CO885-11 — Page 131

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O.882/11

IALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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have the relevant political and economic facts before it unless they were put in evidence, and it might mean-giving them con- fidential State information.

Mr. Ch'ên: The commission would be composed of responsible people. Confidential matters, if essential, could be given to them, but not for publication. There is a possibility, you say: let us deal with it if it arises. It would be a question whether the You commission should decide without these essential matters. are prophesying possibilities only.

Mr. Kemp: It is a certainty. They would have to have the poli- tical and economic consideration before them.

Mr. Ch'ên: I do not-see how much matters could be so essential as to be withheld.

Mr. Kemp: You might not like to communicate your confiden tial matters to the Court.

Mr. Ch'ên: We have absolutely nothing to hide.

Mr. Kemp: I cannot remember such a wide reference in any previous arbitration.

Mr. Ch'ên: It is perhaps exceptional. We wish for a new page in Anglo-Chinese relations, and we see a possible breakdown if this practical solution is refused.

Mr. Kemp: The delay is not the only objection: an efficient enquiry seems impossible at this late stage.

Mr. Ch'ên: The point about the reliability of witnesses is met by cross-examination and addresses.

Mr. Kemp: Cross-examination and addresses cannot meet that difficulty.

Mr. Brenan: Our main objection is that we cannot produce the witnesses. What are we to do about the Swedish and Danish Consuls?

You have not yet replied to the question I asked. It was: are you prepared to secure the co-operation of the French and the other Powers concerned?

Mr. Ch'ên: Ordinary courtesy will require co-operation in this matter. We will co-operate in the selection of the chairman.

Mr. Brenan: If the British authorities accept the suggestion for an enquiry, will you make the necessary arrangements

Mr. Ch'ên: As concerns getting the commission together, we We will follow international practice, but we shall expect co-opera- tion from you. We will do what is necessary ourselves. wish to separate the question as between the French and the Chinese from the question as between the British and the Chinese. Mr. Brenan: The boycott is one thing and Shakee is another. You cannot separate the French and British in the Shakee incident.

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Mr. Ch'ên: We do, but if you insist on bringing the French in we have no objection. You shot from Shameen. We do not want to inquire whether the French shot or not. We invited a conference on the strike. You said that was a thing of the past, and so you drove us to the boycott which we call the malady, and attribute directly to Shakee.

Mr. Brenan: Who is involved in Shakee?

Mr. Ch'ên: You are.

Mr. Brenan: Who else also?

We

Mr. Ch'ên: The French may be. The whole case is that the British fired the first shot. The suggestion has never been made that the French fired the first shot. The crucial point is who shot first. We say you did, and that is for the Court to say. could go further and say you continued shooting. The French They are not do not come into either of our two statements. included at all. There is nothing at all on record to say that the French started firing at all.

Mr. Brenan: We say you started it.

Mr. Ch'ên: And that is where we joined issue.

A

Mr. Kemp: We must consider all theoretical possibilities. commission of enquiry might find that the French started the firing.

Mr. Ch'ên: You are prophesying again. Consider the facts. There has never been any suggestion whatever that the French started the firing. It cannot seriously be urged that a possible revelation may be made of the French beginning the shooting.

Mr. Brenan: I contest that position. If the firing started from Shakee it may have been started by the French.

Mr. Kemp: We do not wish to throw the responsibility on the French. That issue has never been discussed, but another possi- bility is that they might be held responsible for the continuance of the firing. In any case the French forces 'took part, and French witnesses would be necessary.

Mr. Ch'ên: The French are not a necessary part of the enquiry, but if the British delegation insist on their being joined to the investigation we have no objection.

Mr. Brenan: Do you undertake to make the necessary arrange- ments for the enquiry?

The

Mr. Chiên: As regards the French you must do that. party wishing the French to be joined to the enquiry must get

them.

Mr. Brenan: You insist on the enquiry which involves the French; ipso facto it is you that bring them into the enquiry.