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FOURTH DAY.

Monday, 5th July 1897.

PRESENT

The Right Honourable Joseph CHAMBERLAIN, M.P., in the Chair.

The Right Honourable The EARL OF SELBORNE, Parliamentary Under

Secretary of State for the Colonies.

SIR JOHN BRAMSTON, K.C.M.G., C.B., First Assistant Under Secretary of

State for the Colonies.

PREMIERS:

The Right Honourable SIR WILFRID Laurier, G.C.M.G., Q.C., Canada. The Right Honourable G. H. REID, New South Wales.

The Right Honourable SIR GEORGE TURNER, K.C.M.G., Victoria. The Right Honourable RICHARD JOHN SEDDON, New Zealand,

The Right Honourable SIR HUGH MUIR NELSON, K.C.M.G., Queensland.

The Right Honourable SIR GORDON SPRIGG, K.C.M.G., Cape.

The Right Honourable C. C. Kingston, Q.C., South Australia.

The Right Honourable SIR WILLIAM V. WHITEWAY, K.C.M.G., Q.C.,

Newfoundland.

The Right Honourable SIB E. N. C. BRADDON, K.C.M.G., Tasmania. The Right Honourable SIR JOHN FORREST, K.C.M.G., F.R.G.S., Western

Australia.

The Right Honourable HARRY ESCOMBE, Q.C., Natal.

MR. JOHN ANDERSON (Secretary).

Private Secretaries to MR. CHAMBERLAIN:

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of course commits myself only-it does not commit anybody else and then should Bay that the subjects referred to there were discussed, an interchange of views taking place upon the subjects mentioned there, and the following resolutions were passed, giving the resolutions to which we have arrived, but, unless it is otherwise desired, not reporting anything that has been said by anybody else.

Mr. Reid.] I think that would exactly meet the case.

Sir E. N. C. Braddon.] Including the speech.

The Secretary of State.] That does give the views of the Imperial Govern- ment, and therefore might be given.

Mr. Keid.] We will ask every one to believe that we were equally sensible and pointed in all we said afterwards.

TRADE RELATIONS WITH Japan.

The Secretary of State.] Our proceedings have been very businesslike; that is all. Now, then, we have to ask for your answers about the two treaties. In the first place, as to Japan, is there anything new there, or am I to take it that those Colonies which have not already joined do not desire to join?

Mr. Reid.] New South Wales says so.

Sir William Whiteway.] I have no objection at all to join it; so far as it concerns our Colony, we are very little affected by it.

The Secretary of State.] It will have a very small effect, I suppose. I will just take this in the form of a statement. It will be an official statement.

In the first place, I will take those who do not join. The Colonies of New South Wales-can anyone speak for Victoria?

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] Canada has already signified its dissent.

The Secretary of State.] Canada, New South Wales; I think Victoria-I cannot speak for Sir George-Tasmania declines, Queensland joins.

Sir Hugh Nelson.] Yes.

The Secretary of State.] South Australia, I think?

Mr. Kingston.] Declines.

The Secretary of State.] Declines; and Western Australia declines. Sir John Forrest.] Yes.

The Secretary of State.] Sir George, do you still express the opinion that

do not desire to join the Japan treaty?

Sir George Turner.] We will not join.

you

MR. H. F. WILSON, LORD AMPTHILL, The Honourable T. H. COCHRANE,

M.P., and MR. H. J. READ.

The Secretary of State.] I have here a copy of some speeches of mine which chiefly deal with Colonial affairs, and I shall ask you to accept it from me as a memento of your visit.

Mr. Reid.] We shall accept it with great pleasure, all the more as it gives us a likeness of yourself.

The Secretary of State.] And it bears my signature. I understood that the Premiers had agreed, and I think wisely, that we should not make any publication of our discussions which have been in the nature of conversations. I do not see any advantage in publishing them; at the same time I think it would be expected that something should be said of our meetings, and I wish to know what view you would take upon the subject, whether you would object to what we would call an official statement, which I should like if possible should include the speech with which I opened the proceedings, which

The Secretary of State.] Cape Colony?

Sir Gordon Sprigg.] I think we will decline.

The Secretary of State.] And Natal ?

Mr. Harry Escombe.] Natal, I understand, has joined.

The Secretary of State.] Natal has joined; the Colonies of Canada, New South Wales, Victoria, New Zealand, Cape Colony, South Australia, Tasmania, and Western Australia-

Mr. Reid.] Are not prepared to abandon their former attitude. That is the better way to put it; we do not want to multiply refusals-simply we do not change our former attitude.

Sir E. N. C. Braddon.] At our Sydney Conference we decided not to avail ourselves of the opportunity.

Mr. Reid.] Quite so. We do not need to put it as if we again refuse; that is not necessary; we simply retain our former attitude, that is all.

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TREATY WITH JAPAN.

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TREATY WITH JAPAN,

TREATY WITH TUNIS.

PARIS EXHIBITION

OF 1900.

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The Secretary of State.] These Colonies are not prepared to abandon their former attitude with regard to the treaty with Japan, to which they do not desire to adhere. The Colonies of Queensland, Newfoundland, and Natal are willing to join.

Sir Hugh Nelson.] Subject to modifications as to artisans. That is a most important point.

TRADE RELATIONS WITH TUNIS.

The Secretary of State.] Then as regards Tunie; do you desire to be included in the treaty with Tunis?

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] I do not think we do, sir; at least, I would not like to commit myself finally, until I have reported to the Government of Canada, but at the present time, sir, we do not.

The Secretary of State.] Mr. Reid, what have you to say about it?

Mr. Reid.] Ditto.

The Secretary of State.] Sir George Turner?

Sir George Turner.] I take up the same position.

The Secretary of State.] Sir Hugh?

Sir Hugh Nelson.] I take the same view that has been expressed.

The Secretary of State.] Sir Edward?

Sir Edward Braddon.] The same.

The Secretary of State.] Mr. Kingston?

Mr. Kingston.] The same.

The Secretary of State.] Sir John Forrest?

Sir John Forrest.] The same.

The Secretary of State.] Sir Gordon Sprigg?

Sir Gordon Sprigg.] The same.

The Secretary of State.] Sir William Whiteway?

Sir William Whiteway.] No objection to join.

The Secretary of State.] Mr. Escombe-Natal ?

Mr. Escombe.] I have no wish to be singular, sir.

Mr. Reid.] At the present time our not wishing to join rather frees the British Government from the necessity of urging our claims, and we really have no trade that makes it worth while.

Sir Hugh Nelson.] It does not affect our industries.

Mr. Reid.] If we did desire to join the treaty it would involve representation on the part of the British Government, which our position renders unnecessary.

The Secretary of State.] Then that will read "The Colonies of Canada, "New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, the Cape, South Australia, Tasmania, Western Australia, and Natal do not desire to be included in "the treaty with France in regard to Tunia." The Colony of Newfoundland desires to be included. Mr. Seddon is not here. I must get his opinion afterwards. I have no doubt his opinion is the same in regard to both of them.

PARIS EXHIBITION OF 1900.

Well, the next point is as regards the Paris Exhibition.

Mr. Reid.] A. change seems to have come over us in respect of that exhibition since we spoke about it last Friday.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] What change?

Mr. Reid.] It has developed; I think that some of us are not so keen about it.

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Sir John Forrest.]. The reason why that change has come about, and the PARIS EXHIBITION reason why we are not so keen about it, is that originally it was proposed that

we should all exhibit together in one British Court.

The Secretary of State.] That was my wish and my desire.

Sir John Forrest.] Now it comes to a very different thing; I understand that we are to be all separated.

The Secretary of State.] It is a different thing,

Sir John Forrest.] It would be so very nice if we were all together.

Mr. Wilfrid Laurier.] All the Colonies together.

Mr. Reid.] In the Imperial Court.

The Secretary of State.] We have done our best to obtain from the French Government facilities for the exhibition of the Empire as a whole, all in one building. That has been absolutely refused to us, and an alternative offer has been made, which they say is the only thing they can offer that is, to lay out a large space opposite the space allotted to the exhibits of the French Colonies, where the products of the British Colonies could be represented. It is a concession to us, or, at least, to our Colonial Empire, that this separate and favourably situated place is put at our disposal. At the same time it is not the same thing as we originally intended.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] It seems to me that if we are to take the view of the French Government the Colonies will be nowhere. They have no colonies to speak of.

The Secretary of State.] They make a great show with such places as Algeria and Tunis, some of their African possessions; but they are not colonies in our sense of the word. But they do make a very great show. Algeria is, of course, a very important colony, and can make a very large exhibition of produce.

Mr. Reid. I am rather in favour of New South Wales being represented. We fully decided to be; but, of course, I might be influenced by what others may say not to be. We are going to have an exhibition in Sydney, and if they would be represented there I do not wish to disjoin in reference to Paris; but if they will not be represented there I do not see any reason for going to Paris, but that is a private matter.

The Secretary of State.] Of course, if any of the Colonies or important Colonies decline to exhibit there will be a further complication; that is to say; the ground that is placed at our disposal may be altogether too large, and it would not do to have a shabby exhibition.

Sir Hugh Nelson.] That is the position we are in now. Queensland agreed Unless all the in the first place to exhibit, but Victoria has not decided. Australian Colonies agree together, it will be hardly worth while New South Wales and Queenslaud agreeing.

Mr. Kingston.] Our individual inclination is not to incur any expense in connexion with the Paris Exhibition. At the same time there would perhaps be a disposition on our part to join in anything which all the other Colonies desired to do.

Sir George Turner.] As far as Victoria is concerned, we would be perfectly willing to spend a certain amount of money to join in any display on the part of the Empire. We do not think that we have anything at all to gain by the products of the Colony being exhibited there in any shape or form. We do not feel inclined to spend money on what would be simply a Colonial exhibition.

Sir John Forrest.] It is generally felt that we can send nothing there without our paying duty for it; they do not encourage trade with us at all.

Sir Hugh Nelson.] They are very large consumers of some of our products.

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UF 1900.