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Sir WILLIAM. MULOCK: Well, the Imperial Act of 1896 in general applies to all the Colonies. It affects them in that way. Did any live stock to England?

you ever ship

Sir EDMUND BARTON: Yes, we tried, but had a good many losses.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: I do not know that it is a practical question with you.

Sir EDMUND BARTON: It may become so.

Sir WILLIAM MULOCK: Mr. Chamberlain suggested that it affected Canada and the Mother Country, and it was referred to the Minister for Agriculture.

Sir EDMUND BARTON: As to the question of decimal coinage, a Select Committee of the Federal Parliament sat on the question during the present Session, and brought up a strong report in favour of it, but the question has been raised whether the alteration of the weights and measures to the metrical system should not precede it. I have no means of ascertaining so far how far public opinion points to the change in Australia.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I understand there would be strong objections to the alteration of the currency. Perhaps next Session bring on a resolution.

you

would

Mr. SEDDON: The next business is stamp duty on Colonial bonds.

Sir EDMUND BARTON: No, I stated that I would not make a proposal to the Conference, but would probably make a communication to the Secretary of State subsequently.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: That really concludes the business, except that we have to have one more meeting about naval and military defence and also in regard to the resolution on preferential tariff.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: These two questions would be sure to lead to some discussion, and it is now nearly one o'clock. The question is whether we should not have two meetings for them instead of one.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: Yes, I am in a difficulty now, I am afraid we cannot do anything to-morrow (Wednesday) because we should not have had the memoranda from the naval and military authorities before us, and therefore I was going to suggest that we should meet on Friday.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: We must consult the convenience of these two Departments.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: If we cannot finish on Friday morning, which I think is possible, we might perhaps meet on Friday afternoon.

Sir EDMUND BARTON: I am informed that on Friday afternoon there

is an investiture by the King.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: At what time?

Sir EDMUND BARTON: Three o'clock.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: In that case I should prefer Monday to Tuesday, but we can meet on the Monday or Tuesday.

The next meeting then will be Friday at 11.

(Adjourned till Friday next at 11 a.m.)

NINTH DAY.

Friday, August 8th, 1902.

PRESENT:-

The Right Honourable J. CHAMBERLAIN, M.P., His Majesty's

Secretary of State for the Colonies.

The Right Honourable Sir WILFRID LAURIER, G.C.M.G., Premier of

Canada.

The Right Honourable Sir EDMUND BARTON, G.C.M.G., D.C.L., Premier

of Australia.

The Right Honourable R. J. SEDDON, Premior of New Zealand. The Honourable THOS. EKINS FOLLER, for the Right Honourable Sir

J. GORDON SPRIGG, G.C.M.G., Premier of Cape Colony.

The Right Honourable Sir ALBERT HIME, K.C.M.G., Premier of Natal. The Right Honourable Sir ROBERT BOND, K.C.M.G., Premier of

Newfoundland.

The Earl of ONSLOW, G.C.M.G., Parliamentary Under-Secretary of

State for the Colonies.

Sir M. F. OMMANNEY, K.C.B., K.C.M.G., Permanent Under-Secretary of

State for the Colonies.

Sir JOHN ANDERSON, K.C.M.G., Secretary.

PRESENT AL80:-

The Right Honourable ST. JOHN BRODRICK, M.P., His Majesty's

Secretary of State for War.

The Right Honourable The Earl of SELBORNE, the First Lord of the

Admiralty.

Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER, M.P., Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to

the Admiralty.

Rear-Admiral R. N. CUSTANCE.

The Right Honourable GERALD BALFOUR, M.P., the President of the

Board of Trade.

Sir FRANCIS HOPWOOD, K.C.B., C.M.G., Permanent Secretary to the

Board of Trade.

Sir ALFRED BATEMAN, K.C.M.G.

The Honourable W. PATERSON, Minister of Customs for the Dominion of

Canada.

The Honourable W. S. FIELDING, Minister of Finance for the Dominion

of Canada.

The Honourable Sir FREDERICK BORDEN, K.O.M.G., Minister of Militia

and Defence for the Dominion "of Canada.

The Honourable Sir WILLIAM MULOCK, K.C.M.G., Postmaster-Genera]

for the Dominion of Canada.

Mr. T. W. HOLDERNESS, C.S.I., for the India Office.

COLONIAL NAVAL AND MILITARY CADETS.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: As usual, we find ourselves a little hampered, I am afraid, by important engagements of some of our number. The Appropriation Bill is on to-day in the House of Commons, and the Secretary of State for War has to return there in order to answer some questions. X 4

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I think, therefore, that in the first instance we had better take the resolution that is down on the paper with regard to naval and military cadets. As regards the proposal in the resolution to increase the number of such candi- dates, and that greater facilities should be given to enable young Colonists to enter the Navy and the Army, I will leave my colleagues of the Admiralty and the War Office to discuss the matter with the Prime Ministers, but as regards the last sentence in the resolution I must make an appeal to Mr. Seddon to withdraw it. The last sentence is: "That those officers with only limited means may be enabled to maintain adequately their position tap officers and remain in His Majesty's service." If that means anything, it means that Prime Ministers are asked to recommend to Ilis Majesty's Government an alteration in the organization or at any rate the pay of the officers of the British Army. Now, I really think that upon reflection the Prime Ministers will see that it will be going a little beyond the scope of such a Conference as this. I do not think that if we were to make similar suggestions which must strike us with regard to the present arrangements in connection with the discipline and the remuneration of the Colonial services, that the Colonial Ministers would be willing to discuss it with us. I think they would naturally say: That that is entirely a matter for us," and therefore I would suggest reciprocally to Mr. Seddon that that last paragraph should be omitted, and that we should meroly discuss the number of cadetships to be allotted.

Mr. SEDDON: I should be most happy to fall in with the suggestion if the construction placed upon that paragraph by the Secretary of State was the right construction, but I claim that it is not what was intended, and what I wished to make clear was this, that all the pay, they now receive. if it were not for other conditions which the officers themselves bring about, owing to custom and practice, and which is countenanced, the pay is sufficient, but it is a well-known fact throughout the Colonies that, the sons of men of limited means cannot, under existing conditions, maintain their position as officers in the Army, and it is on account of that, and it is not on the question of pay. It is the expensive way of living which is countenanced by the officers themselves and which is well known, and time after time in a disagreeable way it comes up. Only the other day one of the officers in a cavalry regiment, whose father was allowing him 2007. a year, told me that he would have to throw it up, that it was impossible to get on unless you fell in with the practices, otherwise you would place yourself in a false position with your brother officers. And it is with a view to remedying this and not with a view of increasing the pay that that addition has been made to the resolution. And then there is another thing. You have had a case here the other day in the Horse Guards. There is a case on record where a subaltern from the Colonies refused to fall in with the surroundings, bitterness was.cugendered, and it resulted ultimately in a most deplorable condition of things, so much so that when enquiries were made into it, the Colonel was dismissed, or called upon to retire on account of the affair, and other officers were also punished. As far as we could gather there was nothing at all against the young man except that he had not the means to carry on and do as the others were doing. That is the reason why I added the words of the last paragraph of the motion. We do not at all object to the present rate of pay. believe myself that the present rate is sufficient if we can do something to remedy the state of things which now exists, and which I beg leave to say must be known to the Department, as this is not the first time that this question has been brought up.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: I beg pardon. Before anything is put, as a matter of order, I think my friend Mr. Seddon's explanation makes the matter much worse, because what he really invites us to do is to enter into a discussion on the discipline and the practice and the conditions of the British Army, and really on behalf of His Majesty's Government, I could not undertake a discussion of the kind in the present Conference.

The SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR: In explanation, there is one word 'I may say. Of course this is a matter in which we are very

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much interested, reducing the expenses of officers so as to enable, as far as may be, a man of limited means to remain in the Army, but it must. be recollected that our candidates for the Army are three, perhaps four, in number for every commission we can give; and there is a natural indisposition on the part of Parliament to meet a very heavy charge in order, not to interfere with the stamp of officers-because if you have only to take one out of four, you ought to get a very good man--but to make provision for a class of officer who cannot find 501.. or from that to 100l. a year to supplement the pay. I only want to say one word.. I quite agree with the Secretary of State for the Colonies, that we cannot enter into a discussion of the discipline of the Army here, but I say this, that there have be. cases in which Colonials--one or two Colonial officers have not found themselves comfortable in regiments, and in these cases it is often found to be due not to insufficiency of means, whether it affects an Englishman or a Colonial, but, as a matter of fact in either case it generally happens that the oflicer in question has as a rule rather mistaken his profession, or is not a congruous person with his brother officers. The only difference in the two cases is that when this happens with regard to an Englishman, we hear nothing about it, but that when it happens to be a Colonial, it excites some feeling in the Colony, but I can assure Mr. Seddon that the War Office take good care that there is the utmost equality shown in the treatment of all classes of officers.

Mr. SEDDON: In that case, in the face of what has been said by the Secretary of State for the Colonies, I shall not press the latter part of the resolution, although I must confess I thought that a question in which the Colonies wero as much concerned as the Mother Country, for you have cadet candidates from the Colonies, and special arrangements are made for their admission to the Army. Having made new regulations, and made special provisions that they should enter into the Army, I should have thought it was our duty, if they were placed 'at a disadvantage, that we should discuss it, but seeing the Secretary of State for the Colonies does not think so, and the Secretary of State for War does not think so, I will not press that malter any further. I will take another opportunity or means of bringing it forward.

some other

The SECRETARY OF STATE: Then, Mr. Sedɗon, do you wish to add anything to your resolution in regard to the first two paragraphs?

Mr. SEDDON: Yes; it is quite clear that under the altered conditions, there must be amended regulations. There is no provision made, of course, for the Commonwealth of Australia, relative to the admission, it was formorly the different States which had a number of cadets allotted to them. I think there are two to Victoria; two to New South Wales; one to Tasmania every two years; and so on. Now, there are two questions involved, one is, as I have said, owing to the Commonwealth being now created, I take it you will recognise the Commonwealth in respect to admissions of cadets for the Army and Navy the same as you have done Canada. Then with the increasing population, and the increased military spirit and desire we think that there ought to be an increased number of cadets from the dominions beyond the seas. And then there is another question, and that is as to the conditions of admis sions and the conditions in which candidates are to be examined and are passed. There is no doubt you have advantages in the Mother Country which we have not in the Colonies. I think a reconsideration of the subjects--the pass subject- - should be given. I have often heard complaints from can lidates in the Colonies, and from these would-be candidates, that your present regulations require remodelling. On this point I received a cable last night from the Acting Prime Minister of New Zealand that the matter has been brought forward. I do not know whether it has been brought forward in the House of Representatives in New Zealand or otherwise, but he says there is a very strong feeling there, and he hopes I will press for a reconsideration and amendment. The time is so limited this morning that I shall not say anything further now. I hope the resolution will commend itself to His

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