CO885-24 — Page 329

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

15

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

TILL CO. 885

24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

Monday, 7th December, 1914.

Evidence taken at the Seventh Meeting.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

VICE ADMIRAL SIR EDMOND J. W. SLADE, K.C.I.E., K.C.V.O. (in the Chair).

Mr. G. B. BARSTOW, C.B..

Mr. W. J. EVANS.

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

Mr. H. W. MALKIN.

Mr. THOMAS L. DEVITT and 277. (Chairman.) You have been thinking out this scheme with regard to the chartering of these ships?-- Mr. Devitt.) I had the idea that they might want employment, and therefore I ventured to submit my views in the first instance, and I was then asked to Since then I have understood from come and see you. the Colonies that they are alrendy loading some of these ships. I do not know whether that is so.

278. I believe some of them are, but they are not all being taken up. We shall be very much obliged indeed if you will tell us what your views are as to the best way of dealing with them?-Presuming the ships brought over to this country for sale, I thought you would get a much better price in this country than by selling them in the Antipodes, where you would have a fewer number of purchasers. I thought it would save a great deal of money if you could earn money by bringing cargo in them instead of them being sent in ballast. Then if I could get some business out of you myself, which is the least part of it. I suppose. I thought na we have our machinery in Sydney und Melbourne-we, the Orient Company, having our offices there our staff might have been of use to you.

279. Certainly-We have gone so far as to charter several cargo steamers ourselves to fill up the gaps of the vessels which His Majesty's Governinent has taken away from us.

280. There is no doubt we shall be very grateful for any assistance. Will you tell us shortly what sort of machinery do you think would be the best kind to set in motion to deal with these ships. You understand that they are in a somewhat peculiar position. Some of them are condemned and will be ultimately for sale. Some of them are only detained until the end of the war when they have to be returned?-I thought you would only deal probably with those which have been seized and which would be for sale.

281. We want to deal with all of them, because obviously these ships are eating money at present and want to find some means of earning none, and we

ying the bill?-But can you employ theae interned ships if they are seized and condemned?

282. We hope to?--If you have to return them to their owners?

283. That does not matter?-Can you in the mean- time employ them?

284. That is what we intend to do. How would you proceed? Have you any scheme in your own mind as to how to proceed?--Only roughly." I do not know how many ships there are there which are suitable to carry cargoes.

285. They are all suited for cargoes. Some of them are partly cargo and partly passenger, but they have all fairly good curgo space --I do not know whether there will be a department out there to take charge of the whole thing. There is an arrangement generally among the wool shippers to have their own agents, and they ship their wool with the various societies and companies and firms who have the loading of such ships und steamers. I do not want to cut up their business because I think it would be unfair to compete with the trading community with vessels that are Government property.

We do not 286. That is what we want to avoid. want to cut into the market anywhere, but we want to

Mr. G. ROPER. Mr. C. TENNYSON. Mr. C. D. WAKELY.

Mr. R. A. WISEMAN (Secretary).

Mr. E. VERNER attended,

put out these ships where they are required; that is to say, provided we finally get the Government sauction to do it, we want to invite tenders for these ships from firms who require them and who will put then on the berth in place of ships which have been requisitione 1 from them by the Government P-Are there any fust steamers amongst them? This is a much larger scheme than I had thought of, but I am very glad to turn my mind to it. There are certain ships here in this list, the Sumatra," for instance--she is detained I see.

287. The first ships are all ships of detention? -There is a season in Australia when the wool comes down, and it lasts about three months.

288. It is just now, I think?—Yes.

280. It is due? Yes. It may be a little late this season because of the interruption.

290. We want to get the ships ont as soon as possible. The sooner we can get them into running the better. Supposing we wish to hire these ships out. who is there in Australia who will take them I om afraid unless there is some central person there would be great chaos, there would be great competition, and there would be small remuneration. It would have to be done with the concurrence of people out there and by an arrangement there with them to load them in turn or distribute them among the loading firms, or make some arrangements for guaranteeing certain freight.

(Mr. Tennyson.) There was one ship chartered, and with regard to a certain number of ships they propose to requisition them either for transport or for com mercial purposes. They may be chartering others. Almost all these ships have been requisitioned for some purpose or other, but I am not clear how many ure still free.

291. (Chairman.) That rather complicates matters? -There are four or five of them being loaded now for outward cargo from Australia.

292. (Mfr. Tennyson.) I think that is very likely ?--- I dare say it is a delicate position between the Colonial and the Imperial Governments. I do not know what it is. and it is not my business. I do not know whether there are any difficulties to overcome with regard to the detention or condemnation of the ships.

293. (Chairman.) That part does not matter so much. We can perfectly well arrange that here ?---My idea was that if it was not too large a business I should send my friend Mr. Veruer out, who is thoroughly conversant with these freights, with a commission to arrange with all the leading people there to work harmoniously and get the ships loaded.

294. Of course there are certain preliminary con- siderations. Unless the Government ran the ship themselves, that is to spy, provide the crews and did all that part of the businers, we should have to make arrangements with some firm to take the ship over? Yes; there is a scarcity of sailors there as there is here. I expect, and very higli wages are being paid for men I do not know whether there are enough men to man the whole of these ships.

295. That I do not know - Then there is all the leading, the stevedoring, and the pressing of the wool. and all the rest of it. There are two ways of doing it, either the Government can take a fixed sum from soine

Mr. T. L. DEVITT and Mr. E. VERNER.

7 December 1914.]

syndicate of people for the ships, or another way is to put them on the berth, and pay them a commission for their services. I should like to consider it before I give a definite opinjon as to the best way of dealing with it.

206. It seems to me, looking at it from the point of view of the Government, the Government having no machinery at hand for the purpose of running ships as a commercial venture, that the simplest way would bo to offer the ship for so much a ton dead weight or whatever arrangement you like to make, to a firm who will take her over, run her, insure her, and return her at the end of the period in the same condition that they received her?—In this country.

297. In this country-fair weir and tear excepted. Does that seem fair ?—That is a possible way, I think. (Mr. Verasr.) Owing to the large number of liners taken off this business there have been some 25 to 30 steamers taken up by various firms to bring carges home. That business began by being chartered for the round voyage out from here and home at 3s. 9d. a ton dead weight on the ships. This is on the ordinary time charter basis. The price has gradually gone up owing to the continued demand for ships. The last one has been 84.------

293. Tant is for the round voyage?—The last one was home only. That is on the gross tonnage. Some are paid on their all told" deadweight capacity and some on their grass register tonnage-i mitter of argument.

299. Is that per in›nth ? —Per moath. 300. Taking those figures ?-(Mr. Drift.). We fixed one, two or three daya ugi at 58. 6d. (Mr. Verner.) That is the round. Of course taking them on the round cat and home they could do it at a cheaper price as a rule. (Mr. Dzeitt.) There is generally the grain crop. It is possible they may not have enough for their own require- ments out there this year. That will make another difficulty, (Mr. Verner.) Bearing on that fact there are the wool cargoes, which is quite a limited business. With no grain available the only other way in which these steamers could be employed would be with coals away from Australia, for which there is demand in every direction.

One of these steamers you have detained is under charter to us

to carry coals. (Mr. Desitt.) The intended voyage was to San Fran- cisco with coals and then with grain home or lumber or grain back to Australia. That is an alternative to the Australian grain business. The vessels in that case would load coal up to one of the grain loading ports, and bring that homs here or back to Australia if there was a demand there.

301. That is very much the same trade as the grain trade here?--(Mr. Verners) Yea,

302. The Black Sea steamers go out with coal and. come back with grain P-Yes. Those are the alter native freights. (Mr. Devitt.) Except for refrigeratel ships. At the beginning of the year we might get refrigerated produce, butter and meat, and a little later, apples.

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303. (Mr. Tennyson.) I believe they are all taken up? (Mr. Verner.) I believe it is the refrigerating sines which has been fixed in Australia. That was my impression There are one or two firma who are interested in the mat trade who are reported to be bading some.

34. Yes, I baliare some have been?—(Mr. Devil!) I think they are

more likely to pick out steamers uitable for that.

305 Yes, I think that is so?~(Mr. Verner.) The sal process for a shipowner is not to offer vessels on the market in Australia at all. The usual process is to put them into a broker's hands here, in London. I suppose 90 per cent, of all the chartering of the world is practically done in that way. The merchants all attend there or their representatives, and ther largain on the London Baltic, the London Exchange. for tessels for all over the world. The London market in one sense is where the hiring chiefly takes place. But then, of course, the actual loading which takes place in Australia must necessarily be done by a staff out there, and it was Mr. Davitt's idea that the staff out thre might be of use if the Government charterad them.

[Continued.

396. (Chairman.) The difficulty that we are faced with is that we are not aship-owning body?-- Mr. Doviti.} That is true.

307. And we have to put something in the place of that, and therefore it seems to me that the simplest and the best way of dealing with that is to turn these ships over to a shipowner or a ship-owning firm for a certain hire, and let them make what they can out of it?-I think you will have a diffulty with one ship at a tin". or a set, perhaps 8 or 10-I do not think you will put the whole of those up for tender.

308. No, you could not do that?-It wants dealing with in the same way as we deal with our own businesses. Cannot the Government keep it in their own hands an let somebody be in constant telegraphic communication with headquarters in Australia, saying, "Who can take this ship, and what can you get for her," and anb. mit it to the Government?.

309. Yes. I think we can do something of that kind. The main difficulty is, of course, how to start the thing. One does not want to start it on wrong lines ?—First of all, could we find out actually how many of thes steamers are fixel?

310. We have telegraphed out for that information. but we have not had a reply yet. I should think probably we could get firms here, if we offered the steamers on the Baltic, to take the steamers over au I run them? I am not quite sure about that. There are those who would, doubtless.

311. I have already had offers for several ?—No doubt.

312. In the East Indian trade they will take any- thing they can get hold of, I think -Yes. I suppose their is nothing here fast enough to take the place of a bril steamer, because the Gwernment have taken five of our ships, three of them for cruisera. How would you deal with the offering of those ships? You would not put them to public tender ? You would have to employ some trusted broker who would have no interest in it himself.

313. That is probably how we shall have to deal with it I should think that is the sufest and best way to procesil.

314. To put it in the hands of a broker?—Yes, somebody you can trust, who is competent, and who would submit offers to you, and advise generally as tą the employment of the ships.

315. What speed would you want. We cannot do with less than an average of 15 knots.

316, I think all those have been already taken up by the government ?—I am afraid so. When I speak of one broker I mean that you should employ a broker who could arrange with others more conversant with the Indian and other trades, as the trusted broker may not know everything about every trade. It would be an advantage to get a man who could correspond and deal with others in particular trades. Any good broker usually knows a good deal about the market. generally, but he necessarily knows more about certain trades than others. He also knows where to go for the information about any particular trade on which his own knowledge is incomplets.

317. Yes, you would have to be careful as to how you did it in that way, but that would not be a difficult thing to secure, would it ?-Mr. Verner.) Oh, dear.

110).

318. (Mr. Hull.) Anderson could do it ?—Anything I do here is connected with Green's aud Anderson's, We are joint managers of the Orient Company.

319. (Chairman.) Your recommendation is to put the whole thing into the hands of brokers?—Yea.* 1 should have liked to load ships at the berth on behalf of the Government. But if the best part are taken up for wool and the others by the Government, I do not think it remains open. I believe the "Sumatra " has 150,000 cubit feet of space for frozen produce; abe would be taken up at once by the frozen meat people.

(Chairman.) Unfortunately I cannot give you the details of those which have been taken up because wo have not had an answer to our telegram yet.

(Mr. Tennyson.) I can get some facts in a few minutes if you like.

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