CO885-(7-8)-2 — Page 23

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O. 882

7 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

Mr. J. Heimi.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :

852 Then demonetise the Mexican dollar and the British dollar ?—Yes.

853. And after that follow the Indian plan -Follow 2 Dec. 1902. the Indian plan as far as practical.

Mr.

8. R. Carr.

(Mr. Adamson.) That is a limitation of the supply. (Chairman) Not adding to it.

(Mr. Blain.) It is a limitation of the supply of the special dollar.

(Mr. Adamson.) Of the special dollar.

(Mr. Blain.) Which need not be inconsistent with an absolutely free circulation of the Mexican dollar.

854. (Mr. Adamson.) Do you not think, from your ex- perience of the Straite, that if you had this limited special supply of dollars, the other dollars would go is a currency alongside; there might be two cur- rencies; 1 will give you an instance: Deli?-Oli, yes, that might happen; I do not think that would be a groat disadvantage.

855. But do you think it would occur?-It might possibly happen if there was a scarcity.

856. (('hairman.) If the people found that it suited them, they would no doubt follow that plan -They would.

857. And if it suited them, there would not be much objection to it, would there 7-There would not be.

868. (Mr. Adamson.) Do you not think there would bo this objection, that if a Chinaman bought his goods from you, and you said, “I want to be paid in the now dollar," and he went to your competitor, and he said, "Well, all right. I will let you pay me in the old dollar," that there might then come a clashing of interests which would upset the currency -I do not think so.

859. By competition ?-It is only a matter of cal- culation by the merchant. If he came to me, and I put my price in the Straits dollar, the currency of the country, and he said, "I want to pay you the other dollars." I would say, "All right, I will take the other dollars at such-and-such."

860. I will put it in another way: You are aware that the imports are sold on a credit basis?—Yes.

861. One, two, or three months ?—Yes.

862. The Chinaman, when he comes to pay, getting his money from the different countries to which he has exported his goods, finds that there has been a great fall in silver, would not that make his goods much dearer than when he started; would it not make the goods much dearer than when he bought them?— I do not think so.

863. If he was paid in silver in the country he ex- ported to, and had to send his dollars back to Sings- pore, and found that there had been a fall in silver in the meantime 7-A Chinaman is 'cute enough that he would take a sufficient margin to cover himself for that.

864. That is another thing; my point is this, that in the inevitable competition which would ensue, he would go to you, or go to another firm, and the firm that would guarantee him the exchange would be the firm he would give his orders to, and you would have two currencies going at the same time 2-That comes to the same thing then; the firm with whom he made his arrangement would take the risk into considera- tion, and arrange the price accordingly.

865. Precisely, as they do at present?-That is only an accommodation which they would make; that is not a change of the system.

Mr. S. R. CARE, called; and Examined,

866. (Chairman.) You belong to the firm of John Little and Co., Ltd. ?—Yes, I am the managing director,

867. Where does that firm do business 7-In Singa purt.

868. Only in Singapore 7-That is the only estab lishment, but we do all round the neighbouring States a large business as far as Borneo, Siam, and the native States.

869. Have you ever lived in Singapore yourself for any time?—Yes, sir, for 22 years.

.870. When were you there last ?-I left in 1894.

871. What is the nature of your business, chiefly?— We are generally called the Whiteley of the East; I think it will give you a very good idea of our business. 872. You sell imports of all kinds?-We sell im- ports of all kinds.

873. Do you export, too-No.

874. You do not export?—Not to this country.

875. How has the fall in exchange affected your business? Well, it has affected us detrimentally.

876. In what way --Well, the sales are not so large as they were, and we are selling a cheaper article now than we did years ago, to make up for the fall in exolmuge.

877. Do I understand you to say that prices have not risen in silver, in proportion to the fall in exchange, and that consequently, you sell a cheaper article

In many cases, yes.

878. The purchaser not being willing to raise the price proportionately to the fall in exchange, you meet the difficulty by selling a cheaper article?-Many are not in the position to do it; being paid on the dollar salaries they cannot do it,

879. But if your sales are the same, the rate of profit is the same: there is no loss?-I think our sales, des netual turnover, probably are equal to what they were, the profits I do not think are much less.

880. Not much less?—Not much less, in dollars that is.

881. But when you turn the profits into gold, they would be less?—Well, sir, I have just got this memo- randum hore ! ---

2ud December, 1902.

Jolu Lättle and Co., Singapore, turned into John Little and Co., Limited, on 1st July, 1804, with a

·

capital, out there, of £67,062 96. 8d., at exchange st that date of 2. 1d. 8634,191.01.

1st July, 1902, the same capital, ie., £67,052 9. 8d., at exchange of the day (1s, 84d.) $780,247.08

634,191.01

$146,056.07 loss in dollars since the company started.

1st July, 1901, the same capital, at

ex, 1s. 11 11-16.

1st May, 1902, the same capital,

a 15. 8id.

Loss W/o profit and loss account for one year to keep sterling capital intact. $100,877.27, at ox. 1s. 8jd.

Nett profit for the year (a fair

yeur), $78,339.50, at ex, 18.8fd. -

-$679,370.81

780,247.08

$100,877,27

£8,669 1 1

6.732 6 0

£1,936 15 1

So that we can pay our shareholders no dividend, and have a deficit of £1,936 15s. 1d, after our year's work and anxiety, through no fault of our own, all because we have to deal in a currency which is never the same for two days together, and has fallen (ex- cepting a few artificial spurts) for more than thirty A fixed rate of 2s, would, I am convinced, years. ruit everyone, and money would flow into the native States freely to open them up.

882. I have got your figures here. The evidence given before this Commission may be published. I do not know whether you would care to have these figures pub- lished or not I have not the slightest objection, sir.

883. You have not ?-No; it is only a very fair busi- ness profit, a matter of 8 per cent., shown on a large business done out in Singapore. I think it is nothing but what might be published; and not only that, we are so well known for honourable dealing for 60 years, I do not think there is anything that need be concealed.

884. Very often firms do not like to publish such figures; we shall be very glad to publish them, if you give the figures P-I think we might venture to do it."

COMMITTEE ON STRAITS SETTLEMENTS CURRENCY.

885. Then I understand you to say that between 1894 and 1902 you had to write off 8146,000 odd-We had to write off $146,000 odd to keep our small capital out there intact in sterling.

886. And that at 15, 8jd,?—Is a matter of over £12,000. May I point out that that was in June, 1902, and the fall since then has been nearly, I should say, 8 or 9 per cent.

887. Between 1st July, 1901, and 1st July, 1902- That is our year; yes, sir.

888. That year it was £8,669 18. ld. ?-That is so, and our profits were £6,732 65.

889. In fact, the loss on your capital rather exceeded your total profits for that year?-By £2,000. With- out paying dividend at all, we have a deficit of £2,000.

890. Are you in favour of the establishment of a gold standard in the Straits Settlemente ?-Of a fixed rate of exchange, you,

891. Well, that means a gold standard ?--Yes; that does not mean necessarily a gold currency,

892. No. Do you think there would be any objec- tions to the establishment of a gold standard in the Straits Settlements ?—I think at the present time those who objected some time ago would only jump at the idea.

893. I did not mean to ask what were the opinions of people in Singapore, but what are the objections to the establishment of a gold standard? Well, the only objection I heard was dealing with the silver people in the other States, the people that still retain the silver: but that, I think, is a matter that you may certainly leave to the Chinese to get over in a very short time.

894. And if those States that trade with Singapore, and are now on a silver basis, adopted a gold standard, that objection would not be of the same weight ?—No, sir: I think it would do away with it altogethør.

895. For example, you may have seen that they have stopped the coinage of silver in Siam?-Exactly, that bears on the question, Siam being one of our biggent markets.

806. And they appear to be considering the question in French China?—Yes; and I believe America has been considering the question of establishing a gold standard in the Philippines.

897. Well, I have no definite information on the sub- ject. Are you prepared to give any evidence as to the

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method of introducing a gold standard?—No, sir; 1

Me have heard several, but I do not know sufficient about it, S. R. Carr.

No.

898. Is there anything else you would like to add ?—

I think this represents the position of the majority 2 Dec. 1908. who are solely importers in the Straits

899. You think your case fairly represents the case of the importer?—Quite so, yes.

900, (fr. Blain.) I would like to ask about the de- preciation of your capital out there, which you said in one year amounted, I think, to £8,0007-This year, which has just closed on the 30th of June, yes, sir.

901. Of course, that does not mean that you lost £8,000 in the sense that you had to pay away £8,000? -No, but we had to write that from our proft and loss account to keep out capital out there intact in sterling.

902. You are a limited liability company in this country-On a sterling basis.

903. And it is merely because of legal requirements that you had to do that?—No; it was the wish of our seniors, who thought it would be more satisfactory for the relief of their children to leave the shares in sterling. If we had not been on a gold basis, sir, and we hail paid our dividend the same, our £20 shares, which at that time were worth £20, and which are now, would only be worth £14 10s. ; and if we had kept them on a dollar basis we would only have had £14 10s. capital interest instead of £20.

904. But when you arrived at the amount of depre ciation you had sustained in this particular year, you calculated that at £8,000. That means taking the value, I suppose, of your premises, and the stock-in- trade in Singapore in dollars?-That is simply taking the capital that was out there when we turned it into a limited company-the partners' balances, which were in stock and book debta. "Our actual capital is £75,000, but this £66,000 is the partners' balances from the private ledger at that date, turned from dollars into sterling.

905. It is all represented by stock and book debts? -Every bit.

loss.

906. And that is a real loss-And that is a real

907. Because as long as exchange in at its present level you would only be able to sell those things at the reduced prices ?-Certainly.

FOURTH DAY,

Tuesday, 9th December, 1902,

PRESENT:

Sir DAVID BARBOUR, K.C.A.I., K.C.M.G., (Chairman), prosiding.

Mr. W. ADAMSON, C.M-II. Mr. G. W. JOHNSON.

Mr. W. BLAIN.

Mr. A. E. COLLINS, Secretary.

Mr. G. W. BUTT, called in; and Examined.

Shanghai Bank-Yes; the Singapore branch of the B08. (Chairman) You have resided in the East, I

Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank. believe?—Yes; I have been in Singapore for eight or

G. W. Butt. nine years.

916. And that bank has transactions all over the East ?—Yes.

909. In what places?—The last nine years in Singa

pore.

910. And before that?-Before that I have been in Hong Kong, Shanghai, Japan, New York.

911. How many years did you spend in the East altogether?-24 years.

912. And you have been about eight or nine years in the Straits Settlements?-The last eight or nine years as manager in Singapore.

913. And I believe you have been managing a bank there ?—Yes.

914. What bank was that ?-The Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank.

915. The Straita branch of the Hong Kong and 6841).

017. From India to China?—Yes. 918. So that you are familiar with all banking questions and exchange questions that arise in the in the East We are supposed to.

919. As manager of the Straits Settlements branch of the Hong Kong and Shangbai Bank for eight or nins years you would necessarily be so? –We ought to be.

920. You think that silver is the most suitable cur- rancy for the East?—I think that silver in the most suitable currency for the East generally.

921. Generally?—For the dealing with nativet, Gold is too exponsive; it is too dear for them, and where you have the two, gold or silver. silver is naturally preferable.

Mr

9 Dec. 1992.

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