The Hon. Mr. Lang: I have not had- time to go deeply into the matter with the banker who supplied me with the information. I mentioned it to the Hou Mr. Stephen and he was inclined to dis Credit what my informant saldat (Continued on Page 10.)