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and enlightened principles of philanthropy we all know that circumstances sometimes raise issues in such a form that self-preservation has to be studied rather than abstract theory and sentiment. If we were at the distance from China and Japan that England is I think we should probably be on a very high platform in this matter, and look with some distaste upon the principle of such legislation, but living as we do, and being only young nations, as we are, within so short a distance of these enormous numbers of persons, and seeing the growth of energetic policy in those regions which we see already has created a serious situation in one part of the Pacific, we want to avoid complications by a course of policy which may and probably will prevent them. You can understand well that if, for instance, the Japanese are settled in our Colony in considerable number you might then have the germ of a far more serious question with Japan, as to the treatment of those persons. It seems strongly to the Government of New South Wales that it is infinitely better that we should say what we mean with reference to that by excluding them than by having them in our population where they might be treated and have been treated brutally by evil disposed persons, or persons who, though perhaps not evil disposed, have some very strong feelings on this subject. It is infinitely better it seems to us that they should be kept out than that we should have a perpetual sore within, and occurrences which are regretable, and which might lead to far more serious complications with those coloured powers than at present. So that upon the whole. I really feel it my duty on behalf of the Colony I represent, to press most earnestly upon Her Majesty's Goverment the very great gravity of this measure, and our strong belief that there would be less embarrassment to the Imperial Government by such legislation, then there might be if such legislation were not passed.

The Secretary of State.] Of course, Mr. Reid, the difference is very great between British subjects and other coloured races, and New Zealand has made that distinction which places their legislation in a different category from yours.

Sir E. N. C. Braddon.] And our Bill excludes British subjects from the operation of the Act?

The Secretary of State.] Yes, your Bill excludes British subjects. There is I a slight verbal alteration I might ask you to make, but that is the case. think the two Bills which are the strongest are South Australia and New South Wales, and I would ask you to consider whether some distinction might not be made with regard to British subjects too. For instance, I understand that you are no less afraid of extensive immigration of Indian and British subjects than you are of Chinese and Japanese, and that you must claim to protect yourselves against such immigration; but might it not be possible to distinguish in the case of British subjects to adopt the principle of the Natal Bill, and to exclude them not as Indians, but as persons who from their pauper condition, or from ignorance, are unfitted to colonise in your country. I should say that we should in that event take every step in our power to discourage immigration from India, pointing out the difficulties which they would at present subject themselves to, and the improbability that they would be received; and through the Indian Government we should do all in our power to discourage it, certainly having regard to the very strong feeling which you have expressed, and which I know exists. I accept have said as fairly and only fairly expressing the feeling in every word you the country.

Mr. Reid.] That is a most serious question. I, of course, omitted to deal with that; we do feel your position very keenly in the matter; but as regards the poverty test, past experience has shown that the most objection- able feature of such immigration exists on such terms that that would be no bar because arrangements are made, agreements are entered into, say in Hong Kong and China, with the Chinese, and they do not come under the category of poverty, they come to the country under agreements for terms of service. They land in a perfectly independent position; they are not paupers. That is one of the difficulties as to the poverty test. Then as to the ignorance, there again it does seem to me that I should be trifling with the gravity of the subject if I really made the country open to all coloured

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persons who could get up sufficient English to write in a certain form. might alter the form and so on; but it seems to me that it would be beneath our intention, beneath our settled conviction altogether to evade the matter in this way. Of course I could point out to you Acts of which we were aware when we passed this Bill, in which the British Government did not raise objections to general legislation affecting and including Her Majesty's subjects, amongst For instance, there was a Bill other persons Her Majesty's coloured subjects.

I assented to which came from Canada, or one of the Provinces of Canada. do not know whether it was the Dominion or one of the provinces which severely restricted this immigration, and had no saving clause as to British subjects. There was a Chinese Bill before this in South Australia of a similar kind, which was also assented to by Her Majesty's Government, though I admit that was not so large a question as this.

The Secretary of State.] No.

Mr. Reid.] Chinese settlements are very small; but still they are open to all sorts of enlargement. Still I put frankly to you, sir, the state of feeling in Australia, and the reasons for it, and inasmuch as very few of Her Majesty's Indian subjects can possibly be affected, because if a large number were, that would point of course to the strength of my argument for the necessity of such legislation, so that a large Indian influx would be just as serious to us as a large Chinese or Japanese influx,

Sir E. N. C. Braddon.] Much worse.

I may

Mr. Reid.] Really much worse, so that assuming therefore a state of things, the only tolerable state of things, in which the number would be few, the injury would be to few, because it would apply only to a few persons. assure you that those particular persons who come from India are the most undesirable persons perhaps in India.

Sir E. N. C. Braddon.] There are a great many undesirable persons in India.

The Secretary of State.] Yes, oh certainly, and there can be no possible objection to your excluding undesirable persons.

Mr. Reid.] How are we to know?

The Secretary of State.] If you would define them otherwise than by race and colour.

Sir E. N. C. Braddon.] I should be very glad to accept the provision of the Natal Act

Mr. Reid.] I should like before Sir Edward addresses you-I should like to finish what I have to say on the particular point which you have put to me. The greatest embarrassment, I should think, that any practical diplomatist could feel is in regard to countries perhaps like Japan; still it takes away very much the sort of sting of this legislation when Her Majesty's Government can point out that the feeling in Australia is so strong that Her Majesty's Government cannot interfere sufficiently to prevent a large mass of Indian coloured subjects from being excluded; it puts the matter it seems to me-the injury being to only a few and the door being open to persons that I have mentioned fully as before, it seems to me that the very fact that Government assented to a measure including Her Majesty's Indian subjects as well as other coloured races would do much to take away and remove much of the sting ?

The Secretary of State.] I think the answer to that is that Japan and China have both submitted to this legislation. Japan in its recent treaty has come to a special agreement with Queensland in regard to it, and although it is possible that some day or other the question of retaliation may arise

Mr. Reid.] Quite so.

The Secretary of State.] It will be sufficient to leave that to be discussed then.

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