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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O. 885

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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LOAD LINES.

NAVAL DEFENCE.

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build wooden ships in Canada which float much higher than the steel and iron ships of England; is not that so.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] I could not tell you.

The Secretary of State.] Canada must be included.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] The Minister of Marine and Fishery will be here next week, and he can talk the matter over; I do not know how the question stands.

Sir John Bramston.] I know we had it at one time.

NAVAL DEFENCE.

The Secretary of State.] I think it was understood that we should take up the question of naval and military defence.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] Yes.

The Secretary of State.] And, of course, we are in this position that we have, at the present time, the arrangement running with the Australasian Colonies under which they make a contribution on certain conditions; we have from the Cape an offer which has not yet, I think, been formulated, but to which Sir Gordon Sprigg referred; Canada has made no offer; I do not know whether the most convenient plan might not be to ask Captain Beaumont, who is here on behalf of the Admiralty, to state what the Admiralty feel with regard to the present arrangement with Australasia. Sir George Turner would be glad if you would tell the Conference exactly what the present arrangements are and what modifications, if any, the Admiralty desire, and the reasons why they desire them.

Captain Beaumont.] I am sorry, sir, that I am not in a position to speak for the Admiralty; I have not received instructions on that point, but having had an opportunity of hearing the subject discussed at the Colonial Defence Committee, I might, as a member of that committee, give the view of the committee.

The Secretary of State.] Please will you state first what the present arrangement is.

Captain Beaumont.] Stating it from memory, the present arrangement is that a certain contribution is made from each Colony for the support of a certain number of ships; certain of those ships being at the entire disposal of the Imperial authorities, but restricted in their action, both in peace and war, to certain limits round the Australian Continent. The number of ships that are actually kept in commission during peace time is less than the total number of ships that are supported by the Australian contribution, but the arrangement is that on the outbreak of war the full number shall be put into commission, and that a certain proportion of that number shall be kept in New Zealand waters.

Sir Gordon Sprigg.] Would you be kind enough to state what the contri-

bution amounts to ?

Captain Beaumont.] I could not say what it is.

Sir George Turner.] It is about 120,000l. a year..

Captain Beaumont.] If I had thought that that would have been wanted I would have brought the actual agreement.

Sir George Turner.] The actual agreement is a schedule to one of our Victorian Acts. If we could get the Victorian volume, or the South Australian volume, we could very soon pick it out for you, about 1887.

Mr. Kingston.] It is 1887.

Captain Beaumont.] But the whole point turns upon the conditions which are made with regard to the use of the ships; both in peace and war the

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contribution depends upon the ships remaining within the Australian waters, NAVAL DEFENCE. and in war time a certain proportion of the ships it includes being in New Zealand waters; that is the essence of the conditions.

Mr. Reid.] The geographical limit extends far away from the Australian Colonies.

Captain Beaumont.] Practically about 1,000 miles; not in every direction, but east and west, practically about 1,000 miles; the limit to the north is much nearer.

The Earl of Selborne.] Here is the agreement.

The Secretary of State.] I think we have got the general character of the agreement; we can go into detail after ; we want to get the objection or the modifications which are suggested.

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Captain Beaumont.] The objection, if I may give my opinion upon that point, as I have no instructions, the objection certainly is the restriction to the use of the ships, and a general desire that there appears to be that the contributions should entitle special Colonies to have ships in their waters both in peace and, probably, in war; for it is not only the case in the Colonies, it is the case everywhere, that ships are looked upon specially by the contributor as a means of local defence, and it can be easily understood that when there is a limited number of ships, to divide the ships is to practically destroy their power of operating as a squadron.

Mr. Reid.] I think that the main idea in the Colonies at the time they consented to make this contribution to bring into existence an Australian squadron of that sort, was that it was in harmony with the principle then prevailing, that the Colonies should first of all maintain their land defences, and secondly, add this sort of outer line of local defence. That, I think, was the Colonial idea. That this was merely an extension of local defence quite independently altogether of the Imperial naval defence of the empire as a whole, so that that restriction was carrying out that idea, not that we were giving to the Imperial navy as a whole, but giving so as to add another line to what I might call our inner defence, as compared with the defence of the empire. The alteration would of course enlarge the basis of the contribution to the Imperial navy. It is a very important question.

Mr. Kingston.] I should like to say that I think the object of this squadron was to provide for the defence of the floating trade in Australasian waters, and I am speaking without a reference to the Act, but I think that is specifically set out in the preamble to the various adopting Acts.

Mr. Reid.] It goes all over the world.

Sir George Turner.] In the Colonial trade.

Mr. Reid.] Well, of course that is our inner line of defence.

Mr. Kingston.] And I think there was an expressed provision that it was not to remove any liability of the Colonies to maintain their existing defence.

Mr. Reid.] I think our Colony and other Colonies that adopted this Act are rather strong upon this point, although they are limited in number they are determined, and if that stipulation is removed I feel myself that I shall have some difficulty in getting a renewal of the agreement; there would be a great outcry.

The Secretary of State.] Is the feeling of the Colonies mainly that the money which they contribute towards the defence of the empire should be spent in Australian territory.

Mr. Reid.] That is the general idea. They have not advanced to a stage at which they would say, Well, we are part of the Empire, and we must bear some share of the defence of the Empire as a whole; but in an emergency

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